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    jillianleab's Avatar
    jillianleab Posts: 1,194, Reputation: 279
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    #41

    Nov 30, 2007, 02:44 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by speechlesstx
    What exactly is "age appropriate" and what exactly is "experience appropriate" in kindergarten? And absolutely if they do provide sex ed in school parents should be able to opt out, but PP doesn't seem to believe parents should have any say so.
    I agree, I wish they would publicize their plans for education through the years, it certainly would make it easier to agree/disagree with it. I mean, I see no problem teaching young kids about the human body and so on (as I outlined in my other post) but perhaps other people have a different idea. It's important to know.

    Of course that's your prerogative, but knowing what I do about PP, I believe they are one of the most destructive, subversive organizations in the world and I would never, under any circumstance knowingly allow a child of mine to get ANYTHING from them. I care more about people than to trust anything of any of any importance to that group. Besides my other objections, here's my number one reason why - had it not been for PP my daughter might be healthy and we might have a grandchild. I can only imagine how many others have been through as much thanks in part to their attitude and their ineptitude.
    I know, I remember your mention of your experience with PP involving your daughter, and it's really a tragedy such a thing happened. Nothing I, or anyone else can say is going to redeem the organization to you, and that's fine. I just happen to look at the organization and their misson in a different way. Are there going to be mistakes? Bad employees? Corrupt branches? As with any large corporation - of course. But I don't think that makes the mission of the over all organization bad. PP deals with people who have already MADE their choices and as a result are in a bad position. Given the nature of their work and the controversy surrounding it (not just abortion, but also handing out condoms, birth control) they are bound to make enemies.

    I thought that was self explanatory, isn't "abstinence" the same as "not doing it?"
    Well now I have to sound like Bill Clinton... :o It depends on what the definition is "it" is. Sorry, I couldn't help myself. Seriously though, "doing it" is commonly thought of as "having sex"; "it" is intercourse. So abstinence is the same as "not doing it" but "not doing it" is not the same as abstinence. If abstinence is abstaining from ALL sex play, that includes "doing it". NOT "doing it" only means NOT having intercourse, which is not, by definition, abstinence. Now maybe this is getting too far into semantics and linguistics and logic than you care to go, but forgive me, I'm taking a logic class so I've been thinking this way for a grade for three months now! :) I could probably go into a long explanation about necessary condition and blah blah blah if you really want, but it's probably not that important!
    asking's Avatar
    asking Posts: 2,673, Reputation: 660
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    #42

    Nov 30, 2007, 02:55 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jillianleab
    I know, I remember your mention of your experience with PP involving your daughter, and it's really a tragedy such a thing happened. Nothing I, or anyone else can say is going to redeem the organization to you, and that's fine. I just happen to look at the organization and their misson in a different way. Are there going to be mistakes? Bad employees? Corrupt branches? As with any large corporation - of course. But I don't think that makes the mission of the over all organization bad. PP deals with people who have already MADE their choices and as a result are in a bad position. Given the nature of their work and the controversy surrounding it (not just abortion, but also handing out condoms, birth control) they are bound to make enemies.
    I just wanted to agree, but for some reason can't rate your post. AMDH seems to be acting weird today for me. Anyway, I like this. You made some good points throughout this thread.
    Asking
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    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #43

    Nov 30, 2007, 03:00 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jillianleab
    I agree, I wish they would publicize their plans for education through the years, it certainly would make it easier to agree/disagree with it. I mean, I see no problem teaching young kids about the human body and so on (as I outlined in my other post) but perhaps other people have a different idea. It's important to know.
    Sure, in spite of my experience I would at least have some respect for them if they would be open instead of purposely vague. We have these opinion page wars here several times a year where the local chapter comes out and preaches their virtues while denying any role in abortions, and that's dishonest and despicable. I know better. We all know better, so why deny it?

