[sweetmama]

OK, Just when I thought that my mind was made up, someone throws me a curve ball.

I have interviewed 5 vendors for a two stage 80% and 90% efficiency system. Then today I learn that if I go with a 2 stage system that I have to line my chimney, :eek: none of the other venders said anything about that. I had heard that if I go with a 90% system that the chimney would need to be lined for the hot water tank.

Is any of this true:confused: and what then should the system cost.

Goodman 95% $4660.00 80% $4026.00 both with 10year parts and labor warranty you also get a tax credit with Goodman (don't know about the others have to look it up)

Carrier 93% $4760.00 80% $3992. 5 year parts 1 year labor

BGH Carrier 80% 6063.00 they won't even sell me a 90% because I don't have enough clearance for the piping 5 years parts 2 years labor

Trane 80% 4250.00 (r12) 90% 4850.00 (puron) plus $350.00 for 2 stage and $490 for chimney liner. Warranty varies could purchase 10 year parts and labor for another $400.00

PLEASE HELP ME! I AM BEING EATEN BY VENDORS!!

[hvac1000]

You are not being eaten alive by vendors. You are playing the lets find the cheapest company routine.The price and equiptment does not mean much. You need to find the best installer and buy from them. Equiptment is equiptment it just has different names for different companys that make it. What is the most important is that you find the best company to install it. The best equiptment in the world is of no value if it not installed correctly.
Check around for references as to the companys quality of work then buy it from them no matter what the name brand is.

[sweetmama]

You are not being eaten alive by vendors. You are playing the lets find the cheapest company routine.The price and equiptment does not mean much. You need to find the best installer and buy from them. Equiptment is equiptment it just has different names for different companys that make it. What is the most important is that you find the best company to install it. The best equiptment in the world is of no value if it not installed correctly.
Check around for references as to the companys quality of work then buy it from them no matter what the name brand is.

What I want is to know what the proper installation of the project is and don't want to buy something that I don't need, all because someone thinks that I don't know any better. I don't want cheap if cheap is going to cost me more money in the end.

Question when installing a 2stage system does the chimney need to be lined if it is not already. And if it does, then why.

A salesmen told me that I don't need to line on a 1 state system but do need to line on a two stage system. So I called Carrier to ask them and they told me to ask an installer:confused:

[hvac1000]

It really depends upon your install. I am not there to see what you have and I do not have a crystal ball. If you have NO faith in the company you are going to spend your money with find another company you can trust.

Now a generic answer to your question. It is possible that a 2 stage unit will have to low of a flue temperature on the first stage fire. This could leed to condensation and in that case you will need a liner according to code and the manufactures instructions.

NOW why are you buying a 80% efficient furnace when you can buy a 90% unit and vent it outside in plastic pipe without a chimney? The cost difference is not that much and you will save more on the gas bill. Plus a 2 stage 80% you do not need. Just get a one stage 90% and be done with it already.

[NorthernHeat]

I am once again going to disagree with HVAC1000 about equipment being equipment. Yes, a good install, sized correctly, for your home and ductwork is very important. But that Trane even at a greater cost than the Goodman is the better furnace deal. I've never known a Goodman dealer to get much factory. Because nearly any service company will sell Goodman as a budget conscious alternative. But for a Trane, Rheem Team, Carrier qualified, and there are a few more manufacturers. Require some continuous factory training to remain a dealer. When we sold Maytag we had to go to class just to buy their newest piece of equipment. So, that is my opinion. A good service company, backed by a good manufacturer is the best of both worlds.

Now about the liner. Yes it is true, by most county codes, you must! Have a liner in a masonary chimney to prevent condensation, which will end up rotting out your chimney. My thought on liners isn't going to help your decision either. Aluminum oxidizes, fast. I've seen plenty of alumminum liners rot out in less than 10 years, so how safe was the liner. I would only use a stainless steel liner in my own home, very expensive, but I don't plan on doing a new liner every 10 years.

[jake4]

I have also , bided any 80% with liner, I think the prices are fair, I would go with the company that brought up the liner issue. I have seen a lot of companies not even bring it up. The water heater does not need to be lined, unless you chimney is in poor shape, I assume your not getting any moisture on the walls around the chimney (water stains).
I would go with the 90%. I am a goodman dealer and the warranty is great, and a good product. And the eff. Can be as high as 95%.ps two stage is more for comfort, helps with the dramatic heat rise when the heat cycles.

[hvac1000]

Actually Goodman has a lower failure rate than Trane and Rheem.

Goodman has the best warranty in the industry. Ten years +

Goodman uses off the shelf parts so costs of repair after warranty are lower.

