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    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #81

    Dec 1, 2012, 02:58 AM
    What nonsense ! How could a single oyster harvesting operation be a threat to harbor seals ? And even if it was there were mitigations that could've been employed to remedy. Being from NY ,I'm well aware of and approve measures to protect the oyster beds of the nation . It wasn't that long ago that oysters were a staple food of the poor here. Long before pizza ,Nathan's hotdogs ,bagels and street cart prezels ,oysters were the food identified with NY .The NY harbor beds virtually disappeared with the combination of harbor dredging and pollution. Now they are on the rebound thanks to conservation efforts. But what good are all the efforts if managed harvesting cannot take place?

    As usual the left has it all backwards. The best way to manage and preserve public lands is not government management . The best proven way is leasing rights to private enterprise.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #83

    Dec 1, 2012, 10:51 AM
    Yes especially the part about the bogus $1 million study on the effect of the oyster operation on harbor seals. If even Sen Dianne Feinstein has a problem with the decision then you know it's extreme.
    TUT317's Avatar
    TUT317 Posts: 657, Reputation: 76
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    #84

    Dec 3, 2012, 02:09 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post

    As usual the left has it all backwards. The best way to manage and preserve public lands is not government management . The best proven way is leasing rights to private enterprise.
    Good idea. That way we can drill it and mine it.


    Tut
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #85

    Dec 3, 2012, 05:29 AM
    Hello Tut:
    The best proven way is leasing rights to private enterprise.
    Good idea. That way we can drill it and mine it.
    Good one. VERY good!

    Excon
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #86

    Dec 3, 2012, 08:00 AM
    You couldn't have asked for a more responsible steward of the environment than this oyster company. Apparently you're fine with government using shoddy "science" to bully them out of business and renege on their promise, causing people to lose their jobs, homes and land. Again so much for liberal compassion...
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #87

    Dec 3, 2012, 08:48 AM
    You can mock it all you want to ;but the only reason there is a lobster industry left in New England is because there were leasing rights and a quota system established. Leasing rights for public lands is the best way to preserve them and for conservation .
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #88

    Dec 3, 2012, 09:48 AM
    The best way to preserve the land and its ecology is to leave them alone and let nature do what she does.

    Its just more profitable for them to be leased to private interests. Still looking for the science and studies that say this fellow was a good steward while he made his million on oysters, and how he treated and paid his 30 workers.
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #89

    Dec 3, 2012, 10:19 AM
    I gave you all the links you needed. Drakes Bay was recognized as an outstanding steward of the environment, scientists sided with them over the feds, and their employees are devastated.

    "It's disbelief and excruciating sorrow," he said of the mood at the oyster farm, where 30 people are employed, including seven families that live on the property.

    "There are 30 people, all in tears this morning, who are going to lose their jobs and their homes," Lunny said. "They are experts in seafood handling and processing in the last oyster cannery in California, and there is nowhere for them to go."
    Not to mention the feds broke the contract that was to be renewed in perpetuity. But go ahead, keep bobbing an weaving and otherwise showing your lack of compassion and disrespect for science and the truth.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #90

    Dec 3, 2012, 10:53 AM
    Tal ,you in Texas should know what happens when we let the brush grow unmanaged . Natures ways are not always in the best interests of humans . We can harvest oysters and also preserve them at the same time. Around here we have a terrible need to cull the deer herds ;they are a great source of nutrition ,while at the same time collecting license fees for the right to hunt them . It wasn't that many years ago that progressives understood conservation. I guess the enviro-wackos took over the movement .
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #91

    Dec 3, 2012, 10:55 AM
    Deer herds were culled naturally by predators, but man has moved into their territory and upset the balance of nature.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #92

    Dec 3, 2012, 10:58 AM
    OK what would the natural predators for deer be ? Maybe you think we should coexist with coyotes and bobcats in the suburbs too ?
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #93

    Dec 3, 2012, 11:09 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    Deer herds were culled naturally by predators, but man has moved into their territory and upset the balance of nature.
    Man is part of nature, too.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #94

    Dec 3, 2012, 11:13 AM
    Nah we are locust who need to be exterminated in the womb.
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #95

    Dec 3, 2012, 11:27 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    nah we are locust who need to be exterminated in the womb.
    Locust are probably protected.
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #96

    Dec 3, 2012, 02:51 PM
    As if the Drakes dilemma isn't a bad a enough example of the federal government that 3/4 of liberals love run amok, the IRS has been chasing an "illegal eagle", sending the owners of Robert Rauschenberg's "Canyon" depicting a stuffed bald eagle a $29.2 million tax bill plus "undervaluation penalty" of 40% for another $11.2 million plus interest.

    On Wednesday last week, New York's Museum of Modern Art unveiled its most recent gift, and one of the most significant in its history: Robert Rauschenberg's "Canyon" (1959). Rauschenberg was among the leading American artists of the post-World War II era, and "Canyon" is a "combine," a kind of large-scale, three-dimensional collage that includes photographs, pieces of wood, a mirror, a pillow and a stuffed bald eagle.

