Hello:

Couldn't sleep last night... Watched the overnight FOX people.. Heard 'em discuss the granny being thrown over the cliff video. BOY, were they pissed off at the Democrats... How could they lie like that??

Then they discussed Ryans plan - and I became aware that they have NO CLUE what the Ryan plan is about. Really - NO CLUE!! They talked about how the old person is going to be "empowered". They asked what was wrong with vouchers... They said Ryan was going to privatize Medicare, and of course, private industry can offer services BETTER and CHEAPER than the government... They talked about all the CHOICES that an old person would have under the Ryan plan. They talked about all the ADDITIONAL services that would be available under the Ryan plan that aren't available now...

WHAT??

Yes, they talked about this old guy who will be "empowered" with his fistful of vouchers, but they mention NOTHING about the fact that there will be NO insurance companies willing to sell him insurance.

Now, I understand that the Ryan plan is being introduced to SAVE money. It's NOT being introduced to give seniors BETTER care. The fact is, the Ryan plan will transfer much of the cost of senior care to the senior himself. THAT is what saves the government money... IF the Republicans want to talk about it THAT way, I'd complain, but I wouldn't call 'em liars...

But, they ARE LIARS... That's just so.

excon

Not doing something about entitlements will kill off Medicare faster than Ryan's plan ever would(current projections have Medicare out of money by 2024). In fact Obamacare has done quite a number on Medicare already. Obamacare reduces future funding for Medicare by $575 billion over the next 10 years. (Obama pushing grandma into a moat with alligators).
The CBO's most recent report said that Obamacare would exacerbate Medicare's troubles. It is already not "Medicare as we know it".

It's in the hole for $30 trillion in unfunded liabilities . So to say that Medicare will not change "as we know it " is the lie.

Pelosi confirmed that the Dem plan is status quo ,don't do nuthin .
Nancy Pelosi: `We have a plan. It’s called Medicare.’ - The Plum Line - The Washington Post

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tomder55

Not doing something about entitlements will kill off Medicare faster than Ryan's plan ever would(current projections have Medicare out of money by 2024).

---

Hello again, tom:

It isn't an either/or situation. Not doing something about entitlements, and/or ending them are extreme positions. There ARE solutions in the middle.. We don't HAVE to throw granny off the cliff. Maybe we could cut down on empire building, for example.

excon

Hooray Ex you have the perfect plan; divert a 100 billion a year from the military and you have solved the problem and hardly made a didn't in their budget

A drop in the ocean . There is no annual budgetary solution to long term entitlement liabilities . You can't cut discretionary spending and get it done . You can't tax your way out of it. The ponzi scheme was predicated on a 6 :1 ratio of retiree to worker. We don't have anything close to that and the demographics are getting worse . Maybe it would've helped if we hadn't snuffed 50 million future workers... but that's a different discussion.
We the generation soon to enter our old age have to come to grips that we been screwed .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by paraclete

Hooray Ex you have the perfect plan; divert a 100 billion a year from the military and you have solved the problem and hardly made a dint in their budget

---

Clete ,if it were a simple matter of cutting military than why are a growing number of European nations going under water ? They've already gutted their militariies ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tomder55

a drop in the ocean . There is no annual budgetary solution to long term entitlement liabilities . You can't cut discretionary spending and get it done . You can't tax your way out of it. The pnzi scheme was predicated on a 6 :1 ratio of retiree to worker. We don't have anything close to that and the demographics are getting worse . Maybe it would've helped if we hadn't snuffed 50 million future workers ....but that's a different discussion.
We the generation soon to enter our old age have to come to grips that we been screwed .

---

Well Tom you have just lived too long and haven't saved enough, you need to retire to a safe haven somewhere. It's interesting you think about all those aborted people but you have replaced them with illegals and lengthened the unemployment queues so they wouldn't have made any difference at all. It's funny though we seem to get the job done and we did it not by giving free entitlements but by adding a levy to income tax so everyone pays somehow. You really must get off this taxation won't help kick,We have a saying and it fits most circumstances turn up, put up, pay up and shut up

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tomder55

Clete ,if it were a simple matter of cutting military than why are a growing number of European nations going under water ? They've already gutted their militariies ?

---

Tom two things firstly those European nations didn't have anywhere near the disproportionate military bill that the US has and secondly, they paid themselves high pensions,etc without a strong work force and high productivity. Look at who we are talking about, small nations where economic disruption takes a huge toll

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by paraclete

Tom two things firstly those European nations didn't have anywhere near the disproportionate military bill that the US has and secondly, they paid themselves high pensions,etc without a strong work force and high productivity. Look at who we are talking about, small nations where economic disruption takes a huge toll

---

No difference here. Have you not been following our discussions about government union pensions ? Half our states are no different than Greece. The truth is that whether it's European nations or the US the demographic realities are the same. Your point about illegal immigration on your other comment is well taken. But you as a Malthusian should be thrilled at the rate we've offed our productive future.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tomder55

No difference here. Have you not been following our discussions about government union pensions ? Half our states are no different than Greece. The truth is that whether it's European nations or the US the demographic realities are the same. Your point about illegal immigration on your other comment is well taken. But you as a Malthusian should be thrilled at the rate we've offed our productive future.

