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"God is not a Christian, God is not a Jew, or a Muslim, or a Hindu, or a Buddhist. All of those are human systems which human beings have created to try to help us walk into the mystery of God. I honor my tradition, I walk through my tradition, but I don't think my tradition defines God, I think it only points me to God."--John Shelby Spong (1931-2021)
Your title diverts Spong's comment from God to religion, but maybe that was your intention which is ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
The more interesting question is about the nature of God rather than the nature of religion which most people have already figured out in the sense that they're all basically similar at their basic root.
Even the mystery of God is secondary to how humans have worked out the message of God. In other words, what is the correct way that God teaches us to live a life among other people. How we treat others is far more important than how we understand God.
As Spong says, religion points to God. I would go the next step - God points to our connections to others.
Post deleted.
Exactly!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
"In James chapter 3:6, ‘Among all the parts of the body, the tongue is a whole wicked world in itself.’ If anyone is going to try and convert someone to worship their God, then you would think that they would show others just how wonderful and loving their God is by being kind and showing their love for their fellowman. Be respectful towards your fellowman no matter what they believe, who they worship or how they worship.It’s not important as to what denomination of religion that one belongs to, it’s where their heart is. Smile, be kind to all your fellowmen and show them that the love of God is within you by your kindness and the words that you speak."
https://itrustgodonly.com/different-...20be%20treated.
Why do you accept some parts of scripture but not others? What is your standard?
How do you know that to be true?Quote:
Even the mystery of God is secondary to how humans have worked out the message of God. In other words, what is the correct way that God teaches us to live a life among other people. How we treat others is far more important than how we understand God.
Why are there so many different religions?
Because they are so many different humans.
I accept Scripture as truth and that Truth is found in sermons, poetry, allegories, non-fiction stories, wisdom literature, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
It was Jesus' summation of the commandments: love God and love each other.Quote:
How do you know that to be true?
Perfectly stated! (Welcome back! We missed you!)Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Jesus said that to love God with all your heart, soul, and mind was the first and greatest commandment. How does that mean, "How we treat others is far more important than how we understand God?" How can we categorize loving and understanding God to somehow be inferior to loving people?Quote:
It was Jesus' summation of the commandments: love God and love each other.
And in order to draw the conclusion you did, wouldn't you have to view the Bible as the final arbiter of truth? Not only that, but didn't you take the words of Christ to be literal?
Do you consider all religions to be basically equal?
Inferior? You're adding a pejorative into what was posted. Do we understand God? Nope. But we certainly can learn and understand how to treat others because of our love for them as fellow humans (not to mention love for the earth and all the creatures that live on it).Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Many other religions and philosophies have the Golden Rule as a central maxim.Quote:
And in order to draw the conclusion you did, wouldn't you have to view the Bible as the final arbiter of truth?
All religions are equal in that adherents seek to connect with that Higher Power.Quote:
Do you consider all religions to be basically equal?
Inferior was simply in relationship to position. It was not a pejorative. So the question remains. "How can we categorize loving and understanding God to somehow be inferior (in rank, priority, or position) to loving people?"Quote:
Inferior? You're adding a pejorative into what was posted. Do we understand God? Nope. But we certainly can learn to and understand how to treat others because of our love for them as fellow humans (not to mention love for the earth and all the creatures that live on it).
But you also did not answer this question. "Do you consider all religions to be basically equal?"Quote:
Many other religions and philosophies have the Golden Rule as a central maxim.
Nor this one. "And in order to draw the conclusion you did, wouldn't you have to view the Bible as the final arbiter of truth? Not only that, but didn't you take the words of Christ to be literal?"
There's no ranking involved.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Of course not, but their common theme is love, philos.Quote:
But you also did not answer this question. "Do you consider all religions to be basically equal?"
You must be asking this of Athos, not me. Remember? -- I wondered if Jesus' words had been written down as He spoke them or were perhaps recorded. *smirk*Quote:
Nor this one. "And in order to draw the conclusion you did, wouldn't you have to view the Bible as the final arbiter of truth? Not only that, but didn't you take the words of Christ to be literal?"
Of course there was. When a person makes this statement, he/she is clearly establishing a hierarchy. "How we treat others is far more important than how we understand God."Quote:
There's no ranking involved.
Interesting. Which one(s) would you consider better than others?Quote:
Of course not,
You would have an impossible time trying to establish that. It is not true of Islam, for instance, and certainly not true of Hinduism.Quote:
but their common theme is love, philos.