    Well now I have to sound like Bill Clinton... :o
    I guess that makes two of us (please don't tell anyone I borrowed from Clinton ) :D
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    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #44

    Nov 30, 2007, 03:02 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by asking
    I just wanted to agree, but for some reason can't rate your post. AMDH seems to be acting weird today for me. Anyway, I like this. You made some good points throughout this thread.
    Asking
    I don't think you get to rate people on the member discussion board, just the question boards :)
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    jillianleab Posts: 1,194, Reputation: 279
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    #45

    Nov 30, 2007, 03:25 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by speechlesstx
    Sure, in spite of my experience I would at least have some respect for them if they would be open instead of purposely vague. We have these opinion page wars here several times a year where the local chapter comes out and preaches their virtues while denying any role in abortions, and that's dishonest and despicable. I know better. We all know better, so why deny it?
    I'll admit, I have no personal experience with PP, which is why I say I agree with their mission, because I think the IDEA is a great one. The execution? I think that's going to depend on the circumstance and the parties involved. Based on what I've seen on their site, however, they provide factual, clear, honest information about sexual and reproductive health, and I think that's a GREAT thing. There are far too many websites out there with bad information on them, at least you can be assured if a teen (or adult)goes to PP's site and looks up anal sex they'll find out they can still contract STDs. If your local chapter is denying they perform abortions that is dishonest and should certainly be looked into by the higher ups in the organization. PP exists, they do what they do, there's no reason to lie about it. I think most pro-life people would agree it's worse for them to do abortions and LIE than to do them and just be honest.

    I guess that makes two of us (please don't tell anyone I borrowed from Clinton ) :D
    'scuze me, I have to make a run to the politics board... :D
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    asking Posts: 2,673, Reputation: 660
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    #46

    Nov 30, 2007, 03:58 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by speechlesstx
    I don't think you get to rate people on the member discussion board, just the question boards :)
    Thanks. So since I'm relatively new, in what other ways is it different?
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    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #47

    Nov 30, 2007, 06:00 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by asking
    Thanks. So since I'm relatively new, in what other ways is it different?
    This is kind of where we can let it all hang out, the lounge if you will. Post an article, get a little silly - things not specifically for a Q&A format on specific topics.
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    asking Posts: 2,673, Reputation: 660
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    #48

    Nov 30, 2007, 06:14 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by speechlesstx
    This is kind of where we can let it all hang out, the lounge if you will. Post an article, get a little silly - things not specifically for a Q&A format on specific topics.
    Ah. That explains a lot! I was still in ask-an-actual-question, stick-to-the-facts answer mode. I see now I wandered into a new place.:)
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    Synnen Posts: 7,927, Reputation: 2443
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    #49

    Nov 30, 2007, 06:25 PM
    I'd just like to say that PP probably saved my butt as a teen.

    My mother would NOT talk to me about sex--her whole stance (and the stance of millions of parents of teens everywhere) was simply "don't have sex. Period."

    I wasn't asking her permission.

    I knew the risks of having sex, and wanted to reduce those risks. My mother would not take me to the doctor, talk to me about the feelings I was having (sexual and emotional) because she felt that at 16 I was still a little girl (she was a mother at my age, btw) and didn't need to know about it.

    Planned Parenthood got me on birth control, explained about my monthly cycle, explained how pregnancy happened, and explained the different forms of birth control, the reasons that birth control fails, and ways to protect myself, not only from pregnancy and STDs, but from being coerced into having sex before I was ready.

    My abstinence-focused sex education in the public school, in the middle school and high school levels, was basically--don't have sex. If you have sex, you'll get this disease (show picture), this disease (show another picture) and pregnant.

    When I *did* become pregnant as a teen, PP walked me through ALL of my options, giving me contact information for adoption agencies and government agencies that would help me with raising my child if I chose to parent. At NO TIME did they EVER pressure me into an abortion, though they did let me know that was an option.

    Unlike my family (who pressured me to parent) and the adoption agency (whose money is made from ADOPTIVE parents--so getting their hands on babies was their JOB) who pressured me to choose adoption, and my boyfriend who pressured me to get an abortion--Planned Parenthood held me while I cried, and was there for me over the phone and in person when everything was too much for me.

    When I had no insurance in my 20s, PP made it possible for me to afford birth control.

    As far as abortions go--the only person who can decide whether an abortion is bad is the person HAVING it. Far too many Pro-Lifers have had abortions for me to take them seriously. Apparently the only moral abortion is the abortion that a pro-lifer is having, hmm?

