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    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #21

    Sep 1, 2010, 05:26 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by smoothy View Post
    You mean like Austrailias opression of the Aboriginies....and the Native Islanders of New Zealand?

    Fine examples of tollerance and accomidation you have there in your part of the world when you harp about ours.
    I have no idea what you are talking about, we don't oppress the mauri, there are tens of thousands of them among us and they come and go as they please, and we don't oppress the abo's, they choose to live as they do, unless you think our offering them education, health care and social security is oppression. This demonstates that you project your culture and ideas on others without understanding. I could ask you about the circumstances of the amerindian but I hear they are hard to find and there are many more blacks in poor circumstances in the US than there are poor abo's here, you should be concerned about them
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #22

    Sep 1, 2010, 05:26 AM

    I specifically omitted the men and restricted it to gorgeous women. The rest of them made it in your day time television drama and have had some success in US films.
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    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #23

    Sep 1, 2010, 05:28 AM

    Mel is kind of persona non grata at the moment, you can have him back.
    smoothy's Avatar
    smoothy Posts: 25,492, Reputation: 2853
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    #24

    Sep 1, 2010, 09:19 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by paraclete View Post
    I have no idea what you are talking about, we don't oppress the mauri, there are tens of thousands of them among us and they come and go as they please, and we don't oppress the abo's, they choose to live as they do, unless you think our offering them education, health care and social security is oppression. This demonstates that you project your culture and ideas on others without understanding. I could ask you about the circumstances of the amerindian but I hear they are hard to find and there are many more blacks in poor circumstances in the US than there are poor abo's here, you should be concerned about them
    Yeah... just like the Aborigines. You did them a huge favor, trying to destroy their culture and language in favor of English and Australian culture. Never mind THEY don't think that way. Or do YOU consider them not worthy of the respect you would give another Australian?


    And incidentally... YOU are the one who does nothing but bash American culture... exactly when did Australia stop screwing the Aboriginies?

    And handing out welfare isn't just payment for a destroyed culture, language and lifestyle.

    When you have your own house in order... then you have some room to spew.

    At least the Blacks here are free to return to their ancestoral homes if they wish.. and have been for over 150 years. Their ancestoral homes have not been under our control... so their culture exists as it does as a result of their own people. Any gripes they have now are a result of their own laziness. They are holding themselves back. Because too many of them think they are above breaking out a sweat doing physical labor... or too good to make the most of the free public school system, then complain why nobody wants to hire someone that can't speak cohearant english (when they speak no other language) can't dress like a civilized person... and then act like they are entitled to everything, all without even a high school diploma because they dropped out.


    Incidentally... when the Idians were being killed and run off their ancestoral lands... my ancestors were being screwed and starved to death by the English in Ireland and Scotland or being screwed by the wealthy and rulers in Germany All pre-nazi party era.

    ... but I don't harbor a dislike for the british.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #25

    Sep 1, 2010, 02:50 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by smoothy View Post
    Yeah... just like the Aborigines. You did them a huge favor, trying to destroy their culture and language in favor of English and Australian culture. Never mind THEY don't think that way. Or do YOU consider them not worthy of the respect you would give another Australian?

    Exactly when did Australia stop screwing the Aboriginies?
    You seem to have mixed up Australians and the British here but since you are well versed in all things Australian you will have heard of the intervention which specifically targeted under privilege among aboriginees, but I expect you think that is screwing the aboriginees.

    .
    And handing out welfare isn't just payment for a destroyed culture, language and lifestyle. .
    What would you have us do? Return them to the stone age, I think it has been demonstrated that for most this doesn't work and when we leave them alone we are criticised for doing nothing, no, we have a responsibily to provide them with education, health services and if necessary income.

    .
    At least the Blacks here are free to return to their ancestoral homes if they wish.. and have been for over 150 years. Their ancestoral homes have not been under our control... so their culture exists as it does as a result of their own people. Any gripes they have now are a result of their own laziness. They are holding themselves back. Because too many of them think they are above breaking out a sweat doing physical labor... or too good to make the most of the free public school system, then complain why nobody wants to hire someone that can't speak cohearant english (when they speak no other language) can't dress like a civilized person... and then act like they are entitled to everything, all without even a high school diploma because they dropped out..
    There seems to be some sort of double standard in operation here, we offer our aboriginees the same services you offer the negro or better and you critise us and look down your nose at your own. I think you should look at Liberia before suggesting your blacks go back to Africa. Perhaps they have a different ethos you so readily admit for the aboriginees. Our aboriginees live on their ancestoral lands unless they have freely decided to leave, that they share these places with others in some instances is something we can thank the British for.


