Not your rhetoric Tom the US and Obama. If they (Egypt) decide to move into the "jihadist" camp the rhetoric will be vitrolic rather than recogition that they have made a decision for themselves.

I ask you this could China have been reformed without a communist revolution, without knowing the depths of despair? Niether I suggest can the Islamic world be reformed without first tearing itself apart and no amout of yankee B?S will stop it

Problem is... nobody really gives a damn what they do to themselves... the problem is they like to share in the misery they create for themselves in the Muslim world by spreading it wherever they can. And THAT is where the real danger lies.

Agreed, but interfering in their revolution won't endear you to them or be welcomed. Whatever the outcome, we need to stop listening to the bleeding hearts and concentrate on helping those who want to leave. It's too bad that the revolutionaries are facing a well trained and armed military force, that should have been taken into account before an opportinistic take over of a remote city. The question in Libya isn't whether Gadhafi is a despot who has been there too long, that is self evident, but whether the people have the will and ability to govern themselves.

Yes Islam has a world view that the rest of us don't like and would certainly fight to resist. However embracing their national aspirations doesn't do anything for us, opposing them does nothing either

Oh I agree... let them kill themselves... and if the winner threatens us afterwards... then we kill them when the time comes. There is nothing to WIN in Libya... there is no strategic advantage to us there at all.

China reformed ? Bwaaahaaahaaa!!
We just witnessed 2 US reporters beaten to the point of hospitalization for attempting to cover people strolling in the streets carrying jasmine flowers .
I guarantee you that the people of China will not be permitted to demonstrate the way the people are doing on the streets of the ummah. They are MORE free than the Chinese people.
What are you talking about.. reforms?? The cadres there are the same group of dynastic Hans that have ruled the country for centuries.
The people are still slaves to a feudal system.

Yes that might be but the wars, internal strife and blood letting have stopped. Don't kid yourself your own people aren't slaves to a feudal system, only difference is they can leave if they want to, but they have nowhere to go. That's the problem of running to escape your problems. Sooner or later there is nowhere left to run.

Tom might have told you this before. I knew a fellow who was up the Yangsee in 1948. He said anything the communists did to China was an improvement. So obviously he had the opportunity to observe the nationals and pre-communist China. Now we know that not all they did was an improvement, but when people are persecuted they take revenge. I have seen communist China. What I saw was a peaceful law abiding people going about their business without repression. No more cops on the street there than you see anywhere. No army in sight. That wasn't staged for my benefit. How you think a Muslim country with its squalor and repression is better is beyond me

The civil war is almost over. Q~Daffy has pushed east .The rebels ? The smart ones are crossing the border ,the rest will be mopped up and dealt with after Q~Daffy throws out the foreign press.

What is the US policy after the golfer publicly called for Q~Daffy's removal and didn't back it up ?
We did not stand by a dictator in Egypt and we did not stand by the rebels in Libya. Does anyone wonder why the Saudis would make a move on Bahrain without consulting Obama ?

That's because everyone except his few loyal whoreshippers see him for what he is. A Blowhard. And worse... a blowhard without a spine or moral backbone. Just a ideolog that's not smart enough to comprehend when he has made stupid mistakes.

He and his flunkies should have simply remained quiet about Libya. We have no interests there... nor a pro-western population there. Except when they want something for free anyway. No people can appreciate freedom unless they have fought and died to earn it for themselves.

Hello again, tom:

We haven't been happy with the way things turn out over there for several century's. Why would you think this time would be different? If they didn't run the gas station, we wouldn't care.

Drill, baby, drill.

excon

Bigger question . Show me the example where an unconstrained dictator fell to popular uprising without external help ?

It doesn't happen. So either we put up or shut up. Our actions this year have been pusillanimous .It is worse than GHW Bush betrayal of the Shia in Iraq 1990 .

Hello again, tom:

What you call betrayal, I call common sense... Now, if it were up to me, I'd have SAVED my troops for events just such as those that are now unfolding. However, George W. Bush decided to expend his troops on wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan - WITHOUT a draft and WITHOUT paying for them, I might add.

So, although I'd LIKE to go in and DO what our troops SHOULD be doing, our guys are just plain tuckered out. We're spread too thin. We can't save the Libyans WITHOUT risking ourselves... Yup, it's Bush's fault.

excon

I'll disagree with that... our soldiers didn't enlist to fight and die for other countries civil wars where we have zero interest.

Again I ask . Show me the example where an brutal absolute dictator was ousted from a country without external help ?

What was Mubarack's mistake ? What was the mistake of Palavi ?They weren't brutal enough .
Why isn't the Taliban or Saddam ruling their nations ? Because of external intervention.

GHWBush incited the Shia to revolt and did not back them . That was betrayal .

Wikileak docs proved what we already know... that Q~Daffy personally ordered the terrorist attack on PanAm 103 .

I did not say we should intervene in Egypt or now in Bahrain . But I have said we should in Libya and Iran. The interest we have in both is that those are nations and regimes that have attacked us .

This is a matter of INTERNAL politics and not for the "World Police" to get involved in.
Yes, it may well be a pooh hole in a rubbishy state, but it is also a Sovereign Nation and that fact should be respected.
No action should be taken against either side without a clear resolution from the UN and security council.

Our President, who apparently thinks golf and NCAA brackets are the most urgent thing he has to tackle, at least had jokes ready for his Secretary of State over her frustration with his voting present on Libya.

This president is the joke, and I'm not laughing.

And in a decade the free world will bemoan the inaction that could've prevented the next Rwanda or Darfur.

Evita has had it. She told Blitzer she's outa there in 2012. She's gone from 'aint no way tired '
To I'm tired in 2+years as the lead diplomat for Waldo.
Ruth Marcus - Obama's 'Where's Waldo?' presidency

The problem with that is there are how many countries in the world today? How many are hopping up to spend their money and their lives to do it? The Idiot-in-chief has spent so much money the last 4 years QUADRUPLING the national debt... we really can't afford to do it unless we really get something valuable for it.

Yeah something MIGHT happen... but anyone that's going to point fingers can be told "Well why didn't YOU do something about it then?" We aren't the only country with an Army in the world.

Iraq makes sense... Afghanistan makes sense... Libya? Not a chance. Nor would Yemen or Egypt, or any other Muslim majority nation for that matter.

Like a rich spoiled kid... they can't appreciate what they have if its handed to them. THe poor kid that had to work and earn everything understands the value of things... Freedom is just like that.

Like it or not we lead the free world... or used to.

Why not do a Panama like action?. decapitate the snake and move on. I understand Curley. The Brits couldn't wait to free al-Megrahi so BP could make a contract with Q~Daffy . But the US ? Our only relationship with the guy has been a hostile one .

Even if we got the oil fields... Obama and his hacks would demand they be capped and not allow us to get any of it.

Just like they do with our own massive oil reserves.

And it does come down to the devil you know may be better than the devil you don't.

He's been a royal A-hole... but since Regan bombed his house and killed his kid... he's been a far more quiet A-hole.

I'd rather send a cruise missile up Hugo Chavezes A-hole before we did it to the Libyan Lunatic.