Yes, and I had a Catholic father and a Muslim mother that didn't marry in church for the same reason! I always noticed how one of my parents was excluded at the other ones functions and it never felt okay. When I did my first holy communion my father was allowed to walk with me, but my mother wasn't. All other children, could walk with both their parents, if both their parents were present. (One child had a parent that died:-()

I never heard of Euchre, but since I live in The Netherlands, I don't think that I can join either:-).

Here are a lot of different translations, but they all boil down to the same thing and so does the Dutch translation that I own:


New Living Translation
"If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense.

English Standard Version
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

New American Standard Bible
If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.

King James Bible
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
If a man sleeps with a man as with a woman, they have both committed a detestable thing. They must be put to death; their blood is on their own hands.

International Standard Version
"If a man has sexual relations with another male as he would with a woman, both have committed a repulsive act. They are certainly to be put to death.

NET Bible
If a man has sexual intercourse with a male as one has sexual intercourse with a woman, the two of them have committed an abomination. They must be put to death; their blood guilt is on themselves.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
When a man has sexual intercourse with another man as with a woman, both men are doing something disgusting and must be put to death. They deserve to die.

JPS Tanakh 1917
And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

New American Standard 1977
'If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.

Jubilee Bible 2000
If a man shall join himself with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

King James 2000 Bible
If a man also lies with a man, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

American King James Version
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be on them.

American Standard Version
And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Douay-Rheims Bible
If any one lie with a man se with a woman, both have committed an abomination, let them be put to death: their blood be upon them.

Darby Bible Translation
And if a man lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall certainly be put to death; their blood is upon them.

English Revised Version
And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Webster's Bible Translation
If a man also shall lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

World English Bible
"'If a man lies with a male, as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Young's Literal Translation
And a man who lieth with a male as one lieth with a woman; abomination both of them have done; they are certainly put to death; their blood is on them.

The mistranslation was done centuries ago and has never been corrected. All the current Bible versions reflect that.

I thought that every translation was from the original. How do you know what the real text says?

I've done years of Bible education/study and teaching. Plus, the history about what was messed with is available on the internet. :)

Why was it never corrected then?

Three words. Dead Sea Scrolls.


There is no "original" But that's the oldest existing version discovered so far. They haven't all been restored enough to be read or translate thus far, and will be many years before they are. Many have been... but many yet remain.

Men sleeping with men, even if they are dressed up as women, really isn't something that I consider as straight behaviour BTW!

If there were homosexuals at all, they were in the closet. Nations back then were interested in having babies and getting bigger and stronger. Any homosexuals kept their mouths shut about how they felt, married women, and had babies (just like they did back in my day). If anything, the straight men having sex with dressed-up straight men was making fun of any homosexuals around. Of course, all was in the name of their gods and for their gods' treasury.

Any translation is mistranslated, if you really think about it. The only person that can translate the written word, is the person that wrote it. Any translation provided by someone else, is their translation, not the authors translation.

Another case of human beings being the problem. Ask 10 different people to read the same text, you'll come up with 10 different translations. The only person that truly knows what was meant, is the person that wrote it to begin with.

Of course there were homosexuals back then. If you sleep with another man, you are either gay or bi. But straight men don't do that, period. I really don't believe that straight men have sex with other straight men dressed up as women to make fun of gay men. You don't have sex with men, if there are also women around, unless you want to!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuch There was an ancient practise of using eunuchs for sex, and I call that gay. The Hijra's are already mentioned in the Kama Sutra, which is dated at 400-200 BC, so they exist even longer than that. But I even heard ministers say that King David had a gay relationship with Jonathan. There are Christian ministers that use that love affaire as a justification for marrying gay couples in churches, here in The Netherlands. Of course, Kind David supposedly lived after Moses and Leviticus, but I have absolutely no reason to believe that homosexuality is a new mutation in human kind, that wasn't around in Biblical times.

Like I said, pagan nations wanted to grow by having babies. If somebody was gay, he hid it and married and had babies. That's what guys did back in my day. No one talked about being gay or admitted to it. It was shameful, just like in Bible times. In fact, I dated guys in high school and college who married classmates, had children, and years later when it was safe to do so, revealed that they were gay. We'd had no idea they were back then.

I didn't say homosexuality wasn't around in Bible times. It just wasn't done or talked about. The same with autism or Down's syndrome or chicken pox or sore throats. The Bible originally, as far back as we can translate, didn't mention it.

Yes, those pagan straight men loved to have sex with other straight men. It was to their pagan god's glory, part of a ceremony.

Yes, other cultures like the Greeks had man-boy love going on, but that was pederasty.

I know, and I did what ever I could do to spread awareness. But what to do if they don't wannna hear it.

