It would be very simple to design a tax plan that cut taxes for the lower and middle classes without cutting taxes for the wealthy. But that's not the intention of the Republicans and never has been. (I leave Trump out of this because, like any legislation, he's completely clueless).

The GOP wants the rich to become richer, and reward its rich donor base, and reward the large corporate stockholders. It's as obvious as the orange nose on Trump's face.

The more nefarious strategy comes later. What happened to the GOP deficit hawks? You know, those guys who scream about increasing the debt? This "plan" will INCREASE the debt by a staggering $1.5 TRILLION dollars!

They claim the economy will pay back this huge debt in new revenue being taxed. But will it?

This plan is right out of the discredited Laffer Curve. Discredited in 1981, 1986, 2001 and more recently and dramatically in the state of Kansas where the state had to backtrack after the failed experiment with lowering taxes to increase revenue. Didn't work - BIGLY didn't. Undermined every program the state had - from education to infrastructure. Will the GOP learn from this glaring screw-up? NOT A CHANCE!

What happens when the debt soon becomes unmanageable thanks to the lying GOP? Why, then the REAL object will come to the fore. In order to manage the debt, the GOP will reduce/eliminate Social Security (remember Bush trying to privatize it?), reduce/eliminate Medicare, and reduce/eliminate Medicaid.

Sound far-fetched? So did Trump becoming president.

Just tell me why you need tax cuts when rich guys are already making money hand over fist, and we have NO infrastructure bill on the table. Wouldn't you rather have growth spurred by demand, while you built roads, and bridges and schools? Wouldn't that be putting America first?

Pretty obvious that the donor class is gearing up for 2018 with a huge SLUSH fund. That can't be good but for a small amount of the citizens.

Ah, Tal, one thing at a time, they do the doable and the impossible takes a little more time, with big right-offs in the tax bill, investment will become more attractive, that is the hope, a new hope. Perhaps there will be some new tollways built and toll bridges and private schools, they love building them here, so maybe they will love building them there.

I think they have resigned themselves to the fact that to get investment they have to look to tax profits in the far future rather than next year, it is a successful formula, particularly when your corporates and high income individuals are adept at hiding profits in tax shelters.

What I think is you cannot tell the outcome from a shift in tax policy, when we shifted from income taxation to consumption taxation the economy roared ahead. I know cheats who went out of business because they now had to pay tax, a foolish idea but never the less. You may suffer the same fate. Remember your side of politics benefits too

We have flat taxers here too, and glad it helped you guys roar. Roar all you want, but you make goods and services beyond the means of more than half our population and that destroys demand. You keep forgetting you don't have the mouths to feed that my house does Clete.

All things are relative, Tal, what we don't have to feed is that great gaping maw of debt. I seem to remember that that half of your population buys goods made elsewhere, as does ours, and I know that is a real issue. We didn't make the decision to make China the manufacturing hub of the world, I expect those decisions were made on Wall Street or somewhere nearby, so excuse me if I don't join your pity party.

Tal, there is an inevitable solution to the way the Western world is going, and it is to have everyone on the welfare teat and pay them sit down money because there will not be enough jobs, when that day comes you will have to send your beloved illegals home and those poor will have to work if they want more. I see it will happen here too. It is not a solution I like but the alternative is anarchy

All things are relative, Tal, what we don't have to feed is that great gaping maw of debt. I seem to remember that that half of your population buys goods made elsewhere, as does ours, and I know that is a real issue. We didn't make the decision to make China the manufacturing hub of the world, I expect those decisions were made on Wall Street or somewhere nearby, so excuse me if I don't join your pity party.

There is no pity party here Clete, just recognizing the challenge before us, and working toward a resolution. It's not like no one saw it coming as our debates have been raging for generations now, and the great Melting Pot will continue to be stirred. I caution you though because while you criticize US for our management, you are on the same trajectory of growing debts, though of course for some reason you deny it. Stop being a snob, and take note. You wrote here of the many problems your nation has solved and good for you, but what you better pay attention to is things have a way of changing, and those old solutions have to be tweaked or scraped and replaced. You'll see, as that's inevitable. Just as inevitable that China is hardly alone with too many mouths to feed for the resources. LOL, they have know it was coming for centuries though, and knew it was INEVITABLE.

I have been trying to tell you for years that no human group is unique, just different, but human behavior is global. History bears that out. In short you are doing things no different than was done before, so climb down from that snobbish pedestal, and embrace that GOODWILL you have so elegantly proffered as the SOLUTION.

Evolution is a process, not one event.

Tal, there is an inevitable solution to the way the Western world is going, and it is to have everyone on the welfare teat and pay them sit down money because there will not be enough jobs, when that day comes you will have to send your beloved illegals home and those poor will have to work if they want more. I see it will happen here too. It is not a solution I like but the alternative is anarchy

GOODWILL is the will for Good Orderly Direction in my book, and the rest of your populous gibberish is but fearmongering that one day you realize that your status of wealth you bestow upon yourself is as ARTIFICIAL as the labels you put on other humans to justify your own lack of GOODWILL toward them.

