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    iamgrowler's Avatar
    iamgrowler Posts: 1,421, Reputation: 110
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    #21

    Jun 4, 2007, 07:40 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by speedball1
    Would you care to check back on the complaints we have got on air-gaps versus high loops? Gee! That's correct! We haven't got any high loop complaints have we?
    Well, given the nature of the failure of a high loop should it fail, no one is going to notice.

    Do you check your dishwasher to see if there is any contaminated water sitting in the bottom of it? Not that you would know it was contaminated, of course.

    You're correct about the disposal pumping gray water back into the dishwasher if some fool were to advise clearing a clogged drain line by filling up the sink with water and turning on the disposal. Let's see how many complainbts we have got over the years on that scenario. Oops! Can''t find any of those either.
    And what if there was a partial clog in the discharge line?

    Some of the waste water would pump past the blockage, but most of it would gravity drain back into the dishwashers sump.

    And also, we're talking about connecting the drain hose to the disposal.

    Most Plumbers I know rough in a kitchen drain with a partition cross and pipe the discharge hose into a separate trap -- Without the air gap as a tell-tale, how would you even know a problem exists with a high loop?

    The discharged water certainly isn't going to back up into the sink if the discharge hose is plugged or partially plugged.
    iamgrowler's Avatar
    iamgrowler Posts: 1,421, Reputation: 110
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    #22

    Jun 4, 2007, 07:45 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by labman
    I wouldn't call a highly trained, experienced professional an idiot for using a common term.
    No?

    Yet you have no problem with disagreeing mightily and vociferously with 'highly trained, experienced professionals' such as myself, Labman.
    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
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    #23

    Jun 4, 2007, 07:59 AM
    "Well, given the nature of the failure of a high loop should it fail, no one is going to notice.
    Do you check your dishwasher to see if there is any contaminated water sitting in the bottom of it? Not that you would know it was contaminated, of course."

    If a higfh loop fails you won't have to check the sump to find out.
    Simply open the door and all the water that was used will come gushing out.
    However, That's never happened in all the dishwashers my company's installed or has it ever been a complaint here in the [plumbing page.

    "And also, we're talking about connecting the drain hose to the disposal."
    Most Plumbers I know rough in a kitchen drain with a partition cross and pipe the discharge hose into a separate trap -"

    we don't complicate things in my area, We connect to the disposal and if there's no disposal we connect to a branch tailpiece.

    -" Without the air gap as a tell-tale, how would you even know a problem exists with a high loop?"

    This question has been answered earlier. You'd have a flood the moment you opened the dishwasher door.

    Dave, you got to problem with your air -gap? Run a high loop and forget it.
    Regards, Tom
    ballengerb1's Avatar
    ballengerb1 Posts: 27,379, Reputation: 2280
    Home Repair & Remodeling Expert
     
    #24

    Jun 4, 2007, 08:02 AM
    I would normally be out of this by now because we've got some great pros in discussion. Dave did you ever try my suggestion about restricting the discharge? Since you seem to want to keep the air gap (don't do it) you could throttle down the volume of your dishwasher power drain.
    letmetellu's Avatar
    letmetellu Posts: 3,151, Reputation: 317
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    #25

    Jun 4, 2007, 03:32 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by speedball1
    First of all thanks for calling me a idiot. Now, just what's the discharge from tubs, showers, lavatories, washers and kiutchen sinks called? Gee! Whadda ya know! It's called "gray water" as per against "fecal matter". I would be most interested in your name for it. In the meantime if you're gonna insult someone and call him a idiot get your definitions correct before you do it or you might end up looking like one yourself.
    I have reread all of the post that I have posted on this subject and I can not find where I called any individual, by name or by suggestion, an Idiot. All I was trying to do was make a point about how nasty the water is that goes through a disposal.
    SC-tbfd's Avatar
    SC-tbfd Posts: 58, Reputation: 1
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    #26

    Jun 4, 2007, 04:05 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by iamgrowler
    Usually if the air gap has failed, it is because the user failed to rinse the dishes off or the limiter on the discharge pump has failed.

