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What happened:
(1) Trump promoted violence and encouraged supporters to be violent.
(2) Trump targeted specific people for repeated vicious attacks.
(3) A domestic terrorist sent bombs to all the people Trump targeted.
(4) Trump blamed the media.
It's basically that simple.
"[On] Wednesday, [Trump] landed on a strategy that both minimizes the seriousness of the situation and encourages the bomber: Blaming the victims."
"Now Trump's approach is unsurprisingly being reinforced on Fox News, with multiple pundits blaming the media and the left, and framing the bomber as someone whose motivations are justified, even as they claim to denounce his methods. The idea is solidifying, at least in right-wing groupthink, that liberals and journalists should respond to terrorism by giving the terrorists what they want. This is no different than the logic of the wife-beater who tells his wife that he doesn't want to hit her, but if she can't get dinner on the table in time, then he clearly has no choice."
"Trump's idea of unity is not one where there's some terrain for reasonable compromise, or a genuine effort to argue out differences in an atmosphere of mutual respect. It's one where he can do what he wants and everyone else achieves 'unity' by lying down and letting him have his way."
https://www.salon.com/2018/10/25/don...dnt-take-long/
We’ve seen calls for incivility from both sides of the political spectrum . So if you chose to blame Trump go right ahead .It'll have the same impact of blaming Palin for Gabby Giffords ' shooting . I'll have to remind you of course that lefties have been routinely threatening and confronting Republicans in public recently and of course the only blood shed of public figures in the Trump era wasMajority Whip Steve Scalise who was shot and almost died from his wound.
Evita said“You cannot be civil with a political party that wants to destroy what you stand for, what you care about . “That’s why I believe, if we are fortunate enough to win back the House and/or the Senate, that’s when civility can start again. But until then, the only thing that the Republicans seem to recognize and respect is strength.” But hers were noble words right ? Maxine Waters called on her constituents to "absolutely harass " Trump officials . That may be why they get chased out of restaurants .
Double digit bombs and none of them went off. hmmm. Sounds like a Dem bomb maker to me . I have no evidence of that charge but hey who needs evidence these days to incite ?
You are right Tom, no one needs evidence these days. Bombs that don't go off, does nothing work over there?
What do you expect a lying, cheating, dufus to see through those beady eyes and black heart, and big mouth?
Clete this is all a set up . I don't know who did it yet but there is forensic evidence enough to probably nail them within the week . There were not enough explosives to set off a good fire cracker . There was just enough for detection . The funnist thing so far was il Duce Cuomo saying that he too was mailed a bomb. Turned out to be a thumb drive . Now he feels left out . All the beautiful people are getting "bombs " .
a suspect has been arrested
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Your "suspect" is a nutcase who has been radicalized by your boy Trump. Look up "stochastic terrorism".
Trump hammers every day against his targets and no one should be surprised when the weak-minded among his followers translates his tweets and comments into action. Remember pizzagate?
No one on the political or media scene comes remotely close to the evil nastiness of Trump. His responsibility is indirect but it is there nevertheless. And he knows it, as does everybody else.
He likes the power.Quote:
And he knows it, as does everybody else.
Quote:
Your "suspect" is a nutcase who has been radicalized by your boy Trump. Look up "stochastic terrorism".
He was radicalized well before Trump.
https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/ce...e-cory-booker/
But ok if you want to blame Trump then will you also blame Bolshevik Bernie forJames Hodgkinson shooting at Congressional Republicans ;seriously wounding Rep Scalise ?
and who do we blame when Vanessa Trump opened an envelope with white powder landing her in the hospital for 2 weeks being treated with Cipro ?
The Dufus loves power and craves approval, and always looks for a foe to demean to show how tough he is. He has no feel for nuance, sympathy or any good orderly direction. Details escape him completely as the ends always justifies his means. He is full of ideas that are great in his own mind, but leaves it to others to figure it out and hell to pay if they can't.
He can't be anything but the BOSS, and his loyalty comes with a heavy price, even for his family who seem molded into his image yet just as subordinate. As any ardent sycophant. Yes the dufus is bigger than life all right and dominates attention, but his weaponizing to the nth degree of fear and hate, red meat for his base is also a beacon for any lost loony. I recognize the country had already moved to tribal mode, but the dufus surely didn't help it but escalated it to levels I have not seen before.