Off the shelf parts mean there is no mystery in how to install/repair/service the unit. Hence no mandatory brain washing classes. I know I have taught those classes for Bryant Carrier. LOL

Goodman as well as many other companies have bad distributors who will sell to anyone off the street causing a bad name to be given to the company.


NO one knows how long the new style equipment will last. It seems they all agree even the factory agrees that the new style equipt will be hard pressed to make it to 12 years or more. There is a sales reason tied to this if you know what I mean.

In testing at NKU it was found that most normal cause for failure at any time during the life of equipment was improper instillation and improper initial setup and service.

Did you know that most 90+ style furnaces will not attain 90+ efficiency? The reason is no one adjusts the controls after it is installed because they think they are factory set. At the factory they are set generic and they need to be adjusted for the install and environment they are in.

Did you know that just 1/2 to 1 ounce of a mistake on a refrigerant charge on the new units causes a loss of a minimum of 1 seer point?

These are just a few items we have reported back to the manufactures from our testing at the University.

All in all Goodman makes fine equiptment with no mickey mouse controls that can only be bought from the manufacturer. I have a 25 year old GUI series Goodman that is in rental and it works just fine.

[sweetmama]

It really depends upon your install. I am not there to see what you have and I do not have a crystal ball. If you have NO faith in the company you are going to spend your money with find another company you can trust.

Now a generic answer to your question. it is possible that a 2 stage unit will have to low of a flue temperature on the first stage fire. This could leed to condensation and in that case you will need a liner according to code and the manufactures instructions.

NOW why are you buying a 80% efficient furnace when you can buy a 90% unit and vent it outside in plastic pipe without a chimney? The cost difference is not that much and you will save more on the gas bill. Plus a 2 stage 80% you do not need. just get a one stage 90% and be done with it already.

I wanted to get the 90% unit but the guy from BGE Home told me that according to the code that my home structure would not allow it. Because to vent it out the back the pipe would cross over steps and that it has to be 18 inch above grade and 3 inch from all windows. :(

You are correct there is not much of a price difference and for the money the 90% would be the better purchase.

I just want to also Thank You All for your input and advice.

I am leaning towards Goodman, even though the dealer did not mention the liner, I have a better feel for him, and when I called him yesterday we did discuss the liner in detail. Also Goodman was the only manufacture willing to send me their installation manual so that I could find out about the liner. And yes their manual says that if there is no liner present or the liner is in poor condition it should be replaced.:)

[NorthernHeat]

Actually Goodman has a lower failure rate than Trane and Rheem.
I've seen many comsumer type reports that say different.

Goodman has the best warranty in the industry. Ten years +
This is a recent development trying to save thier name. Of course most manufacturers offer an extended warranty at an inflated price.

Goodman uses off the shelf parts so costs of repair after warranty are lower.
Yes, thier parts are less expensive than many other brands

Off the shelf parts mean there is no mystery in how to install/repair/service the unit. Hence no mandatory brain washing classes. I know I have taught those classes for Bryant Carrier. LOL
I have been to many of these classes over the past 20 years and never felt brain washed, or I wouldn't waste the time sending the guys to them.

Goodman as well as many other companies have bad distributors who will sell to anyone off the street causing a bad name to be given to the company.
Very true.

NO one knows how long the new style equipment will last. It seems they all agree even the factory agrees that the new style equipt will be hard pressed to make it to 12 years or more. There is a sales reason tied to this if you know what I mean.
I have said before on posts, thier aquisition of Amana has made them a better furnace.

In testing at NKU it was found that most normal cause for failure at any time during the life of equipment was improper instillation and improper initial setup and service.
We both agree installation is important.

Did you know that most 90+ style furnaces will not attain 90+ efficiency? The reason is no one adjusts the controls after it is installed because they think they are factory set. At the factory they are set generic and they need to be adjusted for the install and environment they are in.Yes

Did you know that just 1/2 to 1 ounce of a mistake on a refrigerant charge on the new units causes a loss of a minimum of 1 seer point?
So will a mill. or 2 of dust/dirt.
These are just a few items we have reported back to the manufactures from our testing at the University.

All in all Goodman makes fine equiptment with no mickey mouse controls that can only be bought from the manufacturer. I have a 25 year old GUI series Goodman that is in rental and it works just fine.

25 years ago many furnaces where stronger and better than those manufactured today. I to have Rheem Ruud furnaces in friend and relatives homes, as well as my own that we have had no problems with, outside of the occasional dirty flame sensor or hot surface ignitor, but Rheem stopped using those in '99 because of the complaints.

I don't try to persuade people into picking a brand, that is not my purpose here. The GMP series furnace is the most problematic piece of equipment I have ever encountered, simply the truth! Heat exchanger failure rate is simply to high. Wires for the limits melting and shorting out on the burner box. Vacuum switches needing to be relocated so they wont fill with condensation, and more.