I guess you are not going to answer these. "And in order to draw the conclusion you did, wouldn't you have to view the Bible as the final arbiter of truth? Not only that, but didn't you take the words of Christ to be literal?"Quote:
You must be asking this of Athos, not me. Remember? -- I wondered if Jesus' words had been written down as He spoke them or were perhaps recorded. *smirk*
Going along with your train of thought, we cannot understand God. We do live on this earth with fellow humans. It is in our (and their) best interests to treat them as we would want to be treated.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Better at what? I loved the samosas Shachi brought for us to enjoy at lunch break, and Manisha's Baidi roti!!! Oh, my!Quote:
Interesting. Which one(s) would you consider better than others?
In Libraryland, for many years I worked with and interacted with people from many different backgrounds, nationalities, ethnicities, and religions, including, especially, Muslims and Hindus. In fact, the community was considered a League of Nations microcosm. To this day, eleven years after retirement, I am still connected to some of them via email and Facebook. Philos, always philos.Quote:
You would have an impossible time trying to establish that. It is not true of Islam, for instance, and certainly not true of Hinduism.
I have no idea if Jesus actually said those exact words. I wasn't there to listen.Quote:
I guess you are not going to answer these. "And in order to draw the conclusion you did, wouldn't you have to view the Bible as the final arbiter of truth? Not only that, but didn't you take the words of Christ to be literal?"
That certainly was not my train of thought. Of course we can understand God. When we read the Bible, we come to a greater understanding of Him. For instance, "1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high."Quote:
Going along with your train of thought, we cannot understand God.
That is true. By no means, however, do all religions teach that.Quote:
We do live on this earth with fellow humans. It is in our (and their) best interests to treat them as we would want to be treated.
You said all religions are not equal. Which ones are better than the others?Quote:
Better at what?
So? When Moslems flew airplanes full of people into buildings full of people, was that philos?Quote:
In Libraryland, for many years I worked with and interacted with people from many different backgrounds, nationalities, ethnicities, and religions, including, especially, Muslims and Hindus. In fact, the community was considered a League of Nations microcosm. To this day, eleven years after retirement, I am still connected to some of them via email and Facebook. Philos, always philos.
So we can place no real confidence in His words, and can therefore draw no reliable conclusions from them? Interesting.Quote:
I have no idea if Jesus actually said those exact words. I wasn't there to listen.
This is another of my favorites by which we gain a much fuller understanding of God.Even in your reference to the two great commandments, we gain a fuller understanding of God. We are to put Him first in every way, and we are to love our neighbors in the same way that we love ourselves. Those two commandments are of upmost importance to Him.Quote:
This is what the Lord says: “Let not the wise boast of their wisdom or the strong boast of their strength or the rich boast of their riches, 24but let the one who boasts boast about this: that they have the understanding to know me, that I am the Lord, who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight,” declares the Lord.
Maybe. Or maybe our limited understanding of God gets all confused in our heads, especially when we listen to a one-trick-pony interpretation of God.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
As I said in my previous post, Better at what? I loved the samosas Shachi brought for us to enjoy at lunch break, and Manisha's Baidi roti!!! Oh, my! Definitely the foods of other cultures deserve applause!Quote:
You said all religions are not equal. Which ones are better than the others?
So we damn all Muslims because of a few? In the same way, let's damn all Christians because of Jim Jones and Benny Hinn.Quote:
So? When Moslems flew airplanes full of people into buildings full of people, was that philos?
Read the entire Bible and get the drift.Quote:
So we can place no real confidence in His words, and can therefore draw no reliable conclusions from them? Interesting.
Has that happened to you?Quote:
Maybe. Or maybe our limited understanding of God gets all confused in our heads
Never mind. You've put on your evasive motif again.Quote:
As I said in my previous post, Better at what? I loved the samosas Shachi brought for us to enjoy at lunch break, and Manisha's Baidi roti!!! Oh, my! Definitely the foods of other cultures deserve applause!
No. And we also don't pretend that all religions teach philos because you met some people in a library.Quote:
So we damn all Muslims because of a few?
That won't work. You weren't there when any of the Bible was spoken or written down. Remember that it was not recorded? So how can you trust any of it if you cannot trust the words of Jesus which, you said, you did not hear and so quite naturally cannot trust? (I have no idea if Jesus actually said those exact words. I wasn't there to listen.) Doesn't that render it all unreliable?Quote:
Read the entire Bible and get the drift.
Nope. I'm in regular contact with learned Christian professionals who keep me on the narrow road.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
We'll find out in the afterlife. The answer will undoubtedly surprise you.Quote:
Never mind. You've put on your evasive motif again.
I worked with those two and others for years. Yes, the Golden Rule is a central teaching in many religions.Quote:
No. And we also don't pretend that all religions teach philos because you met some people in a library.
