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    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #41

    Jul 6, 2012, 07:12 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, Steve:

    MY logic? Dude! You DID hit upon a universal truth, even IF you used twisted logic to get there.

    If robbery ISN'T a problem, of course you shouldn't be worried about it...
    Only a paranoid society makes laws against things that DON'T happen and NEVER did.

    But, robbery IS a problem, of course, whereas the sky falling, I mean fraudulent voting ISN'T. I say again, SHOW me where you've been robbed, I mean where somebody FRAUDULENTLY voted, and I'll put in my worst pitchers..

    excon
    So there is no voter fraud so don't worry keeping our elections honest. In other words, being vigilant to maintain the integrity of the vote is just plain silly.
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    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #42

    Jul 6, 2012, 07:17 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    REGISTERING to vote is one issue. Yes, the person registering to vote needs to show a picture ID (so they know that's him) plus at least two forms of ID to prove his residence, where he sleeps at night. In Illinois (and probably in most other states), a voter has to reregister with a new address if he moves. Registration/reregistration is closed a month before an election. I've registered and reregistered thousands of people while working in Libraryland.

    At that point, the voter's name goes down on the rolls at the county election commissioner's office. That list is what the election judges have in front of them when I go to my polling place to vote. I say who I am and tell where I live (no ID is asked for), and my name is checked off. If my name isn't there at that address, I will be sent home without voting.

    People who've moved and live at a new address used to not be allowed to vote, although now I think my state allows reregistering on the spot at the polling place. Because of early voting, registering with proper ID may be allowed now too.
    We know how it works Carol, but I have never once been allowed to vote without them requiring me to present my voter registration card or a valid ID to prove I am who I say am. What's the big deal?

    It's silly as hell to me for anyone like ex and our own DoJ to fight tooth and nail against maintaining the integrity of our elections. When did honesty and integrity cease to be a virtue?
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    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #43

    Jul 6, 2012, 07:20 AM
    Wow! I NEVER have been asked to provide ID at the polling place. I've even offered and was told no. My name was checked off on the big list.
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #44

    Jul 6, 2012, 07:29 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    In other words, being vigilant to maintain the integrity of the vote is just plain silly.
    Hello again, Steve:

    When there's absolutely NO evidence whatsoever, of the integrity of our vote being BREACHED, then yes, worrying about it IS silly.

    You make it sound like there's NO protections at all - that ANYBODY can just waltz in and vote.. You seem to forget the registration process. You need to show ID to register. If Jose showed up at the polls and wasn't registered, he can't vote.

    Here's another thing that's silly. You think that an illegal alien, who's afraid of being deported, who won't file a tax return to get his withholding taxes back, would gleefully walk into a government space and put his LIBERTY at risk to cast a fraudulent vote... Thinking that THAT is a plausible scenario is UNBELIEVABLY silly..

    excon
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #45

    Jul 6, 2012, 07:29 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    Wow! I NEVER have been asked to provide ID at the polling place. I've even offered and was told no. My name was checked off on the big list.
    Been voting since 1978 and have always had to present one or the other. Then they check me off the big list. I don't get what the big deal is.
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    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #46

    Jul 6, 2012, 07:50 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, Steve:

    When there's absolutely NO evidence whatsoever, of the integrity of our vote being BREACHED, then yes, worrying about it IS silly.

    You make it sound like there's NO protections at all. That ANYBODY can just waltz in and vote.. You seem to forget the registration process. You need to show ID to register. If Jose showed up at the polls and wasn't registered, he can't vote.

    Here's another thing that's silly. You think that an illegal alien, who's afraid of being deported, who won't file a tax return to get his withholding taxes back, would gleefully walk into a government space and put his LIBERTY at risk to cast a fraudulent vote... Thinking that THAT is a plausible scenario is UNBELIEVABLE silly..

    Excon

    Sunland Park ex-employees indicted for voter fraud


    Democrat admits role in voter fraud case

    Former Troy City Clerk William A. McInerney pleaded guilty Friday to a charge that he signed a voter's signature to a Working Families Party absentee primary ballot in 2009 to steer the vote to his Democratic Party candidates...

    Working Family Party voters were targeted in 2009. Some were not fluent in English, and one is deaf. Besides forging voters' signatures, there are allegations that candidates and party workers wrote fictitious reasons on the ballot applications for why the person could not vote at the polls.

    State Police arrested McInerney Aug. 8 on 10 felony counts accusing him of handling forged absentee-ballot applications for Democratic and Working Families voters in 2007 and 2008. Smith said those counts pending in Troy City Court will be dropped when McInerney is sentenced at a later date.

    In January, the grand jury indicted Democratic Elections Commissioner Edward McDonough and Councilman Michael LoPorto on 116 counts of forgery and falsifying business records. Both pleaded not guilty and await trial.

    McDonough and LoPorto are among nine Democrats identified by the special prosecutor in previous legal papers as part of the ballot-fraud probe.