I have also said on many posts Goodman A/C's are fine

I also don't understand, maybe you can help. For many years Goodman was a value line furnace. Why do I see so many estimates that are so much more than a Trane or Carrier.

There are several other furnaces I don't like. Carrier made a poor secondary design for years. I don't know any service men that think Carrier or Lennox are simple to repair. Everytime you need a Carrier/Trane or Lennox part or board you also get a new retrofit and wire harness making the repair that much more expensive. Rheem made a drum furnace that stunk. Lennox has the Pulse, another over engineered piece of junk, and I could go on.

In short I think we both agree, the best part and labor warranty available for the money is the one to buy. They all break down.

Just a note to the consumer. A furnace is actually quite an amazing machine, considering how much work it has to do, the temperature extremes they have to endure and the fact the average consumer doesn't do anything to it untill it breaks, you change the oil in your car.

[KCDave]

I just had a second unit installed for my basement and I talked to 9 installers. I listened to each and asked a lot of questions because they all gave different recommendations which drove me nuts as well. I came to the conclusion that everybody does things different and there is more than one way to do it. I did a lot of research as well and kept track of the pluses and minuses of each recommendation. I critiqued each vendor from the responses to the questions I asked to the written quote I received or didn't receive. After I decided on a vender I met with them one more time before the install and made sure I understood exactly what they where going to do all the way down to the register locations. I also had the work inspected after it was done and told them ahead of time that I was doing so. I actually had one vendor ask me if I was going to have it inspected

[hvac1000]

I have never really seen a furnace I did not actually like. I have found furnaces that are much easier to install and service.

Goodman/Janitrol at one time was a lower cost piece of equiptment. They still have units that are on the lower end of the cost spectrum but lately they have made great strides in quality/warranty and naturally in price.

Bad heat exchangers are caused by many things but more than often by poor duct work and a failure to set the air over the exchanger properly. On field inspections over the years I have seen temps far above the factory allowable temp rise and then they wonder while the heat exchanger failed.

Higher efficiency rates require thinner metal to be used in the heat X and secondary chambers. That is so less energy is used at the initial call for heat to warm the system up more quick and less heat left at the end of the cycle equals higher efficiency.
In many cases hot spots develop in the heat X due to lack of properly directed combustion air. We call it flame spread density or twisting and all the manufactures have this problem.

Many people get a bad taste in there mouth after a few problems with a warranty manufacturer and that can be understood. What people do not understand is that the furnace that was made in 2007 may not be the same furnace in 2008 even if they have the same model number. The reason for this is running changes to correct problems, then creating more problems with the corrections or the manufacturer may have found a more reasonable cost way of building the equiptment.

Nothing will ever last as long as the older equiptment. They were built like tanks and heavy like them to. The new equiptment is built like a sports car. Runs good and fast but needs more maintaince and expensive parts.

[juggallojed]

OK, Just when I thought that my mind was made up, someone throws me a curve ball.

I have interviewed 5 vendors for a two stage 80% and 90% efficiency system. then today i learn that if i go with a 2 stage system that i have to line my chimney, :eek: none of the other venders said anything about that. I had heard that if i go with a 90% system that the chimney would need to be lined for the hot water tank.

is any of this true:confused: and what then should the system cost.

Goodman 95% $4660.00 80% $4026.00 both with 10year parts and labor warranty you also get a tax credit with Goodman (don't know about the others have to look it up)

Carrier 93% $4760.00 80% $3992. 5 year parts 1 year labor

BGH Carrier 80% 6063.00 they wont even sell me a 90% because i don't have enough clearance for the piping 5 years parts 2 years labor

Trane 80% 4250.00 (r12) 90% 4850.00 (puron) plus $350.00 for 2 stage and $490 for chimney liner. warranty varies could purchase 10 year parts and labor for another $400.00

PLEASE HELP ME! I AM BEING EATEN BY VENDORS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Prices seem to be adequate,

80% units sometimes need the chimney lined and an abandoned chimney is to large for only a water heater , so that statement is correct also.


I wold like to say ,If you plan on keeping the home more than 6 or 7 years go for the 90+ efficient units,

It takes a few years to get the payback on the cost difference vs savings of operating cost .

I hope this has helped

[sweetmama]

prices seem to be adequate,

80% units sometimes need the chimney lined and an abandoned chimney is to large for only a water heater , so that statement is correct also.


i wold like to say ,If you plan on keeping the home more than 6 or 7 years go for the 90+ efficient units,

it takes a few years to get the payback on the cost difference vs savings of operating cost .

i hope this has helped

Yes all the information that I have been given has proven to be very helpful. I selected the Goodman dealer and went over the installation manual with him and he will line the chimney.

He was cracking up when I told him that I had the manual.:p

Again thank you for your help. This is a great forum