    .
    Incidentally... when the Idians were being killed and run off their ancestoral lands... my ancestors were being screwed and starved to death by the English in Ireland and Scotland or being screwed by the wealthy and rulers in Germany All pre-nazi party era.

    ... but I don't harbor a dislike for the british.
    How convenient for you, would you allow me to make the same defense? I wasn't around in the early parts of the nineteenth century either but my ancestors had a similar experience and so I will conveniently blame the British for killing off the aboriginee and leaving most of this land empty. You live in a place which once belonged to someoneelse, so do I. You are as responsible for the circumstance as I am, but you cannot hold me to account for one outcome and deny your own responsibility for the circumstances in your own nation, Go help some of those lazy blacks you speak of.
    smoothy's Avatar
    smoothy Posts: 25,492, Reputation: 2853
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    #26

    Sep 1, 2010, 03:06 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by paraclete View Post
    You seem to have mixed up Australians and the British here but since you are well versed in all things Australian you will have heard of the intervention which specifically targetted under privilage among aboriginees, but I expect you think that is screwing the aboriginees.

    .

    What would you have us do? Return them to the stone age, I think it has been demonstrated that for most this doesn't work and when we leave them alone we are critised for doing nothing, no, we have a responsibily to provide them with education, health services and if necessary income.

    .

    There seems to be some sort of double standard in operation here, we offer our aboriginees the same services you offer the negro or better and you critise us and look down your nose at your own. I think you should look at Liberia before suggesting your blacks go back to Africa. Perhaps they have a different ethos you so readily admit for the aboriginees. Our aboriginees live on their ancestoral lands unless thay have freely decided to leave, that they share these places with others in some instances is something we can thank the British for.


    .

    How convenient for you, would you allow me to make the same defense? I wasn't around in the early parts of the nineteenth century either but my ancestors had a similar experience and so I will conveniently blame the British for killing off the aboriginee and leaving most of this land empty. You live in a place which once belonged to someoneelse, so do I. You are as responsible for the circumstance as I am, but you cannot hold me to account for one outcome and deny your own responsibility for the circumstances in your own nation, Go help some of those lazy blacks you speak of.
    So... Autrailia was not initially colonized as a British Penal colony? That's news to everyone else.

    You mention offering "services" to the aboriginies they didn't want. Did they ask for their CHildren to be taken from their families... be forced to renounce all things in their culture, to be treated like second class humans...

    Damn... thats just like saying Slavery was doing Tribal africans a service by taking them off the hands of their fellow african slave traders and offering them what we had to offer. I don't think that argument held water for those that tried it here either, and for good reason.

    And incidentally... yeah a few did go back... and the rest that whine and complain expecting handouts for something that ended generations previous... are free to go as well if their mythical Africa is and was so great. But they might have to work there. Your average African isn't nearly as lazy and they wouldn't have it so easy. I've known a few from a number of countries, members from a VERY prominent presidents family that live here (I won't name what country here, but they are very nice people)... they believe you are entitled to what you work to earn, and don't expect handouts.

    Fortunately its not a universal mindset, many recognise the opportunity, and make the best of it. And don't dwell on what happened over 150+ years ago.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #27

    Sep 1, 2010, 03:26 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by smoothy View Post
    So....Autrailia was not colonized as a British Penal colony? THats news to everyone else.

    You mention offering "services" to the aboriginies they didn't want. Did they ask for their CHildren to be taken from their families...be forced to renounce all things in their culture, to be treated like second class humans....

