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  • Oct 27, 2018, 11:23 AM
    excon
    Hello again, tom:

    I think you're right, and I think it's inevitable. The next civil war is gonna be called Civil War 1.2.. That's cause we never finished the first one. We LET the south keep its traitorous monuments, and statues. We LET them fly their battle flag. We LET them keep their Jim Crow laws..

    We should have unalterably VANQUISHED them, OCCUPIED them, RE-EDUCATED them, and eased them back into civil society very carefully...

    We'll do it this time, I betcha..

    excon, Jewish warrior
  • Oct 27, 2018, 11:43 AM
    tomder55
    is this shooting the result of Trump inciting too ? That would be a very hard case to make . Northern occupation lasted between 1865 and 1877 . It was called Reconstruction. It was a mixed bag of success and failure . Knocking down statues does not purge thought . Just ask the Taliban and ISIS if that has worked for them. This time there are no geographic delineations . So I guess your goal will be the equivalent of ethnic cleansing ; similar to what happened to loyalists after the Revolution or to Jews and Christians in most of the Middle East.
  • Oct 27, 2018, 01:31 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    is this shooting the result of Trump inciting too?
    As Athos said in this thread yesterday: "Trump hammers every day against his targets and no one should be surprised when the weak-minded among his followers translates his tweets and comments into action."
  • Oct 27, 2018, 01:54 PM
    tomder55
    maybe you should read up on Robert Bowers . He made many comments on social media that he did not vote for Trump and did not like him because he has Jews in his cabinet . Trump's grandchildren are being raised in the Jewish faith and few President's have been more supportive of Israel. But none of that fits everyone's narrative of Trump .
  • Oct 27, 2018, 02:06 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    maybe you should read up on Robert Bowers . He made many comments on social media that he did not vote for Trump and did not like him because he has Jews in his cabinet . Trump's grandchildren are being raised in the Jewish faith and few President's have been more supportive of Israel. But none of that fits everyone's narrative of Trump .

    Trump spews hatred and harming those we hate. And that's what Bowers did.
  • Oct 27, 2018, 02:46 PM
    talaniman
    Evil is as evil does. One or a group. It's a big mistake to assign rational reasoning to a homicidal lunatic. Better to check and see if we had a full moon. That's as valid as any other explanation.

    https://www.almanac.com/content/full-moon-october

    Or was he trying to top the bomb lunatic?
  • Oct 27, 2018, 03:06 PM
    tomder55
    what nonsense ! Here Bower's tweet about Trump


    https://gellerreport.com/wp-content/...-for-Trump.png
  • Oct 27, 2018, 10:21 PM
    jlisenbe
    Remember, Tom. Facts have no place in the thinking of many people. There's no more despicable person than Maxine Waters. She has openly and repeatedly called for violence against republicans, but that's OK since she is a democrat.
  • Oct 28, 2018, 07:21 AM
    talaniman
    Really JL? After a loony sent bombs to many former and present democratic officials, another loony kills 11 people in a synagogue, and yet another loon in Kentucky tries to enter a church fails and kills two people at a grocery store,

    Kentucky gunman attempted to enter predominantly black church minutes before grocery store shooting - NY Daily News

    All you got is Maxine is despicable? I have never heard her call for violence, harassment yes (Maybe not a good move!), but violence NO, but she did get two pipe bombs from the loon.

    After horrific events this past week that's all you got and speak of FACTS? Really? The real FACT is there are a lot of dangerous homicidal lunatics just waiting to reek death and destruction on innocent people. I think its pointless to worry about the politics, but we better deal with the disaster.

    Disturbing you target Maxine Waters, but leave the dufus and his long onslaughts of hate speech and actually calling for violence out of the mix.

    https://www.arcamax.com/newspics/cac...23/1672300.jpg
  • Oct 28, 2018, 12:55 PM
    Athos
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Remember, Tom. Facts have no place in the thinking of many people. There's no more despicable person than Maxine Waters. She has openly and repeatedly called for violence against republicans, but that's OK since she is a democrat.


    The only one that needs to worry about facts is you yourself.

    Maxine Waters agreed with harassing Republicans at public places after Sarah Saunders was so harassed. Waters was roundly criticized by Democrats including Nancy Pelosi for this remark which she gave ONCE at a rally in Los Angeles - hardly "repeatedly calling for violence".

    The one who repeatedly calls for violence is your Trump. He does it in the most violent words and has been doing it since he first began his campaign.