    I'm not sure what the limiter on the discharge pump is but is that something that the original poster should look at?
    daveskee's Avatar
    daveskee Posts: 8, Reputation: 1
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    #27

    Jun 5, 2007, 11:01 PM
    I haven't tried restricting the drain hose yet but that's my next step. I'll post the results when I'm done. Thanks for all the input.
    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
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    #28

    Jun 6, 2007, 07:23 AM
    Last suggestion Dave,

    This shouldn't be a question about what's better, a air-gap or a high loop, this should be about what works for you. You've fought your air-gap about as far as you can take it. Choking or restricting the discharge by clamping the hose is a last ditch effort and will set up back pressure in the pump. I don't know if this will be harmful to the unit or not since we have never been faced with your problemin in our area but I do know restricting the discharge of anything can't be beneficial.
    If everything else fails with your air-gap then remove it, place a chrome cock hole cover or a soap dispenser in its place and run a high loop on the discharge hose. Run the loop as high as it will go under the cabinet and secure it with a pipe strap,(see image) and put this all behind you. This is not to say the other "pro air-gap" experts are wrong. This is about getting your problem solved in the fastest, easiest way and I believe a high loop may be the answer. Good luck, Tom
    ballengerb1's Avatar
    ballengerb1 Posts: 27,379, Reputation: 2280
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    #29

    Jun 6, 2007, 10:55 AM
    Hear, hear Speedball. Codes are important, don't get me wrong, but they are not absolute physical laws. At the time my home was built air gaps were not required but they are now. Its just a new law to avoid worst case scenarios not the day to day issue. Where I live drywall was not code until 1975, does that mean it was unsafe? Some codes are driven by lobby groups and unions and are not necessarily mandated by physical laws. Many DIY repairs are not always code but improvisation is sometimes needed when the original up to code part fails.
    iamgrowler's Avatar
    iamgrowler Posts: 1,421, Reputation: 110
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    #30

    Jun 6, 2007, 07:13 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by ballengerb1
    Hear, hear Speedball. Codes are important, don't get me wrong, but they are not absolute physical laws.
    I'm reminded of the arguments I've had with architects, designers and homeowners over the years:

    'But Plumbing Codes are arbitrary and they certainly don't apply to me'.

    My usual pat response is, "They most certainly are not arbitrary and they most definitely do apply to you."

    Period.

    Quite frankly, I'm appalled by yours and Tom's answers to this problem, Dave.

    If he lived in the 90% of the country where high loops are accepted, then I wouldn't have word one to say on the subject -- But to advise someone to defy the prevailing code in their community is just wrong.

    Period.

    At the time my home was built air gaps were not required but they are now.
    I don't know if you're still out in the field or not, but the old policy of 'Grandfathering' in older installations that are no longer up to code is a thing of the past -- The general consensus is that if you open it up (expose it to view), you must bring it up to code.

    Period.

    Its just a new law to avoid worst case scenarios not the day to day issue.
    It isn't, actually.

    If you read the code book Tom is operating from -- A "highloop" is an acceptable alternative (under the IPC and the SPC) to an approved airgap -- Meaning that an airgap is an additional accepted alternative.

    Most high end Plumbers in jurisdictions covered by the IPC and the SPC opt for counter mounted airgaps or Johnson Tee's -- In the unwritten rules of Plumbing, 'Cover Thine Own Butt' is in the top 5.

    Many DIY repairs are not always code but improvisation is sometimes needed when the original up to code part fails.
    Wrong.

    It isn't the code that has failed -- It is something in either the installation or the appliance that has failed.