    Just my pennies on this--but I can't believe that PP would promote abortion. Every experience I've ever had with them has me believing that they CARE about the health of women who can't get affordable care elsewhere, and they heavily promote safe sex/birth control. They PROVIDE abortions--I'm not denying that. But where else can you GET an abortion these days? If you really need one (and please--we all know of situations where getting an abortion is a valid choice), in many states Planned Parenthood is the ONLY provider of abortions.
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    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #50

    Dec 1, 2007, 05:38 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Synnen
    I'd just like to say that PP probably saved my butt as a teen.
    I'll be among the first pro-lifers to say PP does some good things, but I cannot tolerate their agenda.

    When I *did* become pregnant as a teen, PP walked me through ALL of my options, giving me contact information for adoption agencies and government agencies that would help me with raising my child if I chose to parent. At NO TIME did they EVER pressure me into an abortion, though they did let me know that was an option.
    I'm sure much has to do with the chapter one visits.

    As far as abortions go--the only person who can decide whether an abortion is bad is the person HAVING it. Far too many Pro-Lifers have had abortions for me to take them seriously. Apparently the only moral abortion is the abortion that a pro-lifer is having, hmm?
    That's a low blow on pro-lifers. How many of them had an abortion and regretted it? My daughter is one, she lives with the self-imposed guilt and regret every day, and I have sat with friends as they mourned what they had done decades earlier.

    Just my pennies on this--but I can't believe that PP would promote abortion.
    I guess you missed my statistics earlier, "PP reports 519,958 abortion procedures in their 2005-2006 annual report, a 9.4 percent increase over the 2002-2003 numbers, which were a 6.1 percent increase from the previous period."

    They claim to want to make abortions "rare" but the numbers keep going up. I find that inconsistent.
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    #51

    Dec 1, 2007, 07:04 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by speechlesstx
    I guess you missed my statistics earlier, "PP reports 519,958 abortion procedures in their 2005-2006 annual report, a 9.4 percent increase over the 2002-2003 numbers, which were a 6.1 percent increase from the previous period."

    They claim to want to make abortions "rare" but the numbers keep going up. I find that inconsistent.
    Reporting statistics does not mean they promote it - that's quite a reach there.
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    jillianleab Posts: 1,194, Reputation: 279
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    #52

    Dec 1, 2007, 10:40 AM
    speech, I think synnen was referring to this article:

    "The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion"

    When she said the only moral abortion is a pro-lifers abortion. I posted it on another thread a few months ago. By no means is it representative of ALL pro-lifers, but it does expose a double-standard that some of the most vocal protesters have.

    synnen, if that's not what you were referring to, sorry for interjecting!
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    Synnen Posts: 7,927, Reputation: 2443
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    #53

    Dec 1, 2007, 02:51 PM
    Yup... that's exactly it, Jillian.

    And while millions of women regret abortion---millions ALSO regret choosing adoption. I'm sure there are millions of parents that regret starting to parent as a teenager, too, but who could NEVER admit it because the censure of regretting having a kid is sooooo huge. No parent would EVER admit that having a child was something they regretted, no matter how much they loved the child--because loving a child and regretting the timing of it are 2 different things, you know.

    But--you never hear those statistics, because there's not an agenda behind them like there is for the pro-life group regarding the regrets of abortion.

    That isn't to say that the emotional pain of ANY of those women with regrets about the way a pregnancy ended up is not valid--because it is. But using personal emotional pain to push someone to make a decision different than your own is not the right answer either. Making people aware of the consequences of their choices is one thing--making people not HAVE your choice is something different entirely.

    As far as the number of abortions increasing--do you have the statistics about the number of pregnancies in general increasing? And the age groups involved? How about the statistics about single-parenthood increasing? And the statistics about the number of young mothers on welfare? How about the statistics on adoptions? Foster care? Child abuse by young mothers? Do you have statistics about the number of those women who didn't learn anything about birth control in school, because their school has an abstinence based program (and despite what you say--telling kids about birth control isn't telling them to have sex. That's like saying telling kids about McDonalds makes them fat)? Sure--the number of abortions may have increased--but the number of areas it was available may have increased, or the number of pregnancies in general may have increased. A stand-alone statistic about the number of abortions going up doesn't tell me the whole story. That's just a number that is used to upset and anger people--it's like saying the number of deaths due to some horrible irresponsible use of Q-tips has gone up 400% over last year--well, if there was only ONE last year, then all it takes is 4 more to make up 400%. Do you see what I mean? Statistics are numbers that mean nothing on their own. If 100 women had an abortion last year, then a 9% increase would mean that 9 more women had an abortion this year than last year. Sure, that's an increase... but without the statistics about how many more PREGNANCIES there were, the statistic means nothing.
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    asking Posts: 2,673, Reputation: 660
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    #54

