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talaniman · Nov 2, 2018, 01:59 PM

Well please don't keep this layman in suspense, who are those 13... the disciples or... who?

Athos · Nov 2, 2018, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

For me, I'll place my eternity in His hands and believe His words. .

So you DO believe God will damn over 10 billion humans. Hardly a loving God.

Thanks for making your belief clear. I'm interested in such beliefs - especially from you, who makes such an issue of "evidence" and yet believes the words of an unknown writer from 2 thousand years ago. I wouldn't call that evidence but you're free to believe what you want.

Most Christians have gone beyond that need to believe such bad things about those who don't hold to the same ideas. Biblical literalists are fewer and fewer as we move deeper into the 21st century.

Wondergirl · Nov 2, 2018, 02:50 PM

your arguments won't get you very far on that day

I'm not arguing with you; I'm asking you.

Wondergirl · Nov 2, 2018, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by talaniman

Well please don't keep this layman in suspense, who are those 13... the disciples or... who?

Methinks that's verse 13, not part of the text.

John 1: … 12But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God 13children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God.

jlisenbe · Nov 2, 2018, 03:28 PM

So you DO believe God will damn over 10 billion humans. Hardly a loving God.

Thanks for making your belief clear. I'm interested in such beliefs - especially from you, who makes such an issue of "evidence" and yet believes the words of an unknown writer from 2 thousand years ago. I wouldn't call that evidence but you're free to believe what you want.

Most Christians have gone beyond that need to believe such bad things about those who don't hold to the same ideas. Biblical literalists are fewer and fewer as we move deeper into the 21st century.

Your argument is with the words of Jesus, and not with mine. I'll let you argue with Him. I suspect you have no idea what "most Christians" have done, but rather than picking and choosing what to believe on the basis of my own tastes and preferences, I'll just choose to believe the words of the man who was raised from the dead.

I'm not arguing with you; I'm asking you.

It's interesting to me that you believe, on the basis I suppose of the Bible, that God is a loving God, but seem unable to believe what the same Bible teaches, that He is also coming for justice. Now as to who will be subject to that judgement, it will be the guilty, which is to say those still in their sins.

Wondergirl · Nov 2, 2018, 04:14 PM

Now as to who will be subject to that judgement, it will be the guilty.

I'm guilty, you're guilty; all are guilty.

jlisenbe · Nov 2, 2018, 04:16 PM

Yes indeed.

talaniman · Nov 3, 2018, 11:01 AM

I respect your scholarship and knowledge of your bible, JL, but I must also acknowledge the many sects of Christianity, some more similar to your position than others, but also the many more, almost half the people of the world, who differ in custom, culture, and tradition, and name. Amazingly though the similarities and commonality is so striking I wonder why such deep conflicts from those differences.

I suspect that it's more a difference of the leaders of faith than the faith itself, and the strictness of the shepherds who dominate their flock for their own purpose which in simple human terms is personal power and wealth. Yes the history of a land, region, and it's people, is what shapes these great books, but one must acknowledge that it's not limited to one people, one region, or one religion.

How this comes together as we evolve naturally I can't say, but all have merit as more is revealed and lessons learned. We just ain't their YET! There is certainly enough room to disagree.

jlisenbe · Nov 3, 2018, 11:18 AM

I hear what you're saying, but just because there is a wide variety of beliefs does not make all of them valid. There truth in this to be found. I can find no better place to look than the Bible, and there are many plain and clear truths to be found there, independent of the beliefs of man.

talaniman · Nov 4, 2018, 08:27 AM

The beliefs of others is no less valid to them, as yours is to you, and that's an accepted fact. Conversion is a matter of choice, no matter where you came from or are going to.

jlisenbe · Nov 4, 2018, 01:03 PM

The problem with believing that there are many valid religious beliefs is that the person never comes to a conclusion. To believe everything is really to believe in nothing. It's a life of maybes. If a math teacher puts a problem on the board, and six students come up with different answers, then no one believes that all six students are correct. Either one is correct and the others incorrect, or all six are incorrect, but all six are not correct. Strange that we know that of math, and yet believe that there is no real truth about God, so therefore everyone must be correct.

