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    mozzie21's Avatar
    mozzie21 Posts: 9, Reputation: 1
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    #1

    Sep 18, 2012, 03:22 PM
    Hair Follicle Test - THC and MDMA
    Hi everyone.

    This is my first post. I recently got an incredible job offer, but found I will have to do a pre-employment urine and hair test. The urine test I am not worried about. I have not done any drugs all summer. But I was hoping someone might have some advice on the hair part.

    A bit about myself. I am 31 years old, male, Asian. I have black hair, kept relatively short, about 1.25-1.5 inches. I just had it cut about 10 days ago. My hair tends to grow somewhat on the fast side. I have to cut it every 2.5-3 weeks.

    In my early 20s I was a recreational user of weed and occasionally MDMA (ecstasy). I seldom use these days. However, I was overseas attending a friends wedding in the first week of April 2012. During a 2-3 day long bachelor party, I smoked probably 3-4 times. Also, during memorial day weekend (May 26, 2012), I did some MDMA pills one night with some old friends from college. This was the first time I had done MDMA for a long time (over 2 years).

    So - right now, it has been about 168 days since I last smoked, and 116 days since I last did ecstasy. I have been clean since memorial day weekend.

    Are my chances of passing a hair test pretty good? I've read generally these tests go back 90 days, but that it also takes some time for the drug metabolites to grow into the hair. I also read that for weed, the THC may stay in your fat, so there is a possibility THC in your fat can enter your blood, and thus, your hair, sometime after your last smoke. Either way, I am going to try to get one more haircut before the test.

    I think I am likely going to be OK, but I am kind of scared and really stressing out over this test. I am formally accepting the offer in the next day or two, and I don't know precisely when I will be tested, but I am guessing in the next 7-10 days. Anyone with experience or advice that can provide some insight - would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks!
    DrBill100's Avatar
    DrBill100 Posts: 3,241, Reputation: 502
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    #2

    Sep 18, 2012, 03:38 PM
    For future consideration, being Asian, you are most vulnerable when it comes to hair testing due both to hair structure and melanin content. However, your hair does grow slightly faster making the detection time less than for other ethnic groups.

    The substances ingested are of no consequence in your case as you are well beyond the time when hair testing could possibly be effective even if the amounts consumed were detectable at all.

    THC storage in adipose tissue is related entirely to accumulation from sustained heavy use and inapplicable to the circumstances you describe.
    mozzie21's Avatar
    mozzie21 Posts: 9, Reputation: 1
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    #3

    Sep 18, 2012, 04:30 PM
    DrBill100 - thank you so much for the input. Really appreciate it.

    Just the same, I am going to try to get one more haircut to maybe take off another 0.25-0.5 inches before the test. For sanity check and to "err on the side of caution" I am considering a trying a hair toxin cleansing shampoo. I've read most of the ones advertised are junk. However, several people on forums have recommended this one by Synergy Detox that they have reported success with use. Link

    Do you think something like this could help, or would just be a waste of time/money?
    DrBill100's Avatar
    DrBill100 Posts: 3,241, Reputation: 502
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    #4

    Sep 18, 2012, 04:45 PM
    Here is a link for you re. Toxin Wash

    Any detox efforts on your part would be an extreme waste of time, money and effort. It is physically impossible for any metabolite to be present in your hair from the above described use.

    All of my information on detox products is anecdotal. Over 90% of the self reports claim the products didn't work. There is one study, now 10-12 years old, involving a shampoo. (Rohrich)

    J. Röhrich, et al (2000) Effect of the shampoo Ultra Clean on drug concentrations in human hair. International Journal of Legal Medicine, Volume 113, Number 2 (2000)
    mozzie21's Avatar
    mozzie21 Posts: 9, Reputation: 1
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    #5

    Sep 18, 2012, 09:34 PM
    Thanks DrBill100. Sounds like the shampoo is a bad idea. I guess part of me is still a little nervous/stressed about this. I will try to get one more haircut before the test to keep it at about the 1.25-1.5 inch length and hope for the best.

    I'll let you know if I pass. Thanks again - I'm relatively new to this forum but I have been reading it all this evening, and I've seen that you have helped bring peace of mind to a lot of others on this forum.
    mozzie21's Avatar
    mozzie21 Posts: 9, Reputation: 1
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    #6

    Sep 19, 2012, 08:18 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by DrBill100 View Post
    Here is a link for you re. Toxin Wash

    Any detox efforts on your part would be an extreme waste of time, money and effort. It is physically impossible for any metabolite to be present in your hair from the above described use.

