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    elscarta's Avatar
    elscarta Posts: 118, Reputation: 20
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    #41

    Oct 7, 2009, 05:35 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Altenweg View Post
    True, we can do something about the starving people, but disease, that is not of our making. Cancer is not something we can do anything about, otherwise we would.
    Consider this, for the last 20 years world military spending has averaged around a trillion dollars each year. With the USA spending over 40% of this. Compared with this is the amount of money the USA has spend on cancer research in 2008, a paltry 5.3 million dollars.
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    #42

    Oct 7, 2009, 05:42 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by elscarta View Post
    Consider this, for the last 20 years world military spending has averaged around a trillion dollars each year. With the USA spending over 40% of this. Compared with this is the amount of money the USA has spend on cancer research in 2008, a paltry 5.3 million dollars.
    But we wouldn't have to research cancer if it didn't exist. And if there was a God that cared about his creation then why would he make cancer in the first place, or the plague, or Aids, or any of the diseases out there.

    This is not a man made problem, cancer is a disease and we did nothing to cause it, but we're stuck with it and people are dying on a daily basis. I'm wiling to bet that there's not one person on this earth that hasn't either lost a loved one to cancer or knows someone that has. It's hit all of us. If God really cared then why won't he put an end to it or at least give us a cure? Why? Because he walked away a long time ago and we have to fend for ourselves.

    Yes, a lot of the suffering in the world today is because of choices we human beings make, but not disease.
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    #43

    Oct 7, 2009, 06:08 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Altenweg View Post
    But we wouldn't have to research cancer if it didn't exist. And if there was a God that cared about his creation then why would he make cancer in the first place, or the plague, or Aids, or any of the diseases out there.
    He didn't.
    This is not a man made problem, cancer is a disease and we did nothing to cause it
    Of course, we did and do every day. Scientists and environmentalists are finding out more and more each day about how we poison ourselves and the result is cancer (among other problems). Plastics alone are the scourge of the earth. And who invented plastics? It wasn't God.
    If God really cared then why won't he put an end to it or at least give us a cure?
    Let's pretend God ends cancer and AIDS and MS and all those other diseases. Then what would you do?

    Of course, it is our choices that cause disease. A month ago I was in the CCU of an area hospital. I had two bleeding ulcers and was given blood transfusions. Did God give me those ulcers? No, they were my fault.
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    #44

    Oct 7, 2009, 06:59 PM

    WG, I understand what you're saying, but I have to say, both my parents died of cancer and they lived very healthy lives.

    I grew up eating food grown in their garden. Neither one of them smoked, they took their vitamins, they believed in herbal remedies, not drugs, we took walks together, went camping together. They loved nature and all the things that this beautiful world has to offer. Chemicals, synthetics, they weren't a part of our lives and yet they both died of cancer.

    How was this cancer their fault? This is one of the many things that haunts me. My husbands mother smoked two packs a day and outlived both my parents. She ate canned meat, store bought bread, vegetables sprayed with pesticides and never took care of herself or the world around her. My parents did, but they died. My dad was 60, my mother 63.
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    #45

    Oct 7, 2009, 09:17 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Altenweg View Post
    WG, I understand what you're saying, but I have to say, both my parents died of cancer and they lived very healthy lives.
    George Burns lived to be 100, and he smoked, drank, and carried on...

    Your parents didn't have to DO anything in order to get cancer. They were residents of this earth; that was good enough. Maybe their immune systems couldn't handle something environmentally unfriendly that they came in contact with, breathed in, or ate. We don't know. But to blame God is not the way to explain it.

    Environmentalists say that some facial cleansers have tiny, nearly invisible, balls of plastic in them to help with exfoliation. When the user washes her face, those tiny balls go down the drain and into the sewer system and eventually work their way to the ocean where they sink to the bottom. Plankton and other small creatures eat them as they vacuum up the ocean floor, not realizing the glossy balls are not food. The tiny plastic balls don't get digested but just sit inside the gut of these sea creatures that are eaten by bigger sea creatures that are eaten by even bigger sea creatures. Eventually fishermen catch some of those sea creatures that are now carrying lots of those tiny balls inside them. Depending on where those balls have wandered inside the sea creature, humans who eat those sea creatures will also eat those tiny balls. We don't know yet the effects those tiny plastic balls have on humans, but, like other poisons we eat in the form of additives and insecticides and waste products, they probably don't help us much and may turn out to be another reason why humans get cancer.

