Ask Me Help Desk - Question about hauntings and religion

The paranormal world can be 'creatively' explained by the holographic model. I think this is what set Bohm apart from the other quantum physicists of the time. Bohm wanted to talk about particles AND waves while people such as Bohr want to talk about particles OR waves. Needless to say the two approaches lead off in different directions. Michael Talbot seems to have jumped on Bohm's interpretation and with the help of Pribram's explanation of the brain as a hologram come up with his excellent book. At least that is how I see it.

In his video interview Michael Talbot related some personal out of body experiences when he was young and I guess he (like anyone else) would want to make sense of this experience. A holographic explanation seems to allow for this type of explanation.

It is certainly possible to come up with a 'creative' explanation for the spiritual world using this model. I am not saying I agree with everything in the book but at least it is one of the few attempts to given a scientific explanation for the phenomenon.

A creative explanation for a holographic universe might take on this form.

Imagine a holographic plate with a large number of imagines lasered into its surface. As with any holographic plate depending on the angle you look at it will determine the image you see. Fiddling with the angles allows you to see different aspects of the image. Even more extreme fiddling will reveal different images.

The analogy is this. If the universe is a hologram then our minds create reality (what we seen on the holographic plate). However, this is because our minds are limited to the amount of 'fiddling' it can do. The majority of minds 'fiddle' within the same range of angles so to speak.

Naturally, this does not mean that the majority of other images don't exist. They are with us the whole time. We are unaware of them because we can't create the angles necessary to experience these images. This does not mean that a small minority of individuals are unable to do the necessary fiddling. Naturally,not everyone who is religious has this ability, but it might explain why some people seem sensitive to this type of phenomenon.

Of course, this is just speculation on my part We can never prove anything by analogy. Let's just call it my contribution to the debate.

Tut

Tut

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Stigmata (the wounds of Christ) are supposed to be from God, not from a demon. It's a Catholic phenomenon (mostly).

Weren't the wounds of christ from the nails the romans put into his wrists and ankles? Are you talking about stigmata ? Christ's wounds weren't stigmata. It isn't a catholic phenom, it is anglican and protestant to name a few.

Tick

Quote:

Originally Posted by TUT317

The paranormal world can be 'creatively'

Of course, this is just speculation on my part We can never prove anything by analogy. Let's just call it my contribution to the debate.

Tut

Tut

Tut, while I do appreciate your research, this isn't a debate.

Tick

I don't think she was referring to Christ's actual wounds... I think she was referring to the "spiritual recreation" of them. While everyone is aware of this... I think only the Catholic church accepts it as divine... at least I've only heard of it this way. I certainly don't buy into to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tickle

tut, while i do appreciate your research, this isnt a debate.

tick

Woops... sorry... discussion.

Tut

Comment by HH
I don't think she was referring to Christ's actual wounds...I think she was referring to the "spiritual recreation" of them. While everyone is aware of this...I think only the Catholic church accepts it as divine...at least I've only heard of it this way. I certainly don't buy into to.

Yes, I meant the phenomenon experienced by (usually) Catholics -- St. Francis of Assisi and Padre Pio, for example (Stigmata - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).

I did a college paper on stigmata. :)

In your research did you find any examples outside of Catholicism? I'm curious.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hauntinghelper

In your research did you find any examples outside of Catholicism? I'm curious.

Muhammad (Islam) was supposed to have experienced stigmata. For my paper, I had identified only one non-Catholic man who happened to be an atheist, but cannot remember his name. Will PM you if I think of it.

Well, and apparently Muhammad too. I've always been interested in it, I have just not taken the time to study this phenomena.

Here is several articles on it.

Stigmata

Stigmata ASSAP

http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/stigmata.aspx

Many mention the catholic connection but they don't mention the religion of the person experiencing it. They only make mention of their deep faith.

Interesting topic. I've always been interested in stigmata, but like HH, I've never taken the time to study it. I have seen a few movies that involved this, and they were very interesting. Of course they're films, so not at all accurate, still, that's when I became interested.