    The arrival of "Canyon" at MoMA is the culmination of a five-year absurdist farce—one tinged more by Kafka than Feydeau—that involved the IRS, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and the heirs of art dealer Ileana Sonnabend. It might have been laughable, except that the stakes were so high.

    Sonnabend, a dealer and collector, died in 2007, leaving a collection of art by Rauschenberg as well as such contemporaries as Andy Warhol and Jasper Johns. It was valued at about $1 billion. Her heirs, Nina Sundell and Antonio Homem, paid about $471 million in taxes on the value of the collection, selling some $600 million worth of art from it to do so.

    But "Canyon" was another story. The presence of the stuffed eagle meant it couldn't be sold without violating the 1940 Bald and Golden Eagle Protection Act and the 1918 Migratory Bird Treaty Act. Since the artwork couldn't be sold, logic dictated that it be listed as having zero value, which is what the Sonnabend family's three appraisers, one of them Christie's auction house, did.

    But don't look for "logic" in any government dictionary. In the summer of 2011, the IRS sent the family an unsigned report appraising "Canyon" at $15 million. When they rejected the valuation, the government upped the ante: The appraisal was increased to $65 million, which yielded a $29.2 million tax bill. And the IRS levied a special "undervaluation penalty" of 40%, applied in cases where a party has made what the IRS deems a "gross understatement" of a property's value. That added $11.2 million to the tab. Plus interest.

    Only in the fantasy bazaar of the U.S. government's imagination can an item that is worthless carry a multimillion-dollar price tag.

    Ms. Sundell and Mr. Homem had another option: donate "Canyon" to a museum. But since they were declaring that it had no value, they would have to forfeit the charitable deductions that normally accrue to individuals in such cases. In the end, this is what they chose to do. "Canyon," which had been on extended loan to the Metropolitan Museum of Art, now joins five other Rauschenberg combines at MoMA. In exchange, the government has dropped its $40 million-plus claim against Sonnabend's estate.

    "Canyon" had, in fact, been in the feds' sights long before this particular debacle. According to a New York Times story last summer, in the early 1980s the combine had caught the attention of the United States Fish and Wildlife Service, which tried to seize it from Sonnabend.

    A deal was struck allowing her to keep possession as long as the work remained on public display. The issue resurfaced a few years later. In 1988, Rauschenberg himself had to submit a notarized letter stating that the eagle had been killed and stuffed by one of Teddy Roosevelt's Rough Riders long before the 1940 law went into effect.
    Someone inherits a piece of art, pays the estate taxes on it, then gets pursued by the IRS again which says it can't be sold rendering it worthless, then bills them $29 million in taxes plus an undervaluing fee plus interest. Seriously?

    If only Rauschenberg had used an eagle killed by a windmill instead of one shot by a Rough Rider. Perhaps Drakes Bay Oyster Co. should have gotten windmills involved as well.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #97

    Dec 3, 2012, 02:57 PM
    Speaking of windmills, could Don Quixote be resident in the IRS
    TUT317's Avatar
    TUT317 Posts: 657, Reputation: 76
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    #98

    Dec 4, 2012, 01:08 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    You couldn't have asked for a more responsible steward of the environment than this oyster company. Apparently you're fine with government using shoddy "science" to bully them out of business and renege on their promise, causing people to lose their jobs, homes and land. Again so much for liberal compassion...

    I completely agree with your thoughts on the matter, but my response was in relation to the claim that, "The best way to manage and preserve public lands is not government management. The best proven way is leasing rights to private enterprise"

    I was just wondering what Tom had in mind with the above statement.

    Is he suggesting that the best form of management of a wilderness area can be found in actively digging something up or chopping it down?

    Is he suggesting that a wilderness areas is properly managed by handing out a variety of leases to private companies and that somehow the total of these private activities will constitute overall management?

    The oyster farmers appear to manage their small part of the environment very well. But they don't constitute the overall management of the park. I am sure they were happy managing their bit.


    Tut
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #99

    Dec 4, 2012, 05:07 AM
    Is he suggesting that the best form of management of a wilderness area can be found in actively digging something up or chopping it down?
    Sometimes yes . I already spoke of the lack of wilderness management related to out of control wild fires . One of the things I do in my spare time is help trail blaze in public parks . The advantage of my efforts to make access easier for recreational purposes is that the trails become conviently placed fire breaks .
    I'll go further to say that managed logging is better for a forest than unimpeded growth . I also already pointed out that leasing rights of federal ocean areas to fisheries and lobstermen resulted in the preservation and conservation of the lobster population in New England .
    Before enviro-wackos took over the debate ,conservationists recognized these facts.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #100

    Dec 4, 2012, 01:01 PM
    So you trail blaze with a bulldozer Tom

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