    More on plastic -- A mass of plastic garbage that is floating in the Pacific Ocean and covering an area larger than Texas is killing marine life and growing larger each day.

    Frankly Green: Video: Plastic Forms Pacific Ocean Death Zone

    And plastic is only one of the environmental concerns that cause disease.

    How was this cancer their fault?
    How is the cancer God's fault?
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    elscarta Posts: 118, Reputation: 20
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    #46

    Oct 8, 2009, 02:14 AM
    As I mentioned in my last post a paltry amount of money is spent on cancer research compared to military spending. I firmly believe that we could have cured all types of cancer by now and probably most other diseases, if research was better funded. Read the link below to see where research into cancer is heading.

    2009 Nobel Prize for Medicine

    But even if all disease could be eradicated we would all still eventually die. Death is part of the human condition. So why does it matter so much what the cause of death is?

    Life certainly is not fair. Some are dealt Royal Flushes, while others not even a pair, but it is not the hand that you are dealt with that matters, but how you play it!
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    xoxaprilwine Posts: 582, Reputation: 71
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    #47

    Oct 8, 2009, 08:02 AM

    You can't blame God (or anyone/anything/situation) for all your problems or losses (if you believe in God) and I know it is hard not to be angry with him with all these things but maybe praying and trying to make the best of things is the best way to go. Cancer, AIDS and all this stuff isn't his fault - "he knows we are doomed and so is a very patient God and a very forgiving one". He knows our frustrations but again, he didn't plan it out that way, things just happen - once you stop being angry with yourself, situation and God you will find some new inner strength. I think some posts have been missed and that one which I am thinking (which I completely agree with) is firmbelievers... stop blaming God and blame Mankind.
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    #48

    Oct 8, 2009, 08:04 AM

    Life certainly is not fair. Some are dealt Royal Flushes, while others not even a pair, but it is not the hand that you are dealt with that matters, but how you play it!
    True, and so far I think I'm playing my hand pretty well.

    Yes, I've had a lot of hardship, loss, hurt, but compared to many others I'm very lucky. I have a wonderful husband, two beautiful children, life is pretty good.

    I do understand what both of you are saying, I just don't think that what you are saying points to a God that cares about the humans on this earth.

    Deism still makes the most sense to me. I will always question, because that's how I am. If I find evidence that my belief is wrong, trust me, I'll rethink it. So far that evidence hasn't been found so I will continue in my belief and continue questioning that very same belief.

    I'd love to have faith, truly I would, I just don't. One of the main reasons for my lack of faith is not the disease, the hardship but the bible. I will never read the bible and believe that the stories inside are real. I'm sure there's some truth in the stories, but I'm also sure those stories were extremely overblown. The men who wrote it were after all just men.
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    #49

    Oct 8, 2009, 08:09 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by xoxaprilwine View Post
    You can't blame God (or anyone/anything/situation) for all your problems or losses (if you believe in God) and I know it is hard not to be angry with him with all these things but maybe praying and trying to make the best of things is the best way to go. Cancer, AIDS and all this stuff isn't his fault - "he knows we are doomed and so is a very patient God and a very forgiving one". He knows our frustrations but again, he didn't plan it out that way, things just happen - once you stop being angry with yourself, situation and God you will find some new inner strength. I think some posts have been missed and that one which I am thinking (which I completely agree with) is firmbelievers...stop blaming God and blame Mankind.
    That's just it, I don't blame God, nor am I angrey at him, because I don't believe that he is the cause of all of this.

    I think you're all missing my point.

    I brought up disease not because I think God created it, but because I think it's proof that God doesn't intervene in our lives.

    I can't blame God because I don't believe he meddles in our affairs. I believe he created this world and then he walked away. He can't be bothered with his creation.