Thanks for the links Cdad. That's your new nickname, because I feel really weird calling you dad, just doesn't seem right. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by TUT317

The paranormal world can be 'creatively' explained by the holographic model.

That's really interesting. I remember watching a special about paranormal phenomena on Discovery and a skeptic was saying something similar to that. Our minds are programmed to see certain things-like a face-and be able to pick it out of a crowd. We see faces in clouds and rocks, for example, all the time. So it's reasonable to assume that the faces we see in shadows or reflections are just a part of the "hologram" effect. (I realize that I'm reinterpreting and completely simplifying the hologram effect that you mentioned, Tut :))

Additionally, the voices that we hear in the wind or in the pipes could be our brains pre-programmed tendencies, rather than actual voices.

Stigmata-whether a gift from God or another spirit/being-is a little less easy to write off (unless it's self-inflicted). Wondergirl, that must have been an extremely interesting paper... do you still have a copy? I would love to read it!

I believe I referred to this discussion as a debate in error as well. Calling it a discussion is much more accurate.

Okay I just listened to the interview (I couldn't watch, I was arranging a mailmerge in excel!). Like many things of this nature, it made my brain feel a little fuzzy. I get the same way with psycholinguistics.

I think I can reasonably think about the universe as a hologram-but like you said only as an analogy to explain why humans experience things differently. The idea that everything is interconnected in a pool of energy is a little lost on me, and it's not like I haven't heard concepts like this many times before. Would anyone with a more scientific mind care to "dumb" it down for me?

Quote:

Originally Posted by southamerica

Stigmata-whether a gift from God or another spirit/being-is a little less easy to write off (unless it's self-inflicted). Wondergirl, that must have been an extremely interesting paper...do you still have a copy? I would love to read it!

I wrote it about 350 years ago. If I still have it, it's buried in a box somewhere in my basement. I remember my conclusion had been that the stigmata were usually of emotional origins. I had no explanation for the lone non-religious stigmatic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by southamerica

Okay I just listened to the interview (I couldn't watch, I was arranging a mailmerge in excel!). Like many things of this nature, it made my brain feel a little fuzzy. I get the same way with psycholinguistics.

I think I can reasonably think about the universe as a hologram-but like you said only as an analogy to explain why humans experience things differently. The idea that everything is interconnected in a pool of energy is a little lost on me, and it's not like I haven't heard concepts like this many times before. Would anyone with a more scientific mind care to "dumb" it down for me?

What's being said is that our programing (brian) is looking at the world in a certain way. Our own reality is an individual concept. So lets look at the hologram for a minute. When you look at it you can see an image within. When you turn it you see a different image. The reality is that all images are there and displayed at one time. The only difference is the angle that it is viewed from. That being said the world looks different through a prisim. And as our minds expand there can be this same effect. The ability to see more then one angle at a time. So it would allow your mind to view the other angles in relation to your own. In context of paranormal its called a doorway (or gateway). So we have reality (our concept) and our own view of the world around us. Everything is there its just a matter of interacting with it (seeing from a different angle). Then the observation is clear but the line from understanding has been crossed (para-normal).

Quote:

Originally Posted by califdadof3

Whats being said is that our programing (brian) is looking at the world in a certain way. Our own reality is an individual concept. So lets look at the hologram for a minute. When you look at it you can see an image within. When you turn it you see a different image. The reality is that all images are there and displayed at one time. The only difference is the angle that it is viewed from. That being said the world looks different through a prisim. And as our minds expand there can be this same effect. The ability to see more then one angle at a time. So it would allow your mind to view the other angles in relation to your own. In context of paranormal its called a doorway (or gateway). So we have reality (our concept) and our own view of the world around us. Everything is there its just a matter of interacting with it (seeing from a different angle). Then the observation is clear but the line from understanding has been crossed (para-normal).

Hi CD,

I think this is a good summary of how the brain works like a hologram. In other words, I understand what is being said in a similar way to you.