You were there?Quote:
That won't work. You weren't there when any of the Bible was spoken or written down. Remember that it was not recorded? So how can you trust any of it if you cannot trust the words of Jesus which, you said, you did not hear and so quite naturally cannot trust? (I have no idea if Jesus actually said those exact words. I wasn't there to listen.) Doesn't that render it all unreliable?
That's so funny. Everyone is confused except, of course, you. You need to get in contact with the Bible.Quote:
Nope. I'm in regular contact with learned Christian professionals who keep me on the narrow road.
You giving an answer would have surprised me.Quote:
We'll find out in the afterlife.The answer will undoubtedly surprise you.
Fraid not.Quote:
Yes, the Golden Rule is a central teaching in many religions.
Miss Evasion strikes again. I read this passage this morning and it reminded me so much of you. "Jesus said to them, “I will also ask you one thing, which if you tell Me, I will also tell you by what authority I do these things. 25 The baptism of John was from what source, from heaven or from men?” And they began reasoning among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will say to us, ‘Then why did you not believe him?’ 26 But if we say, ‘From men,’ we fear the people; for they all regard John as a prophet.” 27 And answering Jesus, they said, “We do not know.”Quote:
You were there?
It reminded me so much of the two of you. You are plenty smart enough to see a challenging question for your belief system, so rather than answer it, you just walk around it. Too bad. I've often felt that any belief I have which I cannot defend should be discarded. Better to find out sooner rather than later. That's why you don't see me running from questions.
Meaning what? I'm not?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Now you are, in both cases, catching on.
Unanswered questions of the day.
1. If, as you agree, all religions are not equal, then which one or ones would be better than the others?
2. If the words of Jesus are not reliable, then why do you bother to quote them?
3. Since you appealed to the Bible, do you consider it to be the final arbiter of truth? If not, then why did you appeal to it?
I don't rate them. That's God's job. My job is to love and care about my fellow humans.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
To make you happy.Quote:
2. If the words of Jesus are not reliable, then why do you bother to quote them?
God is the final arbiter of truth.Quote:
3. Since you appealed to the Bible, do you consider it to be the final arbiter of truth?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
When the God of the OT exterminated all humanity except for Noah, was that philos?
When the God of the NT (Jesus) condemned all non-believers to hell, was that philos?
The God(s) of the Bible are far worse than anything the Moslems ever did.
But you did rate them. You said they were not all equal. That is a rating.Quote:
I don't rate them. That's God's job. My job is to love and care about my fellow humans.
Unspeakably poor answer.Quote:
To make you happy.
But you did not appeal to God. You appealed to the Bible.Quote:
God is the final arbiter of truth.
How do you know God did those things?Quote:
When the God of the OT exterminated all humanity except for Noah, was that philos?
When the God of the NT (Jesus) condemned all non-believers to hell, was that philos?
The God(s) of the Bible are far worse than anything the Moslems ever did.
They all teach various truths.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
You don't want to be happy?Quote:
Unspeakably poor answer.
When? What did I say?Quote:
But you did not appeal to God. You appealed to the Bible.
1. How do you know that what they say is true?
2. I would rather you be honest.
3. You referred to loving God and loving your neighbor. Remember?
Some beliefs are: Be kind to others. Nonviolence. The spark or spirit of God is within our soul. Freedom to choose how to behave (free will).Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
What??? But then you can't diss me!Quote:
2. I would rather you be honest.
That's in many religions.Quote:
3. You referred to loving God and loving your neighbor. Remember?
1. But how do you know those statements are true?
2. Like you just did to me?
3. Nope. You plainly said it was what Jesus said. That would be found in the Bible. And since you weren’t there to hear Him say those words, I don’t know why you did that.
I know people who are members of those religions and have read up on them so I know what they're talking about..Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I was trying to make you laugh.Quote:
2. Like you just did to me?
Jesus and a whole bunch of other holy men said that. You want chapters and verses from other holy books?Quote:
3. Nope. You plainly said it was what Jesus said. That would be found in the Bible. And since you weren’t there to hear Him say those words, I don’t know why you did that.
1. How do you know your previous statements are true? (Some beliefs are: Be kind to others. Nonviolence. The spark or spirit of God is within our soul. Freedom to choose how to behave (free will).)
If you want to simply say they are beliefs, then that's fine. But to say they are "true" is a vastly more serious statement.
2. Right.
3. Back to being evasive. Why did you quote the Bible at first, but then decide that "God is the arbiter of truth"? Why the change?
Yes. I want chapter/verse from other holy books.
Quote:
Originally posted by Athos
When the God of the OT exterminated all humanity except for Noah, was that philos?
When the God of the NT (Jesus) condemned all non-believers to hell, was that philos?
The God(s) of the Bible are far worse than anything the Moslems ever did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Do you deny they are in your Bible?