    I do blame mankind for the disease that my parents died of. Did it hurt when they died, hell yes, and it still hurts today, but to blame God would be silly because he didn't do anything to them. Am I making my belief clear? Somehow I think I didn't explain myself very well if you think I'm angry with God. Let me assure you, I'm not, there's no reason to be.
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    xoxaprilwine Posts: 582, Reputation: 71
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    #50

    Oct 8, 2009, 08:19 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Altenweg View Post
    That's just it, I don't blame God, nor am I angrey at him, because I don't believe that he is the cause of all of this.

    I think you're all missing my point.

    I brought up disease not because I think God created it, but because I think it's proof that God doesn't intervene in our lives.

    I can't blame God because I don't believe he meddles in our affairs. I believe he created this world and then he walked away. He can't be bothered with his creation.

    I do blame mankind for the disease that my parents died of. Did it hurt when they died, hell yes, and it still hurts today, but to blame God would be silly because he didn't do anything to them. Am I making my belief clear? Somehow I think I didn't explain myself very well if you think I'm angry with God. Let me assure you, I'm not, there's no reason to be.
    How can you not be blaming God when you say "God created it" when he didn't - cancer is caused by all the lovely toxins we created. God DOES desert non-believers, but he is forgiving and patient (since our lives here are like a drop of water to the ocean compared to eternity).

    Hey at least you believe in something and it works for you :)
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    #51

    Oct 8, 2009, 08:25 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by xoxaprilwine View Post
    How can you not be blaming God when you say "God created it" when he didn't - cancer is caused by all the lovely toxins we created. God deserts non-believers, but he is forgiving and patient.
    Again, I think something was lost in translation.

    My point was, if God does intervene in our lives, like theists believe, then why doesn't he do anything about cancer and other diseases?

    This is why I believe that God does not intervene, because the loving, caring God of the bible doesn't make any sense considering all the disease and evil in the world.

    I never said that God created cancer, that was an example of why I choose to believe in Deism.

    As for God being forgiving and patient, that's what you believe and it's your right, but that's not what I believe.

    So no, I don't blame God because I don't believe that he does anything for the people on this earth or against them. My posts were examples, not my belief. Do you understand?
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    Unknown008 Posts: 8,076, Reputation: 723
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    #52

    Oct 8, 2009, 08:48 AM

    I have an article concerning cancers. They may have found a cure ;)

    Cancer Man - Forbes.com

    Just saying.
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    xoxaprilwine Posts: 582, Reputation: 71
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    #53

    Oct 8, 2009, 09:20 AM

    Quote Originally Posted by Altenweg View Post
    My point was, if God does intervene in our lives, like theists believe, then why doesn't he do anything about cancer and other diseases?

    This is why I believe that God does not intervene, because the loving, caring God of the bible doesn't make any sense considering all the disease and evil in the world.

    I never said that God created cancer that was an example of why I choose to believe in Deism.

    As for God being forgiving and patient, that's what you believe and it's your right, but that's not what I believe.

    So no, I don't blame God because I don't believe that he does anything for the people on this earth or against them. My posts were examples, not my belief. Do you understand?
    I get it but you kind of confused me because first you say why he doesn't intervene but with that statement you said he created cancer. Isn't that intervention? That doesn't make sense…why would he create something wonderful then destroy it with viruses and diseases when he doesn't interfere? Oh and as per the bible - which you don't believe (and have a right to) it says that as soon as Eve bit the apple (Temptation) that the perfect world was born to sin - evils influence. Kind of like the Ying and Yang, Positive/Negative charges... there must be balance and you can't obtain that one without the other. I do agree that the suffering is horrible... that it is a test of faith but I do believe in God's promise. You believe you can control certain aspects of your life; you can't help for bad things happening but you definitely do your part to help and that is a greenie. You said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Altenweg View Post
    Why does God allow people to die of cancer? Being raped is not the fault of the victim, why does God allow it to happen? So many things that, if God really loved us and cared for us, wouldn't happen. The fact that they do happen is proof enough for me that God created the world then walked away.

    I prayed, I begged, I would have given my life, but the God of the bible didn't listen, didn't care.

    I prayed every night for it to stop, God didn't stop it. My mistake, I should have told my parents, human beings, because they would have seen an end to it. God didn't.

