I wrote my own letter to myself tonight, titled "my son-in-law is a putz." He's got a big "man-child" thing going on and it's heart-wrenching to watch our daughter be ground down, no spiritually pulverized, by his childishness. No, he doesn't give my husband or I the time of day - very disrespectful - but that's the least of it. He doesn't support my daughter or their two little boys and its very sad to watch our daughter be the chief cook, bottle-washer, and bread winner. We are Christian people and we're trying to see the good in all of this - honestly! Sometimes, it just gets so discouraging and heart-wrenching to watch our daughter be so manipulated! She's hauling around this 12-year-old, who, unfortunately, acts like the only one he truly loves is himself. Nothing we do pleases him; our daughter gets the same treatment also, in addition to the constant criticism he heaps on her - we know this because he does it openly in front of everyone!! <Big Sigh> Got any suggestions? It's like he's allergic to responsibility!

I feel your pain. It's a very difficult situation to be in. I am going through the same thing with my son-in-law and I'm just about to throw in the towel. My older grandson(3y/o) adores me but I know in time that this will change. My son-in-law with his malicious lies will poison his mind against me. It's very painful, but it is a no win situation that I wouldn't wish on anyone.
I am dreading the holidays this year. My husband and I will probably be alone. So sad we gave our daughter so much. Maybe that's the problem.

Languishing,

This is a very old thread that you have responded to.

Why not post your response, as a new question. You will get more answers and opinions that way.

I hope you do.

Hi Languishing

I understand completely how you feel, right now, because I've been there, myself.

Please don't ever give up hope on your precious grandson, or walk away from your relationship with him or your daughter because, if you do, your son in law wins... and if he does, he gets to deprive his own wife and son (your daughter and grandson) of their right to have a good relationship with you - something that he has no right to do.

Our relationship with our daughter and grandchildren is still not as close as we'd like it to be, but it has improved, as a result of our determination to prevent our daughter's weakness, where her husband is concerned, from destroying our relationship with her and our two precious grandchildren.

We're currently moving on from the hurt that comes from suffering the indignity of experiencing a daughter's lack of loyalty and respect... but maintaining our rage in relation to our son-in-law's selfish ways... and as a result, finding ways to get around them.

We initially backed-off for a while... to give our daughter a bit more space (and some time without us in her life)... but have continued to maintain regular contact with her and our grandchildren, by popping in to visit them from time to time (after phoning first), while our son-in-law is at work.

We've also arranged to get together with our daughter and grandchildren, at a neutral venue, when our son in law is able to be present too (only once, so far), primarily to ensure that our son-in-law can't accuse us of deliberately avoiding him, or disrespecting his place as head of his own household.

The simple truth of the matter - in our case - is that our son-in-law is a spoiled, selfish, "Mummy's Boy", who has been conditoned, by his narcissistic mother, to believe that he's "entitled" to treat his "in-laws" in ways that he wouldn't like to be treated himself. That narcissistic (self-absorbed) mother has also succeeded in manipulating our love-struck daughter, by stroking her ego, while working from behind the scenes, to control her life, through her devoted son.

I've reached this conclusion about the type of people that we're up against, after reading an article which described "Narcissists" as being the type of people who work through others, to destroy the lives of anyone who they perceive to be a threat to their own supermacy. I've also been reading a book entitled, "Disarming the Narcissist", which was written by Wendy T Behary, LCSW, in conjunction with Daniel J Siegel, MD and Jeffrey Young Ph.D. with a view towards getting a better understanding of the causes of and motivation behind narcissistic behavior, as well as the necessary skills to prevent it from doing any more harm to our relationship with our daughter and grandchildren.

As a result, I've realised that the best way for my husband and I to have the best possible relationship with our daughter and grandchildren is to ignore any preferential treatment that our daughter's in-laws might be receiving, and continue to concentrate on ensuring that the limited time that we have with our daughter and our precious grandchildren leaves them, as well as us, with the best possible memories.

