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-   -   Is magic real? (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?t=332002)

  • Mar 21, 2009, 07:29 AM
    jammixmaster
    Is magic real?
    There have been many posts about if magic or spells exist or not so I've made a new post explaining it.

    Magic is real. It works by raising, directing and releasing energy to obtain a goal. However, there are those who have tried to cast a spell before and it didn't work and they wonder why or they no longer believe in magic. There are several factors that could have not allowed their spell to work. The #1 reason is that because magic is pure energy, it works by "like attracting like". That means that if you cast a spell then start thinking that it might not work, then it won't. Why should it if you don't believe it? That's why more seasoned Witches have an old saying, which is "Set it and forget it". That means after you cast the spell to forget about it.

    Anyway, magic does exist and it is all around us. I'm sure all of us at one point or another have been told "You can do anything you put your mind to". In a nut shell, that is the basis of magic, because magic must first begin in the mind and you must focus your mind on that intent before it becomes reality. Some call that "creative visualization". So yes, magic, spells, witchcraft, tarot cards, palm reading, astrology, summoning spirits, astral projection and all that jazz... it's all real. Any questions? :cool:
  • Mar 21, 2009, 08:10 AM
    sarnian
    Hello jammixmaster

    Can you provide any scientific support for magic?
    I mean any proof that magic has been tested in a scientific way for it's effects and power?

    Your #1 reason is that because magic is pure energy : do you have any proof for that?

    You stated 'anyway, magic does exist and it is all around us... "You can do anything you put your mind to".'
    You mean that is your evidence?

    You stated 'Any questions?'.
    Yes I have : please support what you preach. Please provide the supporting evidence!

    Of course you may believe that this is so, but claiming it to be a fact is incorrect until you proved it!
  • Mar 21, 2009, 04:26 PM
    jammixmaster

    No problem. I'm glad you asked. I'll start with your first question, of scientific proof. Science has already proven that magic is real because as stated before, magic is pure energy, and science has proven that energy exists (just go read any physics or chemistry book). As for your second question, I would have to delve more into psychology to give you a full answer but I'll try and simplify here. Magic begins in the mind because the mind is the center of all focusing... unless you can prove to me that you can focus on something with your foot then I guess we'll just have to stick with the mind. Science has already proven that you can use your mind to create change, that process of creating that change is called magic. Some people may call it "positive thinking" or whatever, but that's essentially how magic works. That's not to say that if you focus on becoming a billionaire that tomorrow you'd be one. There are other factors that come into play and it's too much to type here. As for proving it, I'm sure you've already proven it to yourself. I don't know your personally so I can't explain exactly how but I can give you some examples. If there has ever been a time in your life that you needed something or just wanted it really bad but had no way of getting it, then a few days later (or any time frame) out of nowhere the means for getting what you wanted or needed came. Science would call this a "coincidence". But we all know that a "coincidence" is just science's way of saying "I don't know how to explain that".
  • Mar 21, 2009, 04:46 PM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jammixmaster View Post
    Science has already proven that magic is real because as stated before, magic is pure energy, and science has proven that energy exists (just go read any physics or chemistry book).

    You are mixing two things here. Yes science can prove that energy exists, no debate there. No it has not proven that magic is real. Can you post some papers on this subject?
  • Mar 21, 2009, 05:39 PM
    jammixmaster

    There are not many papers on the subject as most scholars choose just the one side... either magic or science. I did however find this:

    Science vs. witchcraft

    I'm not sure if its what you're looking for but it's the best I could find. BTW Needkarma, your display pic is awesome, that guy is like the new Billy Mays!
  • Mar 21, 2009, 07:04 PM
    XOXOlove

    jammixmaster can you do magic? If so how? I'm just curious
  • Mar 21, 2009, 09:07 PM
    vwdieseljunkie
    "Magic", explained by jammixmaster, is "pure energy". This thought is lost by many, as they try to rationalize it as though it were something tangible, like electricity. To further complicate any attempt to explain "magic", you have the problem provided by science fiction. I've heard the "if magic is real, then show me a green, wart-nosed woman in a black outfit flying around on a broom, or turn me into a toad. See! You can't do it, so it isn't real!" I personally have never flown without mechanical means, nor have I pulled a rabbit from any of the many hat's I own.