    Damn....thats just like saying Slavery was doing Tribal africans a service by taking them off the hands of their fellow african slave traders and offering them what we had to offer.
    What pecular mixed up thinking, What does parts of Australia having been a penal colony have to do with what we were discussing, which If I remember correctly was the fate of aboriginal inhabitants in our respective nations? It is you who brought the ameriacn former slaves into the discussion with your spew about their laziness and ingratitude by not returning to Africa, why would they go back to the people who enslaved them? I observe you are careful not to comment on the condition of the amerindian today. As to the stolen generations you omitted to say that these were not full blood aborigineee children but the dispised "creamies" who had no place in either culture, the full blood still have their culture which is not as tolerant of outsiders as you might suppose. Some of those "ill treated sub humans" have done well for themselves
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    smoothy Posts: 25,492, Reputation: 2853
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    #28

    Sep 1, 2010, 03:30 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by paraclete View Post
    What pecular mixed up thinking, What does parts of Australia having been a penal colony have to do with what we were discussing, which If I remember correctly was the fate of aboriginal inhabitants in our respective nations? It is you who brought the ameriacn former slaves into the discussion with your spew about their laziness and ingratitude by not returning to Africa, why would they go back to the people who enslaved them? I observe you are careful not to comment on the condition of the amerindian today. As to the stolen generations you omitted to say that these were not full blood aborigineee children but the dispised "creamies" who had no place in either culture, the full blood still have their culture which is not as tolerant of outsiders as you might suppose. Some of those "ill treated sub humans" have done well for themselves
    You argued I had British confused with Australian. Your as well as Canadian ties to England are far more current and fresher than ours are. But they still exist.

    And Incidentally... I do know one true Mauri guy (so he claims anyway, but he looks it)... immigrated here to the USA about 5 years ago.

    I never claimed either the Mauri or the Aborigiunee cultures were perfect... or tolerant. And given history... their intollerance has a sound basis, and no doubt has effected that culture in many ways since days long before either of us were born..
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    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #29

    Sep 1, 2010, 03:48 PM

    Can we agree we both shafted the natives and move on ?

    Back to the OP . The Bama will continue to resort to the tired meme that "it's Bush fault"as long as he can get away with it.

    Bush's ,memoir is coming out soon.It is my hope he defends his legacy . He steered the ship of state through uncharted waters ,and over all... I say well done !
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #30

    Sep 1, 2010, 03:49 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by smoothy View Post
    You argued I had British confused with Austrailian. Your as well as Canadian ties to England are far more current and fresher than ours are. But they still exist.

    And Incidently...I do know one true Mauri guy (so he claims anyway, but he looks it)...immigrated here to the USA about 5 years ago.

    I never claimed either the Mauri or the Aborigiunee cultures were perfect...or tolerant. And given history....their intollerance has a sound basis, and no doubt has effected that culture in many ways since days long before either of us were born..
    You have wandered off on an tangent again but I guess if it gets too hot in the kitchen. The mauri have nothing to do with Australia unless it is conveniently using it as a place of employment. What does a mauri look like? Could you tell the difference between say a mauri and an arab? Perhaps by the tatoos, beyond that? The same is true of many aboriginees in Australian society today

    As to ties with the old country mine diverged 190 years ago so not as far apart as you might think. America and Australia and New Zealand all had sad experiences with the British but then so did peoples much closer to them and we have the legacy of their attitudes in our thinking
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    smoothy Posts: 25,492, Reputation: 2853
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    #31

    Sep 1, 2010, 03:52 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by paraclete View Post
    You have wandered off on an tangent again but I guess if it gets too hot in the kitchen. The mauri have nothing to do with Australia unless it is conveniently using it as a place of employment. What does a mauri look like? could you tell the difference between say a mauri and an arab? perhaps by the tatoos, beyond that? The same is true of many aboriginees in Australian society today

    As to ties with the old country mine diverged 190 years ago so not as far apart as you might think. America and Australia and New Zealand all had sad experiences with the British but then so did peoples much closer to them and we have the legacy of their attitudes in our thinking
    Yeah... there is a huge difference between a Mauri and an Arab. And actually it would be hard to tell the difference between a Mauri and a Native Hawaiian. And this is ignoring any tattoos. I'm not a tattoo expert anyway and wouldn't know the differneces between many of the tribal patterns and don't pretend to.
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    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #32

    Sep 1, 2010, 04:14 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    The Bama will continue to resort to the tired meme that "it's Bush fault"as long as he can get away with it.