And... last night, just after we arrived home from spending some time with our daughter and grand children, I received a text message from my daughter to say that our 2 1/2 yr old grand daughter had insisted upon wearing the new red shoes that she'd wanted... and I'd bought for her that day... to bed. That response from my grand daughter... and the joy that I experienced from having my 6 month old grandson grinning back at me, and blowing raspberries at me, while I was blowing kisses onto his cheeks, while cuddling him, are two very precious memories that nobody will ever be able to take away from me.

So, please don't give up on your grandson... because, even though he's not old enough to tell you himself - yet, he does appreciate having someone as special as you in his life, and that's why you have a good relationship with him right now. So, keep working on it.

These are awful situations, and approaching the man is not the solution. Men are going to do whatever they want, are you serious! My daughter lives out of state, and she never calls me. When I call they do not answer the phone, and if I leave a message they do not return my calls. I rushed myself to the emergency room because of am appendicitis attack, so I called my daughter to let her know that I was in the hospital. I left her three messages that I was in the hospital. After three days in the hospital she finally called me back! She has become a stranger to me, did I give birth to her? After she met her husband she has become the most selfish, self-centered person. And he treats me terribly, and she could care less about it. My last visit in April would be my last visit, although I didn't share that with her. I cried my entire visit, he yelled at me every day. His temper can go from 0-10 in a matter of minutes, for no reason. And he screams at my 2 year old grandson constantly, for no good reason. He is gone all of the time, he is so important! In his mind. He is so jealous of my daughter and I, that fact that we laugh together. He went to law school in San Diego so he believes that he is the smartest man on earth, and that no one is as smart as him. And he hates my daughter's family, all of us. My daughter's father died a year ago, and she has not spoken to any of her family since then. She is estranged from all of her father's family, and her husband loves this! Now my daughter doesn't answer her phone when I call, she doesn't return my phone calls. She doesn't call me. He has her all to himself in another state, and she only sees his family. They have one child 2 years 5 months old, and one that is due in March 2011. Sadly I will most likely never see the second one. I can't bear to be around this man, he is so abusive to me. How my daughter can stand to be around someone so awful I can not understand, but it is her husband. I am just her mother, and the end of her family. She doesn't really need me in her life, she is now 25. She is a grown woman, and now she has her family. She no longer needs her mother, she has his mother. She is making it crystal clear to me that I am no longer needed in her life, and so I am pulling away from her. And he is very happy about this, he couldn't care less about it. I guess that when you really love someone you just let them go.

You want to believe that you did a great job raising your child/children, the truth is that you did. I think that we just did too much for them, and they just didn't appreciate everything. Please, thank you, yes Mam. The simple polite things people say to each other, what happened to our children? Providing them with gifts for birthday's and holidays, and just because we love them. How many of you out there receive anything for your birthday, mother's Day, Christmas, or any other holiday from your children? I am just wondering, because I do not receive anything. Where is our reciprocity, it should be there as well. I am just saying.

Hi binks58

I empathize with you and totally understand the hurt, anger and frustration that you're feeling, right now, as a result of how you've been treated by your daughter and son-in-law. However, I also believe that the comments that you've made about your son-in-law's temper going "from 0-10 in a matter of minutes", and him screaming at your 2 year-old grandson constantly, for no apparent reason, provide evidence that he could be a controlling bully... and possibily even a narcissist... and if he's a narcissist, you're correct in believing that you'd be wasting your time by trying to talk to him about your feelings.

You've also mentioned that your daughter is currently pregnant, so I would ask you to consider the possibility that she might be suffering from pre natal depression - which wouldn't be surprising, given the added stress that she's put herself under, as a result of having alienated herself from all the members of her own family, in order to please her man.