    Magic is whatever you can convince your mind that it can be, so long as you understand that it's much more fantastic in your imagination, and normally quite boring in reality.

    Most of what I've seen considered "magic", didn't really have anything "magical" about it. Our desire to mix emotion and belief into what we cannot explain intellectually, and the desire to be something more than what we appear to be, tends to throw things like "magic" out of proportion.

    If you mix a base with an acid, a reaction occurs. For someone who has never experienced this before and doesn't understand the science behind the reaction, IT'S MAGIC! But, it's our imagination that makes it so, and our desire to believe in something fantastic. In reality, it's boring old predictable science. Many "spells" are found to be similar to this.

    However, you still have the "pure energy" side of the "spell", such as the incantation, meditation, séance, astral-projection, etc. that is quite often chocked up to total BS by those without the desire to believe. These same people, more often than not, are the same that believe in the "power of prayer", yet do not make the connection between prayer and "energy projection". As far as I can tell, and this is my opinion, there is not much difference. You are projecting your personal energy, whether it be emotional or physical, whether you believe it is received by an omnipotent being and sent back down, or if there is no "middle man" in the process and you are in control, you are still doing it. How exactly the process works, is left up to the individual and their mind's eye, as there isn't a all-fitting practical explanation that I know of.

    I find it easier to compare to that which is a fantastic piece of science fiction: Star Wars, and the "Force". It's a cooperation between you and your surroundings though a transference of energy. Can you reach out and make your light saber come to you? Well, there is a lot of science behind telekinesis, and it's the ability to affect matter with your mind, right? Moving salt shakers across the table, bending spoons... Sure, why not a light saber, lol. But the concept wasn't invented by the movies. Many of the Native American beliefs that I have read about, shared the belief that there was a "web" that connected all things. That everything from the soil to the sky was an inter-weaved, cooperative being. We get to participate in this form for a while, but will be returned to the earth to propagate another life. Does Disney's "the Lion King" song "the Circle of Life" ring a bell?

    Now after you remove the science fiction from "the Force" and remember what you learned in middle-school science class, EVERYTHING ON EARTH is made of protons, neutrons, and electrons. Everything, even the rocks at the bottom of the river, the tree in your yard, the air you breath, and yes, even you, is composed of basically the same stuff. What defines the rock from the tree, is the composition and order in which these things are arranged. Granted, I'm no scientist or professor, and my comparisons probably suck, but you get the idea, I hope.

    But here I am, coming full circle, and beginning to try to explain how "magic" and "pure energy", is, in a way, electricity. Without electricity, our synapses don't fire, our thoughts don't form, our heart doesn't beat. We might as well be a rock or a tree. It's the attraction and repulsion, the cooperation of the electrons and protons of the elements that make up the forms we keep. This electricity, this "pure energy" or "magic", is in us all. How you rationalize what it is, and what you can or cannot do with it, is reliant solely upon your desire to accept the form or fashion in which it exists. How this is projected, I do not pretend to understand, but I can believe that we possess the ability to do so, whether in the form of prayer, as a spell, or in any other flavor you choose. We know there's something to it, though we can't reach out and touch it, and we all long for an explanation that we can understand, but it's just out of reach.

    Ok, I'm burned out, it's been a long day, hopefully someone can help make sense of what I think I was trying to say with all this, and that maybe some part of what I have said here can be helpful to the discussion. I hope.
  • Mar 22, 2009, 04:04 AM
    sarnian
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jammixmaster
    .... scientific proof. Science has already proven that magic is real because as stated before, magic is pure energy, and science has proven that energy exists (just go read any physics or chemistry book).

    Yes, science proved that energy exists. But you still have to prove that magic is pure energy.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jammixmaster
    .... Magic begins in the mind because the mind is the center of all focusing.......unless you can prove to me that you can focus on something with your foot then I guess we'll just have to stick with the mind. Science has already proven that you can use your mind to create change, that process of creating that change is called magic.