    Tom has stated that there are a number of posts regarding the failure of counter mounted airgaps -- I'm not going to dispute this, because I can visualize installation snafu's where this might occur, but in over twenty years of owning and running a Plumbing company, I have never once had this happen to any of my installations.
    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
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    #31

    Jun 7, 2007, 10:41 AM
    Growler, Growler, Growler,

    The problem with you younger, "by the book" plumbers is that the "book" never tought you to improvise or think outside the box. Everythings black and white to you. "If it ain't code, it ain't right". You appear to worry more about code then you do about results. Did you even take the time to read my last post. Let's get Daves dishwasher workingt for him and quit
    Hassling about the pros-and cons of air-gaps. He's tried three air-gaps with the same result. I gave him a solution. Do you have anything better??
    labman's Avatar
    labman Posts: 10,580, Reputation: 551
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    #32

    Jun 7, 2007, 12:21 PM
    Pumps have a pressure/volume curve. If you increase the back pressure by using a restriction, the volume delivered will decrease. It is easier to destroy a pump with too low of back pressure than too high. Try the C-clamp. If it works, go to something more permanent. Even a partial kink in the hose might do. Keep it out of sight so nobody fixes it. If I were going to live in the house, I would have a high loop installed long before this. When you sell it, it may be inspected and you may be presented with the bill to fix all the code violations.

    I point out mistakes, which upsets some people when a non plumber catches theirs, but don't call people idiots here.
    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
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    #33

    Jun 9, 2007, 11:47 AM
    I might just have cleared up the mystery of why his air-gap clogs up.
    I went over to the appliance page and picked some brains. It seems that mid and upper level dishwashers have grinders that grind the food up so it won't clog a air-gap. The lower end ones use the pump to grind the food particles. If Dave had a faulty grinder or didn't wash the plates good this could be the reason. This is not a solution, ( I gave that in a earlier post) but just one possible explanation. Regards, tom
    daveskee's Avatar
    daveskee Posts: 8, Reputation: 1
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    #34

    Jun 9, 2007, 09:55 PM
    I don't understand how a faulty grinder or pump would result in the increase in water pressure draining from the dishwasher. Speedball1, could you explain that to this novice?
    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
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    #35

    Jun 10, 2007, 06:41 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by daveskee
    I don't understand how a faulty grinder or pump would result in the increase in water pressure draining from the dishwasher. Speedball1, could you explain that to this novice?
    Sorry Dave, My bad! In the confusion over which was the best, air-gap or high loop, I lost track of your original complaint and was thinking the air-gap overflowed due to blockage in the dischage. I apologize for my error. However, there have been only two solutions offered. One was to choke down on the volume entering the air-gap and I'll repeat mine. If everything else fails with your air-gap then remove it, place a chrome cock hole cover or a soap dispenser in its place and run a high loop on the discharge hose. Run the loop as high as it will go under the cabinet and secure it with a pipe strap,(see image) and put this all behind you. This is not to say the other "pro air-gap" experts are wrong. This is about getting your problem solved in the fastest, easiest way and I believe a high loop may be the answer.
    If restricting the flow to the air-gap doesn't help I would give some serious thought to my solution. Anyway you go I wish you the best of luck. Tom.
    El Glom-o's Avatar
    El Glom-o Posts: 3, Reputation: 2
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    #36

    Nov 23, 2007, 01:09 PM
    I found this web site while trying to find help with the very same problem described by daveskee. Did he ever get his trouble resolved?

    It looks to me like the air gap that came with my dishwasher is just a poor design that doesn't have a chance of properly draining the water at the kind of pressure and volume as delivered by the dishwasher pump. I tried looking at replacements on-line but all of the photos show them with decorative covers in place so I can't see if the gap itself looks any better than the one I have. Also, daveskee mentioned going through several replacements without success, so I'm thinking that these air gaps are all pretty similar and replacing mine probably wouldn't solve anything. But does anyone have a suggestion for a particular model, should I decide to go that way?

    I've found the air gap/high loop controversy interesting. I don't know what the Baltimore City code says about them.