Wonder if the dufus will keep his campaign promise of paying the legal fees of his supporters when they take actions against his enemies? How can you even compare Bernie's public rhetoric to the dufus's, Tom? I know it's silly season but I can find no distinction between righty loonies or lefty loonies, only that they are dangerous when focusing their out of bounds behavior. Yeah I put all these nuts in the same basket and blame them, but the actions or reactions to these events are entirely on the individual, but the prez was his usual disgusting self.
Trump is compensating, it is obvious
He has to rally his base with a steady supply of red meat to garner the votes to keep him in power. It worked to get him in power for sure. He is a campaigning machine to be fair. It would be interesting to see how he floats without so many sycophants in congress holding him up though. His margins for error are very slim.
What could the dufus be compensating for Clete? I agree but just would like your thoughts.
Agreed so call out Athos who is saying Trump is directly responsible . You did too by suggesting he should pay Sayocs legal fees .Quote:
but I can find no distinction between righty loonies or lefty loonies, only that they are dangerous when focusing their out of bounds behavior. Yeah I put all these nuts in the same basket and blame them, but the actions or reactions to these events are entirely on the individual, but the prez was his usual disgusting self.
Evita cheered the end of civility . Maxine Waters and Eric Holder both made statements recently intended to ummmm lets say "inspire" their base to take it a step beyond bounds(incite has legal implications so I use inspire instead)Quote:
I recognize the country had already moved to tribal mode, but the dufus surely didn't help it but escalated it to levels I have not seen before.
Waters :“If you see anybody from that Cabinet in a restaurant, in a department store, at a gasoline station, you get out and you create a crowd and you push back on them, and you tell them they’re not welcome anymore, anywhere.”
Holder :“Michelle always says—I love her; she and my wife are like, really tight, which always scares me and Barack—but Michelle always says, ‘When they go low, we go high.’ No. When they go low, we kick ’em.”
That's what the Dufus said Tom, over and over repeatedly for a long time now. His rhetoric hasn't changed much and he gets very personal naming names and taking no prisoners. Even Faux can no longer carry the dufus show live in it's entirety. Explain that. Hard to NOT blame a loony being triggered by the words of the dufus. Loonies are easily triggered, and CONSTANTLY endorsing bad behavior, as does the dufus, then he does bear some responsibility for his words and actions that cannot and should not be ignored. You righties really should muzzle and leash your pit bull. Instead you cheer his bad behavior.Quote:
Agreed so call out Athos who is saying Trump is directly responsible. You did too by suggesting he should pay Sayocs legal fees .
He is no leader or role model, nor should be taken as such, but recognize a rabble rouser who inspires the very worse in ALL of us. But if he gives you goodies like tax cuts and conservative judges then I guess you go along with him destroying everything else. Obviously I agree with Athos on this issue.
[QUOTE]Evita cheered the end of civility . Maxine Waters and Eric Holder both made statements recently intended to ummmm lets say "inspire" their base to take it a step beyond bounds(incite has legal implications so I use inspire instead)
Waters :“If you see anybody from that Cabinet in a restaurant, in a department store, at a gasoline station, you get out and you create a crowd and you push back on them, and you tell them they’re not welcome anymore, anywhere.”
Holder :“Michelle always says—I love her; she and my wife are like, really tight, which always scares me and Barack—but Michelle always says, ‘When they go low, we go high.’ No. When they go low, we kick ’em.[?QUOTE]
Even though you cherry picked those quotes and left a LOT out of them wholly changing the context, there is no comparison between the bully at the pulpit, and those that oppose him. This is what Hillary actually said,
They all are saying Tom, don't let the bully and his sycophants keep kicking you! Sorry if you cannot understand that something has to be done about the mad dog you elected.Quote:
"You cannot be civil with a political party that wants to destroy what you stand for, what you care about," Clinton said in an interview with CNN's Christiane Amanpour. "That's why I believe, if we are fortunate enough to win back the House and/or the Senate, that's when civility can start again. But until then, the only thing that the Republicans seem to recognize and respect is strength."
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Can you read? I said INDIRECTLY responsible!
Bernie is nothing like Trump - false equivalence. Bernie didn't repeatedly single out any targets by name the way Trump did - and continues to do.