    Sure, magic can begin in the mind. But there are limits. You stated "You can do anything you put your mind to". But that is not true. There are limits. You can imagine many things in your mind, but that does not ensure that whatever you imagine is real or can be done. So prove that you can literally do anything you put your mind to, or accept that this is no support for your magic claim.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jammixmaster
    .... There are other factors that come into play and it's too much to type here.

    How conveniant. But I have all the time, so go ahead : post these factors, of course supported by valid evidence.


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jammixmaster
    .... As for proving it, i'm sure you've already proven it to yourself. I don't know your personally so I can't explain exactly how but I can give you some examples. If there has ever been a time in your life that you needed something or just wanted it really bad but had no way of getting it, then a few days later (or any time frame) out of nowhere the means for getting what you wanted or needed came. Science would call this a "coincidence".

    Science would call this a non-answer. Of course there is coincidence. But that has nothing to do with 'real magic', and nothing with 'You can do anything you put your mind to'. Please keep to the subject and the point I made. Prove that 'You can do anything you put your mind to'. Or accept that there is no support for this claim.

    Note : you have not in any way supported so far your claim that magic is real.
    You introduced a lot of 'red herrings' in response to my previous post, but I like to keep focused in your own topic on your own question 'Is magic real?' and your own statement "Magic is real". I asked you to support that statement. But I am still waiting.

    Again : of course you may believe that magic is real, but claiming it as fact is incorrect until you have proved it!
  • Mar 22, 2009, 04:17 AM
    sarnian
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by vwdieseljunkie View Post
    I've heard the "if magic is real, then show me a green, wart-nosed woman in a black outfit flying around on a broom, or turn me into a toad.

    You may have heard that, but in this topic all that was asked was to provide valid support for the claim "magic is real". So far I am still waiting.
  • Mar 22, 2009, 07:45 AM
    mastermagican

    Magic is real if you think it is. For example you never heard of eletricty and one day david blaine came up fliped a swicth and a light came on then you would belife it was magic
  • Mar 22, 2009, 07:59 AM
    vwdieseljunkie
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sarnian View Post
    So far I am still waiting.

    Yeah, well, I am also still waiting for proof that there is a god. Does my disbelief in a vengeful, omnipotent, omnipresent entity have anything to do with whether one exists? No. That is why I made the comparison to prayer and incantation. Though through belief, neither has anything to do with the other, yet they are both the same in my opinion.

    But, you are right sarnian, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. So magic does not exist because I can't make your keyboard fly off your desk while you type, unless I was there with you to yank on the cord. But that's OK with me.

    As someone who has spent a great deal of time in the company of practicing Wiccans (and other various paganistic beliefs that "use magic"), I had learned to keep my mouth shut and my eyes open, and not make it too obvious that I've got my tongue in my cheek and often trying not to smile, or worse, laugh. This is as serious to those who believe in magic as prayer is to a Christian.

    I can make water burn, hell I can make water expload VIOLENTLY. It's not magic to me, it's provable, tangible, boring old science. But to watch the eyes of those who witness me do it, even after explaining what the reaction was, you could see that it was still magic to them. It was extraordinary.

    The argument against magic is like the argument against religion. Until the omnipotent one comes home, or someone turns you into a toad, we are left only to believe what we choose. It's the inability to positively disprove the actual existence of either, that keeps it believable to the individual.

    Am I making any sense?
  • Mar 22, 2009, 08:20 AM
    XOXOlove

    I guess it kind of makes more sense now, but how do you do it?

    And even if I could do magic I think I would still believe in god.

    Don't wiccans believe in god(s)?
  • Mar 22, 2009, 08:39 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jammixmaster View Post
    .....it's all real. Any questions? :cool:

    Hello j:

    I cannot imagine living in a world where a goblin is waiting around the corner to pounce, or where Satan is ALWAYS trying to make you do stuff, or where a white haired guy in the sky is telling you not to listen, or where your car might disappear because a magician made it so...

