[Alty]

Okay, I do have thoughts on gun control, and I promised to start a thread where we could discuss guns, and peoples thoughts on guns. But I didn't start the thread about the Connecticut massacre to discuss gun control. That was about the families and their loss.

So, to keep that Connecticut thread clear of gun talk, and argument, I started this thread.

Obviously I'm all for gun control. But apparently my brilliance (laugh, I'm being funny) isn't realized by everyone.

I do believe that everyone has a right to their opinion, even when they disagree with me, a know it all (it's another joke, laugh!), but I don't agree with guns. Many of my friends on this site, love guns. It's a hard tight rope to navigate.

So lets discuss it. For guns? Against guns? Give your reasons.

Let's keep it civil, and realize that there's very little chance that any of what either "team" says, will change the mind of the "opposing" team.

In other words, be nice. It's my thread, and I'm not a super mod, but I can shut it down, and I will if this turns into a fight.

So play nice. No guns here. :)

[J_9]

Darlin' you know I am all about guns! It puts bread and butter on my table. Without the hunters, I wouldn't eat as well.

I would like to know exactly what you know about the US gun control laws. In your other thread it seems that you believe that anyone can go into a store any purchase a gun. If so, that's where you are wrong. There are serious background checks that happen before a firearm is purchased.

This kind of senseless violence is horrendous. Especially when it involves children. But we look at the tool as the problem instead of the person responsible. Guns are the favorite scapegoat. 31-32 people are killed daily by drunk drivers. But we don't blame either the car or the alcohol. What if this mentally ill person had walked into the school with a samurai sword? Or an explosive device? Lizzy Borden used a hatchet. The tool is not the issue, it's the person using the tool.

So, address the alcohol and the drugs? They kill more people daily than guns do.

Alcohol is legal and no one has to go through a background check to buy it. So people get drunk and drive. Killing more people daily than firearms do.

Firearms are legal to the person who passes the background check. Drugs are illegal but anyone can get them. Drugs kill more people than firearms do.

I have the right to protect myself, legally, from some insane lunatic who steals a gun and breaks into my home. Take that away from me and how do I protect myself? With a steak knife?

What it appears that you don't understand (any maybe you do) is that the people who commit these crimes, for the most part, are unstable at best and don't go about getting their firearms legally.

[cdad]

Im for guns. And to me gun control is hitting the intended target on the first round. Alty we do have a gun section on AMHD. Most that own guns for self protection realize that when seconds count the police are minutes away. Lets say its boys night out. So you and your daughter are watching a movie. You hear glass break. Do you look for the phone and hope someone comes and addresses the problem before it gets nasty. Or would you reach for a gun and prepare while getting the phone ?

The biggest problem I see with guns is that we don't train people how to use them enough through education. Also people tend to get lazy and don't shoot it often enough. The person is responsible for the bullet no matter where it lands. The same goes for criminals. They are the ones responsible for them. So should they pull the trigger they do so in a committed fashion. Its not the gun that determines right and wrong it's the owner.

[tomder55]

Don't know if Clete will follow this thred here. But I can't let this go without comment:

Originally Posted by tomder55
What part of free will should God take away from us to prevent the acts of the evil ?
The murderer lived in Connecticut and New Jersey ;two of the states with some of the most restrictive gun laws in the nation.But the strictest law in both states is the one about committing murder. Guess that law didn't prevent it either. When you get tired of blaming guns ,you can jump on a number of other bandwagons like violent video games and movies ;or the prescription drugs he may have been on.
...
This isn't a matter of action by God Tom and you know it. You cannot tell me a person like this wasn't noticed as being a potential problem. I have just seen a news article that states this was a troubled person for a long time. You want to strike up your liberty bandwagon and play guns forever but you are avoiding the issue, there is a higher right, and it is the right to life. How many lives have been traumatised by this event, yes, twenty-eight are dead but the impact must be in the hundreds and why, so some nut could own assault weapons, because it is his right to kill people don't you know.

You want to tell us strict gun laws didn't stop this person and you were right, they weren't strict enough. I would have no doubt this person planned his actions for a long time, who knows what the trigger was, but as soon as he went over the edge he reached for a gun and look what he had to choose from, automatic weapons. Killing made easy

1st I did not call it an act of God and YOU know it. You are affixing the fault on the weapon ;.and I'm placing the blame squarely on the person ;and the existence of evil in the world.
Think about it . Guns have always been a part of America. Yet until recently you did not see such manifestations of evil in the form of mass murder as we have seen recently . So it is simplistic at best to attribute blame on American gun laws.

