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    crabman1500cc's Avatar
    crabman1500cc Posts: 36, Reputation: 1
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    #21

    Jul 8, 2008, 07:15 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by JudyKayTee
    It is virtually IMPOSSIBLE to overturn a Supreme Court ruling - and that's where NYS divorces are heard - without an Attorney. You may not even be allowed to file without an Attorney. The appeal will come to the facts - not corrupt Judges, not the legal system stinks, but facts -

    You can attempt to overturn the original decision IF the "true" info would have led to a different decision. If the "true" info is not important to the case and the decision you cannot overturn the original decision based on those grounds.

    For example, using your ex-wife - she says she doesn't/can't/hasn't worked because she has MS; she provides a false affidavit. The Judge decides she hasn't worked in X years and so he doesn't force her to find employment. The MS letter has nothing to do with his decision - his decision is based on her past employment history.

    Again - IMPOSSIBLE without an Attorney.
    Ok, now I am beginning to understand the "FACTS" and I thank you very much for educating me about the law. I greatly appreciate your opinion.

    I believe my next step is trying to find a good attorney without breaking the bank and that will be attentive to my case.
    JudyKayTee's Avatar
    JudyKayTee Posts: 46,505, Reputation: 4600
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    #22

    Jul 8, 2008, 07:21 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by crabman1500cc
    Ok, now I am beginning to understand the "FACTS" and I thank you very much for educating me about the law. I greatly appreciate your opinion.

    I believe my next step is trying to find a good attorney without breaking the bank and that will be attentive to my case.

    You've got it! And there's no sin in looking around for an Attorney, sort of interviewing and seeing if you can work together. Happens all the time. This is obviously a life changing event for you and you have to find an Attorney you trust, like, can work with, someone (as you said) attentive with an attentive staff. Everyone may have a similar fee schedule and you only know that by asking. Also, I expect to call my Attorney and have someone with enough smarts to write down the message on the other end of the phone.

    Check back and let us know how you make out -
    crabman1500cc's Avatar
    crabman1500cc Posts: 36, Reputation: 1
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    #23

    Jul 8, 2008, 07:23 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by George_1950
    You have mentioned perjury in several places within the context of a contested domestic relations case. How many cases like this have you been associated with in some fashion or another? How many such cases has the judge been associated with? You should understand that you are emotionally involved and invested in your case, as you should be. However, that is not a healthy way to present a case in court. As Honest Abe said, 'a lawyer that represents himself has a fool for a client.' I'm not saying some of her facts aren't truthful; how would I know? But judges listen to contested claims all the time, searching for the truth within the procedural rules of the court and the rules of evidence. Parties can misrepresent facts and impressions without the misrepresentation becoming "material". "Material Fact - A material fact is a fact which, if known, would have affected the judgment of one or more of the parties to a transaction... A material fact cannot be an opinion, belief, prediction, or speculation, and typically must relate to something in the past or present that can be proved or disproved." Here's a humorous news accout: "So what category of litigants features the most perjurors? According to John Henry Hingson III, the former president of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, itís not criminal defendants. 'The grand-slam, home-run winner is in domestic relations court. People in divorce cases act crazy.'" Law Blog - WSJ.com : The Elusive Perjury Charge (Yeah, Yeah, That's the Ticket!)
    Effective counsel will show the judge that a party or witness is coloring his/her testimony without getting to perjury; that is usually enough for the other side to prevail.
    I guess I will have to start from scratch in finding a good laywer without breaking the bank that will be attentive to my case.
    crabman1500cc's Avatar
    crabman1500cc Posts: 36, Reputation: 1
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    #24

    Jul 8, 2008, 07:24 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by JudyKayTee
    You've got it! And there's no sin in looking around for an Attorney, sort of interviewing and seeing if you can work together. Happens all the time. This is obviously a life changing event for you and you have to find an Attorney you trust, like, can work with, someone (as you said) attentive with an attentive staff. Everyone may have a similar fee schedule and you only know that by asking. Also, I expect to call my Attorney and have someone with enough smarts to write down the message on the other end of the phone.