    Where was God then? He wasn't with me, and at that time I still believed.

    No, belief in a God that cares never did anything for me. Now I believe in myself, in fighting for myself and my family. I won't count on God because it's always been clear to me that he won't do a thing for me.
    This clearly points out that you are still angry with regression from the past. I know it isn't easy, I was a victim of sexual assault at 14 by someone who was my friend and it is horrible but it isn't God's fault for allowing it – it's that jerk that took advantage over you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Altenweg View Post
    Creation doesn't mean love. You don't have to love something in order to create it. You don't have to nurture something after you've created it. It's a choice. My belief is that God chose to create and then leave.
    I gave birth to two as well and just because I created it doesn't mean I am going to leave, even when they get older and make decisions (without me being overbearing – as I am protective too) without my consent – I can't control their decisions or stop bad things from happening or control any direction in their life but I can provide guidance just as God does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Altenweg View Post
    That makes no sense. Why would a caring loving God make us prove our love for Him by making us suffer?

    It's a test. A cruel, impossible test. No one can hope to live up to the standards that the stories of the bible teach. No living human can hope to achieve the perfection that God apparently wants. Oh, but believe and you will be forgiven. Go to church every Sunday, confess your sins, repent for raping your neighbors child, beg forgiveness for cheating on your taxes, say you're sorry for beating your wife and all will be forgiven.
    Strive to be honest, abide by the 10 commandments (which seem pretty easy) and be nice to your neighbor and give thanks for what you have. Do unto others as you would like do to you. It isn't a lot God is asking but I would like to know what it is you think is so difficult about it. Life does happen and no one is perfect – we are all born sinful and God knows that. That is why he is patient and forgiving.

    Quote Originally Posted by Altenweg View Post
    The thing is, your moral God hurts the people he's supposed to care about all the time. Is cancer not cruel? How about aids? Murder isn't a fun way to die but he allows it to happen. There are people starving every day, people that live on the streets, why does God allow them to die?
    You point out that God does not intervene; so he isn't intervening by providing us with Cancer, AIDS, Murder, Famine – these sound like mankind issues. God can't control a murder – the person committing the crime is sinful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Altenweg View Post
    God giving his children cancer is the same thing as the creator of the ant farm burning the ants with a magnifying glass. It's destruction. How can a loving God destroy what he claims to love?

    There are many things in this world that we can change, but for things that we can't, you have to ask, why does God allow it if he really cares?
    Ants are a bad example because they are not given the natural resources we have…if they are given the natural resources such as the ant hill in my front yard then yes they will survive. Same with the bird house…the bird house does not have the ability to sustain the birds…if a bird makes a nest to have her babies, she feeds them, guides them, then they fly away…every year the mom comes back to have more babies – the procreation and general process of life. If the nest falls with the mother and eggs because some kid knocked it off and the eggs got smashed – is it Gods fault for letting it happen or is the kid's? Does the God have control to stop a sinful child? No, your right, no intervention but for every action there is a consequence or result – maybe the eggs are food for another species and the boy felt awful about what he had done. If he doesn't and he continues to be destructive then we have punishment for people like that here – or sometime down the road good Karma will pay him back (Do on to others as you would like done to you). There is punishment whether on this plain or the next.

    Quote Originally Posted by Altenweg View Post
    And if there was a God that cared about his creation then why would he make cancer in the first place, or the plague, or Aids, or any of the diseases out there.

    This is not a man made problem, cancer is a disease and we did nothing to cause it, but we're stuck with it and people are dying on a daily basis.

    If God really cared then why won't he put an end to it or at least give us a cure? Why? Because he walked away a long time ago and we have to fend for ourselves.