I didn't get, what you are saying here. I respect you my dear. But I didn't asked you to by heart anything in my post. And when did I say that those liviticus scriptures is not there. I just said, don't just read one section of it, read whole and read about he purpose of these scriptures.
I respect your beliefs but it doesn't mean I cant defend my beliefs! Right! :-)

I know how you feel!I Already knew it bcos, It say, ''In the last days, The Love will grow Cold''. Sigh! But still end is not here yet!

Ditto! Story of my life. I am happy I am not alone. Lol

Okey, I hope you understand by this example, bcos you like it. =
My name is Khan and I am not terrosist! You though about it, that's why you liked tis film! Right?
Now= I am Christian "Army of the Lord'' as you said but I am not... I am not the way you describes it, I am not like how you portray a Christian people to be.

And in those days... ''Love will grow cold''! Sigh!

See, MP77, we know its written there, and I know it sounds wrong, However, you have to understand, Look what Wondergirl said. About it. When I was RC I use to think just like you, why this and why that. I was confused and all messed up. Nothing made any sense, And the biggest thing was I was trying to read it in my own Sense. Without asking god to reveal its purpose. But later, days I grew up, I got more mature in age and in words too. After spending 100 1000 times looking for a way to understand, finally got it. I am not saying anything to win you or something, that's not my Job, I am just empathizing bcos I once was in your place as RC. There is no stoning and killing happening in Christianity for anything bcos we got the new testament revelation from JESUS, ''Love one another as I have loved you". Stoning, killing happens in Muslims, but I am not going to speak on that now. Even, here in US, I know lot of gays and trans, even though I don't agree with them, it doesn't mean I cant live in peace, I tell them the truth but also I treat them as I would treat any straight people. So, I am a believer of the book you hate of OT and NT, but I am nothing like how you describe. So, I don't like these lies, and accusation when people says who believes in Bible are like these, stoning and killing people.

Here I see some gay people who says, being gay is a gift from God! They are as religion as any other Christians! What about that? They go to church, they even do preaching?

OT is in Hebrew and NT is in Greek language the authentic once, so first you have to understand every words according to Hebrew and greek , way of expression, use of words, slangs etc. I had the opportunity to see the DEAD SEA SCROLL 'Ironically' in ''Science Centre" here ,there were people explaining about it and but the visitors were not allowed to touch that bcos it may damage the and it was inside those glass type thing covered. But it was good experience, gave me kind of goosbumps to really see the it in real life with my own naked eyes..haha. :)

Awe Alty! I am sure you know that those are lies, what they told you. And you know what's the truth, God is not mad at you. :) I agree with you. It's the relationship with God that's matter and knowing him matters, and obeying him, matters.

Anything in the hands of man can be dangerous... and cruel, and this is verified by history. We can debate whether the books of (ancient) man are the word of god, or inspired by god of whatever name, but in my mind the books written by men are flawed by definition.

Makes sense to me, but what does not is choosing to put men, or a book written by men between you, and the god you come to understand. You do have a choice the direction that relationship takes.

It's the nature of man to seek guidance and be a part of something greater than himself. Even an atheist BELIEVES in SOMETHING. Does it matter what he calls it?

Precious7 I responded to this part of one of your previous answers:

You assumed that I read the Bible with bias, but I really didn't, I read it when I was still a Christian. I remember talking with my father about it, who died as a Christian years later and he even said that there are a lot of cruel barbaric things in the Bible. You say ignorance leads to destruction, but there is no ignorance here. I used to believe the same way as Wondergirl does: those cruel barbaric rules, were for cruel barbaric times. But now I say, God created those cruel barbaric times, if he is all powerful that is his choice. And if he would exist, I would resent him for that. I would resent him for creating homosexuals and then allow people to call them an abomination, for creating shrimps and shellfish, but then allowing people to kill each other for eating them, for allowing forcing the victims of rape to marry their rapist, and in my own life, for creating me as an autistic person and then giving me parents that were so selfish, that they couldn't handle it at all and were really awful parents to me!

I lost my faith when I was 36 years old, a mature adult and since then, everything that I discovered and that happened to me, only confirmed it. I got my autism diagnosis when I was already an atheist, but it was only an confirmation, that if there is a God out there, he is a cruel creator, for creating me like this and then putting me in a cruel world like this, that is especially cruel on autistic people. That is why I emphatise with the LGBT so much, just like I can't help being autistic, they can't help being LGBT.

The old testament, i.e. the Torah, was in Hebrew, that was translated initially to Greek (If I recall correctly) when the new testament was being transcribed and then canonized in the 3rd/fourth century. During this time Every time a copy of a bible was made it was transcribed from an original. More often then not it was transcribed perfectly, but if a type was put in, it probably wouldn't have been caught or recognized. Then when a new bible was transcribed from that one, it would have the error. Half of it is realizing that there was no standard for copying, there is no proofing/editing/etc.