    Dec 2, 2007, 03:35 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Synnen
    And while millions of women regret abortion---millions ALSO regret choosing adoption. I'm sure there are millions of parents that regret starting to parent as a teenager, too, but who could NEVER admit it because the censure of regretting having a kid is sooooo huge. No parent would EVER admit that having a child was something they regretted, no matter how much they loved the child--because loving a child and regretting the timing of it are 2 different things, you know.

    But--you never hear those statistics, because there's not an agenda behind them like there is for the pro-life group regarding the regrets of abortion.

    That isn't to say that the emotional pain of ANY of those women with regrets about the way a pregnancy ended up is not valid--because it is. But using personal emotional pain to push someone to make a decision different than your own is not the right answer either. Making people aware of the consequences of their choices is one thing--making people not HAVE your choice is something different entirely.
    Really nice post...
    Asking
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    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #55

    Dec 3, 2007, 06:46 AM
    Aborting children to save the planet
    SURVIVAL OF THE STUPIDEST
    Kathleen Parker

    Washington Post Writer's Group

    November 28, 2007

    Hey, did you hear the one about the woman who aborted her kid so she could save the planet?

    That's no joke, but Darwin must be chuckling somewhere.

    Toni Vernelli was one of two women recently featured in a London Daily Mail story about environmentalists who take their carbon footprint very, very seriously.

    So seriously, in fact, that Vernelli aborted a pregnancy and, by age 27, had herself sterilized. Baby-making, she says, is "selfish" and "all about maintaining your genetic line at the expense of the planet."

    Because Toni and her husband, Ed, are childless and vegan, they say they can justify one long-haul airplane trip per year and still remain carbon neutral.

    Sarah Irving is another like-minded nature-nurturer. She and fiancé Mark Hudson decided on him having a vasectomy to prevent the possibility of an inconvenient life interfering with their carbon-perfect ones.

    Those of us who have managed to see a pregnancy through to birth recognize the irony of these tales.

    If we're not saving the planet for our kids, for whom are we saving it? After we're all sterilized and aborted, who's going to appreciate the fact that global warming is, by golly, under control? Who's going to live to tell the tale?

    Tell me: When was the last time you read a good book by a polar bear?

    Human beings may unconsciously wish to maintain their genetic line, but that's not the reason most people have children. OK, most of us have children because we get pregnant. But otherwise, the planet -- glorious as it is -- is simply not that much fun with no one around.

    The authors of the newspaper story seemed to have a sense of something gone awry, but I don't share their nostalgia for "innocent eyes gazing up . . . with unconditional love" and "a little hand slipping into hers -- and a voice calling her Mummy."

    Those little pleasures are for all to cherish in their own private moments. Please.

    What I'm nostalgic for is sanity.

    The couples who choose abortion and sterilization may not save the planet, but they're saving the gene pool a mess o' trouble by purging their own from the mix. The Darwin Awards folks, who honor those who improve the species by accidentally removing themselves from it, will have to create a new category:

    People Too Narcissistic To Procreate.


    Far be it from me to suggest that people must have children to be content or to contribute to life on Earth. But abortion should never be confused with a selfless act. It is clearly the ultimate and most-vivid expression of the opposite.

    Raising children is quantifiably the most persistently unselfish act known to mankind, as millions of veterans of sleepless nights will attest. Parenthood is when "I" takes a backseat to "thou" -- when the infant-self submits to adulthood so that the real infant gets a necessary turn at the well of self-importance.

    Although I doubt there are many willing to sterilize themselves in order to reduce the size of their carbon footprint, such extreme materialism is the evolutionary product of our gradual commodification of human life.

    Suddenly, the unborn is of no greater importance than the contents of our recycling bin. Like Weight Watchers dieters substituting carbs for sugars, we trade off future members of the human race to neutralize insults to Earth's balance in the present.
    Here's how the mental calculation goes: Let's see, if I abort my child, maybe I can travel first-class to the United Nations Climate Change Conference in Bali.