When HUMANS separate themselves from the HUMAN condition, that sets in motion anarchy, and the chaos you so fear. Just because you cannot walk on water, does that mean those that cannot walk are beneath you? According to your words they are.

By the way the subject of this thread The Trump Tax cuts, are repugnant in that they allow legal stealing by a small group, with NO GOODWILL to the many that will INEVITABLY be adversely affected.

Everybody sees that coming! That's why the treasury department is being investigated for withholding factual data, and Mitch and the repubs are in such an all fired hurry to pass their bill under the special rules of reconciliation. Hell the thing doesn't get implemented until 2019 right after the 2018 election for SOME ordinary citizens, but immediately AND permanently for ALL rich guys. Perfect timing right? Then there is that 40% that get a few bucks for a while, and have to give it back and more later.

The full report will be released later today.

UPDATE

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...-of-americans/

Tal it is all in how you read the data, most people get a tax cut however small and it is pointless looking out to 2027 because there will be a different regime by then, with a different set of objectives. There seems to be an idea predicated in this that a tax cut means a big tax cut, that can only happen if you have big income. Maybe the american nation is being sold a pup, politicians have a way of doing that and you can bet the modelling of this wasn't done yesterday. You seem to want to shoot the messenger. If your politicians have difficulty reforming things it is because of the structure of your system but there seems to be a will there for this to get done. Anyway I don't see you raging against the moral repugnance of your cops shaking down citizens

You cannot solve the human condition by throwing open your doors, Tal, all that ensures is that everyone is dragged down. We spoke about things as a nation we solved, we still stumble in the debt and deficit department but we have a plan, it seems to change as priorities change, but it hasn't been thrown out yet

We are still here too, and also have a plan. So if your point is how superior you are, then forget it. Your government is so very closely structured to ours that you could be a state.

Man (and woman) is forever subject to the temptations of greed. That is why God himself proposed the first system of regulations called the Ten Commandments. In the USA, the evil Republican party has consistently attempted to repeal these rules in favor of the rich.

In case the Republicans didn't get it, Christ told the story of Lazarus, and later, "It is harder for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven than to pass through the eye of a needle". The Republicans still haven't gotten it. Their reply is that of Wells Fargo - we worship Mammon.

Now that the evil Tax Cuts have been enacted, Christ and his angels weep. Soon, when the real objective of dismantling Medicaid begins, the poorest of the poor will sicken and die. Then when Social Security is privatized - because the debt has grown so enormously - the Wall Street criminals will feed off the carcasses of the common people as the people try to navigate the labyrinthine Byzantine machinations of the stock market. Long before this, the elderly have died before their time because Medicare was unceremoniously dumped in favor of the insurance companies making obscene profits.

The only bright spot in all this is Trump being impeached, convicted of treason, and placed in a cage hanging in the lobby of Trump Tower for all to gawk at and chant over and over "You're FIRED!"

Science fiction? Maybe. But the Republicans, you can be assured, dearly wish for the scenario to unfold as described. Even to washing their hands of the false god Trump since his purpose will have been served.

The congress has moved closer to the donor class getting their loot, will they even need Trump next year after he signs their bill into law? Rumor has it that Pence can write his name too. Wonder what happens if the ordinary guy doesn't see his loot from all of this? The donor class and the recipients of all those deficit dollars could do the right thing and trickle a nice chunk of change to the Main Street slaves, but will they? Or will they come up with all kinds of tricks, traps,and schemes to double their money like they did with the Bush tax loot they got? 2018 promises high drama, and intrigue, so buckle up, and pay attention. We're just getting started.

Perfect!!!

Well it seems to be done, suddenly certain things won't be the same, the polar bears will have new prey, doctors and hospitals will have less patience and patients, no one will ever have to file their taxes again, no, that isn't right, no one will ever pay tax again, no, that isn't right either. Donald Trump gets a big tax cut if his tax liability can be found, and freedom abounds, you are free.

You are free to drill for oil in Alaska, you are free to bring back your ill gotten gains from offshore, you are free to puzzle how all this affects you and your special circumstances, should I give more? should I get a bigger mortgage? should I leave the house to the kids?

Don't be so dramatic, this isn't our first robbery through taxation. We went through the Bush Tax cuts, wars, and a recession and came out fine. Now we go through Trump.

Ah, yes the inevitable relaxation, if you are going to be screwed relax and enjoy it

duplicate

In an ideological war Clete, you land some punches, and so do they. Some days you win,some days they do. The war continues.

Tal, it was ever so, but it shouldn't be that way.

Tal how can giving people their money back be a robbery ?