I'll also point out that not a single gun was used in Oklahoma City ,April 19,1995.On that day 168 lives were lost , including 19 children under the age of 6... and over 680 people were injured . That blast was created using fertilizer . Would you ban that too ?

You are also jumping to conclusions that are not supported by fact. Latest info is that the murderer did not bring the rifle into the school. He used 2 handguns... and these weren't guns with clips that had a lot of bullets . He stood there and reloaded in front of the terrified children.
As J-9 said... perhaps an armed guard ;or a properly trained teacher with a conceal and carry permit could've made a difference.

[Alty]

I would like to know exactly what you know about the US gun control laws. In your other thread it seems that you believe that anyone can go into a store any purchase a gun. If so, that's where you are wrong. There are serious background checks that happen before a firearm is purchased.

Actually, that's not true in all states. I have a friend in the US. I won't mention a username, as this person isn't here anymore, and no longer wants any part of this site. But, this person has a fine collection of guns, 5 in total. When I asked how this person obtained the weapons, all handguns, I was told, "easy, I go to the gun store and buy one". No background checks, no permits, nothing. If you have cash, and you want a gun, here you go. This person moved to a different state, and without permits, brought the weapons and was able to purchase more. Both states are well known states, big places, not a small hick town in the backwoods.

Apparently you do need a permit to carry the gun, but no one gets one. This person carried all the time, and it was never an issue, even without a permit.

So that's why I believe what I do about the US and guns. I got it that info from someone that lives in the US and has guns, and never ever got a permit for any of them. It wasn't required.

But again, I realize that's no the case in all states. Still, even one state having this sort of lax concern about who buys weapons, is too much.

But I digress.

I didn't start this thread to participate in it. I started it to give everyone that was more concerned about gun control and their opinion, than they were about paying their respects to those that died in Connecticut today, a place to voice their opinions. I have no desire to start this war again. No matter what anyone says I won't agree that giving anyone a gun is okay. That's my opinion. You all have a right to yours.

I started this thread so you'd have a place to voice that opinion, so that the thread I started for mourning the children and adults that died today, would be left alone, and not turned into a war about gun control. :(

[J_9]

But, this person has a fine collection of guns, 5 in total.

5 is a fine collection? LMAO... I could open a museum. 5 to me is a measly amount. I own more than 5 alone and I have a gunsmith as a husband. We own, not in our home, over 100 guns. Most of them are relics and collectors items, but they work. Some are from as far back as WWII.

I was told, "easy, I go to the gun store and buy one". No background checks, no permits, nothing. If you have cash, and you want a gun, here you go.

Then you were either lied to, or this person obtained these guns illegally. Remember, I owned a gun shop. I know how this works. There is a federal form that has to be filled out for every gun purchase. If you buy one today, you have to fill out the form. If you buy one 2 hours later you have to fill out the form again. Some states are stricter than others, but ALL states require this one particular form. That information then gets sent to the Bureau of Investigation of the particular state. Almost instantaneously, in most cases, the approval or denial of the gun purchase comes back to the store to allow or deny the purchase.

I currently possess a FFL (Federal Firearms License). My husband has the ability to buy, sell, or trade firearms with the general public. There are hoops that have to be jumped through in order to buy, sell, or trade.

There is always a background check with a legal purchase. Whatever this person told you is incorrect or an illegal purchase. Period!

[J_9]

Here is the pdf form that is required for every purchase of a firearm. If you fill this out and have it sent in electronically you either pass and get the gun, or you get denied and you don't get the gun. If you don't fill this out and get the gun, it is an illegal purchase.

This is a federal form that all gun shops must use. In some states there are other forms that have to be filled out as well.

Bottom line, this is the easiest way to get a gun if your state allows only this. You cannot purchase a firearm without this.

www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf

[Alty]

There is always a background check with a legal purchase. Whatever this person told you is incorrect or an illegal purchase. Period!

If I told you who this person is, you'd know that not only was it not an illegal purchase (not this persons nature) but also, this person would have no reason to lie. You'd be shocked if you knew, but I won't mention the name of this person without clearing it with him/her first. As I said, this person is no longer a member of this site.

But again, I digress.

To everyone posting here, or on the other thread, I have no desire to discuss this issue. I started this thread so the other thread would be left alone, would stand for the purpose I started it for, not for a battle about gun control, but to mourn those that died today.

