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    linnealand's Avatar
    linnealand Posts: 1,088, Reputation: 216
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    #1

    Jul 14, 2008, 07:47 AM
    Retained testicle and neutering!
    We took our 10 week old english cocker spaniel puppy to the vet yesterday to get the 2nd part of his shots.

    Unfortunately, at this time he still has a retained testicle. We're really hoping it's going to come down.

    We asked the vet what he recommends in terms of neutering, and the vet said that if the testicle does not drop that he would like to remove that one. When we asked about removing both of them, he looked kind of shocked and basically said not to do it.

    When we asked our breeder if she recommends neutering, she also looked shocked and said absolutely not.

    This puppy is the son of the reigning young european champion of the breed, and he comes from an incredible line of pups on both sides. Undoubtedly, this pooch has some amazing qualities. Still, if the testicle does not drop we won't be able to breed him anyway because retained testicles are genetic.

    Like I said, we're really hoping this testicle falls into place.

    It looks to me like this is a cultural issue (we're in italy), but as an american I have always known people to push for spaying and neutering fanatically. We're really confused about what to do.

    Any thoughts on this situation would be greatly appreciated!
    N0help4u's Avatar
    N0help4u Posts: 19,823, Reputation: 2035
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    #2

    Jul 14, 2008, 07:54 AM
    I don't see a need to rush into getting a dog spayed or neutered right away.
    Since they are retracted it would be a more complex surgical procedure.
    Give him time to see if they drop and then consider the pro's and cons
    I know with girl dogs they should be spayed between their second heat and 6 yrs old.
    linnealand's Avatar
    linnealand Posts: 1,088, Reputation: 216
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    #3

    Jul 14, 2008, 11:40 AM
    Yes, I didn't mention this, but if he is going to be neutered it won't be before he's 6 months old. We've been asking for information, more than anything for advice that comes from experience. I know that there's a lot of information online that gives all kinds of reasons for doing it, like lessening the drive to run away, some testaments to lowered aggression, etc.). I know that dog over-population is also a major factor, but I don't know if it's as much of an issue with high-level pure-breds (also with all kinds of things cleared and okayed by genetic test results, etc.). I'm wondering if there are dog owners out there who have not neutered their male dogs and have either been very happy about it or otherwise regretted it.

    Also, if the testicle doesn't drop, I understand that it's often advised to remove it because of the augmented potential for developing testicular cancer. But I also wonder if this is really the case, or if it's kind of like when I got my wisdom teeth pulled when it wasn't really necessary - not to say that leaving wisdom teeth in can be fatal, but I have known a doctor or two who has done extra to try to make an extra buck. Then if we do what the vet recommends, he would be keeping the dropped testicle, but he would never be able to consummate. I don't know if that would make it better or worse for him. Anyway, if any of you have had a real reason to go in one direction or another, I would love to hear what the results were.
    N0help4u's Avatar
    N0help4u Posts: 19,823, Reputation: 2035
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    #4

    Jul 14, 2008, 11:45 AM
    What the vet told me when my dog got cancer was that you need to have your dog fixed by the time they turn 6 years old to cut down the chances of cancer.
    mydogquestion's Avatar
    mydogquestion Posts: 232, Reputation: 21
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    #5

    Jul 14, 2008, 04:11 PM
    Since your pup is ten weeks you have time for the testicle to drop.I would not rush into surgery but the risks of cancer are greater. If it does not drop he will not be able to breed any registered pups as you have stated .And if you were going to remove the undesended one why not both. They do make plastic replacements for males dogs to look intact.
    I have a GSD that at 6 months had only the only desended and since he was non-breedable and the risk of the excess heat being a canccer risk he was neutered. The cost at my vet was a bit higher than just a regular neuter but he was home the next day.

    I would wait until about six monthsbefore deciding. This gives you time to talk to another vet. I am surprised the breeder was againist the neuter since the trait is genitic. My breeder offered to replace my dog. Which I did not do as I love him with or without testicles!
    linnealand's Avatar
    linnealand Posts: 1,088, Reputation: 216
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    #6

    Jul 14, 2008, 07:31 PM
    Thanks. As I stated earlier, we have no desire or reason to consider neutering, if we do it at all, before 6 months. This is my second dog, and my first dog had the same problem - only 1 testicle in place - but I was a kid, so I didn't make any of the decisions. His testicle never came in. on our new puppy, the breeder said she could feel the other testicle. I know that it took until about 5 weeks for the first one to come down.