    Yes, a lot of the suffering in the world today is because of choices we human beings make, but not disease.
    Cancer causing agents and all other are apart of the Virus family. We have horrible immune systems and maintain the position of remaining on the bottom of the food chain since we can become susceptible. The only thing that keeps us on top is the ability to develop technology, housing, roads, Cities and weapons to maintain our position….unfortunately that does not protect us from the Virus and Bacteria family. Maybe if we didn't have casual (or other forms of immoral acts) sex less people would be infected by AIDS. Maybe if we didn't develop technology with so much radiation (even Granite counter tops) and expose ourselves to it our generations wouldn't be either. I am sure you know the answer to this: Does cancer change the molecular structure of red blood cells? If it does, is that how its passed down? Becomes a gene? My mom grew up in a small country and they lived to 90... even though now they say our lives our lengthiness - I don't agree with that... we are getting sick. What about this H1N1? Spanish flu? It sucks but it isn't God's creation; it just is. I still think if God does not intervene (as you suggest) then he would not plague us either – as that is intervention on its own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Altenweg View Post
    I do understand what both of you are saying; I just don't think that what you are saying points to a God that cares about the humans on this earth.

    One of the main reasons for my lack of faith is not the disease, the hardship but the bible. I will never read the bible and believe that the stories inside are real. I'm sure there's some truth in the stories, but I'm also sure those stories were extremely overblown. The men who wrote it were after all just men.
    And you are entitled to believe in just that as me to my beliefs. I do agree with you that God will not intervene in mankind affairs... I just don't believe he left. Am I still missing the point? Please correct me.
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    #54

    Oct 8, 2009, 09:38 AM

    I don't think you're missing the point so much as you're reading too much into what I said.

    Did you read the definition of Deism that I posted in the OP? That is my belief. I believe that because, to me, there is no evidence that God intervenes in our every day lives.

    I tried giving examples of why I believe this, but apparently my examples have lead to confusion. My bad.

    Yes, the ant farm was a bad example, maybe the bird house was too, so I'll try again but I won't use an example this time.

    My belief is that God, being a God, created (with the help of science) this world that we live in. He made the sky, the earth, the trees, the animals and he may have even put a few humans on this planet he made. After he was done he walked away. There really was no reason to stay, he gave us and his other creations everything we need in order to survive, and survive we have.

    A theist believes that God cares about us, that he answers prayers, he listens to us, he loves us. To me, the state of this world is more then enough proof that he doesn't. You don't agree and that's fine. I simply can't see how a caring God, one powerful enough to create the world and everything in it, would let the people, that the bible claims he loves, suffer.

    I know what causes cancer, I know that the state of the world is our doing. The people on this earth have ruined the earth, more proof to me that God just walked away after giving us this place.

    I really don't know how to make it clearer then that.

    I think the problem with explaining this is the fact that you are a theist. When you read my posts you read them with God in mind, with the belief that God loves you and cares for you. It's hard to understand what I'm saying because you can't fathom not believing what you do. You can't understand my belief, therefore you cannot understand my reasoning.

    It's a lack of understanding because we're on two different sides of the coin.
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    elscarta Posts: 118, Reputation: 20
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    #55

    Oct 8, 2009, 10:15 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Altenweg View Post
    I simply can't see how a caring God, one powerful enough to create the world and everything in it, would let the people, that the bible claims he loves, suffer.
    Xoxaprilwine makes the following point regarding her two children.
    even when they get older and make decisions (without me being overbearing – as I am protective too) without my consent – I can’t control their decisions or stop bad things from happening or control any direction in their life but I can provide guidance just as God does.
    God "lets" people suffer for the same reason that parents "let" their children suffer when they make their own decisions as the get older. No-one accuses parents of not caring about their children or not doing enough to alleviate their suffering, so why do you use a different set of criteria for God?
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    #56

    Oct 8, 2009, 10:22 AM

    God "lets" people suffer for the same reason that parents "let" their children suffer when they make their own decisions as the get older. No-one accuses parents of not caring about their children or not doing enough to alleviate their suffering, so why do you use a different set of criteria for God?
    I've already answered this.

    If I, as a parent, had the power to cure my child of an illness, I would. If God, all powerful, powerful enough to create the world, really was involved in our every day lives, how could he let his children die of diseases that he could cure?

    I am a parent as well and yes, I do believe that my children need to make mistakes and learn from them. Some of those mistakes will cause suffering. But, if my children were about to make a mistake that could cost them their lives, you better believe I'd step in and stop them.

    I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye, simply because of our beliefs. You cannot understand my faith anymore then I can understand yours.