I believe that you know, as well as I do, that such behavior on our daughter's part wouldn't be considered necessary, or appropriate, under normal circumstances, and it was that disturbing fact in itself, which helped me to push aside the hurt and anger that I felt, and start looking for a way to get around our selfish and controlling son-in-law.

My husband and I sought the help of a trained professional, who advised us to stop beating ourselfes up (i.e. blaming ourselves) for the situation that was not of our creation... and reminded us that we can only be held responsible for the way in which we handle our side of any relationship.

I also tried to focus my thoughts less upon myself and more on what my daughter might be going through, by trying to imagine what it must be like for her to be married to, and expecting a second baby to such a selfish and controlling mummy's boy... and that's when the mother in me took over, again... and I started doing some research, with a view towards finding a way past the horrid situation that he and his mother had played a significant part in bringing about.

You are absolutely right about our daughters being grown women, who are quite capable of living their own lives, without the constant involvement of us in their lives. However, even though our daughters might believe that they know it all, the fact that they've become estranged from us, and other significant members of their own family, as a result of their desperation to please some self-absorbed man, proves that they don't know as much as they think they do - doesn't it?

So, I honestly believe that our blindly foolish (and currently selfish) daughters, and our precious grandchildren do need us, older and wiser "grand" mothers, to continue to be there for them throughout the good times and the bad. After all, who else is going to teach them the meaning of unconditional love, by setting the perfect example of it, if we don't?

I also still remember my own experience of being pregnant with our problem daughter, when our first was only 2 years old, and how anxious I was, at that time, about being a good wife and mother. Fortunately, I didn't have have the added burden of a selfish and controlling husband and mother-in-law to contend with, or a mother who was trying to cling on to me when I didn't feel as if I really needed her.

So, you're absolutely right when you say that sometimes, loving someone means that you have to let them go. However, I believe that there's a significant difference between letting our children go, so that they can live their own lives, in their own way, and walking away from them, and our grandchildren completely.

I do understand how you feel about your daughter living so far away from you, too, because our daughter might as well live in a different state from us, because she lives 3 hours away from us (by car). So, in order to give her and her husband a bit more of their own space, we've found a reasonably-priced (and comfortable) motel (with kitchen facilities) to stay in when we visit their part of our state. We've also made the most of the extra space that has given us, by doing some of the touristy things, while in town... and phoning our daughter (while her husband is at work), to let her know that we're in town, doing our own thing, for a couple of days, and that we'd like to catch-up with her and our grandchildren, for a couple of hours, while we're in the area, if possible.

On two occasions, recently, taking that course of action has resulted in us being able to catch-up with our daughter and grandchildren, while our son-in-law was at work... but we've been very careful not to make it too obvious that we've been deliberately avoiding him.

So, although I can't guarantee that the strategies that my husband and I have used will work in your particular case, I've communicated them to you in the hope that doing so will help you to realize that you are far from being alone in having such problems with your daughter, and that you do have what it takes to get around those problems, while being kind to yourself, and your daughter, at the same time.

I am so glad that this discussion has been brought up again. We have been dealing with the same problem for about 5 years now and it has only gotten worse for us. We have decided that living in the same town is so painful for me because our time with the grandkids is being controlled to a few hours a week, that we are going to try to do something for ourselves. We are buying a house in AZ for the winter months and have a house at a lake about 100 miles away for the summers. That will make my daughters life much easier if she doesn't have to deal with us anymore than maybe once a year. I realize you cannot run away from your problems, but you can certainly displace yourself from them if possible. Maybe she will be happier if we just leave her and her little cult like life alone. She seems to be happy having her mother in law and husband taking care of her every whim, so two's company and three's a crowd I guess. It's such a sad time for us when it should be a happy time. Please keep your thoughts coming. I always appreciate some helpful advice. Glad to know it isn't just us. Sometimes it appears we are the only ones having this problems. Thanks again.

Hello again, Madhatter

I'm sorry to hear that the situation between you and your daughter hasn't improved, but pleased to hear that you've found the strength and courage to move on with your own life, in other areas.

