Check out some similar questions!

jlisenbe · Nov 22, 2018, 10:06 PM

What "a lot" do you know about the afterlife?

Read the book of Revelation and you'll find out a lot.

I don't think "accurate" or "true" is the correct word to use in describing the Bible.

If it's not accurate, then it's inaccurate. If it's not true, then it's untrue.

paraclete · Nov 22, 2018, 10:08 PM

It seems to me that someone who thinks the Bible isn't true is under a misapprehention

Wondergirl · Nov 23, 2018, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by paraclete

It seems to me that someone who thinks the Bible isn't true is under a misapprehention

Accurate and true like this?
Psalm 98:8 8Let the rivers clap their hands, let the mountains sing together for joy;
Isaiah 55:12 12You will go out in joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and hills will burst into song before you, and all the trees of the field will clap their hands.

Wondergirl · Nov 23, 2018, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Read the book of Revelation and you'll find out a lot.

As our pastor taught us, the general thrust of the apocalyptic genre is that its subject matter is primarily concerned with a crisis in the author's present time. For Ezekiel and Zechariah, the crisis was the Babylonian exile. For the earlier swath of Jewish apocalypses, it was the Maccabean Revolt. For later apocalypses such as Revelation, it was the Roman conquest of Jerusalem and its aftermath. (The Revelation was written in this latter time period, as were 4 Ezra and 2 Baruch.)
https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.c...rom-the-romans

jlisenbe · Nov 23, 2018, 10:52 AM

Accurate and true like this?
Psalm 98:8 8Let the rivers clap their hands, let the mountains sing together for joy;
Isaiah 55:12 12You will go out in joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and hills will burst into song before you, and all the treesof the field will clap their hands.

Yes, there are portions of the Bible that are clearly meant to be taken figuratively, but then to say that it must be true of the entire Bible is an enormous mistake. The Ten Commandments, for instance, are plainly not figurative. I think you prefer the figurative, non-literal approach because it allows you to insert your own ideas into the Bible rather than the other way around.

As our pastor taught us, the general thrust of the apocalyptic genre is that its subject matter is primarily concerned with a crisis in the author's present time.

Several problems: 1. There was no crisis during the time Revelation was written other than what typically went on, which was the persecution of the church. You contended earlier that it was Nero, but he died thirty years prior. 2. Your pastor also believed that Revelation was written in some mysterious, lost code, which is ridiculous on the face of it. Having broken both the German and Japanese military codes in WW 2, it is impossible to imagine that some imagined code of Revelation would remain hidden. 3. The passages in chapters 4 and 5 are clearly a depiction of heaven with no reason at all not to take them as literal. 4. John's presentation in Revelation is that practically all of it was a "revelation" of heaven and the future, initiated by Jesus Himself, including seven letters to churches. Of course, maybe he was lying.

Wondergirl · Nov 23, 2018, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Yes, there are portions of the Bible that are clearly meant to be taken figuratively, but then to say that it must be true of the entire Bible is an enormous mistake. The Ten Commandments, for instance, are plainly not figurative. I think you prefer the figurative, non-literal approach because it allows you to insert your own ideas into the Bible rather than the other way around.

Whaaaaaaattttt????? Then saying I say WHAT? I prefer the WHAT????

You must have glossed over my earlier comment:

"It's made up many different styles of writing, including allegory, poetry, wisdom literature, parable, history, prophecy, law, fiction, and narration, so it must be interpreted and understood in the context of those styles."

Several problems:

Yup. Please do more research on this. Maybe I'll invite dwashbur to visit this thread.

jlisenbe · Nov 23, 2018, 11:30 AM

Yup. Please do more research on this. Maybe I'll invite dwashbur to visit this thread.

So far as I can tell, the only research you have done is to quote your pastor. I don't mean that to sound ugly, but you might want to do some research yourself before you recommend I do so.

"It's made up many different styles of writing, including allegory, poetry, wisdom literature, parable, history, prophecy, law, fiction, and narration, so it must be interpreted and understood in the context of those styles."

That's a fair enough statement until you begin to say that the Bible is not accurate or true. That's where you part company with many people.

Wondergirl · Nov 23, 2018, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

So far as I can tell, the only research you have done is to quote your pastor. I don't mean that to sound ugly, but you might want to do some research yourself before you recommend I do so.

It wasn't a quote from my pastor; it was a quote from a hermeneutics site, and I posted a link to that hermeneutics site. If I post links, then I'll be accused of not having faith and not using the brain God gave me. I've spent much of my life reading the Bible and being open-minded, have done critical thinking regarding various points of view, have researched, especially the teachings of other Christian churches.

That's a fair enough statement until you begin to say that the Bible is not accurate or true. That's where you part company with many people.

I didn't say the Bible isn't accurate or true.

jlisenbe · Nov 23, 2018, 01:43 PM

As our pastor taught us,

It wasn't a quote from my pastor;

I was just going off what you posted.

I didn't say the Bible isn't accurate or true.

I don't think "accurate" or "true" is the correct word to use in describing the Bible.

Again, just going on what you said. If the Bible is not "accurate" or "true", then what is it other than inaccurate and untrue?

If I post links, then I'll be accused of not having faith and not using the brain God gave me.

Not by me.