    Nope, I cannot imagine it. It would actually be quite scary knowing that you don't have control over your life. How do you folks get through the day?

    excon
  • Mar 22, 2009, 08:44 AM
    vwdieseljunkie
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by XOXOlove View Post
    i guess it kind of makes more sense now, but how do you do it?

    and even if i could do magic i think i would still believe in god.

    don't wiccans believe in god(s)?

    I was using faith in god as an example of belief in something that can not be physically disproven, and yes wiccans believe in god/gods/goddesses. As far as "how do you do it", as far as I can tell, it is up to the individual as what you feel that works for you may not work for others. The imigination plays a big role here. Mental visualization of things that cannot be seen with the eyes. It is the projection of thought, energy, whatever you want to call it. I don't know for sure if you can bend a spoon or move something with your mind, or even if you can have any actual effect on your surroundings, but that's not to say that you can't believe that you can.

    Much of what I can agree with is more of the ability to effect yourself. I believe we are more than we seem. From the thought that we only use a small portion of our brain, what our mind does when we are asleep, and what we are capable of if we focus ourselves.
  • Mar 22, 2009, 08:55 AM
    XOXOlove

    So it's like having telekineses?
  • Mar 22, 2009, 08:55 AM
    vwdieseljunkie

    I think I may be able to provide an example of sorts to help explain the idea I am trying to get across...

    There was a young lady that had cut herself in the kitchen while cutting up herbs. It wasn't a really bad cut, but there was blood, and she was in pain. Her aunt, and self-professed "witch", began a "spell" to stop the pain and help with healing. It involved moving her hands around in a certain way over the injury, and saying some choice incantation, and the young lady said that the pain was going away and that it didn't hurt anymore, and it was accredited to the "spell".

    Was it in fact magic that stopped the pain? Or was it simply that the young lady believed that the "spell" was having an effect, and thus made her body ignore, or at least lessen the acknowledgment of the pain.

    By the time all of this had transpired, the blood at the injury had clotted (like it's supposed to) and the bleeding had stopped. Not magic by any means, it's our natural biology doing what it does, but it happened to take place at the right time.

    What made it magic may have been nothing more than psychology, and the ability for the young lady to manage her own pain, through the suggestion that the "spell" would work.
  • Mar 22, 2009, 10:13 AM
    sarnian
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mastermagican View Post
    magic is real if you think it is.

    I already mentioned that. That approach is called BELIEF.
  • Mar 22, 2009, 10:22 AM
    sarnian
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by vwdieseljunkie
    ... So magic does not exist because I can't make your keyboard fly off your desk while you type, unless I was there with you to yank on the cord. But that's ok with me.

    No, that is incorrect : I never stated that as supposed evidence. You did.
    I simply asked : please provide evidence for the claim 'magic is real'.
    Still I have not seen any evidence for that.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by vwdieseljunkie
    ... I can make water burn, hell I can make water expload VIOLENTLY.

    Empty words, just wild claims. Please provide EVIDENCE that you can do that.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by vwdieseljunkie
    ... The argument against magic is like the argument against religion.

    I have no argument against magic, nor against religion. I have an argument against people making wild claims which they can not back-up with evidence.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by vwdieseljunkie
    ... Am I making any sense?

    No.
  • Mar 22, 2009, 11:06 AM
    XOXOlove

    Where does the energy that you use to do magic come from. It can't just come out of nowhere. That's the part I don't get.
  • Mar 22, 2009, 03:19 PM
    jammixmaster
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by XOXOlove View Post
    jammixmaster can you do magic? if so how? im just curious

    Of course I can do magic! I'm a Wiccan Priest. Now if you're talking about turning people into frogs or levitating then I suggest you stick with Charmed or Buffy The Vampire Slayer, they are the only Witches that can WOW you with TV magic. As for the "how" of my magic, as stated in previous posts its too hard to explain here. I suggest you buy a book on the subject or download one from a torrent.
  • Mar 22, 2009, 03:22 PM
    jammixmaster
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sarnian View Post
    Yes, science proved that energy exists. But you still have to prove that magic is pure energy.