    I'm not saying you're wrong to have faith. If you have it and it brings you comfort then that's great. The thing you all don't understand is that my faith also brings me comfort, it makes sense to me. I've never seen any evidence of a God that intervenes, therefore I don't believe he does. That's just the way it is, for me.
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    xoxaprilwine Posts: 582, Reputation: 71
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    #57

    Oct 8, 2009, 10:25 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Altenweg View Post
    My belief is that God, being a God, created (with the help of science) this world that we live in. He made the sky, the earth, the trees, the animals and he may have even put a few humans on this planet he made. After he was done he walked away. There really was no reason to stay, he gave us and his other creations everything we need in order to survive, and survive we have.

    A theist believes that God cares about us, that he answers prayers, he listens to us, he loves us. To me, the state of this world is more then enough proof that he doesn't. You don't agree and that's fine. I simply can't see how a caring God, one powerful enough to create the world and everything in it, would let the people, that the bible claims he loves, suffer.

    I know what causes cancer, I know that the state of the world is our doing. The people on this earth have ruined the earth, more proof to me that God just walked away after giving us this place.

    I really don't know how to make it clearer then that.

    I think the problem with explaining this is the fact that you are a theist. When you read my posts you read them with God in mind, with the belief that God loves you and cares for you. It's hard to understand what I'm saying because you can't fathom not believing what you do. You can't understand my belief, therefore you cannot understand my reasoning.

    It's a lack of understanding because we're on two different sides of the coin.
    I did read the definition. So, I stand and have, that if there is no proof of his influence to you then equally there is proof of his influence to others. I am sorry if I read too much into it; but maybe that's what I meant to say. Yes of course my life experience and beliefs will be equally be as responsive as yours. I don't mean to challenge you and maybe I should stay away from religious or conversations about God - hehe.

    I don't think God made the world with the help of science - but that he created science and we are discovering it. We are becoming God - creating people from cells, destroying and giving life. Survival of the fittest isn't easy... neither is our ego (conscious or unconscious) - we are always battling ourselves.

    This sounds bad but the reality is from the moment we are born we are destined to die. It does not matter how we die - you know a lot about death and suffering just as you know about life and love and it is true. Our bodies are constantly working for us to live and even in the times of hopelessness your heart still beats on... sometimes the power of love - keeps us alive; sometimes there is no way to help at all. Some people deteriorate physically, mentally and psychologically because of depression/stress and being alone. Maybe from life experiences... and so you believe we have the power to change that... I agree, but we can only control so much and if we are persistent on controlling things then we become the very thing we don't want to be... tired, stressed and disappointed. Sometimes for some people it is easier to give up your control to God and trust that things will work out in the end and they usually do.

    I also agree that we have the power (inner strength) to change our lives/thoughts/reality by striving for it... working hard towards your goals... obtaining the fruits of your labor. So many people wait around for good things to happen but do nothing about it... your efforts are only as good as your reward. So, if the bum on the street would rather pan handle for their living expenses then work as an honest man (pending he has the ability to work) then he will not succeed... he will not have the right to say "God, why have you punished me" when in fact he could not help himself. Energy is an amazing thing... it is amazing to see what we are all capable if we just did it and gave thanks... which is what you are doing. :)

    So we are horrible... but this type of thing/discussion really stimulates a healthy exchange of idea's... this is why humans don't get along - fear even fear of being misunderstood. Some countries seek war and death to others simply because of this... it isn't God, I always blame mankind for its greed and lust for land/money/unhealthy-selfish power or material assets. Regardless, whatever gives you "personal" power or hope right? I must admit I do love these talking about this and I honestly don't think I am right you are wrong or visa versa... I am enjoying the perspectives.
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    ETWolverine Posts: 934, Reputation: 275
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    #58

    Oct 8, 2009, 10:31 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Altenweg View Post
    I don't think you're missing the point so much as you're reading too much into what I said.

    Did you read the definition of Deism that I posted in the OP? That is my belief. I believe that because, to me, there is no evidence that God intervenes in our every day lives.

    I tried giving examples of why I believe this, but apparently my examples have lead to confusion. My bad.