    Check back and let us know how you make out -
    I will and once again thank you.
    George_1950's Avatar
    George_1950 Posts: 3,100, Reputation: 236
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    #25

    Jul 8, 2008, 07:29 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by crabman1500cc
    I guess I will have to start from scratch in finding a good laywer without breaking the bank that will be attentive to my case.
    Why not return to the courtroom you were in; take a day off and go with your notebook and observe the judge and lawyers. Make certain you go on a day when the calendar is for contested temporary hearings in divorce cases. When you see a lawyer that impresses, just ask for a card. He/she may have time to speak with you in the hallway. Good luck.
    crabman1500cc's Avatar
    crabman1500cc Posts: 36, Reputation: 1
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    #26

    Jul 8, 2008, 07:32 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by George_1950
    Why not return to the courtroom you were in; take a day off and go with your notebook and observe the judge and lawyers. Make certain you go on a day when the calendar is for contested temporary hearings in divorce cases. When you see a lawyer that impresses, just ask for a card. He/she may have time to speak with you in the hallway. Good luck.
    That is an excellent idea. Thanks for the advice. :)
    Fr_Chuck's Avatar
    Fr_Chuck Posts: 81,268, Reputation: 7689
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    #27

    Jul 8, 2008, 09:40 AM
    Ok, you can't seem to understand, law is not fair, it is legal, it has nothing, not a single thing to do with right and wrong, get that silly idea out of your head.

    It is only what you can prove in court. An the judge is the "god" in the court room. And he has the right to decide what evidence he will accept and what he will not. He is suppose to follow set guidelines but in family court there is a lot more open to accept or not accept various evidence.

    And this is how it works, they submit evidence and if you can prove it incorrect it will not be used. If they do not provide the evidence you want, you have to file a motion in court to have it redid, if not it will be accepted, it is not the judge that will just throw it out, it has to be either just into proper or the other side has to object.

    Also you can't appeal just because you don't like what the judge decides. There has to be specific grounds to appeal basied on NY law of appeals.

    So you don't like the truth sorry, without an attorney, going against someone with an attorney, esp in family court you have almost no chance at all of winning without an attorney, that is just it, they will know what motions to file to tie it up and they will know what to serve that you won't answer properly.

    As for as child support, there should be a min about that you can get no matter what. So how and why you are not getting support, was there specific orders of support requested? Again it is not automatically given you have to file specific motions to get the child support, and it is not automatically part of a divorce procedure.

    And so you don't want to pay 1500 a month alimony, sorry if the judge rules it, and you don't have a reason to appeal, you will pay, sorry getting mad about it does not help, in fact that is what the other side wants you to do, since when you get mad you stop thinking and normally do more to help their side.
    JudyKayTee's Avatar
    JudyKayTee Posts: 46,505, Reputation: 4600
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    #28

    Jul 8, 2008, 10:00 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by George_1950
    Why not return to the courtroom you were in; take a day off and go with your notebook and observe the judge and lawyers. Make certain you go on a day when the calendar is for contested temporary hearings in divorce cases. When you see a lawyer that impresses, just ask for a card. He/she may have time to speak with you in the hallway. Good luck.

    In my area divorce hearings are very often closed -

    You can also save some time by getting a copy of the local Law Journal - sometimes the calendar is on line. See which Attorneys appear the most frequently; are they Plaintiff or Defendant Attorneys?

    I am concerned if you have no experience with the law that you will not be able to tell a good or impressive Attorney from a bad Attorney - the Attorney may appear brilliant but simply be throwing up smoke screens with nothing to back them up. You won't know who won or lost (so to speak) until the Order is finalized so you won't have a good/bad basis.

    I would go with the number of cases and the number of times the Attorney has appeared.
    crabman1500cc's Avatar
    crabman1500cc Posts: 36, Reputation: 1
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    #29

    Jul 8, 2008, 10:02 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
    Ok, you can't seem to understand, law is not fair, it is legal, it has nothing, not a single thing to do with right and wrong, get that silly idea outof your head.

    It is only what you can prove in court. An the judge is the "god" in the court room. And he has the right to decide what evidence he will accept and what he will not. He is suppose to follow set guidelines but in family court there is alot more open to accept or not accept various evidence.

    And this is how it works, they submit evidence and if you can prove it incorrect it will not be used. If they do not provide the evidence you want, you have to file a motion in court to have it redid, if not it will be accepted, it is not the judge that will just throw it out, it has to be either just inot proper or the other side has to object.

    Also you can't appeal just because you don't like what the judge decides. There has to be specific grounds to appeal basied on NY law of appeals.