I seriously doubt that our relationship with our daughter is ever going to be the same as it was, either, but at least we will both be maintaining some contact with our precious grandchildren... and hopefully, seeing us on a less frequent basis than their other grandparents, will help to make their experience and memories of spending time with us, far more exciting and special.

As for our daughters... well, I guess they're going to have to lose something (or someone) that they've become so used to taking for granted, before they'll wake up to their own blind selfishness.

Keep believing in yourself.

I want to thank you for your empathy and wonderful advice. I felt so much better after reading your posts.I feel as though you really have an understanding of this. This is a very difficult problem for me to discuss with any of my friends. Thanks.

Hello again, Languishing

I'm genuinely pleased to hear that my response has helped you to feel better and I sincerely hope that you'll keep believing in yourself, and your ability as a mother. After all, we mothers can only do what we believe is best for our children, and grandchildren... and if that isn't good enough for them, then that's their problem - not ours. I sincerely believe that in your case, as in mine, your daughter's love for her man has blinded her to his selfish and manipulative tactics... and/or that she's putting so much effort into making him happy, and her own family unit in tact, that she doesn't have much time, or effort left to put into her relationship with you. So, even though you have not yet been able to talk about having a less than ideal family situation with your friends, at least talking about it here has helped you to realize that you are far from being alone with such a problem. So please keep hanging in there... and believing in yourself... and in your own ability to get around your problematic son in law.

Thank you so much for your very kind words. I had to stop calling because she doesn't answer my calls, and she doesn't return my calls. I cry most days, it is very painful. Just one day at a time they say.

My second grandchild is due March 2011, and I am not sure when or if I will even be asked to see it. I can't get excited when I am alienated from her life. It is so strange, sad, and it makes me so angry at times. But it is her life, not mine.

Hi Binks58

I'm happy to help you in whatever way that I can because I understand that the anxiety and devastation that you're feeling right now, and the tears that you're shedding as a result, are a natural consequence of the helplessness that you feel over the perceived loss of your daughter and grandchildren. I know that, because during the first three months of this year, I was going through the same experience (grief)... and it got worse, before it got better. So, hang in there... and keep believing in yourself and remembering that you're far from being the only mother in the world that this has happened to... and that nobody can take away your belief in yourself unless you let them.

I'd also suggest that you draw strength from Jake 2008's earlier comments on page 2 this site, about some young wives being prepared to accept "his family as coming as part of the package"... and going along with what he and 'his' parents dictate "out of fear of facing the consequences of saying No to them" because, although Jake 2008 wasn't responding to our specific situations, I believe that he's hit the nail on the heat when it comes to the situation that our daughters have put themselves in, as a result of being a bit too eager to please their men.

Our second grandchild (boy) was born on 11 March, and we found out about his premature birth, about 3 weeks later, when one of our closest friends made contact to congratulate us on being grandparents for the second time. That friend had heard about our grandson's birth from another friend, who'd heard about it from her son, who'd received a text message, announcing it, from our daughter. That friend, who is my husband's closest friend, and one of our daughter's Godparents, shared our outrage... and became immediately supportive of us because, like us, he knew that we hadn't done anything to our son in law, or our daughter, to deserve to be shut out like that. However, at our request, he didn't make contact with our daughter to let her know how he felt about the way in which she was shutting us out.

I'd already started to talking to some of my more trusted friends... and even some of my daughter's friends, about being cut-off by her... in response to being asked questions about how her second pregnancy was going. However, as a result of reading some very good articles about how to deal with narcissistic behavior, I knew better than to complain about my daughter, or son-in-law, to any of their friends. So, I simply told their friends how concerned my husband and I were about our daughter, and how much at a loss we were to understand why she'd have found it necessary, or appropriate, to cut herself off from most of the members of her own family... and, in response, a couple of her friends suggested that her husband could be the main cause of our problems because they'd noticed a rift developing in their own relationship with our daughter since she became involved with him, too.