    Also named are Council President Clement Campana; Councilmen John Brown, Gary Galuski and Kevin McGrath; and party operatives Dan Brown, who is John Brown's brother, and Anthony DeFiglio, a former Troy Housing Authority clerk.
    Related...

    Officials Plead Guilty in New York Voter Fraud Case


    Numerous voters told Fox News that they were stunned that their signatures were faked on absentee ballot applications and ballots, which were cast as real votes in their names in the 2009 primary election.

    Brian Suozzo's absentee ballot application claimed that he was "at home recovering from medical procedure," which he told us was not true.

    "Someone took my signature and voted with it and I feel extremely violated," Suozzo said when Fox News first broke the story nationally in 2009. "The whole thing seems dirty to me."...

    In November 2009, Democratic operative Anthony DeFiglio told New York State police investigators that faking absentee ballots was a commonplace and accepted practice in political circles, all intended to swing an election.

    "This is an on-going scheme and it occurs on both sides of the aisle," he told police. "The people who are targeted live in low-income housing and there is a sense that they are a lot less likely to ask any questions."

    He said that "it was common knowledge that these people were never going to receive an absentee ballot. This is a political strategy to get control of a third party line."
    Davis shifts on voter ID

    Artur Davis's voice is a pretty meaningful one in this debate:

    The truth is that the most aggressive contemporary voter suppression in the African American community, at least in Alabama, is the wholesale manufacture of ballots, at the polls and absentee, in parts of the Black Belt.

    Voting the names of the dead, and the nonexistent, and the too-mentally-impaired to function, cancels out the votes of citizens who are exercising their rights -- that's suppression by any light.
    If you doubt it exists, I don't; I've heard the peddlers of these ballots brag about it, I've been asked to provide the funds for it, and I am confident it has changed at least a few close local election results.

    There is no question that a voter ID law, in order to pass legal muster and in order to be just, must have certain characteristics. It should contain exceptions for the elderly or disabled who may not drive, and as a consequence lack the most conventional ID, a driver's license. There should also be a process for non-drivers to obtain a photo ID, and the process has to be cost-free, for the simple reason that even a nominal financial impediment to voting looks and feels too much like a poll tax.
    Next?

    P.S. Plenty of illegals file tax returns, too. The IRS makes it easy for them.

    Illegal Aliens Receive Billions in IRS Tax Benefits

    On July 7, 2011, the U.S. Department of Treasury's inspector general for tax administration issued a startling report entitled “Individuals Who Are Not Authorized to Work in the United States Were Paid $4.2 Billion in Refundable Credits.”

    No wonder the nation’s finances are in turmoil.

    According to the Treasury report, foreign nationals not authorized to work in the United States and ineligible for a Social Security Number (SSN) are nevertheless receiving government help from the Internal Revenue Service (IRS). The IRS currently issues undocumented aliens an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN) to facilitate their filing of tax returns.

    Many illegal workers are paid in cash “under the table” and thus file no tax forms at all; but a number of undocumented workers, according to the Treasury report, are receiving public benefits contrary to federal and state laws.

    For example, the Child Tax Credit (CTC) and the Additional Child Tax Credit (ACTC) allow payment of federal funds as tax benefits to undocumented aliens. Add to these the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC), and the result is tax refunds that provide incentives for foreign nationals to enter, reside, and work in the United States without authorization and in violation of current U.S. immigration law.

    The CTC, ACTC, and EITC have come under review because of the significant volume of Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN) returns filing for these credits using fraudulent data, such as names and SSNs.

    The Treasury report notes that the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 (ARRA) temporarily increased ACTC eligibility by changing the income threshold for calculating the credits in 2009 and 2010. The result was that in 2010, undocumented alien (ITIN) filers were able to claim higher tax refunds that totaled $4.2 billion. They represent an increase from $924 million in 2005.

    It is clear that unauthorized aliens are filing ITIN tax returns with fraudulent data. The Treasury report found that “One common type of fraudulent refund involves taxpayers fabricating a Wage and Tax Statement (Form W-2) that shows excess withholding and results in a tax refund.”

    Street-smart illegal immigrants are wise to the federal government’s incompetence.
    Every one of your objections has been put to rest, so give it up dude. If one person casts a vote illegally that cancels my legal vote and as Davis put it, "that's suppression by any light."
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #47

    Jul 6, 2012, 07:56 AM
    But it isn't the illegal immigrants themselves defrauding. It's politicians doing it. So how would my showing ID at the polling place counter that?
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #48

    Jul 6, 2012, 08:04 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    Wow! I NEVER have been asked to provide ID at the polling place. I've even offered and was told no. My name was checked off on the big list.
    Here in bluest of blue NY ,they make us sign our name into a log book that has a duplicate of the last signature provided the last time we voted. The poll watchers look at the signature for obvious discrepencies. Sometimes they will ask for secondary documents.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #49