    Is this the slippery slope that pro-lifers prophesied? Once such utilitarian concerns edge out our humanity -- and once human life is deemed to have no greater value than any other life form -- how long before we begin tidying up other inconveniences?

    Wouldn't it be helpful to eliminate some of the less productive members of society who, like the cows they no doubt eat, are emitting hazardous methane, one of the greenhouse gases that contribute to global warming?

    That seems an absurd projection, but then not long ago, so did the aborting of babies to thwart global warming.
    The deeply caring, meanwhile, are always the ones to watch. Tenderness, it has been said, leads to the gas chambers.

    On a lighter note, we might have avoided all such concerns if only the mothers of Toni, Ed, Sarah and Mark had been as "virtuous" as they are.




    Kathleen Parker can be reached at [email protected].
    Aborting children to save the planet -- OrlandoSentinel.com
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    NeedKarma Posts: 10,635, Reputation: 1706
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    #56

    Dec 3, 2007, 06:50 AM
    They are fanatics everywhere. They are not representative any group.
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    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #57

    Dec 3, 2007, 07:57 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by NeedKarma
    Reporting statistics does not mean they promote it - that's quite a reach there.
    NK, I searched and nowhere did I say PP promotes abortion, that was the words of the original article. Of course they don't "promote" abortion, they promote "reproductive health care." What I said was it is inconsistent to claim a goal of "making abortions rare" while the numbers of abortions they provide keep increasing. The statistics - directly from PP itself - don't lie.

    I also said it would be an interesting exercise to ask PP and the Sierra Club to take abortion off the table as a means of achieving their "global reproductive health" and "sustainable environment" goals and see what happens.
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    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #58

    Dec 3, 2007, 09:04 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Synnen
    Yup... that's exactly it, Jillian.
    Still a low blow to pro-lifers...

    "several abortions"
    "several cases"
    "a woman who had been a regular"
    "our share of anti-choice women"
    "a woman"
    "a patient"
    "this born-again Christian"
    "sister of a Dutch bishop"
    "a patient about ten years ago"
    "once had a German client"
    "her condom had broken so she had no choice"
    "A 21 year old woman and her mother"
    "a 37 year old woman"
    "We have anti-choice women in for abortions all the time"

    Exactly how many does that account for? There are hypocrites in every walk of life, but "a woman," "a patient," "this born-again Christian" and "several" is hardly representative of the pro-life movement, and I doubt many that do resort to an abortion are happy about it. In fact, it's more like the closing point makes, "On occasion, an abortion turns out to be a momentous, life-affirming experience."

    And while millions of women regret abortion---millions ALSO regret choosing adoption.
    Regret it how? Of not having had an abortion or regretting the decision not to keep the child?

    But--you never hear those statistics, because there's not an agenda behind them like there is for the pro-life group regarding the regrets of abortion.

    That isn't to say that the emotional pain of ANY of those women with regrets about the way a pregnancy ended up is not valid--because it is. But using personal emotional pain to push someone to make a decision different than your own is not the right answer either. Making people aware of the consequences of their choices is one thing--making people not HAVE your choice is something different entirely.
    I'm sorry but to me this is a no-brainer. How can anyone complain of an "agenda" of saving the life of a child and helping people avoid the guilt and regret of taking the life of their child? I was unaware that the pro-life agenda was "using personal emotional pain to push someone to make a decision." If you're speaking of me specifically all I am doing is relating my experience, which is the pain of sitting in an ICU unit praying for your daughter for weeks at a time and mourning the loss of what may be your only chance at holding a grandson or granddaughter. Darn right that's emotional pain and I care enough about others that I don't want them to go through that pain.

    To me that's far more noble than calling people that care about people "dangerous," "extremist" and labeling the taking of innocent life as "health care," or using asinine, fear-mongering articles such as this that misrepresent us entirely.

    As far as the number of abortions increasing--do you have the statistics about the number of pregnancies in general increasing? And the age groups involved? How about the statistics about single-parenthood increasing? And the statistics about the number of young mothers on welfare? How about the statistics on adoptions? Foster care? Child abuse by young mothers?
    I'm certain PP would have those statistics, they are masters at using them to their advantage while not only blaming abstinence education and obfuscating their role in the increase in teen pregnancies and such.