    Check your facts so you don't present yourself as ignorant.
  • Oct 28, 2018, 01:30 PM
    jlisenbe
    Quote:

    Disturbing you target Maxine Waters, but leave the dufus and his long onslaughts of hate speech and actually calling for violence out of the mix.
    How about the supporter of Bernie Sanders who actually DID commit an act of violence, shooting republican congressmen? Do you hold Sanders responsible for that? I don't, just like I don't hold Trump responsible for what some loonies did. BTW, the shooter at the Jewish ceremony was actually a strong opponent of Trump, but you even want to hold Trump responsible for him. So you might be the one who needs to get his facts straight. It's just looney-tune politics to put this at Trump's feet. It's election time maneuvering.

    As for Auntie Maxine, concerning the LA riots, this is what she said. See if it sounds like a denunciation of violence to you. “If you call it a riot, it sounds like it was just a bunch of crazy people who went out and did bad things for no reason. I maintain it was somewhat understandable, if not acceptable. So I call it a rebellion.” So burning down buildings, destroying private property, and killing people is viewed, to her, as "acceptable". Get serious.

    Her repeated calls for harassing republicans is what I was referring to. You might not consider it violence, but if it happens to you, you'll have a different point of view. "The people are going to turn on them. They're going to protest. They're going to absolutely harass them until they decide that they're going to tell the President, 'No, I can't hang with you.'" These are the words that stir anger, and anger stirs violence.

    Does Trump need to learn to keep his mouth shut? Absolutely, but don't act like he is alone in that regard. A little honesty would go a long ways.
  • Oct 28, 2018, 02:39 PM
    jlisenbe
    1 Attachment(s)
    Try explaining your excuses to these people.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/201...-rally-n585096


    Attachment 49077
  • Oct 28, 2018, 02:58 PM
    jlisenbe
    More non-violent democrats. https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/738580604736786434

    There is violent behavior on both sides, and the only answer I see is for the rest of us to abandon our own hate speech and oppose this violence, no matter what the source. It should not be politicized. We should not fold our arms and insist that our side has no problem with violent behavior or with those who take political rhetoric to an unhealthy extreme.
  • Oct 28, 2018, 03:17 PM
    Athos
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    How about the supporter of Bernie Sanders who actually DID commit an act of violence, shooting republican congressmen? Do you hold Sanders responsible for that? I don't, just like I don't hold Trump responsible for what some loonies did

    False equivalence. Bernie never promoted violence against anyone. Trump promotes violence consistently. Backed by the power of the bully pulpit, Trump influences his supporters, especially those on the brink. As president, his responsibility is to set the proper tone to inhibit violence. He does the opposite.

    Quote:

    As for Auntie Maxine, concerning the LA riots, this is what she said. See if it sounds like a denunciation of violence to you. “If you call it a riot, it sounds like it was just a bunch of crazy people who went out and did bad things for no reason. I maintain it was somewhat understandable, if not acceptable. So I call it a rebellion.” So burning down buildings, destroying private property, and killing people is viewed, to her, as "acceptable". Get serious.
    You put words in her mouth that she never said. "Burning down buildings, destroying private property, and killing people". Those are YOUR words, not Maxine Waters'. Who needs to get serious now?


    Quote:

    Her repeated calls for harassing republicans is what I was referring to. ... anger stirs violence
    If your position is what politicians say stirs anger and anger stirs violence, then just about every politician is guilty. But political speech is not the issue here. The issue is DIRECT incitement to violence using unmistakably violent encouragements to attack the opposition.


    Quote:

    Does Trump need to learn to keep his mouth shut? Absolutely, but don't act like he is alone in that regard. A little honesty would go a long ways.
    Trump alone is guilty of this. His thuggish behavior is recorded in Tweets and videos for anyone to see. You on the right-wing ought to take your own advice re honesty. Taking a page from Trump's playbook, you accuse others of the very thing you (and Trump) are guilty of. Dishonesty is rampant among the right.
  • Oct 28, 2018, 04:01 PM
    jlisenbe
    Quote:

    You put words in her mouth that she never said. "Burning down buildings, destroying private property, and killing people". Those are YOUR words, not Maxine Waters'. Who needs to get serious now?
    That's what the people were doing whose behavior she found "acceptable". How else can it be understood??

    As for Trump, who is it who attacks Trump supporters? Who is it who, by threat of violence, prevent conservative speakers from speaking on college campuses? Who is it who harass and intimidate republicans in restaurants and other venues? Who was it shot republican congressmen? If you said liberal democrats, you get to go to the front of the line. Trump needs to dial it WAY back, and I agree with you on that, but you are just another self-righteous liberal if you can't see the violence on the left directed at conservatives. It plainly does not bother you, since you say nothing at all about it.