    All of my information on detox products is anecdotal. Over 90% of the self reports claim the products didn't work. There is one study, now 10-12 years old, involving a shampoo. (Rohrich)

    J. Röhrich, et al (2000) Effect of the shampoo Ultra Clean on drug concentrations in human hair. International Journal of Legal Medicine, Volume 113, Number 2 (2000)
    DrBill100 - hope you don't mind one more question.

    When you said it is physically impossible for any metabolite to be present in my hair based on the usage I described, I was just wondering why that is? Is it due to the time (>90 days) since last use in view of the current length of my hair (roughly 1.25-1.5 inches, with the longest strands being maybe at 1.7 inches)? I suspect if I get it cut again, there will be very little if any hair that will be older than 90 days on my head. In this case, if I hypothetically had long hair, it could potentially be detected still right?

    Or, is it based on the low frequency, i.e. one-time usage, in the last 6 months? I've read that depending on the thresholds used, the testing procedure may not pick up one-time usages. But again, the information I've looked at, I am not sure how accurate it is.
    DrBill100's Avatar
    DrBill100 Posts: 3,241, Reputation: 502
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    #7

    Sep 19, 2012, 09:10 AM
    Both factors, growth rate of hair and infrequent use, are applicable.

    HDT can be an effective medium for detecting heavy and frequent use of some drugs. It is proven ineffective for the detection of any but heavy users of cannabis. That relates to the physiologic properties of the hair matrix and the physico-chemical properties of the cannabinoids and particularly THC and THC-COOH the most prevalent. “In contrast to other illicit drugs, hair analysis lacks the sensitivity to act as a detector for cannabinoids” (1)

    So if you had been tested at 2 weeks there would have been no chance of detecting THC and little chance of detecting the amphetamine (MAMP) even though it has a higher incorporation rate into hair than THC. (2)

    But the clincher is the time span in relation to hair growth rate. Being Asian you have the most rapid rate of growth as an ethnic class. Hair growth is directly related to age as well. The growth rate of your hair is therefore nearer the high end. (3)

    But let's assume your hair grows slower within range at about 1" (as opposed to 1.25-1.50) in a 90 day period. That would still leave the drug molecules on the floor of the barber shop assuming these molecules had been originally deposited (see above). More realistically your barber probably took possession a couple of months ago.

    Finally, detection via HDT has far less to do with threshold than the factors outlined above. No matter how sophisticated the instruments they cannot detect something that isn't there... and that is the failure not of the testing system but the underlying science.

    1) Musshoff F, Madea B. (2006) Review of biologic matrices (urine, blood, hair) as indicators of recent or ongoing cannabis use. There Drug Monit. Apr 2006;28(2):155-63
    2) Nakahara, Y (1999) Hair analysis for abused and therapeutic drugs. Journal of Chromatography B, 733 (1999) 161–180, [p 174 contains graph of incorporation by drug type]
    3) Racial differences in scalp hair.
    mozzie21's Avatar
    mozzie21 Posts: 9, Reputation: 1
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    #8

    Sep 25, 2012, 02:04 PM
    Hi DrBill.

    Hope you don't mind me bugging you one last time. I formally accepted the job offer last week and was sent the drug testing information this past Monday. I found out that the test will be conducted by Quest and is a 5-panel Hair Test. I spoke to the HR people of the company, and told them I had a pretty busy week wrapping things up at my current job, but will try to get the drug test done first thing next week. They seemed to be okay with that (e.g. didn't push me to get it done sooner).

    Again, based on what you said over the last week, I think there is a high likelihood I will be fine. I am certainly not worried about the isolated THC use from early April, but am still a bit on edge about the isolated one-time MDMA use this year on May 26. If you don't mind, I'll just quickly walk through the hair growth time line over the last few months and maybe you can tell me if my thinking is correct. (Bear with me, this post might be a bit long! - thanks!)

    You said that being Asian, my hair grows the fastest, probably about 0.5 inches per month. From my own experience, that sounds pretty accurate. I think my hair does grow 1/2 inch per month on average, if not slightly little more. As of today, it has been 122 days since the MDMA use, 32 days past the standard 90-day detection window. I've read metabolites take on average 3-5 days from use to grow out into the hair. So if we use 5 days, metabolites of MDMA probably grew into my hair from the root end about May 31. Thus, my understanding is that these metabolites will be in the hair until they are cut. Based on my hair growth rate, we can assume that approximately 2 inches of new hair have grown since May 26, but I will count the days that metabolites first appeared in the hair from May 31.