One of my daughter's friends, and a work colleague of mine, also suggested that the latest about of our daughter's hostility towards us might have come about as a result of pre-natal depression, which can sometimes be an added consequence of being in a controlling relationship. So, not wanting to add to our daughter's problems or stress levels, my husband and I decided to back-off until she'd had time to get the new baby home and settled into his routine, before having another go at rekindling the relationship. In the meantime, we occupied ourselves with activities with friends who helped us to maintain our self esteem, and relied upon the reliable support and persistence of our elder daughter, who'd been kept just as much in the dark as us in relation to the birth of her nephew, but eventually had more luck than we did in making contact with her sister. We also discussed our situation with a couple of the younger members of our extended family, who lived closer to our daughter and son in law, and asked them to help by keepng a watchful eye on our daughter, and let us know if they thought our help might be needed.

It was actually fate... and the attendance at the death of an elderly relative that eventually brought us into contact with our daughter and son in law, again, in May... and gave us the opportunity to see and hold our new grandson for the first time - something that our son in law could do nothing to prevent, in room full of witnesses. However, that occasion didn't provide us with the opportunity to see our precious grand daughter... and as her birthday had passed without us having the opportunity to see her, we decided to make a surprise personal visit, to her home, to deliver her birthday present, and our gift for our new grandson, in person, while their father was at work. That's when I found the lovely little motel that we've stayed in on our two subsequent visits to our daughter's home town.

So, as you've said, it is pretty much a case of taking it one day (and one step) at a time... and maintaining your belief in yourself, while enlisting the help and support of trusted friends and/or any relatives that you might have living closer to hand. It might also help you to do some reading about how to deal with control freaks and/or narcissists, or to talk to a cousellor, who might be able to help you to come up with some strategies for dealing with your specific situation. And don't forget that while your daughter has her life to live... you have your life to live, too.

And I'll be here, on-line too, just in case you need to draw strengh from talking to someone who's in much the same situation as you.

Hi OwnBestFriend,
Thanks for your good advice and letting us know how you deal with your difficult situation. You are so right. The best thing (very difficult) is to let go.
I have done that too and the reason I know I feel better is that I could not care less now how much my daughters inlaws are visiting and are having the grand children.
I have decided that my husband and me are OK people, very good grand parents (our older grand child is very fond of us) and are and always have done our best. I am not working but we live about 2 hours drive from her. If my daughter wanted to she could ask me for help in her daily life but she does not. I suppose her husband does not want it. According to my daughter many of her friends are not blessed with parents who are willing to be grand parents or giving any help (one of her friends mother is an alcoholic). So I think she is actually lucky to have parents like os. If she does not appreciate it, it is her problem. I hardly ever phone her if I know her husband is around but she phones me sometimes and we are allowed to have our grand son on holiday. I do not expect any more and make the best of it. Maybe we have too high expections regarding family relations. Being around grand mothers where there seems to be no problems does not help of course (I suppose they have their share also but who wants to admit that). The reason I think why this can become such a problem is that the time when our grand children are small (and we are still healthy and going strong) is such a short and important period. We want to enjoy it and get frustrated when we have to face these problems instead. But that is life I suppose.
We can always hope that things change, hopefully in the not too far future. I wish you all the best and a lot of strength.


Can

Comments from Signe - initial name Berna555 who asked the intitial question about son in law

Thank You so much for your kind words, I really appreciate it greatly. And I wish you the best as well, God bless all of us in our journey.