Hello:
To me, hatred coming from the bully pulpit of the presidency, is 100's of 1,000's of TIMES worse than hatred coming from ANYONE who isn't president..
Trump is LIGHTING a match to a gasoline soaked nation, and then he yells FIRE.. He needs to be removed and removed NOW.
excon
Hello Tal:
Right wingers PRETEND to like Jews.. But, we're the first ones to get picked off. If I was running things, I'd put together a Jewish militia, and go on the offensive..
It's time to pick sides and join up.. The middle AIN'T a place you wanna be.
excon, Jewish warrior
Americans used to know how to disagree with one another without being mutually contemptuous .The news media, which promote shrieking outrage in pursuit of ratings makes the problem worse.
When Democrat leaders declare themselves part of the 'resistance' ,you know Civil War is imminent .When you look around at Democrat leaders applauding and encouraging the open harassment of political opponents out in public, and Trump at rallies applauding the body slamming of journalists , you know things are only going to get worse.Which side are you on ? We are a nation founded on self rule, protected by our Constitution. We exist as a nation because we deem it so. If and when we reach the point that we are in "Civil War" we are no longer a nation, but warring factions or as Tal said 'tribes', set on a course toward imminent destruction.
Hello again, tom:
I think you're right, and I think it's inevitable. The next civil war is gonna be called Civil War 1.2.. That's cause we never finished the first one. We LET the south keep its traitorous monuments, and statues. We LET them fly their battle flag. We LET them keep their Jim Crow laws..
We should have unalterably VANQUISHED them, OCCUPIED them, RE-EDUCATED them, and eased them back into civil society very carefully...
We'll do it this time, I betcha..
excon, Jewish warrior
is this shooting the result of Trump inciting too ? That would be a very hard case to make . Northern occupation lasted between 1865 and 1877 . It was called Reconstruction. It was a mixed bag of success and failure . Knocking down statues does not purge thought . Just ask the Taliban and ISIS if that has worked for them. This time there are no geographic delineations . So I guess your goal will be the equivalent of ethnic cleansing ; similar to what happened to loyalists after the Revolution or to Jews and Christians in most of the Middle East.
As Athos said in this thread yesterday: "Trump hammers every day against his targets and no one should be surprised when the weak-minded among his followers translates his tweets and comments into action."Quote:
is this shooting the result of Trump inciting too?
maybe you should read up on Robert Bowers . He made many comments on social media that he did not vote for Trump and did not like him because he has Jews in his cabinet . Trump's grandchildren are being raised in the Jewish faith and few President's have been more supportive of Israel. But none of that fits everyone's narrative of Trump .
Trump spews hatred and harming those we hate. And that's what Bowers did.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Evil is as evil does. One or a group. It's a big mistake to assign rational reasoning to a homicidal lunatic. Better to check and see if we had a full moon. That's as valid as any other explanation.
https://www.almanac.com/content/full-moon-october
Or was he trying to top the bomb lunatic?
what nonsense ! Here Bower's tweet about Trump
https://gellerreport.com/wp-content/...-for-Trump.png
Remember, Tom. Facts have no place in the thinking of many people. There's no more despicable person than Maxine Waters. She has openly and repeatedly called for violence against republicans, but that's OK since she is a democrat.
Really JL? After a loony sent bombs to many former and present democratic officials, another loony kills 11 people in a synagogue, and yet another loon in Kentucky tries to enter a church fails and kills two people at a grocery store,
Kentucky gunman attempted to enter predominantly black church minutes before grocery store shooting - NY Daily News
All you got is Maxine is despicable? I have never heard her call for violence, harassment yes (Maybe not a good move!), but violence NO, but she did get two pipe bombs from the loon.
After horrific events this past week that's all you got and speak of FACTS? Really? The real FACT is there are a lot of dangerous homicidal lunatics just waiting to reek death and destruction on innocent people. I think its pointless to worry about the politics, but we better deal with the disaster.
Disturbing you target Maxine Waters, but leave the dufus and his long onslaughts of hate speech and actually calling for violence out of the mix.
https://www.arcamax.com/newspics/cac...23/1672300.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
The only one that needs to worry about facts is you yourself.