    Thank you.
    Mark Piper's Avatar
    Mark Piper Posts: 1, Reputation: 1
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    #37

    Jan 1, 2008, 07:16 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by daveskee
    I have had the usual symptomatic water overflow out of the dishwasher air gap on the top of my sink countertop. After replacing the countertop with granite and relocating the air gap hole, I replaced the hose from the air gap to the disposal and insured there was no blockage in the disposal and new hose. Yet I have so much water pressure coming from the dishwasher that it shoots out of the air gap vent. I confirm the water is draining into the disposal from the air gap vent but it seems there is so much water or the pressure is so great the system can't handle the amount of water being discharged and backs up into the air gap. I've even looped the extra amount of hose from the dishwasher to the air gap above the disposal drain height to see if that would solve this. It did seem to take some of the pressure off of the water coming out of the air gap but it still spews out. After searching and reading all the posts regarding this usually common issue, I'm at a loss. Anyone have any ideas?
    Just a guess but some times small chicken bones or tooth picks can get stuck in the dishwasher discharge hose. They are to long to turn the corner in the air gap but can fall back down the hose and out of sight, then come right back up and plug a new air gap.

    If you pop the top off the air gap and remove the top plug. With the dishwasher set on discharge close the door on the dish washer for about one second... what ever is in the hose will come out the top of the air gap. Put it back together and test it.

    Just an old handyman but I have seen it three or four times over the years.

    Happy trails
    Mark
    speedball1's Avatar
    speedball1 Posts: 29,301, Reputation: 1939
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    #38

    Jan 2, 2008, 05:47 AM
    I'm thinking that these air gaps are all pretty similar and replacing mine probably wouldn't solve anything. But does anyone have a suggestion for a particular model, should I decide to go that way?
    ElGlom-0, I have a solution for you that has worked without complaints or call backs in my area for years. Remove the old air gap and install a chrome cock hole cover in its place. Now run a high loop air gap by replacing the discharge hose and looping it up as high as it will go in the cabinet and securing it with a pipe strap 0or band iron. You may now connect to the disposal and forgrt about any more counter top back ups. Good luck, Tom
    adrift32's Avatar
    adrift32 Posts: 1, Reputation: 1
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    #39

    Feb 5, 2008, 03:34 PM
    I have read the lengthy and heated answers and comments to this question.

    I have just returned from a client who has a Jen-Air DishWasher that "smells like dirty water".
    I am having the same problem as Daveskee and El Glam-O.

    The installation of an air-gap allows water to erupt from the air-gap during the pump/drain cycle of the DW. And, sorry Speedball1, but draining a sink-full of water from the single-basin sink with disposal (prior to air-gap installation) allows water to return up the DW drain line and back into the disposal. This may well be due to a plumbing vent problem "downstream" from the disposal, but regardless, it seems physically impossible for this to happen.

    I agree with Daveskee that the problem does indeed seem to be that the DW pumps water too fast.. . at least faster than the hose downstream from the air gap can allow to pass.

    Please, any suggestions or further insight into how to remedy the situation would be greatly appreciated by myself, Daveskee, El Glam-O, and the hot Russian MILF who needs me to fix her DW.

    And please, Daveskee and I have both made certain that the drain lines are clear and un-kinked, the air-gaps are clean and/or new, the disposal KO has been KO'd etc, etc.

    To daveskee: As a person who has remodeled and sold and repaired, I'd suggest you swallow the moral dilemma and go with Speedball1's answer: high-loop, hide the loop, and wait for the home inspection team to complain. If they do, offer the buyer the $ for the repair and nothing more. This "interesting puzzler" could cost you a sale.

    Thanks for reading. I'll be interested in any further brainstorming.
    tsainta's Avatar
    tsainta Posts: 1, Reputation: 1
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    #40

    Jun 25, 2008, 09:41 AM
    Here's something (yet another thing) I learned by screwing up and messing around until I finally got it right. In the top of an air gap is an insert with two holes. Inside the air gap are two divisions. One division connects to the inflow side of the air gap (from the dishwasher) and the other connects to the outflow side (to the disposal). If the top insert is put in wrong, water will flow from it when the dishwasher empties. For correct operation of the air gap both holes in the insert need to be positioned over the outflow division of the air gap.

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