    Sure, magic can begin in the mind. But there are limits. You stated "You can do anything you put your mind to". But that is not true. There are limits. You can imagine many things in your mind, but that does not ensure that whatever you imagine is real or can be done. So prove that you can literally do anything you put your mind to, or accept that this is no support for your magic claim.

    How conveniant. But I have all the time, so go ahead : post these factors, of course supported by valid evidence.


    Science would call this a non-answer. Of course there is coincidence. But that has nothing to do with 'real magic', and nothing with 'You can do anything you put your mind to'. Please keep to the subject and the point I made. Prove that 'You can do anything you put your mind to'. Or accept that there is no support for this claim.

    Note : you have not in any way supported so far your claim that magic is real.
    You introduced a lot of 'red herrings' in response to my previous post, but I like to keep focussed in your own topic on your own question 'Is magic real?' and your own statement "Magic is real". I asked you to support that statement. But I am still waiting.

    Again : of course you may believe that magic is real, but claiming it as fact is incorrect until you have proved it!


    I'm guessing the proof you're looking for does not lie in words, but in visuals. In that case you would have to meet me or meet someone who actively practices magic. No matter how long of a post I write trying to convince you, you won't believe anyway. So I suggest you try it yourself (the best suggestion) or find someone who practices magic. But like I said, trying it yourself would be your best bet, so you can see it with your own eyes using your own mind and will to do it.
  • Mar 22, 2009, 03:27 PM
    jammixmaster
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by vwdieseljunkie View Post
    Yeah, well, I am also still waiting for proof that there is a god. Does my disbelief in a vengeful, omnipotent, omnipresent entity have anything to do with whether or not one exists? No. That is why I made the comparison to prayer and incantation. Though through belief, neither has anything to do with the other, yet they are both the same in my opinion.

    But, you are right sarnian, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. So magic does not exist because I can't make your keyboard fly off your desk while you type, unless I was there with you to yank on the cord. But that's ok with me.

    As someone who has spent a great deal of time in the company of practicing Wiccans (and other various paganistic beliefs that "use magic"), I had learned to keep my mouth shut and my eyes open, and not make it too obvious that I've got my tounge in my cheek and often trying not to smile, or worse, laugh. This is as serious to those who believe in magic as prayer is to a Christian.

    I can make water burn, hell I can make water expload VIOLENTLY. It's not magic to me, it's provable, tangible, boring old science. But to watch the eyes of those who witness me do it, even after explaining what the reaction was, you could see that it was still magic to them. It was extraordinary.

    The argument against magic is like the argument against religion. Until the omnipotent one comes home, or someone turns you into a toad, we are left only to believe what we choose. It's the inability to positively disprove the actual existence of either, that keeps it believable to the individual.

    Am I making any sense?


    I have to agree and disagree with you. The kind of magic that turns people into toads is TV magic, and you can thank shows like "Charmed" and "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" for that. That sort of magic does not exist, if it did we'd all be practicing magic. I mean, if we could just cast a spell to get rich I think there would be a lot more than 1000 or so billionaires in the world.

    As for the belief of God, true, we cannot prove that one. People believe by faith that a God exists, so we just have to wait until one comes or we die to find out. But obviously words cannot make any of you believe in magic so why not practice it yourselves? And don't give some lame excuse like "I don't have time" or "Why would I waste my time with something as stupid as magic?". Just do it and see for yourself. I could sit here and write the world's greatest book on magic and still most of you would not believe. So, go out and buy a book or download one and try it for yourself. If my words aren't enough proof, then get it yourself.
  • Mar 22, 2009, 03:30 PM
    jammixmaster
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by XOXOlove View Post
    i guess it kind of makes more sense now, but how do you do it?

    and even if i could do magic i think i would still believe in god.

    don't wiccans believe in god(s)?

    Yes we Wiccans believe in a God, but we also believe in a Goddess and we give Her more reverence than we do to our God... but that in no way means that God is not important. But yes, we are a polytheistic people (in reality we're duo-theistic but it's extremely hard to explain how) and we believe in a Goddess and a God. I hope that helps.