    And yes, there are self-righteous conservatives who do the same thing, and no doubt I have been one of them myself from time to time.
  • Oct 28, 2018, 04:25 PM
    Athos
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    That's what the people were doing whose behavior she found "acceptable". How else can it be understood??

    The people were doing nothing of the sort. Stop reading Infowars and watching FOX.

    Quote:

    As for Trump, who is it who attacks Trump supporters? Who is it who, by threat of violence, prevent conservative speakers from speaking on college campuses? Who is it who harass and intimidate republicans in restaurants and other venues? Who was it shot republican congressmen? If you said liberal democrats, you get to go to the front of the line. Trump needs to dial it WAY back, and I agree with you on that, but you are just another self-righteous liberal if you can't see the violence on the left directed at conservatives. It plainly does not bother you, since you say nothing at all about it.

    I have always condemned violence regardless of the source. I was the first one here to support Scalise when he was shot and to condemn the shooter. Be careful how you cast aspersions.

    The discussion is about Trump and how he promotes violence. If you wish to broaden it to college campuses, start another thread. You have a tendency to make things up as you continue from post to post - not an effective way to engage in a discussion.
  • Oct 28, 2018, 04:31 PM
    jlisenbe
    The people were doing nothing of the sort?? They had to call out 2,000 national guard troops. 63 were killed.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots

    Quote:

    The discussion is about Trump and how he promotes violence.
    Thank you for making my point. You seem to have no concern about violence unless it can be used politically. Well, perhaps that is not a fair statement, but I don't see any concern from liberals about liberal violence, just as most Trump supporters tend to overlook his overheated rhetoric.
  • Oct 28, 2018, 06:19 PM
    Athos
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    The people were doing nothing of the sort?? They had to call out 2,000 national guard troops. 63 were killed.

    [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots"]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots

    I had no idea you were referring to something from almost 30 years ago!! That's a bit of a stretch, isn't it? I was referring to the present-day Trump presidency. But if you want to go back, be careful. Trump has a long public record of thorough nastiness unmatched by anyone in public life.


    Quote:

    Thank you for making my point. You seem to have no concern about violence unless it can be used politically. Well, perhaps that is not a fair statement,
    I don't know what hat you pulled that one out of. Perhaps, you said. PERHAPS? You answered your own comment.

    Quote:

    but I don't see any concern from liberals about liberal violence, just as most Trump supporters tend to overlook his overheated rhetoric.
    You have no idea whether I'm a liberal or a conservative or something else. What I AM is someone who appreciates the facts of a situation. When it comes to facts, Trump is a fact-deprived bozo.
  • Oct 28, 2018, 06:22 PM
    jlisenbe
    Quote:

    I had no idea you were referring to something from almost 30 years ago!!
    That was the riot that MW was referring to.

    Quote:

    You have no idea whether I'm a liberal or a conservative or something else.
    Makes no difference. You seem to be only concerned with one side of the violence, which you think traces back to Trump. If that's true, then who does the liberal violence trace back to?
  • Oct 29, 2018, 05:20 AM
    talaniman
    The dufus is but a symptom of a greater problem. Hate, born of fear. He didn't create the problem, but he sure ain't the solution. Unfortunately I doubt you will ever understand the remarks Congressman Waters makes about those riots long ago, nor how it evolved through the decades since that affect us today in profound ways .

    You're not alone, as many don't get it either. I find it strange you make no comment on the triggering events of those riots of which you speak, tragic in every sense, that lends the context of those comments you find so despicable. In essence you are condoning the wanton brutality and mistreatment and dismissing the anger that it fostered. In no way do I condone or justify the violence that came from the Rodney King beating video at the hands of stupid a$$ cops, but it was the acquittal of those cops of any wrong doing, that was the REAL match that ignited the explosion that followed. There was plenty of fuel already as injustice has a LONG bloody history in this country. No surprise it blew up!

    Cops getting away with murder and mayhem is a theme we have seen for far to long in this country, but it's only a small part of the picture and easy to ignore and miss the implications some refuse to see yet alone acknowledge , of how ugly the bigger picture is. Some don't or can't understand that, or don't care to understand but obviously Maxine Waters does. I can only implore YOU, JL to look deeper into those comments before you dismiss her as despicable.

    I do understand though how horrific events can send us to the depths of our own tribal shelters, as it's no shame to be scared, and seek safety wherever we can find it, but the important thing is what you do about it through the lessons we learn from such events and experiences. If we cannot learn and find ways to do better then we can only drown in our own shat.

    I find it fascinating you can go back that far and still have not learned the lesson of those times. Have you allowed a deep seated resentment to fester. It appears that way.

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