    So you don't like the truth sorry, without an attorney, going against someone with an attorney, esp in family court you have almost no chance at all of winning without an attorney, that is just it, they will know what motions to file to tie it up and they will know what to serve that you won't answer properly.

    As for as child support, there should be a min about that you can get no matter what. So how and why you are not getting support, was there specific orders of support requested ?? Again it is not automaticly given you have to file specific motions to get the child support, and it is not automaticly part of a divorce procedure.

    And so you don't want to pay 1500 a month alimony, sorry if the judge rules it, and you don't have a reason to appeal, you will pay, sorry getting mad about it does not help, in fact that is what the other side wants you to do, since when you get mad you stop thinking and normally do more to help thier side.
    My mistake was that I found a horrible attorney that didn't go to "BAT" for me and my daughter. I hope to find a good attorney that will be attentive to my case for appeals.
    crabman1500cc's Avatar
    crabman1500cc Posts: 36, Reputation: 1
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    #30

    Jul 8, 2008, 10:07 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by JudyKayTee
    In my area divorce hearings are very often closed -

    You can also save some time by getting a copy of the local Law Journal - sometimes the calendar is on line. See which Attorneys appear the most frequently; are they Plaintiff or Defendant Attorneys?

    I am concerned if you have no experience with the law that you will not be able to tell a good or impressive Attorney from a bad Attorney - the Attorney may appear brilliant but simply be throwing up smoke screens with nothing to back them up. You won't know who won or lost (so to speak) until the Order is finalized so you won't have a good/bad basis.

    I would go with the number of cases and the number of times the Attorney has appeared.
    My former attorney equals your quote: "may appear brilliant but simply be throwing up smoke screens with nothing to back them up"

    I guess I have a lot of homework to do.
    JudyKayTee's Avatar
    JudyKayTee Posts: 46,505, Reputation: 4600
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    #31

    Jul 8, 2008, 10:10 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by crabman1500cc
    My former attorney equals your quote: "may appear brilliant but simply be throwing up smoke screens with nothing to back them up"

    I guess I have alot of homework to do.



    Well, maybe in the middle of this awful situation for you this will make you smile - and I SWEAR it's the truth.

    Know one of the ways I judge Attorneys? By their shoes. Successful Attorneys may wear cheap clothes (or not) - but they always wear expensive shoes.

    :D
    crabman1500cc's Avatar
    crabman1500cc Posts: 36, Reputation: 1
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    #32

    Jul 8, 2008, 10:15 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by JudyKayTee
    Well, maybe in the middle of this awful situation for you this will make you smile - and I SWEAR it's the truth.

    Know one of the ways I judge Attorneys? By their shoes. Successful Attorneys may wear cheap clothes (or not) - but they always wear expensive shoes.

    :D
    That was cute. GOOD ONE :)
    cdad's Avatar
    cdad Posts: 12,687, Reputation: 1438
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    #33

    Jul 8, 2008, 04:40 PM
    Don't be afraid to ask when your choosing a lawyer about how fees work. Some lawyers charge for every little thing where others may not. Gets tough to absorb a charge for licking a stamp so there is no harm in asking. Billing policies can vary as much as the lawyers and law itself.

    Good Luck
    crabman1500cc's Avatar
    crabman1500cc Posts: 36, Reputation: 1
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    #34

    Jul 8, 2008, 05:09 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by califdadof3
    Dont be affraid to ask when your choosing a lawyer about how fees work. Some lawyers charge for every little thing where others may not. Gets tough to absorb a charge for licking a stamp so there is no harm in asking. Billing policies can vary as much as the lawyers and law itself.

    Good Luck
    Thanks.
    crabman1500cc's Avatar
    crabman1500cc Posts: 36, Reputation: 1
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    #35

    Nov 2, 2008, 01:56 PM
    [QUOTE=crabman1500cc;1135921]I am the plaintiff in a divorce action which the financials were disposed of through a memo by the judge in Sept. 2007. I have not received a divorce decree or financial order as of yet to review and it is the month of November 2008. I have sole custody of my daughter who is 15 years of age, lastly, I have terminated legal representation in May 2008 due to financial difficulty.

    I have contacted my former attorney through emails from Feb - May 2008 asking if he received any legal documents from the opposing attorney and/or firm, and my former attorney told me he received nothing as of yet. I just emailed him today being November 2, 2008 asking whether he received any legal documents such as a Divorce Decree or Financial Order from the opposing attorney and/or firm, and I await the reply.