    It's interesting that the breeder offered to replace the pup. We have been visiting with our puppy since birth. The hard part was that we decided not to dock the tail, so we had to decide which one to keep the day he was born. It's like destiny - there was no going back.

    Nohelp4u - that's sad. Was it testicular cancer?

    Our breeder had us pay about 22% less than the normal asking price, but I don't know if that's how it's supposed to be done.

    Also, are there any things that could help this testicle to drop? I mean other than praying... :)
    bushg's Avatar
    bushg Posts: 3,433, Reputation: 596
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    #7

    Jul 14, 2008, 08:05 PM
    I know that dog over-population is also a major factor, but I don't know if it's as much of an issue with high-level pure-breds


    Get on petfinder.com and you will see how many pure breed dogs are there for a small adoption fee, Google up some of the breeds and you will find 100's or 1000's of dogs that need homes that are in breed specific rescues. Being pruebred and having money to buy a dog does not mean that those dogs will have forever homes.

    The first dog that I ever owned did not get neutered until he was almost 2... he was a mutt not a purebred I'm not sure exactly how much being a pure bred matters. I knew nothing about testicular cancer. The older he got the more aggressive he became, yes neutering him helped but not enough..
    His behavior could have been genetic, it could have been the way he was treated before he came to me, it could have been my lack of dog knowledge and understanding on how to train.
    I will tell you that he was like a caged lion from about 8 months on, Since him I have become pretty involved with dogs and I have seen this behavior with mutts as well as purebred dogs that people have paid up to 800 hundred dollars for.

    I truly believe that when a person leaves their dog intact, a dog that they want to keep until the dog is old and gray,I really think that they are taking too many chances that I would just not be willing to take.

    I'm not saying that I would jump out and neuter him ASAP but if he were mine he would be neutered at 1 year of age or if he did not seem to be raging hormones then I would wait until for a while longer... I have been reading information that suggest that for their internal development that waitng could be better for their overall health and life span.


    Good luck in whatever choice you make.
    carolbcac's Avatar
    carolbcac Posts: 342, Reputation: 72
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    #8

    Jul 14, 2008, 08:14 PM
    There's definitely an increased risk of testicular cancer in retained testicles, related to the higher heat inside the body. He could still breed with one testicle, but why pass on an undesirable genetic trait? I am surprised that both the vet & breeder advised against a complete neuter. Many breeds have been harmed because a popular dog was overused in breeding programs. Desirable traits are often linked to other, undesirable ones. The breeder should be looking beyond her own line (or at least using only males from that line that do not have the retained testicle problem) for the good of the breed overall.
    mydogquestion's Avatar
    mydogquestion Posts: 232, Reputation: 21
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    #9

    Jul 14, 2008, 09:10 PM
    Was the price lower because of this? If so perhaps they have had this before. Are you planning on breeding this dog? If not why wouldn't you neuter?

    Check with the vet on things you can do to help. Some people recommend massaging to get it to drop. But this will not help if it is not in the right position. If it is in the abdomen behind another organ it could cause other issues.
    linnealand's Avatar
    linnealand Posts: 1,088, Reputation: 216
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    #10

    Jul 14, 2008, 09:30 PM
    That's exactly what I've been trying to express with this cultural question. It's not about the puppy being neutered at a certain point in time - the vet and the breeder don't believe in neutering unless there is a specific (and probably very unusual) reason to do so. Truly, I see LOTS and LOTS of intact dogs here (in all kinds of dogs). I don't know why neutering is so popular in the states but so unpopular here. I really would love to know what this is about.

    Also, we hadn't planned on using the puppy to sire, especially because we were seriously considering neutering, but if he were to grow into a true show dog, we would have at least considered the possibility. If he does not drop the testicle, we will not worry about losing the option to show him because it is not something we're fixated on - he really is our family, first and last.

    The breeder told us that she's obsessed with testicles, and she breeds them for show, so I don't believe that she would be using dogs that have shown this problem in the past. It looks like she has enough champions to choose from, not being desperate for one certain dog. We've seen all of the dogs on many, many occasions, and they really are stunning. Still, I wish I knew where the trait might have come from. I know that this was the mother's third litter (she's 6 now), and the father is still very young (3 years old). I won't claim to be an expert in breeding for sure. One of the things that attracted us to this breeder is that her dogs are genetically tested, we didn't see a crumb of aggression in a single one of them (and we had to have gone there about a dozen times in 2 months), and they've won very prestigious awards in both exhibitions and sporting competitions (we liked this because we didn't want a beautiful but frail or physically delicate dog). I guess there are always unknowns in any breeding. Well, your posts are going into our thoughts. The more information we have, the better our chances are of making the right choice.
    mydogquestion's Avatar
    mydogquestion Posts: 232, Reputation: 21
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    #11

    Jul 15, 2008, 05:19 AM
    From my understanding there are contributing factors for this in both the sire and the dam and the genetics they bring. There are arguments on both sides as to which parent passes this on. It is more frequent in pure breds versus mutts. And many feel that it is from both sire and dam.