I don't want to talk this gun issue to death again. Been there, done that, and it almost cost me many people I consider friends on this site. I don't want to go there again, and I won't.

The other thread was about mourning, support, coming together as a community, sharing our feelings about this tragedy in Connecticut, and consoling each other. It wasn't about guns, or a gun war, but that's what it was turned into.

I started this thread so everyone that wishes to can continue your war, but I want no part of it. So discuss.

I just ask that you keep your gun war stuff on this thread, and not taint the other thread. Please, at least respect me enough to do that, since I wasn't respected enough to have this whole thing avoided in the first thread.

[J_9]

Alty, this person misrepresented the truth then. As a gunshop owner, I know how the system in the US works legally. Some states are more stringent than others, but all have to file the Form 4473. The person you are talking about, and I don't profess to know who, nor do I want to know who, doesn't know the legalities.

When we had our shop, we also had 4 lawyers working for us to make sure all t's were crossed and all I's were dotted. If what you were told was true, they were illegal purchases in the end.

[Wondergirl]

According to a newly released article in the online Chicago Tribune, the shooter's mother (Nancy) was an avid gun collector, and it doesn't seem to be clear that she was a teacher at the school.

By evening, many media accounts indicated that Lanza's mother was the fatality at the second crime scene. Her connection to the school was unclear.

Nancy Lanza was "very nice, very pleasant and always very appreciative of our work," said Dan Holmes, owner of Holmes Fine Gardens, a landscaping firm in Newtown.

Holmes, who last week decorated her yard with Christmas garlands and lights, said Nancy Lanza was an avid gun collector who once showed him a "really nice, high-end rifle" she had purchased.

"She said she would often go target shooting with her kids," said Holmes. "She was always very concerned about her son."

State police refused to confirm any details about the Lanzas, saying they hoped to have more information on Saturday.

[TUT317]

1st I did not call it an act of God and YOU know it. You are affixing the fault on the weapon ;.and I'm placing the blame squarely on the person ;and the existence of evil in the world.

I see... and tell me what YOU know Tom. What theory of omnipotence do you subscribe to for explaining evil in the world?

Perhaps,the idea that such things are inevitable because there will always be people who choose to do evil things in the world? An inevitability that comes about because God has given us free will?

I think you need to talk to Clete again, your defense of the above statement is pretty ordinary to say the least.


Tut

[tomder55]

A lot of the initial reports were wrong. They named the older brother ,Ryan Lanza as the shooter .The mom is apparently a teacher's aid and not a teacher. An "assault rifle " was mentioned as the weapon used etc.
Here are the facts known about the weapons :
Two pistols, a Glock and a Sig Sauer, were found inside the school. A .223-caliber rifle(maybe or maybe not an 'assault rifle' ) was found in the back of the car that Lanza drove to school. Lanza's mother had four weapons legally registered, and his father had two. A Henry repeating rifle, an Enfield rifle and a shotgun were also recovered by police; it was not clear where they were found. I don't know the circumstances about how Adam Lanza got possession of his mom's weapons . That is information that has not been disclosed yet.

There is plenty of room for speculation about the murderer .I've heard reports all over the scope from him being an honor student 'geek' to being a 'goth ' loner type who was treated with all the popular fad psychotropic medications of our days . That is a subject worthy of it's own discussion ,because if I discern any pattern at all in the mass shootings in the US of the last decade ,that could be the common denominator .

As far as gun laws go... The biggest mass murder in a school in the US occurred May 18 1927 in Bath Michigan. 38 elementary school children, two teachers, four other adults and the murderer were killed... at least 58 people were injured. Most of the victims were children in the second to sixth grades .
The only gun play involved as the use of a Winchester rifle that was used to set off a series of detonations. What else do we ban ?

In Norway they had always banned guns but a psycho got a gun on the black market and killed 70+ kids .There were no armed security guards to defend against that.There were no armed security guards to defend the students at V Tech .Students at the school were not permitted to have guns on campus... Yet the murderer managed to use them on campus. The theater in Colorado was in a 'gun free zone' .

Federal and state laws combined to insure that no teacher, no administrator, no adult had a gun at the Newtown school . Our children are our most innocent and most vulnerable and deserve at least to have the protection a shepard would provide a herd of sheep . Children in Israel confront the possibility of violent death all the time. Yet in their schools they are pretty secure against an armed thug shooting them. Why ? Because the Israelis allow for armed security in their schools.