    Do you have statistics about the number of those women who didn't learn anything about birth control in school, because their school has an abstinence based program (and despite what you say--telling kids about birth control isn't telling them to have sex. That's like saying telling kids about McDonalds makes them fat)?
    To be fair, I don't know what the abstinence based education programs contain, but I'd bet BOTH sides have work to do on the education front. Neither side is going to solve anything with education, it's the culture that has to change which I've already said.

    Sure--the number of abortions may have increased--but the number of areas it was available may have increased, or the number of pregnancies in general may have increased. A stand-alone statistic about the number of abortions going up doesn't tell me the whole story. That's just a number that is used to upset and anger people--it's like saying the number of deaths due to some horrible irresponsible use of Q-tips has gone up 400% over last year--well, if there was only ONE last year, then all it takes is 4 more to make up 400%. Do you see what I mean? Statistics are numbers that mean nothing on their own. If 100 women had an abortion last year, then a 9% increase would mean that 9 more women had an abortion this year than last year. Sure, that's an increase... but without the statistics about how many more PREGNANCIES there were, the statistic means nothing.
    Come on Synnen, I didn't come here to "upset and anger people," although I'm not above a little ridicule for the two idiots in the original post that are excited about helping the environment through their abortion. :D

    519,958 abortion procedures, a 9.4 percent increase which were a 6.1 percent increase from the previous period is more than 4 more Q-tips. And as I've said for the third time now is inconsistent with the claim to want to make abortions "rare."
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    Synnen Posts: 7,927, Reputation: 2443
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    #59

    Dec 3, 2007, 06:52 PM
    The thing is--the desire to make abortions rare goes along with education.

    It's not up to ME to teach anyone's kids but my own morals. It's also not right for me to force my morals on the general populace (although--I think MY radical changes would make more of a change than the average persons; of course I do, they're MY changes!).

    While I agree that the original article is ridiculous--the idea of NOT having kids to save the earth isn't a bad one. Too many people have more kids than they can handle, and population just keeps getting huger and huger worldwide. The societal change that would make the greatest impact on stopping abortions is mandatory birth control for everyone age 12 and up--you hit puberty, and you're on birth control until you pass a test that shows you could be a decent parent. But--people scream out against that, saying that it violates their "rights" to have children. Sorry--I don't think having kids is a right. It's a privilege.

    As far as regrets with adoption--I've had regrets in both directions with mine, thanks. Sometimes I wish I HAD had an abortion, though the thought is only fleeting, simply because at least THEN I would have closure. Sometimes I wish I'd parented. More than anything, though, I regret that no one could possibly explain to me that being a birth parent would still hurt years later, and that no one NOT a birth parent would ever understand that.

    Regardless the reasons that SOME people have abortions, there ARE valid reasons to have one (like, for instance, extreme birth defects that would leave the child dead shortly after being born, or the mental/physical health of the mother was in danger). Not everyone who has had an abortion did it for "birth control". Because SOME people have valid reasons for abortion, it's necessary to leave the option open to ALL people.

    If you don't believe in abortion--great! Don't have one. Teach YOUR kids that it's wrong. Teach YOUR grandkids that it's wrong. Impress your morals on YOUR family. I personally don't believe that life begins at conception. Sorry.

    What exactly would YOU propose--OTHER than making abortion illegal (because they'd STILL happen)--to "make abortions rare"? Unfortunately, PP is in a position where they are the premier provider of abortions, simply because no one else will do them in most areas. I think their services are invaluable, especially to teen and college age students whose parents would not rationally talk to them about sex, but just freak out and lock them in a closet.

    I realize I'm rambling a little... but I did try to address each of your points, just maybe not in order. It's been a very long day for me, and I apologize if I am not clear, or if my tone comes across as insulting. This is an interesting debate from both sides to me, and I believe you to be intelligent enough to continue it with me.
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    magprob Posts: 1,877, Reputation: 300
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    #60

    Dec 3, 2007, 07:49 PM
    Here is the answer:


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After Abortion [ 12 Answers ]

I have had three abortions. After my third one I never really got my period but I do bleed once a month as if I have my periond. Can you tell me what's going on?


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