    *BTW: You don't have to believe in God to practice magic, you can simply practice magic as a folk art without using any Deity names*
  • Mar 22, 2009, 05:17 PM
    sarnian
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jammixmaster
    I'm guessing the proof you're looking for does not lie in words, but in visuals.

    Not really. I asked evidence for the topic claim that magic is real. To me it is unimportant if that is done with words or visuals. As long as valid evidence is provided, not claims, hearsay, or personal opinions.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jammixmaster
    In that case you would have to meet me or meet someone who actively practices magic.

    Once more : not really. There is no need for someone who practices magic. All I ask is valid evidence for magic being real.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jammixmaster
    No matter how long of a post I write trying to convince you, you wont believe anyway.

    You do not have to convince me, and I do not have to believe anything. All I ask is to provide valid evidence for magic being real.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jammixmaster
    So I suggest you try it yourself (the best suggestion) or find someone who practices magic.

    That seems to confirm to me that you have no valid evidence that magic is real. Why can't you simply admit that?
    As stated before, I have no problem people believing that magic is real.

    ===

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jammixmaster
    As for the belief of God, true, we cannot prove that one.

    I note that you can neither prove that magic is real. So my conclusion can only be that - just like theists believe in God(s) - you just believe that magic is real.
  • Mar 22, 2009, 06:08 PM
    str33t punk

    Magic is real,but not in the way people think, it is not the suden glow yousee in a magicians hands, or a floating object controlled by his mind. It all has to do with slight of hand and the right equipment. Like you see on TV where somebody is floating that is the "magic" or camera first the magician will levitate on his toes (go on his tip-toes on an angle to make it look like he/she is floating) then they add a hoist to the magician and film the hoist lifting him several feet above the ground.. add in some pre recorded reacions and boom you have your levitation. As the floating objects, the "magic" in invisible thread. Everything has an explination, me being a magician myself knows the only magic is the slight of hand and seeing your fans smile as they dream about this unrealistic entertainment
  • Mar 22, 2009, 06:46 PM
    jammixmaster

    Ok Sarnian, lets go with what you said. If magic isn't real, then why do people continue to practice something that brings no results? That's like trying to write with a pen that has no ink. You know the pen is empty yet you keep trying to write with it. What's the point? The same goes for our discussion on the existence of magic. If every time for the past 9 years that I've been practicing magic, if 100% of my spells didn't work then why the F would I continue to follow the Wiccan faith? Makes no sense. Magic is real, whether you believe it or not. And I already said that I have proved to you with words that magic exists, you just choose not to accept it. Because of that I told you to try it for yourself. If you're not willing to try it for yourself you just don't want to accept the fact that maybe... just MAYBE you may prove to yourself that magic is real. You keep asking for proof... prove it to yourself I can't cast a spell over a message board... so therefore you would need to do it for yourself. I don't know how many times you've said that I can't prove it. I'm trying to prove it, by telling you to do it yourself. You say I'm afraid to admit that it's not real... yet I think it's you who is afraid... afraid to try it for yourself. You're a man of science right? Well then, conduct and experiment for yourself.
  • Mar 22, 2009, 09:04 PM
    XOXOlove

    What drew you into doing magic? Did you already know how?
  • Mar 23, 2009, 05:20 AM
    sarnian
    Hello str33t punk
    Quote:

    ... it all has to do with slight of hand and the right equipment...
    Sorry, but in this Wiccan topic MAGIC means supernatural. What you refer to is the work of a magician.
  • Mar 23, 2009, 05:37 AM
    sarnian
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jammixmaster
    Ok Sarnian, lets go with what you said.

    But you do not go with what I said. I asked for valid evidence for the claim that magic is real.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jammixmaster
    If magic isn't real, then why do people continue to practice something that brings no results?

    Because they believe magic is real. Just like people who believe in God(s) believe in the power of their belief.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jammixmaster
    Magic is real, whether you believe it or not.

    You can say that as many times as you like, but lacking any valid evidence for that, you clearly can not support your claim that magic is real.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jammixmaster
    ...yet I think it's you who is afraid...