Oh my son, my son! Would God I had died for thee!( 2 Samuel 18:33 )

Deliver us from evil Amen .

[tomder55]

I see.....and tell me what YOU know Tom. What theory of omnipotence do you subscribe to for explaining evil in the world?

Perhaps,the idea that such things are inevitable because there will always be people who choose to do evil things in the world? An inevitability that comes about because God has given us free will?

I think you need to talk to Clete again, your defense of the above statement is pretty ordinary to say the least.


Tut

Read the bible ;the fall from grace ;a whole chapter devoted to Cain. That will be a good start.

[TUT317]

Read the bible ;the fall from grace ;a whole chapter devoted to Cain. That will be a good start.

So Clete was right all along? I guessed as much.

Tut

[tomder55]

No he isn't . My comment was... What part of free will should God take away from us to prevent the acts of the evil ? Clete seems to think that humans can legislate evil out of existence .He has called for bans on guns ,movies ,music ,speech etc. That is what I dispute. He twisted my words to make it sound like I was attributing acts of evil to God.. I did no such thing.

[TUT317]

The problem is that you have left yourself wide upon for criticism by invoking such a statement. There always people who think that free will is bound very much in the idea of God's sovereign plan for us. And they could be right.

I asked for a clearing up of this matter when I said could I have your ideas on free will, determinism and how these are related to problems of good and evil.

Nothing in this area was forthcoming. On that basis I would avoid resorting to these types of 'higher justifications'.

Just a suggestion.


Tut

[joypulv]

I'm for the right to own guns. Not all types of guns and not without background checks. I own a gun. My hero as a child was Annie Oakley. I suppose she still is.

I don't think of a target as a person any more than a baseball player thinks of the ball as someone's head, despite the fact that his bat could be lethal too.

I just got an email from MoveOn last night (I live in CT) asking me to host a vigil in my tiny town. One phrase stuck in my craw: "to demand a plan to end gun violence." I felt such a pit in my stomach reading that. Frustration and anger and sadness at the pitiful notion that we the people can 'demand' this, and that I should feel obligated to hold a vigil or maybe I'm a horrible person. Murderous rampages have afflicted us since the beginning of homo sapiens. A rampage in Europe a few hundred years ago was lopping off the heads of peasants for no reason at all. Before that we put our neighbors in the stew pot.

This country does have a history with a shoot them up stereotype that is based on truth. Even my townspeople got out their guns before elections and shot them into the air during arguments, according to my grandfather, a hundred years ago. Never mind the wild west, where people shot their guns just watching a movie.

The states set their gun laws and I agree with that. We keep working on those state laws. It's not perfect. No system of government ever is, but it's the best there is.

[excon]

Hello, J_9:

There is always a background check with a legal purchase. Whatever this person told you is incorrect or an illegal purchase. Period!

Not exactly... That would be true ONLY if he bought the guns in a gun shop.. But, if he bought them at a gun SHOW, then he doesn't have to provide ANYTHING other than his money.. We have LOTS and LOTS of gun shows all summer long, from coast to coast in this fair country of ours...

Just saying...

Excon

PS> (edited) Ok, all WINTER long too... GET them guns... We have a black man running things..

[mogrann]

I am deeply saddened by this as are most others. My feeling is it is not about gun control nor mental illness. We have had those issues/rights for a long time. What is now shifting us as humans to this violence? Why are we killing so much more now than before? I have no answers just lots of questions.
Heading on over to the other thread to talk about the tragedy just wanted to put my two cents in this thread and keep the other one as a memorial thread.

[tomder55]

There always people who think that free will is bound very much in the idea of God's sovereign plan for us. And they could be right.

There is no conflict between free will andGod's plan . Our having free will was always part of God's plan . That is what the tree in Eden represented... a choice. God did not compel Adam and Eve to either eat of the tree or obey God's law . They screwed up and faced the consequences. I ask how do I benefit if God were to compel me ? How would we be any different than a household pet ;or a slave ?
Free will is a gift from God. If that means we allow make bad choices and allow evil in our heart ,it does not stand to reason that the course we take is part of God's plan.It is up to us to use God's gifts to the best of our ability ;and if we stray ,to accept the responsibility as ours alone.

I can't help it if Clete intentionally misread my comment . I'll say it again.for God to truly get rid of evil God would have to censor all of our thoughts and actions and thus eliminate free will.(sorta like what Clete would do banning guns ,banning certain violent movies ,banning certain types of speech and thoughts ) .