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    okwiater's Avatar
    okwiater Posts: 5, Reputation: 1
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    #1

    Aug 14, 2007, 07:02 AM
    Yorkie puppy housebreaking getting worse, not better
    I adopted a 6-month-old Yorkie puppy last month, and am having a really hard time housebreaking him. He was kept in a pen before I owned him, and I'm sure got used to eliminating whenever he needed to. I've had him for about 4 weeks now and this most recent week has been by far the worst. What am I doing wrong?

    At night, he sleeps in a small plastic crate that is just the right size for him to lay down without too much extra space. I leave a hard chew toy (like a Denta-bone) in there for him in case he gets bored and needs to chew. In the morning, I take him right outside, feed him, then take him outside again about an hour later after I shower and get ready for work. When I am at work (about 7-3), I leave him in the crate.

    This seemed to work pretty well right from day 1. When outside, he seemed to have no problem sniffing the grass and finding a nice place to go. He had an occasional accident on the carpet, but it was usually if I hadn't been paying close attention to him and failed to see the signs he needed to go. As long as I took him out regularly, he went outside pretty reliably.

    This week, though, he has been really bad. One night I was paying really close attention to him and I noticed him squatting on the carpet to pee every 20 minutes. Each time, as soon as the squat took shape, I said "Sparky, no! Bad dog!" and took him right outside without letting him finish. Once outside, he would refuse to go anywhere. We walked around for 30 minutes, and he didn't do anything. Inside though, just a couple minutes later he was in squat position again. Every time he goes outside I praise him.

    He has also started pooping in his crate. The first week I had him, he had only one pooping accident in his crate while I was at work. The next two weeks, he did not have any accidents (so he can definitely hold it). This week he has pooped in his crate three times. He always tries to either hide it under the towel that I leave in the crate, or push it out through the door. When he poops in his crate, he gets a bath (which he hates).

    This morning, I took him out of his crate and said "do you want to go outside?" like I always do every morning. He ran around and jumped like he usually does, then we started walking down the stairs. Halfway down, he perched on one of the stairs (didn't even go into squat position) and started peeing. This had never happened before. I told him "No! Bad dog!" and grabbed him, put the leash on, and took him outside. In the grass, he immediately finished peeing, but refused to do his usual morning poop. He also threw a tantrum twice when I tried to bring him back inside after waiting for him to poop for 10-15 minutes. I'm afraid of what I will find in the crate when I get home today.

    He still hates his crate too. He never goes in there unless I make him or unless there is a toy inside that he wants. He always tucks his tail when forced to go and will try to run anywhere in the room except the crate. It almost seems like he has gotten afraid of me, too, since when I approach him before I leave for work in the morning he balls himself up in the corner like he is about to be kicked (this is new behavior this week; I have NEVER kicked him) and then I make him go in the crate. It is so sad and I hate to leave him, but unfortunately that's life.

    I can't even reward him for going in his crate using treats because he is so sad that he won't even eat them. I have these chicken liver treats that he loves when I teach him to sit and lay down, but when I give him one for going in his crate, the treat is still there 8 hours later when I come home.

    What am I doing wrong?
    RubyPitbull's Avatar
    RubyPitbull Posts: 3,575, Reputation: 648
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    #2

    Aug 14, 2007, 09:08 AM
    Thank you for choosing to adopt rather than purchase. Rescues can be a bit tough at times because we don't know their history. When they have been crated/caged the majority of the time, they become used to using that space to do their business because they are not always walked on a regular basis. Most shelters and rescues do not have the time to housebreak a dog so the older a dog is, the more time it will take to undo the learned behavior. Is he neutered? Most rescue groups will ensure dogs are neutered/spayed prior to adoption. If he is not neutered, this should be done to minimize the marking of territory and possible aggressive tendencies. A vet check for a urinary tract infection or other urinary problems may be in order if some of the techniques that are suggested here don't make a dent in his progress within the next week.

    Labman has a sticky at the top of the dog forum that gives direction on housebreaking and crating https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/dogs/i...man-53153.html

    It does sounds like you may need some guidance on leadership and being the "alpha of the pack". Labman has some very good information and guidance on this issue. I will not steal his information. I am sure he will stop by and post before the end of the day. In the meantime, please read through his link that I have provided.
    okwiater's Avatar
    okwiater Posts: 5, Reputation: 1
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    #3

    Aug 14, 2007, 10:27 AM
    Thank you RubyPitbull... I did read through Labman's sticky as well as some of the other posts on this forum. All were very informative! However, I think my situation is somewhat unique in that I don't think it's an issue of "getting through" to him the appropriate place to eliminate. Something else seems to be going on, and I am really worried that he is not taking to his new home in the crate.