    But there are other medical concerns. You have time to wait and see.
    Merricat's Avatar
    Merricat Posts: 32, Reputation: 5
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    #12

    Aug 17, 2008, 07:49 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by N0help4u
    I don't see a need to rush into getting a dog spayed or neutered right away.
    since they are retracted it would be a more complex surgical procedure.
    Give him time to see if they drop and then consider the pro's and cons
    I know with girl dogs they should be spayed between their second heat and 6 yrs old.
    WRONG!! Retained testicles often become cancerous. If the testicles have not dropped by 6 months of age, they should be removed. This is scientific fact. This is not an opinion.

    Oh, and the reason we push for spaying and neutering? We can PREVENT cancer. For males, we can completely eliminate testicular cancer and greatly reduce prostate, urethral, bladder and mammary cancer. In females, we elimiante ovarian/uterine cancer and reduce cervical, bladder and mammary cancer. We don't push it because it's fun.
    In Europe, where they DO NOT routinely spay and neuter, the rates of these cancers are much higher than in the US.
    Merricat's Avatar
    Merricat Posts: 32, Reputation: 5
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    #13

    Aug 17, 2008, 07:56 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by linnealand
    thanks. as i stated earlier, we have no desire or reason to consider neutering, if we do it at all, before 6 months. this is my second dog, and my first dog had the same problem - only 1 testicle in place - but i was a kid, so i didn't make any of the decisions. his testicle never came in. on our new puppy, the breeder said she could feel the other testicle. i know that it took until about 5 weeks for the first one to come down.

    it's interesting that the breeder offered to replace the pup. we have been visiting with our puppy since birth. the hard part was that we decided not to dock the tail, so we had to decide which one to keep the day he was born. it's like destiny - there was no going back.

    nohelp4u - that's sad. was it testicular cancer?

    our breeder had us pay about 22% less than the normal asking price, but i don't know if that's how it's supposed to be done.

    also, are there any things that could help this testicle to drop? i mean other than praying... :)
    They had you pay less because this is a genetically passed on trait that is extremely undesirable in the breed and the dog should not be bred.
    Merricat's Avatar
    Merricat Posts: 32, Reputation: 5
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    #14

    Aug 17, 2008, 07:59 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by linnealand
    that's exactly what i've been trying to express with this cultural question.

    also, we hadn't planned on using the puppy to sire, especially because we were seriously considering neutering, but if he were to grow into a true show dog, we would have at least considered the possibility. if he does not drop the testicle, we will not worry about losing the option to show him because it is not something we're fixated on - he really is our family, first and last.

    .

    You can't show a dog with this problem.
    beebeecee's Avatar
    beebeecee Posts: 44, Reputation: 13
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    #15

    Aug 17, 2008, 09:09 PM
    My opinon is this - from a health perspective a retained testicle is bad news. If the dog is really from excellent quality bloodlines that's no reason not to get him neutered because it matters less who his parents are than what qualities he has that can improve the breed.

    10 weeks old is pretty young to decide, I would wait until 6-9 months and if the testicle still hasn't dropped I would definitely netuer because the pup's life and health would be worth more to me than the possibility of unknown puppies at some distant point in the future. Not to mention - a retained testicle is disqualifying for showing, so if he were to not have it descend and you wanted to not neuter him he wouldn't be able to be shown or really evaluated other than by you or the breeder and it can be an emotional decision but that fact - the dog can't be shown, is enough reason not to breed because there are rules like "no male dogs with undescended testicles" for a very good reason.
    N0help4u's Avatar
    N0help4u Posts: 19,823, Reputation: 2035
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    #16

    Aug 18, 2008, 07:50 AM
    Sounds like she hasn't decided that she doesn't want to breed her show dog that can't be in dog shows so my suggestion was meant as wait a couple months or so and then have it all taken care of instead of jumping into it at a couple months old.
    Not sure How my saying no need to rush into it meaning like within the next month or so
    Is more wrong than beebeecee saying wait until 6 to 9 months, yet merricat is giving a 6 month or cancer risk warning. Sounds inconsistent to me!

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