It has really helped me reading your letter. I'm so sorry you are having such a bad time.The hardest bit is not being able to talk straight to your Daughter isn't it. You kind of forget how to laugh and joke with them. It's all the little things, I have more involved and longer conversations with total strangers than I do with my daughter. The constantly treading on egg shells is so tiring.
I have a similar problem with my son-in-law. He doesn't walk away and is very chatty, but he has a nasty tongue and enjoys saying things to undermine my confidence in my relationship with my daughter and grandchildren. He is very much his mothers son, he tells her everything. And they do loads of things together. My youngest grandchild is 3 and I've only baby sat him twice and not been aloud to have him overnight. Where his mother babysits three times a week and often overnight at week ends.He's cheap to, When we have gone out for a meal, I pay for the meal my daughter pays for the drinks.He does say thank you and how nice it is. I have have been accused of being jealous my reply was "that I have the right to be and a reason to be", Be positive, Fill your life with other things so you don't feel the loneliness so much. My ex-husband her father is walking away, he has told me he is not interested in a relationship with his grandchildren, he doesn't like our son-in-law and can't stand his family. The only time he sees them is when they want something. My Daughter has brothers and those relationships are disintigrating. My daughter loves us all mum, dad, brothers, sisters, She also love her husband. I feel that I have to be strong to keep the door open for her. She doesn't need to chose between us just teach her husband to share.
.

My daughter had planned to make a trip to visit in December 2010, but I know that my son-inlaw will find a reason to veto it.
He does not want her anywhere near her family, because he is afraid of what might be said to her. But no one says anything about him, it is he who casts the negative words. She is not being honest about not coming, but I am not anticipating her visit. I can't count on her to keep her agreements to return a phone call to me, she does't extend courtesy my way much. I have to play the superficial game with her just to chat, she does not want to have any real conversations about anything. Anything that is not pleasant or lovely she doesn't do, her father lived in a fantasy dream world like this. He died leaving his wife with thousand of dollars of credit card debt, she was almost homeless. My daughter is not quit as bad, but she doesn't want to deal with any unpleasant encounters. But she doesn't have any problems yelling at me, or blaming me. Motherhood is a thankless job! It is getting a litter better because I am detaching myself from the situation, and releasing it to God. There is really nothing that I can do about it anyway! Now I just call to say hello, or if I see her on Facebook she will chat for about a minute. We give up a lot for our children, if I had to do it again I would do some things differently. I produced a selfish person because I gave her too much, and then she grew up with the sense of entitlement. Instead she should have become thankful, gracious, kind, caring, thoughtful. But she did not develop into the later person, I do wish that I could have forseen this coming. She is raising my grandson to believe that it is OK for a man to yell, scream, and throw temper tantrums. This is because he watches his father do it on a daily basis. He is learning how to disrespect women at a young age, because she is allowing it to happen. All of these things shouldn't be happening, but they are.Her father was the same as her husband, she doesn't see it! You know what they say "you marry your father" well she kind of did, he is verbally abusive. Anyway, one day at a time is all that anyone can do. At least I am not crying everyday anymore, I am healing and learning to deal with the reality of it.

Hello again binks58

I'm pleased to hear that you're feeling stronger, and that you've found your own ways to stay in touch with your daughter. I'm also certain that with God's help, you'll also find a way to encourage your daughter (and perhaps even your son in law) to make that December visit - even if it's just so that you can see your grandson again.

I can't stand pretence either but like you, I've found that a little bit of it helps to create a "safer" environment for our daughter to be in when she's with us. So, if that's what it takes to keep her and our grandchildren in our lives, so be it.

My foster mother used to say to me, "You need to learn how to rise above it all" and even though I didn't know exactly what she meant by that statement, in her lifetime, I do now... and I often recall those, and other wise words that she used in her attempts to help me to be the strongest person that I could possibly be. She wasn't a perfect mother, either... but she did her best... just like us and, at this time of year, I always find myself remembering how much effort she used to put into cooking Christmas dinner for our entire family, without expecting any help from any of us - except for when it came to the washing up.

So, I can only hope that, in my lifteime, I'll do or say something that will give my own daughters (and grandchildren) reason to look back and remember my actions and words, with similar fondness.