    When I got my last haircut on September 10, I measured longest strand I could find. My barber tends to cut my hair in a way so that it is "textured" - not all hair strands are necessarily the same length. I measured the longest strand I could find on September 10 at about 1.7 inches, with most stranges between close to the 1.25-1.5 inches. At this point, it was 102 days from May 31, and probably about 1.75 inches of new growth. It sounds like, if you look at worst case scenario, that some traces of metabolites could possibly be present in the longest strands of hair I had, though the majority of my hair is probably clean. By this weekend, it will be almost 3 weeks since the last cut, and my hair will probably will have grown another 0.33 inches or so by then. With this in mind, it sounds like if I get one more haircut, I should definitely be "more safe." - so I will plan to do that this weekend. To be safe, I will probably ask her to cut it a bit shorter than normal, but not so short as to draw suspicion from the lab or make the lab want to take body hair (which I've temporarily removed for now anyways).

    This said, I get the impression I am also lucky that I am male where it is considered more "normal" to have shorter hair. Quest says a standard hair test goes back 90 days, but I am not sure how they handle your hair if you have longer hair. For example, if I were female, or even just a guy with long hair (e.g. 3-4 inches), technically those drug metabolites would still be in my hair, even if they are beyond the most recent 1.5 inches of growth. In this case, could a company like Quest still get a positive reading by testing all of the hair sample? Or would they only test the latest 1.5 inches and discard the rest? Are you familiar with their testing protocol at all?

    Finally, I found on Quest's website that their cut off for amphetatimes in a 5-panel tests (which includes MDMA) is 300 pg per mg. I saw it on this document from Quest:
    http://www.questdiagnostics.com/dms/...esting_faq.pdf

    Based on that threshold, do you know if that is something that will be exceeded by a one-time use of taking maybe 2 pills in one night?

    Anyway, thanks again in advance. I'm going to stick with my plan and get one more haircut this weekend before doing the test next week. Will keep you posted.
    DrBill100's Avatar
    DrBill100 Posts: 3,241, Reputation: 502
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    #9

    Sep 25, 2012, 03:09 PM
    It's very doubtful that the single use noted could rise to the level of detection in HDT. But no way of being absolutely sure.

    Never rely on the 90 day formula. While your hair growth will be very near the range always add 2 weeks to the top end because collectors seldom cut as close to the scalp as possible (LeBeau). 1/4 inch away is standard and that adds 2 weeks to the time line right there.

    As for those with longer hair, for instance, if hair was 1.75" it would not be trimmed back for testing at lab. Very long hair would be cut to about 1.5". It all has to do with how the equipment is set up, container size etc. Amount of solute per survey. This has to do with testing methodology as opposed to adhering to a predictive time line. HDT like all commercial drug testing is a boiler-plate, assembly line, type of operation.

    It sounds like all your calculations are on target and you should be fine.

    LeBeau, et al (2011) The role of variations in growth rate and sample collection on interpreting results of segmental analyses of hair. Forensic Science International, Volume 210, Issue 1 , Pages 110-116, 15 July 2011
    mozzie21's Avatar
    mozzie21 Posts: 9, Reputation: 1
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    #10

    Sep 26, 2012, 09:33 AM
    Thank DrBill.

    To I guess "better" put my mind at peace, I found a lab near my office (Any Lab Test Now - a national chain seems to have pretty good reviews) that will run 5-panel HDT for about $190, and will do it anonymously. Considering the job that I have been offered pays very well, I decided it is worth spending the money upfront to verify before going to do the actual test next week.

    My plan is to go get a haircut around lunch today, then get a hair sample collected by this lab in the afternoon. They told me it would take 3-4 business days to get results back to me (either Saturday or Monday). I figure if I pass this self-administered test, that pretty much puts me in the clear. Based on the timeline - 133 days from last use, if I cut my hair appropriately, I strongly believe I should test negative based on what you said. However, if for some reason I fail, I figure this at least gives me a chance to go back to my barber and ask her to take off maybe another 1/8-1/4 inch or so before the real test next week.
    DrBill100's Avatar
    DrBill100 Posts: 3,241, Reputation: 502
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    #11

    Sep 26, 2012, 09:48 AM
    Bet that it is clear. The labs have you coming and going but for your personal relief it will be worth the investment.

    When you add all that up the per-item cost of 2 little pills is substantial.

    I assume they are running GC/MS at that price? Otherwise, you can buy the test kits at a pharmacy for about 50 including psychemedics which uses the lowest cutoff.
    mozzie21's Avatar
    mozzie21 Posts: 9, Reputation: 1
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    #12

    Sep 26, 2012, 10:44 AM
    That is a great question... the website did not specify.
    Here's what's on the website
    Link

    I called the lab to ask. The receptionist did not know, but said she would ask someone and call me back in the next hour. I made sure have her ask if the methods for testing/confirmation were ELISA and GC/MS (which Quest Diagnostics uses) and, if not, what test/confirm method is used.