In order to answer Southamerica's question in relation to the so-call interconnected pool of energy we would need to draw on the holographic analogy. That is to say,by looking at the universe as something like a hologram.

What I know about holograms can be written on the back of a postage stamp, but the important thing is that people like Talbot have a good understand of how such things work so we are able to take advantage of their knowledge.

The picture we seen on a hologram is nothing but a well founded illusion. A picture of a cat is nothing more than a series of interference or wave patterns crossing over each other. Imagine a pond as a holographic plate and a handful of pebbles represents some aspect of a cat that is being 'photographed' on the plate from various perspectives. When we throw a handful of pebbles into a pond. Ripples radiate out from each pebble. Eventually all of the ripples will cross-over each other creating what is know as an interference pattern.

Even though a hologram of a cat seems very life like in terms of it being in 3D it is in fact a well founded illusion. What we actually have on the holographic plate is not a 3D cat but a series of interference or wave like patterns. It is only when we look at the plate in a certain way the cat appears.

If a holographic plate had the property of glass what would happen if we dropped it? The answer being it would shatter into many pieces. But, what if we wanted to restore the picture of our cat. We could attempt to glue all the pieces back together again. However, this hard work is not necessary.All we have to do is pick up one of the pieces ( any piece we like) and examine it.What we see on the fragment is the preserved image of the cat. Exactly the same as the original image.

What does this tell us about the universe as a hologram? It probably tells us the view that everything being separated by space is an illusion. I am no more separated from you as we are separated from anyone else on this planet. There is also the illusion we are actually solid objects . We can view ourselves as a vibrating wave like pool of energy( to incorporate your question).Separation and solidity is an is an illusion. Talbot uses the quote by the poet William Blake (I think it was Blake). "The universe is contained in a grain of sand"

The catch phrase could be, ' I think therefore I create reality'. It would seems that when it comes the paranormal some people can create rather surprising 'realities'.

I am not saying I agree with Talbot but this is how this is how I understand him. Some people may disagree or come up with a different understanding. If anyone can help my understanding of this then please do so. I am definitely not an expert when it comes to holograms.

Tut

Thank you both for your explanations so much! It's a comfort to me to know that I actually was able to interpret this concept on my own (califdado-Your explanation was pretty much exactly what I had been thinking).

TUT-your description of the hologram using ripples completely made sense to me. That was awesome.

And it all comes down to this: People with the capacity to have faith in a God have the capacity to see something as paranormal... because that's the angle that they see things from.

Dumbed down, I know... but at least it makes sense to me.

Lol your all silly :P IF any of you people have actually read the bible and understood it, which is not easy, Then you should know the reason that haunting and demonic occurrences happen mostly to the religious is not because they can or want to see it... everyone can see the paranormal... but to believe is something completely different. Ill shorten this up a bit for all of you lol...

In the beginning after Lord Jehovah created man... an angel named lucifer decided he can rule better than God, some of the angels agreed and for this they were cast down to earth for eternity in hell. People usually blame God for suffering and injustice... but it clearly stated in the bible(1 John 5:19) that this world is lying in the power of the wicked one... the real ruler of earth is satan. Now, picture this, God is a teacher and has a classroom full of children when one naughty child stood up and said I can teach this class better than you, your way is wrong. What then can the teacher do? If he throws out whoever claims he is wrong it is proving to the other students he is afraid of being wrong, but suppose the teacher asks the rebel to show the class how he wold solve the problem. Because millions of angels were watching what God would do... so like a teacher would do to show the class he is wrong is to let him do it his way and be proved wrong in front of all to see. Its like what God did... He allowed satan to show how he would rule mankind and has also allowed humans to live under satans guidance.