Maxine Waters agreed with harassing Republicans at public places after Sarah Saunders was so harassed. Waters was roundly criticized by Democrats including Nancy Pelosi for this remark which she gave ONCE at a rally in Los Angeles - hardly "repeatedly calling for violence".
The one who repeatedly calls for violence is your Trump. He does it in the most violent words and has been doing it since he first began his campaign.
Check your facts so you don't present yourself as ignorant.
How about the supporter of Bernie Sanders who actually DID commit an act of violence, shooting republican congressmen? Do you hold Sanders responsible for that? I don't, just like I don't hold Trump responsible for what some loonies did. BTW, the shooter at the Jewish ceremony was actually a strong opponent of Trump, but you even want to hold Trump responsible for him. So you might be the one who needs to get his facts straight. It's just looney-tune politics to put this at Trump's feet. It's election time maneuvering.Quote:
Disturbing you target Maxine Waters, but leave the dufus and his long onslaughts of hate speech and actually calling for violence out of the mix.
As for Auntie Maxine, concerning the LA riots, this is what she said. See if it sounds like a denunciation of violence to you. “If you call it a riot, it sounds like it was just a bunch of crazy people who went out and did bad things for no reason. I maintain it was somewhat understandable, if not acceptable. So I call it a rebellion.” So burning down buildings, destroying private property, and killing people is viewed, to her, as "acceptable". Get serious.
Her repeated calls for harassing republicans is what I was referring to. You might not consider it violence, but if it happens to you, you'll have a different point of view. "The people are going to turn on them. They're going to protest. They're going to absolutely harass them until they decide that they're going to tell the President, 'No, I can't hang with you.'" These are the words that stir anger, and anger stirs violence.
Does Trump need to learn to keep his mouth shut? Absolutely, but don't act like he is alone in that regard. A little honesty would go a long ways.
Try explaining your excuses to these people.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/201...-rally-n585096
Attachment 49077
More non-violent democrats. https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/738580604736786434
There is violent behavior on both sides, and the only answer I see is for the rest of us to abandon our own hate speech and oppose this violence, no matter what the source. It should not be politicized. We should not fold our arms and insist that our side has no problem with violent behavior or with those who take political rhetoric to an unhealthy extreme.
False equivalence. Bernie never promoted violence against anyone. Trump promotes violence consistently. Backed by the power of the bully pulpit, Trump influences his supporters, especially those on the brink. As president, his responsibility is to set the proper tone to inhibit violence. He does the opposite.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
You put words in her mouth that she never said. "Burning down buildings, destroying private property, and killing people". Those are YOUR words, not Maxine Waters'. Who needs to get serious now?Quote:
As for Auntie Maxine, concerning the LA riots, this is what she said. See if it sounds like a denunciation of violence to you. “If you call it a riot, it sounds like it was just a bunch of crazy people who went out and did bad things for no reason. I maintain it was somewhat understandable, if not acceptable. So I call it a rebellion.” So burning down buildings, destroying private property, and killing people is viewed, to her, as "acceptable". Get serious.
If your position is what politicians say stirs anger and anger stirs violence, then just about every politician is guilty. But political speech is not the issue here. The issue is DIRECT incitement to violence using unmistakably violent encouragements to attack the opposition.Quote:
Her repeated calls for harassing republicans is what I was referring to. ... anger stirs violence
Trump alone is guilty of this. His thuggish behavior is recorded in Tweets and videos for anyone to see. You on the right-wing ought to take your own advice re honesty. Taking a page from Trump's playbook, you accuse others of the very thing you (and Trump) are guilty of. Dishonesty is rampant among the right.Quote:
Does Trump need to learn to keep his mouth shut? Absolutely, but don't act like he is alone in that regard. A little honesty would go a long ways.
That's what the people were doing whose behavior she found "acceptable". How else can it be understood??Quote:
You put words in her mouth that she never said. "Burning down buildings, destroying private property, and killing people". Those are YOUR words, not Maxine Waters'. Who needs to get serious now?
As for Trump, who is it who attacks Trump supporters? Who is it who, by threat of violence, prevent conservative speakers from speaking on college campuses? Who is it who harass and intimidate republicans in restaurants and other venues? Who was it shot republican congressmen? If you said liberal democrats, you get to go to the front of the line. Trump needs to dial it WAY back, and I agree with you on that, but you are just another self-righteous liberal if you can't see the violence on the left directed at conservatives. It plainly does not bother you, since you say nothing at all about it.