    Yes, the ant farm was a bad example, maybe the bird house was too, so I'll try again but I won't use an example this time.

    My belief is that God, being a God, created (with the help of science) this world that we live in. He made the sky, the earth, the trees, the animals and he may have even put a few humans on this planet he made. After he was done he walked away. There really was no reason to stay, he gave us and his other creations everything we need in order to survive, and survive we have.

    A theist believes that God cares about us, that he answers prayers, he listens to us, he loves us. To me, the state of this world is more then enough proof that he doesn't. You don't agree and that's fine. I simply can't see how a caring God, one powerful enough to create the world and everything in it, would let the people, that the bible claims he loves, suffer.

    I know what causes cancer, I know that the state of the world is our doing. The people on this earth have ruined the earth, more proof to me that God just walked away after giving us this place.

    I really don't know how to make it clearer then that.

    I think the problem with explaining this is the fact that you are a theist. When you read my posts you read them with God in mind, with the belief that God loves you and cares for you. It's hard to understand what I'm saying because you can't fathom not believing what you do. You can't understand my belief, therefore you cannot understand my reasoning.

    It's a lack of understanding because we're on two different sides of the coin.
    I think you've made your point very clearly, Altenweg. I don't say that I agree with it, but you have been very clear.

    Where I have issue is when you say that the state of the world is such that it constitutes proof (for you) that God is not involved in the day-to-day operations of the world. The way I see it, the exact opposite is true.

    Despite the fact that there is suffering, despite all the wars, hunger, strife, pain, etc. we are still here. The fact that we survived the Cold War, where two very powerful political bodies that hated each other and where both had the weapons necessary to destroy the world over 100 times each just by pressing a button... the fact that we survived that 45+ year nightmare and are here to talk about it is, in my mind, proof that there is a G-d who is looking out for us and keeping us from completely destroying ourselves.

    Israel's continued existence is, in my opinion, another such proof. Despite having been attacked by 20 sepparate nations at once on multiple occasions, despite literally THOUSANDS of missile and rocket and mortar attacks every year for years on end, despite the horrific terrorist attacks against them that were the per-capital equivalent of a 9/11 attack every day for several years on end (in terms of casualty rates), despite STILL being surrounded on all sides by beligerent enemies, despite having to deal with a UN that sanctions them for their very existence... despite all the odds stacked against them, Israel continues to survive and thrive, becoming the most powerful military and economic force in their region of the world... without having any oil resources to rely on. That, to me, is proof of the existence of a G-d that is watching out for his Chosen People.

    Interestingly, there is a story of a Colonel in the US Army that was Jewish. He went to the Army War College at West Point as part of his senior officers' training. While there, he participated in a class where a General was teaching strategy and tactics... specifically strategies and tactics for combat situations in which your command is outnumbered and outgunned. Naturally they went over some of the most famous battles in history... Thermopolae, Hannibal, Napoleon, and George Washington were all studied as examples of the right things to do. Custer, of course, was covered as an example of what NOT to do (as he should be). At the end of the class, the Colonel walked over to the General and asked him why he didn't use any of the famous battles fought by Israel. They ought to have been perfect examples of "forlorn hopes" that were won by the smaller military. The General took the Colonel to his office, closed the door so that nobody would hear what he said, and explained as follows: "I am a military officer. I am trained in the most advanced strategies, tactics and methods of bringing death and destruction to the enemy currently known to mankind. I have been charged by my superiors to teach these methods to you and your classmates. We do not teach about Israeli battles because no man can ever duplicate the impossible feats that Israel has accomplished in battle. Such accomplishments could only have happened through divine intervention. The War College teaches tactics and strategy. It doesn't teach miracles."

    Just a story, but I think it makes an interesting point.

    What you see as evidence that G-d doesn't interfere, I see as evidence that he does.

    Just a thought.

    Elliot
    sGt HarDKorE's Avatar
    sGt HarDKorE Posts: 656, Reputation: 98
    Senior Member
     
    #59

    Oct 8, 2009, 10:37 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by ETWolverine View Post
    I think you've made your point very clearly, Altenweg. I don't say that I agree with it, but you have been very clear.