No. I fully accept that they are in the Bible. God is a God of judgment as well as a God of love. It's what Jesus told us.
The Moslems are not, as Abraham termed it, "The judge of the whole earth." Only God has that right.
I would like to know where your beliefs come from. Are they just your ideas, or do you appeal to anything beyond you? And until you are prepared to answer honestly and openly, then don't bother asking any more questions. At least WG answers SOME questions. You don't like answering any at all. It will require some courage.
Here's one: Hindu -- Bhakti Yoga, cultivating the love for others but also love for God.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
So, you DO believe that God exterminated millions of human beings, and Jesus condemns billions of human being to eternal torture. How is that a God of Love?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
My beliefs are no concern of yours.Quote:
I would like to know where your beliefs come from.
My ideas come from the thought processes in my mind, just as your ideas come from the thought processes in YOUR mind. We've been over this ground before, yet you still seem unable to grasp this simple fact.Quote:
Are they just your ideas,
Why do you insist on being an a**hole? I really don't understand it. For the record, you are NOT the arbiter here of questions and answers and discussions. I know you want to be, but you are not.Quote:
until you are prepared to answer honestly and openly, then don't bother asking any more questions.
WG acts as she sees fit. She's nicer than me.Quote:
At least WG answers SOME questions.
To repeat, when you can ask an honest question that is relevant and does not contain an ulterior motive (such as discerning the best way to condemn me for a belief that may be different than yours), then I will gladly answer any question asked. To date, you have been unable to do so.Quote:
You don't like answering any at all.
Lol - using such a childish challenge to force me to answer makes you look silly. I've got a bridge in Brooklyn for sale.Quote:
It will require some courage.
Nope. Mr. Silent is going to have to start answering some questions.
Fair enough, but then mine are also no concern of yours. The difference, of course, is that I don't mind having mine questioned. You plainly do.Quote:
My beliefs are no concern of yours.
WG, plagiarizing from a website is not chapter/verse. Show me in the Vedas where this is taught. And if you can do that, then tell me if you were there when those ancient men spoke those words. If you weren't, then how do you know they actually spoke those words? After all, you doubt the words of Jesus for that reason, don't you?Quote:
Here's one: Hindu -- Bhakti Yoga, cultivating the love for others but also love for God.
At any rate, you appealed to the Bible, but later said that only God is the final arbiter of truth. But if that is true, then why did you appeal to the Bible? How do you know that is even true, and how do you know these statements are true? "Some beliefs are: Be kind to others. Nonviolence. The spark or spirit of God is within our soul. Freedom to choose how to behave (free will)." In other words, I'm asking how you establish truth. Are you saying these statements are true, or are you just stating an opinion? If you say they are true, then why do you believe that to be so?
Because something is believed within your circle of liberal friends does not establish it as true anymore than something being believed among my circle of conservative friends makes it true. That's why I generally don't appeal to the opinions and beliefs of others.
https://vedicfeed.com/5-stages-of-love-hinduism/
Sorry, pal. You don't make the rules here.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Quote:
posted by Athos ---- My beliefs are no concern of yours.
You have never been of the slightest concern to me. I find you close-minded and weak on grasping nuance. Both of those make you an uninteresting correspondent.Quote:
from Jl ----- Fair enough, but then mine are also no concern of yours.
No, it's just you - for reasons I have explained several times to you.Quote:
The difference, of course, is that I don't mind having mine questioned. You plainly do.
I'm dealing with an ill husband and post when I am able. Sorry it wasn't complete and to your satisfaction.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
And what is believed by you or me is not necessily true either. Thus, I'm interested in honest discussion.
My "circle of friends" are former coworkers/patrons who are Indian, Pakistani, Chinese, Filipino, Thai, etc.
Bye for now.
And that explains the doubtless hundreds of posts you have made in reply to my posts? Got it!Quote:
You have never been of the slightest concern to me
You just don't want to have your beliefs questioned. It's pretty obvious. For instance, when I see this post of yours, I wonder if that is just your opinion, or are you contending it is true for everyone. And if true for everyone, then how do you know it's true? I realize you are not going to answer. I just use it as an example.
Quote:
The more interesting question is about the nature of God rather than the nature of religion which most people have already figured out in the sense that they're all basically similar at their basic root.
Even the mystery of God is secondary to how humans have worked out the message of God. In other words, what is the correct way that God teaches us to live a life among other people. How we treat others is far more important than how we understand God.
Very sorry to hear that, WG. Life can be tough for sure.Quote:
I'm dealing with an ill husband and post when I am able.
Maybe they aren't so different and would see that if they shut up and learned to respectfully listen and weren't so intense on being more divine or sacred than another human.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
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