    BTW, he is not neutered yet but I have an appointment in about a week for that procedure.
    RubyPitbull's Avatar
    RubyPitbull Posts: 3,575, Reputation: 648
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    #4

    Aug 14, 2007, 10:38 AM
    It does appear that you are encountering problems that are not normal when you seem to be doing the proper corrections. There is a very good possibility that whoever owned him before used the crate as a punishment tool instead of a safe den, and possibly physically abused him. Most dogs that come from a rescue need to have their confidence built up. A huge part of that is done through our leadership. They need to know they are safe and taken care of. Since labman hasn't shown up and you are currently online, I hope he pardons me for giving you a portion of one of his leadership postings:
    Quote Originally Posted by labman
    The key to most behavior problems is approaching things using the dog's natural instincts. Dogs see all the people and dogs in the household as a pack with each having their own rank in the pack and a top dog. Life is much easier if the 2 legged pack members outrank the 4 legged ones. You can learn to play the role of top dog by reading some books or going to a good obedience class. A good obedience class or book is about you being top dog, not about rewarding standard commands with a treat. Start at Raising Your Dog with the Monks of New Skete As you praise the dog for following your commands, it will build its confidence.

    Play tug of war with the dog and lose. However at the end of the game, take the rope or toy and put it up, less the dog becomes confused about who is top dog. Ropes from the pets' store quickly turn to hazardous shreds. Ones I made lasted much better. Go to a hardware or home center that sells rope by the foot. Buy 2' of 3/4" poly rope. Melt the ends, and tie knots in it. Get them as tight as possible, put it in a vise and pound it with a hammer. Watch carefully, and be ready to discard when it comes apart.
    I am writing something regarding the crate that should be helpful to you. I will post back.
    RubyPitbull's Avatar
    RubyPitbull Posts: 3,575, Reputation: 648
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    #5

    Aug 14, 2007, 11:04 AM
    Since you are gone a good portion of the day, is it possible to get a trusted neighbor, friend, or neighborhood teen looking to make a little extra money, to come in during the late morning, around 11:00 a.m. to walk him and play with him for a little while? Dogs are very social animals and considering he is now in a new home and is not adjusted to his new life yet, he may need reassurance that he is not being abandoned. Most young dogs can't hold off potty time for 7 or 8 hours. Since he needs to be trained to hold it, it would be best if he is given additional breaks during the daytime hours. As he gets older, when he adjusts to what his regular potty schedule is, you will find that he will be able to hold it until you get home.

    The other thing that you may want to do is to put a Kong toy (you can pick them up at any pet store - they are tough rubber toys that he can't tear apart) fill it with a little peanut butter & small treats, and leave it in the crate. I know you have used treats and he isn't touching them, but the scent of peanut butter is hard for a dog to turn down peanut butter. The scent is strong.

    You may want to use the crate when you are home as well. Leave the door open and encourage him to go in by feeding him in his crate, or putting the kong treat toy in there. It is just a matter of him becoming accustomed to this being his special place and not a punishment tool. It will take a lot time and patience on your part to reprogram him if this is what is going on in his little head. If you only crate him when you leave for the day and at night when you go to sleep, it could be that he views it as punishment. Sit down next to the crate while he is eating and keep yourself busy by reading your newspaper. Tell him, "Good boy(name)". You can talk to him, keeping the tone of your voice encouraging and warm.

    With regard to the morning accidents, to minimize the chance of him defecating/urinating before you manage to get him outside in the morning, don't feed him later than 5 p.m. and take him for his final night time walk as late as you possibly can. Then, first thing in the morning, don't ask him if he wants to go outside, just lead outside as quickly as you can. Don't give him an opportunity to get excited. That makes the bladder and bowels go into overdrive.
    okwiater's Avatar
    okwiater Posts: 5, Reputation: 1
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    #6

    Aug 14, 2007, 11:20 AM
    Thank you, I will try some of your suggestions. Perhaps I will sit with him and try to get him to play with a peanut butter Kong in his crate.

    I have been leaving food out for him to eat whenever he wants (that is what I was told to do when I first got him, because that is what he was used to). Is it okay to adjust this to specific feeding times? What time or times of day should be feeding times if I work during the day, in order to make him most comfortable for the periods I am gone when he has to hold it?