And yes, there are self-righteous conservatives who do the same thing, and no doubt I have been one of them myself from time to time.
The people were doing nothing of the sort. Stop reading Infowars and watching FOX.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Quote:
As for Trump, who is it who attacks Trump supporters? Who is it who, by threat of violence, prevent conservative speakers from speaking on college campuses? Who is it who harass and intimidate republicans in restaurants and other venues? Who was it shot republican congressmen? If you said liberal democrats, you get to go to the front of the line. Trump needs to dial it WAY back, and I agree with you on that, but you are just another self-righteous liberal if you can't see the violence on the left directed at conservatives. It plainly does not bother you, since you say nothing at all about it.
I have always condemned violence regardless of the source. I was the first one here to support Scalise when he was shot and to condemn the shooter. Be careful how you cast aspersions.
The discussion is about Trump and how he promotes violence. If you wish to broaden it to college campuses, start another thread. You have a tendency to make things up as you continue from post to post - not an effective way to engage in a discussion.
The people were doing nothing of the sort?? They had to call out 2,000 national guard troops. 63 were killed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots
Thank you for making my point. You seem to have no concern about violence unless it can be used politically. Well, perhaps that is not a fair statement, but I don't see any concern from liberals about liberal violence, just as most Trump supporters tend to overlook his overheated rhetoric.Quote:
The discussion is about Trump and how he promotes violence.
I had no idea you were referring to something from almost 30 years ago!! That's a bit of a stretch, isn't it? I was referring to the present-day Trump presidency. But if you want to go back, be careful. Trump has a long public record of thorough nastiness unmatched by anyone in public life.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I don't know what hat you pulled that one out of. Perhaps, you said. PERHAPS? You answered your own comment.Quote:
Thank you for making my point. You seem to have no concern about violence unless it can be used politically. Well, perhaps that is not a fair statement,
You have no idea whether I'm a liberal or a conservative or something else. What I AM is someone who appreciates the facts of a situation. When it comes to facts, Trump is a fact-deprived bozo.Quote:
but I don't see any concern from liberals about liberal violence, just as most Trump supporters tend to overlook his overheated rhetoric.
That was the riot that MW was referring to.Quote:
I had no idea you were referring to something from almost 30 years ago!!
Makes no difference. You seem to be only concerned with one side of the violence, which you think traces back to Trump. If that's true, then who does the liberal violence trace back to?Quote:
You have no idea whether I'm a liberal or a conservative or something else.
The dufus is but a symptom of a greater problem. Hate, born of fear. He didn't create the problem, but he sure ain't the solution. Unfortunately I doubt you will ever understand the remarks Congressman Waters makes about those riots long ago, nor how it evolved through the decades since that affect us today in profound ways .
You're not alone, as many don't get it either. I find it strange you make no comment on the triggering events of those riots of which you speak, tragic in every sense, that lends the context of those comments you find so despicable. In essence you are condoning the wanton brutality and mistreatment and dismissing the anger that it fostered. In no way do I condone or justify the violence that came from the Rodney King beating video at the hands of stupid a$$ cops, but it was the acquittal of those cops of any wrong doing, that was the REAL match that ignited the explosion that followed. There was plenty of fuel already as injustice has a LONG bloody history in this country. No surprise it blew up!
Cops getting away with murder and mayhem is a theme we have seen for far to long in this country, but it's only a small part of the picture and easy to ignore and miss the implications some refuse to see yet alone acknowledge , of how ugly the bigger picture is. Some don't or can't understand that, or don't care to understand but obviously Maxine Waters does. I can only implore YOU, JL to look deeper into those comments before you dismiss her as despicable.
I do understand though how horrific events can send us to the depths of our own tribal shelters, as it's no shame to be scared, and seek safety wherever we can find it, but the important thing is what you do about it through the lessons we learn from such events and experiences. If we cannot learn and find ways to do better then we can only drown in our own shat.
I find it fascinating you can go back that far and still have not learned the lesson of those times. Have you allowed a deep seated resentment to fester. It appears that way.
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