---

Tom the problem from my point of view is where governments created unfunded entitlement schemes such as pension schemes or health care schemes. This creates a future burden which can only be met by increasing revenue flow, your ponzi scheme. But long ago what we did here was require that all these entitlement schemes had to be fully funded. The governments could no longer cheat by claiming their budget is in balance or not in deficit unless they had paid their contributions into the scheme. We even have a fund called the future fund where the federal government socks away part of its surplus because it recognises that it will need this money. What all this did is cause of total rethink on the way these pension schemes are funded and administered so that entry was cutoff and less generous schemes implemented. Because our economy is much more planned than yours, the government could do some radical things, such as converting wage rises to superannuation contributions

I'm not saying we don't have bankrupt states, the one I live in has real problems but that is the result of sixteen years of incompetent government who have failed to provide inferstructure. In the future just like yourselves we have to face up to the problem of an aging population, but already we have the PR campaigns telling the population they will have to work longer so the expectations of a free ride are being dealt with.

Quote:

---

but already we have the PR campaigns telling the population they will have to work longer so the expectations of a free ride are being dealt with.

---

So your retirees cannot count on the systems to work "as we know it" . Exactly my point. The only debate here is should the model continue as is ? The Democrats think it should .Had Ryan proposed raising the age of eligibility you would've heard the same hysteria from them .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tomder55

The only debate here is should the model continue as is ? The Democrats think it should .

---

Hello again, tom:

No, that's not true. As long as the sacrifice is SHARED, they'll give... But, as long as you want to DESTROY Medicare at the same time you're giving tax breaks to the rich, it AIN'T going to happen. The right wing is as entrenched as the left.

excon

You are really deluded Tom you think you live in paradise but it is a fool's paradise. It is obviously unsustainable. You laugh at those of us who recognise that western society as we know it is unsustainable, but we are realists. So the age of eligibility gets raised because people have better health and live longer. It is sensible to expect people to work longer if they are fit and able. You want a society like Greece, that's the result of early retirement. We also recognise that the society is getting older because there is a lower birth rate, so it makes sense that people work longer. What we don't opt for is massive induction of migrants because it will create something that is unsustainable.
It will create inflation and our savings will be worthless. In my lifetime I have seen value eroded from a weekly wage of $20 to $1000 and even that is inadequate with people talking of $3000 as some sort of middle class threshold. No savings scheme can keep up with that

Hello again,

I'm watching FOX News.. Mitch McConnel is STILL saying that granny will be EMPOWERED to make choices as to who she will buy her insurance from... He's LYING!!

What he DOESN'T say, is granny is crippled.. Clearly, THAT is a pre-existing condition. Without being FORCED to, there's not an insurance company in the world that will sell her insurance at ANY price... So, for all they're worth, she can burn her "empowerment" vouchers in the fireplace to keep warm.

excon

I don't understand your country at all.

I assure you you won't lose any sleep over Mitch's efforts to get the Ryan plan passed. He's already said that he will consider a number of other budget proposals and is gearing up to support anything the Biden committee proposes. He and Boehner are old guard who should make way for lawmakers with fresh ideas.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

I don't understand your country at all.

---

No it's one of the great mysteries

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by paraclete

No it's one of the great mysteries

---

Yeah, and we like it that way. Apparently do a lot of others or they wouldn't be risking everything to get here. If only all of good progressives had kept their word and migrated to Canada when Bush beat Kerry we'd be an even better country.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tomder55

He's already said that he will consider a number of other budget proposals and is gearing up to support anything the Biden committee proposes.

---

Hello again, tom:

In other words, he abandoned the Ryan plan cause it's TOXIC! But, Boehner made ALL the House Republicans vote for it... Those poor fellows... I think the older Democrats, and those who PLAN to get older, will punish them. The Senate too will get painted with the Ryan plan, because it's turning out that supporting the Ryan plan is becoming a litmus test for the Republican nomination - ala the Newtster..

excon

Newt again... oye!

Newt's legislative accomplishment was to reach for the low hanging fruit... welfare reform .
Everyone knows ,or should know that it's not granny going over the cliff ,it's the US because everyone is in denial about the entitlement programs . A few tax fixes is only a 'kick the can down the road' answer .

McConnell ? Don't foget ;he doesn't like Tea Party conservatives. He didn't support Rand Paul in his own state ,and when there was an opening in the Senate Finance Committee he declined to appoint Jim DeMint earlier this month .He also rejected Rand Paul in the Senate Budget Committee.

He's one of these establishment Republicans who think their job is to be better managers of the Democrat installed nanny state . I want people in who challenge the premise of the rationale behind progressive government.