    Either way, will it make a big difference, other than the possible cost concern you mentioned? Thanks for pointing that out. I think, even if I could get a cheaper test kit at a pharmacy, it would be hard for me to take a sample myself. Just the same, I'd rather not have to explain to my wife why I need her help getting a hair sample.
    DrBill100's Avatar
    DrBill100 Posts: 3,241, Reputation: 502
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    #13

    Sep 26, 2012, 10:52 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by mozzie21 View Post
    That is a great question... the website did not specify.
    Here's whats on the website
    Link

    I called the lab to ask. The receptionist did not know, but said she would ask someone and call me back in the next hour. I made sure have her ask if the methods for testing/confirmation were ELISA and GC/MS (which Quest Diagnostics uses) and, if not, what test/confirm method is used.

    Either way, will it make a big difference, other than the possible cost concern you mentioned?
    All drug tests (indlucing hair) are two-phase. First is always EIA immunoassay. If that is negative then the test ends. Only if it is positive at step one does it proceed to GC/MS. 190 is steep for standard testing.

    If calling a lab ask immediately for a lab scientist. Otherwise, you spend the day going from one person to next. Even in matters so obvious as cutoff it's near impossible to get a straight answer. That's big labs, little labs...
    mozzie21's Avatar
    mozzie21 Posts: 9, Reputation: 1
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    #14

    Sep 26, 2012, 01:47 PM
    Well, I never got an answer back from the place, but I do have some interesting/good news. But I ended up getting my hair cut. My barber did a great job. She actually cut it even shorter than I had hoped, so no complaints there. I'd say my hair right now is ranging from just under an inch to maybe 1.25 inches max. This length definitely makes me feel a lot more safe.

    Even without getting an answer back, I showed up at the lab anyway. I asked the technician if their company had their own labs, or if they partnered with larger lab companies to run drug screens. They told me all their drug tests are done by Quest Diagnostics, which is great news - same place the company hiring me uses. The forms I had to sign were nearly identical to the Quest forms the company sent me. So I am assuming this personal test test will be run exactly the same way as the real test next week.

    Anyway, I'll have results on my personal test in the next 3 days or so. Will let you know. Thanks again for all the info!
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    mozzie21 Posts: 9, Reputation: 1
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    #15

    Oct 1, 2012, 01:19 PM
    DrBill - just wanted to let you know - got my test results Saturday morning (from the self-paid test). Passed.

    At least I have peace of mind now. Went and did the real test this morning. Thanks again your help/informative posts.
    b4rfd0g's Avatar
    b4rfd0g Posts: 2, Reputation: 1
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    #16

    May 13, 2013, 12:46 AM
    Hey just curious to know what the result of the actual test came back as?
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    b4rfd0g Posts: 2, Reputation: 1
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    #17

    May 13, 2013, 12:56 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by DrBill100 View Post
    Bet that it is clear. The labs have you coming and going but for your personal relief it will be worth the investment.

    When you add all that up the per-item cost of 2 little pills is substantial.

    I assume they are running GC/MS at that price? Otherwise, you can buy the test kits at a pharmacy for about 50 including psychemedics which uses the lowest cutoff.
    Hey I was looking on Google and looking for some answers the same as other people as well. You seem to have a pretty good handle on this so I was wondering if I give my story and scenario can you give me a quick overview as to what you think because I am extremely nervous.

    I am a white italian/spanish male 5'7, 160 pounds. I workout 3-5 times a week and drink a lot of water and eat decent (dont know if this has anything to do with it but I am just adding all factors). On new years eve (Jan. 1st, 2013 I took 2 pills of molly (MDMA)) and on May 10th, 2013 I took a hair follicle test. The hair on my head was short so they shaved my leg. However, because I knew this test was coming up, at the end of March I buzzed all my leg hair to literally almost nothing and let it grow back throughout the month of April till the test on the 10th of may. I know it says it goes back 90 days and I am over the 90 day period from when I took it till may 10th but I am still very nervous. I do not do drugs this was really a one time thing, and I have not done anything else since then. They asked for all narcotics I have taken within 3 months and they told me to put down dental work since novacane is considered one. I put down novacane, allergy medicine, antibiotics, and pain medicine from the dental work. I didn't lie about any of it and gave them everything they needed to know. They shave my knee down to my ankle and it was still not a huge amount of hair but it is def enough for them to get the reading.

    It is Monday, they said they would have results by Wednesday. They do not contact you if I pass and only if I fail so I'm praying to God I don't hear from them. What do you think my chances of passing and failing is? I am so nervous as this is the job of my career and future and I would die if something stupid prevented me from getting the job over one night 4 months ago. Is there anything you could possibly say based on this?. Thank you for your time and sorry for reactivating an old thread.

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