    I will look into a dog walker but I am relatively new to the neighborhood and it's an area where most people work. I'm not sure if I'll be able to find someone that I can trust, but I'll look.
    RubyPitbull's Avatar
    RubyPitbull Posts: 3,575, Reputation: 648
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    #7

    Aug 14, 2007, 11:27 AM
    The food is a huge part of the puzzle when it comes to housebreaking. I didn't realize that you were allowing him to eat when he felt like it. Please don't leave the food out. I am not sure why you were told to do this. I don't know how much yorkies eat because I work mainly with larger breed dogs, but I would imagine it wouldn't be more than a 1/2 cup to one cup of kibble a day. Small dogs only need to eat once a day. So, I would suggest feeding him later in the day when he has been up and about and works up an appetite. Feed him around 5 p.m. in his crate, well after you have gotten home from work and have walked and played with him. Then make sure your last walk with him at night is as late as you possibly can. Gives him a chance to completely empty himself out. In the morning, before you leave, place the kong with the peanut butter/treats in the crate.

    Regarding being new to the neighborhood, that is difficult. I would suggest talking to your vet or going back to the rescue you got him from and see if they have names/numbers of people who they can recommend and they can assure you are trustworthy. You should also look around your neighborhood for the people with dogs, or speak with people at work and see who has a dog. Someone should be able to give you some advice as to what they do when they need a pet sitter or walker.
    labman's Avatar
    labman Posts: 10,580, Reputation: 551
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    #8

    Aug 14, 2007, 06:42 PM
    RubyPitbull has done her usual fine job. The frequent urination may mean a UTI. If so, I am sure the vet will want to clear it up before neutering. I agree it is at least partly a pack status thing. Neutering will be a big help with that. Even if he wasn't an abused rescue, he may have been held in poor conditions by a breeder or pet store. Not much more for me to add.
    bushg's Avatar
    bushg Posts: 3,433, Reputation: 596
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    #9

    Aug 14, 2007, 10:19 PM
    okiwater I have 2 small dogs that eat twice a day. The 9 pound dog gets 1/2 to 3/4 cup and my 13 pound dog gets almost 3/4 to 1 cup of food per day. What they do not eat in the a.m. is put back down in the evening for them to eat. I figure their blood sugar level can drop like peoples do and that is 1 of the reasons that I feed them 2x's a day, also, I figure they have tiny tummy's and can't eat as much as big dogs can in 1 sitting. It seems to work out very well us.
    okwiater's Avatar
    okwiater Posts: 5, Reputation: 1
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    #10

    Aug 15, 2007, 05:22 AM
    Thank you to everyone for your responses.

    When I got home from work yesterday, he had pooped in his crate again so I decided to make some immediate changes. Despite the "den animal" instinct, I really feel like he did not like to be in the enclosed plastic crate because he constantly likes to know what is going on around him. I decided to give the metal cage a try instead, partially at the suggestion of my sister and her husband who have two Yorkies of their own.

    I fed him last night in his new cage around 6pm, and took the food away after he had eaten for 15 or 20 minutes. I will change the routine to a scheduled feeding time. Should I leave his water out, or should that also be scheduled? I'd hate for him to not drink if he is thirsty.

    I also introduced him to the peanut butter kong, and put a nice soft blanket in his cage which he likes. As predicted, he shows no interest in toys or treats unless I am nearby watching him. I ended up sitting there next to the cage and reading a book for awhile.

    So far, I think I have already seen some improvement. Since the new cage is different from his old crate, he doesn't seem to be particularly afraid of it. I closed the door last night after he fell asleep and he was fine through the entire night. He didn't even complain or scratch to get out when I awoke. I left him in there for 5 minutes while I walked around the bedroom before letting him out, and he seemed perfectly content to lay there watching me.

    In addition, when I left for work, he went back in his cage without complaint. It's not really practical for me to go home during lunch and walk him myself, but I think I may give that a try for the next week or two to see if it helps.
    RubyPitbull's Avatar
    RubyPitbull Posts: 3,575, Reputation: 648
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    #11

    Aug 15, 2007, 06:03 AM
    I know it is an inconvenience, but if you can manage to give him a midday break, the accidents should stop. I understand what bushg is saying, but I was suggesting feeding him in the late afternoon or early evening (6 p.m. should be fine), to avoid his pooping in the crate during the day. If your dog is healthy, I don't think you need to worry about blood sugar levels. The usual rule of thumb with small dogs is to feed only once a day, and it usually is in the late afternoon or early evening. When dogs pick at their food in the morning, it means they aren't really hungry. The movement and exercise during the day works up an appetite. Within the next couple of days, if you feed him once a day, you should see him eat all of his food in a short period. If he is still picking at it after 15 or 20 minutes, allow him to finish. If he doesn't touch it for 15 minutes, then pick it up. Later on, when he is housebroken and you feel that his body is trained to poop in the morning and/or at night, when there is no chance for an accident, you can start testing leaving the food out again, or feeding twice a day, if you are more comfortable with that.