Wondergirl · Nov 4, 2018, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

The problem with believing that there are many valid religious beliefs is that the person never comes to a conclusion. To believe everything is really to believe in nothing. It's a life of maybes. If a math teacher puts a problem on the board, and six students come up with different answers, then no one believes that all six students are correct. Either one is correct and the others incorrect, or all six are incorrect, but all six are not correct. Strange that we know that of math, and yet believe that there is no real truth about God, so therefore everyone must be correct.

That's not what Tal said. He said, "The beliefs of others is no less valid to them, as yours is to you."

I worked in LibraryLand with coworkers and volunteers who were born into the Muslim religion and the Hindi religion. Each spoke enthusiastically about his/her faith's blessings and celebrations and observances. Years ago I babysat for a Jewish family who told me about their holidays and rituals. It would have been the height of disrespect for me to tell any of them that what they believed since birth, beliefs that were part of their daily lives and prayers and worship, were evil and should be given up, that only Christianity is correct and if they don't change over, they're going to Hell.

They shared their religions with me but didn't preach to me and threaten hellfire, nor would I do that to them. I would not expect any of them to forsake a lifelong belief any more than they would expect me, a lifelong Christian, to become Muslim or Hindi or Jewish.

How do you, JL, behave with coworkers and friends who have different beliefs from yours?

jlisenbe · Nov 4, 2018, 03:21 PM

It would have been the height of disrespect for me to tell any of them that what they believed since birth, beliefs that were part of their daily lives and prayers and worship, were evil and should be given up, that only Christianity is correct and if they don't change over, they're going to Hell.

You need to reread my post. You have fallen into the same error. Everyone cannot be right. Jesus said that salvation is available ONLY through Him. "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father but through me." Now you have to decide if He is right or not. As to your coworkers, no, I would not just confront them and tell them they are wrong, but I would start with the understanding, in my own mind, that they are in error. I would pray for them and trust God for opportunities to tell them the Gospel. I would not be as concerned about their feelings as I would be about the truth.

I really don't understand you. You stated in an earlier post that, aside from the first three chapters of Genesis, you have a literal understanding of the Bible, but you don't seem to believe the statements of Christ. If indeed, "No comes to the Father but by Me," then don't you think your friends need to know that?

Wondergirl · Nov 4, 2018, 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

You need to reread my post. You have fallen into the same error. Everyone cannot be right. Jesus said that salvation is available ONLY through Him. "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father but through me." Now you have to decide if He is right or not. As to your coworkers, no, I would not just confront them and tell them they are wrong, but I would start with the understanding, in my own mind, that they are in error. I would pray for them and trust God for opportunities to tell them the Gospel. I would not be as concerned about their feelings as I would be about the truth.

Why would they believe my truth is truer than their truth?

I really don't understand you. You stated in an earlier post that, aside from the first three chapters of Genesis, you have a literal understanding of the Bible

I did not say that. I question if there was a worldwide flood, if Balaam's donkey talked, if a great fish swallowed Jonah, if Moses parted the Red Sea, and so on.

jlisenbe · Nov 4, 2018, 04:14 PM

Why would they believe my truth is truer than their truth?

The question is, do you believe "your truth" is true. You seem to be unconvinced. You seem not willing to even accept the statements of Jesus. As I said earlier, to believe everything is to believe nothing.

Regarding the first three chapters of Genesis, you said you regarded it as an allegory, so I assumed you regarded the rest of the Bible as true. My mistake.

Wondergirl · Nov 4, 2018, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

The question is, do you believe "your truth" is true. You seem to be unconvinced. You seem not willing to even accept the statements of Jesus. As I said earlier, to believe everything is to believe nothing.

Regarding the first three chapters of Genesis, you said you regarded it as an allegory, so I assumed you regarded the rest of the Bible as true. My mistake.

You certainly take huge leaps in logic as to what I said and what you have decided I believe!

jlisenbe · Nov 4, 2018, 05:07 PM

Then tell us what you believe. Is your "truth" true? Are the statements of Jesus true? If his statements are true, then aren't you under some obligation to tell your co-workers the truth?

talaniman · Nov 4, 2018, 05:17 PM

Is this guy telling the truth?

You believe him don't you?

jlisenbe · Nov 4, 2018, 05:41 PM

That the stock market is up since Trump's election? Are you kidding? Only a raging idiot would deny that. Yes I believe it.

talaniman · Nov 4, 2018, 05:51 PM

Come on man! So are hate crimes and that's what the chart is about. You seem to see what you want to see. More lies by YOUR side!

Be glad when this silly season is over.