    Jul 6, 2012, 08:12 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    Here in bluest of blue NY ,they make us sign our name into a log book that has a duplicate of the last signature provided the last time we voted. The poll watchers look at the signature for obvious discrepencies. Sometimes they will ask for secondary documents.
    What about absentee ballots? Signature on the application? That's the case in Illinois.
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #50

    Jul 6, 2012, 08:13 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    But it isn't the illegal immigrants themselves defrauding. It's politicians doing it. So how would my showing ID at the polling place counter that?
    The argument at the moment is voter fraud, does that not count? If Joe Schmoe had to prove he was those 11 people he voted as fraudulently, he'd have to have 11 IDs would he not?
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #51

    Jul 6, 2012, 08:14 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    Every one of your objections has been put to rest, so give it up dude.
    Hello again, Steve:

    Let's get real.. Did I expect that you'd be able to come up with ISOLATED cases of voter fraud?? Of course, I did. Does it change the thrust of my argument?? Of course, it doesn't.

    Here's a link of my own: in this voter ID study, voter fraud is even RARER than the odds of winning Mega Millions

    excon
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    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #52

    Jul 6, 2012, 08:15 AM
    But is wasn't Joe. It was Blagojevich and thousands of voter names.
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    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #53

    Jul 6, 2012, 08:29 AM
    Lol Named after Associate Justice William J Brennan, Jr.;one of the most radical progressive members of the Supreme Court in history. Sort of gives you an idea of their slant. From WIKI Justice Brennan's idea of a living constitution figures largely into the center's work

    If you look at the cartoon added to their report ,you can clearly see that they had preconceived outcome in mind.
    The Truth About Fraud
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #54

    Jul 6, 2012, 08:36 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, Steve:

    Let's get real.. Did I expect that you'd be able to come up with ISOLATED cases of voter fraud??? Of course, I did. Does it change the thrust of my argument???? Of course, it doesn't.

    Here's a link of my own: in this voter ID study, voter fraud is even RARER than the odds of winning Mega Millions

    excon
    Did I not make myself clear? One fraudulent vote cancels my legitimate vote. Works that way for you too, buddy. You may not care if your vote counts or not but I do.

    I wanted to count on you to keep your word but no, you keep changing the terms.
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    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #55

    Jul 6, 2012, 08:45 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    Did I not make myself clear? One fraudulent vote cancels my legitimate vote. Works that way for you too, buddy. You may not care if your vote counts or not but I do.
    Hello again, Steve:

    We're on the same page. It bums me out too, when, and or/if somebody casts a fraudulent vote in opposition to mine. But, when the cure cancels out the vote of many hundreds of thousands of legitimate voters, on balance, I'd be willing to suffer the loss of just mine.

    excon
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    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #56

    Jul 6, 2012, 08:50 AM
    I believe tom has already answered those objections quite thoroughly, so now we're back to square one?
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #57

    Jul 6, 2012, 08:59 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    I believe tom has already answered those objections quite thoroughly, so now we're back to square one?
    Hello again, Steve:

    He did?? What did he say? That poor people WITHOUT the proper ID can pick them up downtown? What's the big deal?? So what if you don't drive? You can learn - even if you're 85. It doesn't cost too much. So what if you don't have a birth certificate? You can get one, maybe..

    Then there's the MAJORITY of the states that DO charge for the new ID on top of all those other hurdles... Nahhh... Many hundreds of thousands of American citizens will be DENIED their right to vote if these Jim Crow laws continue. That IS the intention of these laws. Either you KNOW it, or you're too ashamed to admit it.

    So, if tom addressed it somewhere, I'm addressing it back.

    excon
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    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #58

    Jul 6, 2012, 09:17 AM
    I already linked to their ability to get an id mail order . Yes I've answered all the objections.. For at least Pennsylania... your concerns are misplaced . I have not reseached every other state . My solution would be a national photo id... but I understand that in our system ;States run elections and are permitted to make rules ,that don't violate the voting rights act . If this law is unconstitutional take it to court . Have Holder file charges .

    Give me the state you want me to research and I'll get back to you on the charge that the Majority of them have no provisions for free photo id. Your posting was about PA. I gave you all the facts about PA and threw in RI for a bonus.
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    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #59

    Jul 6, 2012, 09:23 AM
    Right, so Artur Davis, noted black Democrat formerly representing Alabama's 7the district in the House, changed his mind and is now FOR Jim Crow laws.

    You drank the koolaid, come on - admit it.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #60

    Jul 6, 2012, 09:29 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    Been voting since 1978 and have always had to present one or the other. Then they check me off the big list. I don't get what the big deal is.
    I think Metts put his finger on the big deal .

    "Historically, when Black people know the rules of the game they follow them to the letter and participate in the process. I take exception to those who give credence to stereotypes about our alleged inability or limited intelligence to participate in the democratic process. Moreover, as a candidate, I will make certain that those supporting me have a voter I.D. or know about the provisional ballot."
    .

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