    What a strange conclusion. All I ask you (and others) is to provide valid support for your claim that magic is real. Apparently you can't do that, and involve yourself in all kinds of red herrings instead of admitting that you believe that magic is real.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jammixmaster
    You're a man of science right? Well then, conduct and experiment for yourself.

    Yes I am well-versed in science. But I do not claim anything. All I do is ask for valid support for claims made by others. I do not have to conduct and experiment myself. I do not have to prove my views. You and your friends claim, so you have to provide valid support for what you claim to be real.

    Every next entry here in which you post red herrings and/or try to let me involve myself in research in your belief in magic proves only one thing : you have no valid support for your wild claims !
  • Mar 23, 2009, 06:47 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jammixmaster View Post
    Ok Sarnian, lets go with what you said. If magic isn't real, then why do people continue to practice something that brings no results?

    Hello j:

    Because it DOES bring the desired result.

    I do magic tricks. People LOVE them. That's the result I'm looking for. I LOVE to entertain my friends. Plus, when I see magic performed, I LOVE it. Not because I think it's real, but because I got tricked.

    None of it is real - none of it.

    excon
  • Mar 23, 2009, 06:53 AM
    vwdieseljunkie
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sarnian View Post
    No, that is incorrect : I never stated that as supposed evidence. You did.
    I simply asked : please provide evidence for the claim 'magic is real'.
    Still I have not seen any evidence for that.

    That was meant as a practical example, not intended to sound like I was quoting you, sorry.


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sarnian View Post
    Empty words, just wild claims. Please provide EVIDENCE that you can do that.

    Really, you haven't heard how to make water burn? You know what water is composed of, right? Hydrogen and Oxygen? I disassociate the water molecule with electrolysis, leaving me with a gaseous mix of 2H and 2O, called "hydroxy" by some, and it is wonderfully explosive. But, nobody wants to hear about the science behind it, they want to see the magic show of water burning.


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sarnian View Post
    No.

    Well, at least you aren't afraid to tell me that I don't make any sense, that does put you in the top 90% of people that also don't think I make any sense, and that's OK, because I seldom make sense. But I try!
  • Mar 23, 2009, 12:49 PM
    jammixmaster
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sarnian View Post
    But you do not go with what I said. I asked for valid evidence for the claim that magic is real.


    Because they believe magic is real. Just like people who believe in God(s) believe in the power of their belief.


    You can say that as many times as you like, but lacking any valid evidence for that, you clearly can not support your claim that magic is real.


    What a strange conclusion. All I ask you (and others) is to provide valid support for your claim that magic is real. Apparently you can't do that, and involve yourself in all kinds of red herrings instead of admitting that you believe that magic is real.


    Yes I am well-versed in science. But I do not claim anything. All I do is ask for valid support for claims made by others. I do not have to conduct and experiment myself. I do not have to prove my views. You and your friends claim, so you have to provide valid support for what you claim to be real.

    Every next entry here in which you post red herrings and/or try to let me involve myself in research in your belief in magic proves only one thing : you have no valid support for your wild claims !



    You're just taking yourself in a big circle here. You keep saying to prove it. There is no way to prove it with words. If there was, it would have already been proven. Just because something is written in a science book does not make it fact. I seem to remember that in the old days, books used to say the world was flat... this was before anyone decided to TRY IT THEMSELVES and actually find out. When they did, they found the world was round. So, instead of repeating yourself post after post after post saying "prove it" why don't you prove it yourself? You say you don't have to conduct an experiment? Why not? Are you afraid you'll see the truth? If you don't have to prove it to yourself then I, nor any other Wiccan has to prove it to you on our end. Do it for yourself and stop looking to others to do it for you. You want proof? Go out and get it yourself. Also, you stated that I am afraid to admit my belief in magic:

    "Apparently you can't do that, and involve yourself in all kinds of red herrings instead of admitting that you believe that magic is real."