    Where I have issue is when you say that the state of the world is such that it constitutes proof (for you) that God is not involved in the day-to-day operations of the world. The way I see it, the exact opposite is true.

    Despite the fact that there is suffering, despite all the wars, hunger, strife, pain, etc., we are still here. The fact that we survived the Cold War, where two very powerful political bodies that hated each other and where both had the weapons necessary to destroy the world over 100 times each just by pressing a button... the fact that we survived that 45+ year nightmare and are here to talk about it is, in my mind, proof that there is a G-d who is looking out for us and keeping us from completely destroying ourselves.

    Israel's continued existence is, in my opinion, another such proof. Despite having been attacked by 20 sepparate nations at once on multiple occasions, despite literally THOUSANDS of missile and rocket and mortar attacks every year for years on end, despite the horrific terrorist attacks against them that were the per-capital equivalent of a 9/11 attack every day for several years on end (in terms of casualty rates), despite STILL being surrounded on all sides by beligerent enemies, despite having to deal with a UN that sanctions them for their very existence... despite all the odds stacked against them, Israel continues to survive and thrive, becoming the most powerful military and economic force in their region of the world... without having any oil resources to rely on. That, to me, is proof of the existence of a G-d that is watching out for his Chosen People.

    Interestingly, there is a story of a Colonel in the US Army that was Jewish. He went to the Army War College at West Point as part of his senior officers' training. While there, he participated in a class where a General was teaching strategy and tactics... specifically strategies and tactics for combat situations in which your command is outnumbered and outgunned. Naturally they went over some of the most famous battles in history... Thermopolae, Hannibal, Napoleon, and George Washington were all studied as examples of the right things to do. Custer, of course, was covered as an example of what NOT to do (as he should be). At the end of the class, the Colonel walked over to the General and asked him why he didn't use any of the famous battles fought by Israel. They ought to have been perfect examples of "forlorn hopes" that were won by the smaller military. The General took the Colonel to his office, closed the door so that nobody would hear what he said, and explained as follows: "I am a military officer. I am trained in the most advanced strategies, tactics and methods of bringing death and destruction to the enemy currently known to mankind. I have been charged by my superiors to teach these methods to you and your classmates. We do not teach about Israeli battles because no man can ever duplicate the impossible feats that Israel has accomplished in battle. Such accomplishments could only have happened through divine intervention. The War College teaches tactics and strategy. It doesn't teach miracles."

    Just a story, but I think it makes an interesting point.

    What you see as evidence that G-d doesn't interfere, I see as evidence that he does.

    Just a thought.

    Elliot
    Excuse my ignorance, but why are you spelling God with a "-"?
    xoxaprilwine's Avatar
    xoxaprilwine Posts: 582, Reputation: 71
    Senior Member
     
    #60

    Oct 8, 2009, 10:37 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Altenweg View Post
    I've already answered this.

    If I, as a parent, had the power to cure my child of an illness, I would. If God, all powerful, powerful enough to create the world, really was involved in our every day lives, how could he let his children die of diseases that he could cure?

    I am a parent as well and yes, I do believe that my children need to make mistakes and learn from them. Some of those mistakes will cause suffering. But, if my children were about to make a mistake that could cost them their lives, you better believe I'd step in and stop them.

    I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye, simply because of our beliefs. You cannot understand my faith anymore then I can understand yours.

    I'm not saying you're wrong to have faith. If you have it and it brings you comfort then that's great. The thing you all don't understand is that my faith also brings me comfort, it makes sense to me. I've never seen any evidence of a God that intervenes, therefore I don't believe he does. That's just the way it is, for me.
    Yes but you can't control people, places or things at all times. His influence is in you, in me, in your neighbor right now, being a good person and committing good deeds, he is there to provide guidance not stop the dying or the wicked.

    What would you learn if he solved all your problems?

    How could you become stronger if there where mistakes or deaths?

    To watch someone else die sometimes gives you a reason to live... to make the same mistakes or make better ones... to feed the basic human emotion. Either our experience softens us or hardens us... but that is the beauty of choice and the beauty of life. The fact of life... people are born and people die.

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