Then the bible was translated to Latin, and I think it stayed in Latin for a while. Also keep in mind that when someone powerful commissioned a copy of a bible they might ask for "clarification" in certain areas. As rigid as the bible is, it is still a plastic thing. So errors, or particular slants were put in, and they stayed in. It wasn't until the bible was able to be mass produced that the text solidified and stay consistent. That was the 16th century if I am not mistaken. You have 1200 years where the bible was being hand copied and only available to the monastic caste. Everyone else, unless REALLY rich, had a copy.

A big problem when translating languages as well is that subtleties are hard to convert. There might be different meanings that are used that don't correspond to the original text. For example in Gensis when they're talking about a serpent tempting Eve. What do they mean by serpent? Snake? The devil? An evil entity? When translating the text it could mean MANY different things. This is why it is hard to accept the texts as historical documents. That is besides the point. If you want a book that is most faithful to the word of god, go with the Quoran (Christianity the Next Generation, or Judaism - The revenge!). To it's myth the angels came down and told Mohammed, "Hey dude! Write this down! It's the real s**t!" and spouted off their holy book. It was written in Arabic and has largely stayed in Arabic. When translated it is translated from the Arabic, it is a much more reliable copy.

Getting back to the topic at hand. There are a couple things that are central to a person and their core beliefs. Faith is a huge one. It is something personal that describes how they interpret reality and deal with the world. It is something that is so personal that it affects your life from it's very foundations. When that faith is threatened you will protect it, violently if required. It is the person and not religion. It comes down to what I originally said, Religion isn't dangerous people are.

Like I told you before: I know that Christians are just like Muslims, just people. They aren't all terrorist, but they aren't all good as well. They are all individuals and there are good and bad among all of them.

There are lots of Christians that I admire and respect: Wondergirl, Obama, Bono from U2, Dr. Phil, Oprah, Nelson Mandela.

In case you missed it, I am autistic. One of the traits of autism is that I look at the world in a very rational, logical way. You can compare me to Sheldon from The Big Bang Theory, I am not as weird as he is, but I have a lot of the same ideas and reasoning. Believing in God is a form of magical thinking and I just can't go along with that, being a down to earth, rational, logical being. When I finally got diagnosed, so much things in my life, finally made sense, it even explained how I, as someone from a religious background, had trouble believing in God. If you want to know more about the correlation between atheism and autism you can read this article:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...m-lead-atheism

But really. I respect people of all walks of life, of all races and of all religions. I just don't believe in God. Just because I have a different opinion on God and the Bible than you have, doesn't mean I don't respect you. I don't know enough about you yet, to already have an opinion on you. All that I do know, is that I am getting really irritated that you are calling me ignorant. I am not calling you ignorant am I? I am only saying that I have different experiences than you do and that those led to another conclusion. I have had a lot of dscussions with theists on the internet and it all boils down to this: there is no scientific proof for God's existence. As long as that doesn't exist, it is just a waste of time to try to concince me or a lot of other atheists (in The Netherlands there are more than 8,5 million of us) that he exists.

Stephen Fry isn't the only European atheist. Richard Dawkins is also English and so is John Cleese, another famous atheist. Monty Python would never had made Life of Brian if they were devote Christians and the church did call that movie blasphemy when it came out, 36 years ago already!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5gm9hoTw6Y

Here is a part of the discussion after the movie Life of Brian, in which John Cleese tries to explain that the movie wasn't made to ridicule Jesus, but only to l stimulate people to critially think about religion.

In this clip you can see, that they really didn't wanted to ridicule Jesus in this movie, that thought crossed their minds, but they decided that Jesus just wasn't ridiculous enough, so they came up with Brian, someone who doesn't deserve as much respect as Jesus did:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ni559bHXDg

I also love Star Trek and Gene Roddenberry (an atheist) on purpose used Start Trek to make people think about things like racism, religion etc. I think that maybe Star Trek was the first atheist production that indeed challenged me to think about lifes questions, including religion. It also dealt with themes like euthanasia, homosexuality etc. I really loved those shows and all the themes that it made me think about.

Here is a very interesting excerpt from a documentary about the difference between the religious US south and northern Europe, you can see the shock that a Georgia minister has when he visits Northern Europe. And remember, The Netherlands are even more secular than Northern Europe is! I live in a totally different world than you do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuDqEGlKOus

Over the years I have spend days and days watching clips like these, so I am really not ignorant, but well informed.

Like I told you earlier, John Lennon is also one of my atheist idols. You can't seriously say that all these famous atheists, John Cleese, John Lennon, Stephen Fry, Gene Roddenberry are all ignorant.

There are even famous American atheists: Mark Zuckerberg, John Malkovich, Brad Pitt, Jos Whedon, the already mentioned Gene Roddenberry, you don't call them ignorant do you?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_atheists

Here you can see for yourself how much smart, well educated famous people are atheists. There really is no reason to equate atheism with ignorism. Not in my specific case, and not in general.