    Sounds like the switch to the metal crate is working for you. Do whatever it takes to give him the comfort level he is seeking. Later on, he may decide that he likes the plastic one to use as his den with the door left open.

    Regarding the water, I always like to leave it around too. But if he is sleeping a lot during the day, his body responses slow down and the need for water or food is minimized. I was trying to find a way to lessen his urge to urinate if no one is around to walk him. He won't dehydrate during the hours that you aren't around. I mentioned the UTI early on, and labman brought it up again. I really don't like the thought of leaving a dog with a possible UTI, without water. They need the water to flush their system. So, it might be wise to have him checked for one as soon as you are able, preferably before the weekend. Let's rule that out or get the problem under control quickly, whatever the case may be.
    okwiater's Avatar
    okwiater Posts: 5, Reputation: 1
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    #12

    Aug 15, 2007, 06:21 AM
    Forgot to mention, he had a checkup 3 weeks ago and was given a clean bill of health. Can a dog with a UTI hold it for 8 hours during the night? He seems to have no problem holding it sometimes, but not other times. In addition, though he poops in the crate he does not pee.

    Also, regarding the midday break, ideally I will find someone in the neighborhood to help with that. I can do that for the next couple weeks, but as a long term solution it's not practical. I live 35 miles from work.

    Thank you SO much for all of your help. This is my first dog and I was worried that I was just a terrible "parent." I will post back with progress. Thanks again.
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    labman Posts: 10,580, Reputation: 551
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    #13

    Aug 15, 2007, 06:21 AM
    The idea that dogs would like a more enclosed plastic crate than an open metal one is speculation on my part. I don't consider that it has worked well for me for 17 puppies proof of it. I do know that my daughter thinks her small terrier mix is happier in a metal crate. I am not one of those people that jumps to conclusions from a few examples of their own. Maybe I should talk to my friends. On their second trip through the alphabet naming puppies, they are up to Fiona. They use a mixture of metal and plastic crates. Even things, proven to be the best with most dogs, may not be best for others. If what you are doing isn't working, it is time to try something else.

    One meal in the morning works very well with my puppies after they are 6 months old. They tend to do their processing and be done with bowel movements before I take them out somewhere in the evening. When I take one somewhere in the morning, I am always careful to walk them around good before taking one in somewhere. The dog guide school expects the puppies to be on the one meal in the morning when returned for training. Through the first 16 weeks of training, they are slowly changed to one late afternoon meal before their training with their partner starts. That may allow serious training to go uninterrupted after the first thing in the morning relief.
    RubyPitbull's Avatar
    RubyPitbull Posts: 3,575, Reputation: 648
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    #14

    Aug 15, 2007, 06:53 AM
    A dog with a UTI usually has trouble holding it for 8 hours. So, if your doctor gave a clean bill of health, this is probably just a training issue. See how the suggestions I gave to you work. Make sure that you walk him as late as possible in the evening so that he empties himself fully. Regarding midday breaks, again, let's see if this resolves the problem and then take it from there.

    As a new dog owner, the leadership role is very important to the well being of the dog. Very few dogs are genetically Alphas. They prefer to have someone in control giving them direction. I think it would be wise to speak with the rescue or the vet, and find out who has the best training classes in your areas. Since you haven't owned a dog, taking those classes should relax you and teach you how to take on the leadership role properly. It will be a great bonding experience for you and the dog, and will allow you to see the practical application of giving him direction with positive reinforcement methods.
    labman's Avatar
    labman Posts: 10,580, Reputation: 551
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    #15

    Aug 15, 2007, 07:18 AM
    Check the times, posts 11 and 12 were made while I was composing # 13. Usually any puppy past about 10 - 12 weeks will have very few accidents left in a crate overnight or 4-5 hours in the day time if it received good early care. Since I seldom ask a puppy to go longer, I really can't say of they can, although I do know many people do leave puppies longer than that.

    A picky eater that fails to eat what it needs in 15 minutes, is nearly always over fed. Careful studies have proven that over feeding shortens life. Have you seen this link, LongLiveYourDog.com - Life Span Study - Rate Your Dog A regular feeding schedule and the proper amount should help your dog.

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