Wondergirl · Nov 23, 2018, 02:13 PM

Now I fully understand why literalists have problems dealing with those of us who may use the historical-critical method of reading and understanding what the Bible is telling us.

You aren't reading what I write. Instead, you're "jumping the shark."

I quoted from that hermeneutics link. That wasn't a quote from my pastor, but he said pretty much the same thing, as evidenced by my preface, "as our pastor taught us."

Even you don't believe everything in the Bible is "accurate" and "true." And I gave you examples.

Guess I'll post a plethora of applicable links.

jlisenbe · Nov 23, 2018, 02:23 PM

I quoted from that hermeneutics link. That wasn't a quote from my pastor, but he said pretty much the same thing, as evidenced by my preface, "as our pastor taught us."

Fair enough. I could contend that you worded your statement poorly, but that's fine.

Even you don't believe everything in the Bible is "accurate" and "true." And I gave you examples.

No, you did not. You gave examples of scriptures that were meant to be taken figuratively. That by no means shows they are not accurate or true. When Jesus said He was the gate by which the sheep would enter, He was not literally saying He was a gate or that we were literally sheep. It cannot be taken to mean that, but He was quite accurate and true in what He was expressing. He is the "gate" by which we "sheep" enter by faith and become a part of His "flock". But when He makes a clear statement about hell, there is absolutely no reason to suppose he was not speaking literally unless, of course, a person simply doesn't like the idea of hell. And that is, frankly, where I think you are. Again, I don't intend that in a mean way, but rather in an honest way. When you find a Bible statement you don't like, it seems to me that you run to the escape hatch of figurative language, and I think you are in error in doing so.

Wondergirl · Nov 23, 2018, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Fair enough. I could contend that you worded your statement poorly, but that's fine.

Or we could contend that you have no interest in understanding what a dependent clause is.

No, you did not. You gave examples of scriptures that were meant to be taken figuratively.

I had said:
"It's made up many different styles of writing, including allegory, poetry, wisdom literature, parable, history, prophecy, law, fiction, and narration, so it must be interpreted and understood in the context of those styles."

That by no means shows they are not accurate or true. When Jesus said He was the gate by which the sheep would enter, He was not literally saying He was a gate or that we were literally sheep.

I didn't say anything about gate and sheep! YOU did! And I totally agree with that comparison that Jesus made.

I have no problem with Hell, but what it is leaves much to be explained. Okay. What is YOUR definition of Hell?

P.S. Have you ever seen the Michelangelo fresco behind the altar in the Sistine Chapel?

paraclete · Nov 23, 2018, 02:56 PM

Perhaps we should switch this thread to the religion section

jlisenbe · Nov 23, 2018, 04:23 PM

Or we could contend that you have no interest in understanding what a dependent clause is.

Ha! OK. Fair enough.

What examples were you referring to? I took that to mean the two scriptures you noted from Psalms. Did you mean something else?

I realize you did not refer to the passage about Jesus and the sheep. I simply used that as an example of a text which must be taken figuratively.

Clete, I have wondered myself how we got from aircraft carriers to where we are.

Wondergirl · Nov 23, 2018, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Ha! OK. Fair enough.

I KNEW it, I KNEW it!!!!

What examples were you referring to? I took that to mean the two scriptures you noted from Psalms. Did you mean something else?

Psalms and Isaiah? Yes, unless those things really happen. I can give more examples, if you want them. :D All would have to do with "allegory, poetry, wisdom literature, parable, history, prophecy, law, fiction, and narration."

talaniman · Nov 23, 2018, 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by paraclete

Perhaps we should switch this thread to the religion section

Going from any subject and ending up at the bible is the very definition of a bible thumper… and I use the term affectionately, as who can be surprised by it?

Any doubt that if Jesus were here we would have Medicare for all, and he would work to heal and comfort everybody?

jlisenbe · Nov 23, 2018, 06:16 PM

Psalms and Isaiah? Yes, unless those things really happen. I can give more examples, if you want them. :D All would have to do with "allegory, poetry, wisdom literature, parable, history, prophecy, law, fiction, and narration."

Now you know better. There is a difference between figurative language and inaccuracy or untruth. You are an editor and unfamiliar with these things?

Any doubt that if Jesus were here we would have Medicare for all, and he would work to heal and comfort everybody?

He didn't have it or advocate for it while He was here, so why would I think He would have it now? I think he would tell Tal, WG, and JL to love our neighbors. You think He would tell us to exercise tyranny over our neighbors with your brand of mandatory charity.

Wondergirl · Nov 23, 2018, 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Now you know better. There is a difference between figurative language and inaccuracy or untruth. You are an editor and unfamiliar with these things?

Not all of those are in figurative language.

Um, "editor and unfamiliar with these things?"

talaniman · Nov 23, 2018, 08:01 PM

When you give Caesar his due he does what he wants and that would include Medicare for all. Jesus said so. You can volunteer for whatever you want.

jlisenbe · Nov 24, 2018, 01:13 AM

When you give Caesar his due he does what he wants and that would include Medicare for all. Jesus said so.

No He did not. Never mentioned Medicare. Never said anything about what Caesar did with taxes. He simply said to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's. Thankfully in America we get to voice our ideas about what is to be done.