    I've contacted the county clerks office every month to verify whether any new events occurred on my case, and I was told there was nothing entered.

    Just last week I was served a notice to appear in court on Nov. 18, 2008 from my x wife (not by her attorney) regarding past due alimony and the judge that was assigned to my divorce case signed the notice.

    I thought I was suppose to receive a DIVORCE DECREE from the opposing attorney for my review and signature, etc...

    I need advice.
    cadillac59's Avatar
    cadillac59 Posts: 1,326, Reputation: 94
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    #36

    Nov 2, 2008, 02:19 PM

    I'll take a stab at this one, even though I haven't reviewed all of the (rather lengthy) responses:

    First, check the local court rules. Typically if one side is directed to prepare an order or judgment and doesn't do it within a given time frame (like 10 days) the other side can just prepare it and directly submit it to the court for the judge's signature and filing (some counties may require it be sent with a time limit to opposing counsel for approval first). So you may have to prepare the judgment yourself- or at least you can. Second, if there was perjury at trial this is a criminal matter and should be referred to the local DA's office if you want to pursue it (it's probably a waste of time, however). Finally, appeals have to be filed within a limited time (often 60 days) so you're probably too late for anything like that and, in any event, appeals are not appropriate simply because you didn't like the judge's decision on matters that are within judicial discretion. You don't get to appeal simply because you want a new trial.
    cadillac59's Avatar
    cadillac59 Posts: 1,326, Reputation: 94
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    #37

    Nov 2, 2008, 02:21 PM
    Oh, and one final thing: if you have a CS order and haven't been receiving support, turn the case over to the local child support services department in your county. They will enforce the order and collect support for you free of charge.
    ScottGem's Avatar
    ScottGem Posts: 64,970, Reputation: 6056
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    #38

    Nov 2, 2008, 02:57 PM

    Did you keep documentation of your contacts with your attorney and the court?

    Take them into the hearing and ask the judge how you can be in arrears on alimony when you have received no notice that you were supposed to pay anything. If your ex and her attorney are trying to pull a fast one by entering a decree without notice, they will get caught.
    crabman1500cc's Avatar
    crabman1500cc Posts: 36, Reputation: 1
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    #39

    Nov 2, 2008, 03:11 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by ScottGem View Post
    Did you keep documentation of your contacts with your attorney and the court?

    Take them into the hearing and ask the judge how you can be in arrears on alimony when you have received no notice that you were supposed to pay anything. If your ex and her attorney are trying to pull a fast one by entering a decree without notice, they will get caught.
    I have all the emails from my former attorney.

    In May 2008 my former attorney prepared and signed (with my signature included) three notarized consent to terminate legal representation forms.

    One was for myself, one I mailed out to the opposing attorney back in May 2008, and one that my former attorney told me that he will go to the court house to present the form to officially withdraw as council.
    crabman1500cc's Avatar
    crabman1500cc Posts: 36, Reputation: 1
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    #40

    Nov 2, 2008, 03:21 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by cadillac59 View Post
    I'll take a stab at this one, even though I haven't reviewed all of the (rather lengthy) responses:

    First, check the local court rules. Typically if one side is directed to prepare an order or judgment and doesn't do it within a given time frame (like 10 days) the other side can just prepare it and directly submit it to the court for the judge's signature and filing (some counties may require it be sent with a time limit to opposing counsel for approval first). So you may have to prepare the judgment yourself- or at least you can. Second, if there was perjury at trial this is a criminal matter and should be referred to the local DA's office if you want to pursue it (it's probably a waste of time, however). Finally, appeals have to be filed within a limited time (often 60 days) so you're probably too late for anything like that and, in any event, appeals are not appropriate simply because you didn't like the judge's decision on matters that are within judicial discretion. You don't get to appeal simply because you want a new trial.
    I was told by the county clerks office that in order for me to start an appeals case that I must have a divorce decree prepared by the opposing attorney for my review, and then the Judge reviews and signs it and it is entered and the divorce is finalized.

    My former attorney prepared with his signature (as well as my signature) three notarized consent to terminate legal representation forms.

    One for myself, one to the opposing attorney, and lastly one that my former attorney took to the court house to officially withdraw as council.

    I contacted the county clerks office every month to verify if their were any new developments to my case and I was told no.

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