Now then, now you know the true power that rules over us on earth and why God has allowed this. Luifer and his followers had bacome angry and full of hate for mankind so they try anything they can to turn us from the Lord Jehovah. Because of their infinite hatred for us they turned into creatures from mans nightmares to use against us. There are six kinds of devils... all around us.
The first is the fiery, because they dwell in the upper air and have no dealings with men until the Day of Judgement.
The second is aerial because they live in the air around us. With Gods permission these demons can agitate the air for storms and tempests all for the destruction of man.
The third is terrestrial, and these were definatley cast from heaven to earth for their sins. Some live in the woods and lay snares for hunters, some lay in fields and lead night travelers astray, while others delight in living secretly amongst us.
The fourth is the aqueous, because these dwell in lakes and oceans, they are full of anger, turbulent, unquiet and deceitfull.They raise storms at sea and sink ships. When such devils appear they are usually in the form of a woman for they live in moist places and lead an easier life.
The fifth is subterranean for these live in caves and mines of mountains. They have a very mean disposition and usually go after those who work in pits or mines for treasure. They cause earthquakes and fires and winds and they can shake the very foundation of your house. They are always ready to do harm.
The sixth is the worst and pray you never meet a heliophobic. They detest the light and cannot assume a bodily form until the sun has gone. These devils are beyond human comprehension because they are dark within, shaken with icy passions, restless, perturbed, malicious and when they meet men at night they oppress them violently. Often with the Lords permission often kill men with a breath or touch. These devils have no dealings with witches and they can't be kept at bay by charms for they shun the very sound of our voices and the light we live for.
Now, the devils mark or stigmata was something very common in the persecution of witches during their trials. It is said that the distinction between a devils mark or a witches mark was that the devils mark resembled a scar. Birthmark or tattoo whereas the witches were often scabs or protuberence on the body which their familiars, ( small low rank demon given by satan to witches to advise the witch and make her perform small malicious errands including murder), suck out their blood. It was said that to prove stigmatas were devil marks given to witches, they shaved the so called witch to find any hidden marks, when the mark was found and pricked with a needle, if there was no blood and they couldn't feel it it was proven witchery. Lol silly people. There was one man who saved everyonoe from such trials. He proved the man wrong by saying that the reason there is no blood and its insensitive is because the person is laid down naked outside and pulled a towel over her face. Bc of her extreme fright and shame all her blood contracted into one part of her body. The man told her to stand and put on clothes. He then pricked her in the same spot with the mark and it bled. A stigmata from the devil is more... elegant. His mark was often found on an accused persons body for only a short duration of time and innocent people with birthmarks or moles were unjustly punished.

As for your comment that only in Jesus name or Christs, Allah, etc. is the only one with the divine power to rid demonic presences is absolutely wrong. Jesus is the son of Jehovah, but because Jehovah sent a perfect being into earth to take away sins, Jesus Christ is like Adam in the garden of eden. He gave his life for our sins therefore his name has no power over demons. The ONLY one who has the power to control the evil is Lord Jehovah, for he is the creator. Only He has to power to expel any evil entity in your life. As for the Virgin Marry, it is the same thing, Jesus and Mary were humans... given powers from God yes but still human. They live in heaven with Him assuredly but only Jehovah God has the true power to rid evil spirits as they still have to listen to Him out of fear and respect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kt0987

Lol your all silly :P IF any of you people have actually read the bible and understood it, which is not easy, Then you should know the

Kt, we try not to disparage the opinions of others here. We respect their opinion. Any member who contributed to this thread are respected members and their thoughts on any given subject are pretty well considered as far as I am concerned.

Some have a completely scientific approach to the paranormal. I for one am a fence sitter with my own experiences having nothing to do with any religion; however, we do have a couple if wiccans here I believe and I have never heard their theories about the paranormal. It would be interesting indeed.

Your approach is a biblical one, that's good, you stick to it; in fact I did enjoy your explanation.

Please be respectful.

Tick

Kt - I did enjoy reading your approach to the paranormal. I thought you did a good job explaining your beliefs and your point. I have actually heard this approach before (some aspects of it, at least).

I just want to say on a completely different note that your posts in the future (I do hope you stick around) will be much better received if you don't insert "you silly people" as you did in this post. As that was your first line, it immediately put me on the defense and I was expecting something far worse than what you wrote. Just some advice for how to best give answers around these parts.

Thanks again for your contribution.