    I have no problem with admitting I believe in magic. If I didn't, I wouldn't keep defending my belief. You say you want valid proof.......fine, let's use science as an example. We all know that if you put a mentos candy into a coke bottle after a few seconds it will erupt. But let's say that no one ever tried it, but it was just written all over the internet. Just because it's written does not mean anything. Someone could post exactly how it happens, backed with the scientific reasoning and all......but that still does not make it real. However, if you were to actually try it for yourself, and see if putting a mentos into a coke bottle would make it erupt is true......then it becomes real. You would see it for yourself, and then you would believe. So, quit asking for me to show you when it is impossible to show you how to do magic on a message board. You would have to do it for yourself or find someone in your area to show it to you. If you can't do that then every post you make after this is just going to have your circular reasoning and you're be redundant in saying "proof proof proof".



  • Mar 23, 2009, 01:24 PM
    simoneaugie

    jammixmaster said: "I have no problem with admitting I believe in magic. If I didn't, I wouldn't keep defending my belief."

    Any questions?

    The trouble with everything people disagree on is that we express it in words. Words are an imperfect method of describing reality, just try translating something. Logic is useful but not the only reality there is. Logic is a tool, a way of thinking, or expressing oneself, with words. Scientific study is useful... But the scientist affects and therefore changes the experiment by observing it.

    Perhaps a better question is, does this view fit with the reality you are currently experiencing? Even when you disprove my reality, I must make the choice to believe that the "world is round." Until I change my view all the proof offered is just words, your words, not what is real to me.

    Yes, magic is real to me. And do your own proving to yourself whether it is or not. Don't ask me to BS you with words and studies. BS yourself.
  • Mar 23, 2009, 01:49 PM
    jammixmaster
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by simoneaugie View Post
    jammixmaster said: "I have no problem with admitting I believe in magic. If I didn't, I wouldn't keep defending my belief."

    Any questions?

    The trouble with everything people disagree on is that we express it in words. Words are an imperfect method of describing reality, just try translating something. Logic is useful but not the only reality there is. Logic is a tool, a way of thinking, or expressing oneself, with words. Scientific study is useful...But the scientist affects and therefore changes the experiment by observing it.

    Perhaps a better question is, does this view fit with the reality you are currently experiencing? Even when you disprove my reality, I must make the choice to believe that the "world is round." Until I change my view all the proof offered is just words, your words, not what is real to me.

    Yes, magic is real to me. And do your own proving to yourself whether it is or not. Don't ask me to BS you with words and studies. BS yourself.


    Thank you... I think
  • Mar 23, 2009, 04:56 PM
    str33t punk

    Oh okay.. just thought I would put in my 2 cents lol
  • Mar 23, 2009, 05:05 PM
    sarnian
    Hello str33t punk

    Many people here believe that magic is real (no problem), but they also claim magic is real, and post that repeatedly. However when asked for they can not support that claim in any way. So better keep your 2 cents : that's worth more than most of the statements here...
  • Mar 23, 2009, 06:39 PM
    jammixmaster
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sarnian View Post
    Hello str33t punk

    Many people here believe that magic is real (no problem), but they also claim magic is real, and post that repeatedly. However when asked for they can not support that claim in any way. So better keep your 2 cents : that's worth more than most of the statements here ...

    ... or maybe you should try doing it yourself rather than keep asking others to show you.
  • Mar 25, 2009, 12:04 PM
    katiesxx
    Well there are 2 meanings to that, magic tricks and magic. I don't believe in magic but it is impossible to know if its real.
  • Mar 25, 2009, 01:05 PM
    simoneaugie
    [QUOTE=sarnian
    Many people here believe that magic is real (no problem), but they also claim magic is real, and post that repeatedly. However when asked for they can not support that claim in any way. So better keep your 2 cents : that's worth more than most of the statements here ...[/QUOTE]


    And, that would be sarnian's two cents.
  • Mar 25, 2009, 06:22 PM
    sarnian
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by simoneaugie
    And, that would be sarnian's two cents.

    Indeed. And that is worth more than most of the statements here, including yours !
    Of course anyone may believe that magic is real. But if one states that magic is real, one has to be able to prove that, if asked. So far I asked several times, but nobody could provide the proof !

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