    !
    Every government has a legacy from its predecessor and spends a lot of time reminding us of all the things they did wrong, that is on the days when they don't have some newsworthy initiative they want us to acknowledge their brilliance for. I expect the problem is BO has run out of newsworthy initiatives, this is what happens when you have a shallow agenda.
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    twinkiedooter Posts: 12,172, Reputation: 1054
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    #33

    Sep 6, 2010, 09:26 AM

    Obama is definitely victim to HIS failed and broken promises. I am not aware of any of his campaign promises coming to fruition in positive ways. The first glaring "promise" of transparancy.

    ****rolling on the floor with laughter on that one*****

    The only thing this guy is good at is breaking promises regardless of who's promises they are.
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    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #34

    Sep 6, 2010, 07:00 PM

    Today the President said :
    They talk about me like a dog.

    'They talk about me like a dog' - Jonathan Martin - POLITICO.com

    This while offering union employees $50 billion of taxpayer's money to dig holes and fill them in. That's classic Keynes .
    Paul Krugman says that worked great last time. All it took was the stimulating spending of WWII to make it happen.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/06/op...=1&ref=opinion

    Of course ;when the bombs stopped falling ,the US was the only market left in town... a small detail lost in his narrative.
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    bleusong52 Posts: 239, Reputation: 46
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    #35

    Sep 6, 2010, 09:01 PM

    Most the media falls into that "it's still Bush's fault" and it is so old already. When the Obama administration cannot get it right, well, it is still GWB's fault.

    I will say one good thing - my nephew is coming home from Iraq, hopefully by the middle of October.
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    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #36

    Sep 7, 2010, 06:49 AM

    I think it will take a lot longer than 2 years to clean up the mess that was left when the new guy got here. Especially when he can't get any help. And won't from the right, who are to scared of their own shadow to do anything but cry.

    Heck, it took 8 years for us to find out how bad the mess was, and how much money was stolen in the first place.

    Funny how the timing worked out. Bush hollers fire on his way out the door. Who to blame? The guy with the match, or the guy with the bucket?
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    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #37

    Sep 7, 2010, 06:51 AM

    A bucket of gasoline perhaps .

    I like the bucket analogy. It sure seems to me that the President is desperate to fulfill everything in his bucket list before his Presidency dies.
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    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #38

    Sep 7, 2010, 07:02 AM

    That's what all Presidents do!
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    smoothy Posts: 25,492, Reputation: 2853
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    #39

    Sep 7, 2010, 08:22 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    A bucket of gasoline perhaps .

    I like the bucket analogy. It sure seems to me that the President is desperate to fullfill everything in his bucket list before his Presidency dies.
    I would prefer to call Obamas agenda "The Honey Bucket"... rather than just a Bucket.

    Because a Louisiana Outhouse in July would smell better than Obama Bucket list.
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    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #40

    Sep 7, 2010, 10:02 AM

    My position is help clean the mess up, rather than jump the janitor for not working fast enough.

    Even if you right wingers get your congress this fall what makes you think the clean up will go faster. Especially given the ones affected most by the highway robbery in the first place.

    Take away the fear mongers, and scare tactics, which we have all seen before to roust up votes, things will not change dramatically for those hollering the loudest in the next 2 years, than they have in the last two.

    Face it rich guys who want a return to trickle down economics, as a solution to the current mess haven't lost a dime, so who has?

    They relaxed and eliminated all the rules, causing utter chaos, but regulation makes them mad. Go figure that one. (BP, and the oil spill come to mind.)

    Naw, those things that allowed things to get screwed up, are not a good option, and crying about being afraid to invest in new jobs, and expanding is another crock spread by the money folks who sit on a fortune while they exploit cheap labor, and trade laws to outsource jobs that the middle class here use to have.

    The biggest scam was in new housing where they made a perfect bubble, took their money in fees and commissions upfront, sold it to greedy fruit cakes, who they left holding the bag (US), and homeowners who would never of qualified for loans, mortgages, or refinancing otherwise are stuck with "upside down mortgages", or a lot of unpaid debt in common language.

    Yeah wipe out some more rules will you like the Republicans have been saying for 2 years, so the rich can get even richer, and the poor can stay poor, and the middle class can no longer work through this latest recession. Blame everybody including the janitor. But let the ones who drove the car over the cliff have the keys back to do it again.

    I ain't uncertain about a thing except getting screwed yet again by the ruling class, who tell you that what's trickling down to you is good for you.

    We are all the victims of the Bush failed promises, not just the janitor.

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