No. When she says no to requests/teasing/pleading/etc. for sex, males will honor that. In fact, they won't even bring it up.

I haven't located the world in which men are not sexually interested in women. I just don't think it's a good reason to get pregnant out of wedlock, and especially if a woman then wants to get other Americans to support her. Better to use some wisdom.

So you're saying it's really the woman's fault.

Okay, males are interested -- and will have self control.

I'm saying we all make decisions, and we all need to shoulder the load of the consequences of our decisions. Don't expect others to do so. If a woman wants to have sex outside of marriage, then spend ten bucks a month and get on the pill. Or she can do whatever she wants, but don't ask other Americans to pay for the consequences of her decision. It's called responsibility. And yes, men need to exercise self control. I fully agree. If a man gets a woman pregnant, then he should help support the child.

So let me ask a question. Since a woman cannot get pregnant outside of sex, then wouldn't you consider her wise to postpone sex until she gets married? And please don't respond with more nonsense about men exercising self control. Men don't get pregnant. It's the woman who will have to make the most sacrifices, and should therefore think the most carefully. It is in her best interest to do so.

Isn't it amazing how many problems are solved by the institution of marriage?

That's what I was taught by my Lutheran pastor father. (Um, what about getting pregnant via artificial insemination?)

If they can't, the castle will be raided.

So men and women both need to exercise self-control. I can go with that.

jlisenbe; I have three questions for you.

1. Why is it that the out of wedlock birth rate was so low in 1960 (about 5%) compared to now (about 40%)? Bear in mind that this was before any birth control than those old unreliable condoms.

You mean back in the day when unmarried pregnant females disappeared to relatives or boarding houses run by nuns that had adoptions services, or back alley doctors and knowledgeable women versed in those kinds of things or given societies attitudes the simple answer was pregnancy went unreported.

2. Can any woman get pregnant who is not having sex? If the answer is "no", then wouldn't it be sensible for unmarried women to simply not have sex? If you feel that is not sensible or possible, then explain how it was both sensible and possible for nearly all of recorded human history. And if they become pregnant by having unprotected sex, then why would any other American be forced to pay to support her?

Yes that was the sensible attitude but maybe you should ask the females why they had sex, or got pregnant. You may be shocked to learn that sensibility was not an option, or sensibility was overwhelmed by that primal need to breed, whether marriage was an option or not. Many women think pregnancy keeps a man so how sensible is that?

3. Would you be OK with the feds issuing a poor person a voucher entitling that person to 300 dollars a month of your income? That way you would have the satisfaction of knowing that you were actually contributing to the benefit of a poor person.

You keep coming back to this idea that it's your personal money going to the welfare of women and children be it a mistake or out of wedlock. Two points to consider, 1. it comes from the general fund yes TAXES. and 2. After a mistake as you call it what does it matter since the outcome is a CHILD and needs love and support because it's here for whatever the reason.

Hey I see your point and I'm sure we all have MANY things we don't want our tax dollars going to. Personally I don't want a rich fat cat getting welfare and destroying my local tax base and I have to subsidize a working person because the bosses don't pay enough for food lights or babysitters.

Yeah it would be nice if all humans were more sensible, there would be no wars, crime, or poverty. If only they were sensible. The reality is humans are not sensible, They are flawed so their thinking, actions, and behavior will be flawed. Wonder why God made us so flawed instead of sensible. Remind me to ask when I meet my maker.

In the meantime I have to make the best choices I can and hope for the best. Stuff happens though even when we make excellent choices. Now we have another CHOICE. How we deal with it. So a woman has made mistakes and you say let her and her mistakes pay the consequences. I simply say since I have made many mistakes myself, the best choice is to forgive and help her do better.

Quite simply that's the choice I make. Maybe that $300 bucks is a small price to pay for being a good human, if you choose to look at it that way. Seems very sensible to me in the grand scheme of things. I mean that could be me depending on the milk of another humans kindness.

One point. Ten dollars a month for birth control pills is the actual price at Walmart and several other stores, not a co-pay. In fact, it is actually cheaper than 10 bucks.

I would much prefer a female see a doctor first just to make sure she isn't taking something that may not be healthy for her just because it's cheap and easily available. That would be the sensible course of action to take, and the path I guided my daughters and female relatives and friends too. Some listened some didn't.

You should read the inserts that come with those products.

Before Roe v. Wade:

Tools of the trade
Surveys in New York City in the mid-1960s revealed the variety of methods used. Treatments women took by mouth included turpentine, bleach, detergents and a range of herbal and vegetable teas. Quinine and chloroquine (malaria medicines) were ingested, and potassium permanganate was placed in the vagina, often causing chemical burns. Toxic solutions were squirted into the uterus, such as soap and turpentine, often causing kidney failure and death. This was the technique used by Vera Drake, the protagonist of Mike Leigh’s 2004 award-winning movie. Insertion of foreign bodies was common and more effective than oral agents. Objects included a coat hanger, knitting needle, bicycle spoke, ball-point pen, chicken bone and rubber catheter. Some women threw themselves off of stairs or roofs in an attempt to end a pregnancy. As a young doctor, I removed a rubber catheter from the uterus of a woman with fever of 106 degrees. A dietitian in a nearby city had inserted the catheter through her cervix to induce an abortion.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/david...b_6324610.html

That is simply not true. Did those things happen? Yes, but not in anything close to being enough to explain the difference in numbers between now and then. The truth is, sexual activity outside of marriage was not nearly as prevalent as it is today. It was a different moral climate.

Then I encourage you to do so, and I'll join you, but don't force others to pay when they don't want to. It is an issue for private charity, not forced charity by the feds. Again, I don't think any American has a right to the wealth or income of another American.

*cough* In which hole had you buried your head????

An age old debate and age old remedies, I think we should reintroduce the chastity belt with some innovations, making it suitable for both sexes, however this would never be adopted in the land of freedom where you are free to stuff up someone's life every day of the week anyway you can

The rise of the divorce rate may be a factor in the changing mores as well as people coming out and rejecting the mores that don't work for them any longer. Or maybe woman have decided they have had enough of being told what to do and how to do it and have taken to planning their own lives. I'm sure we aren't talking about them, as you seemed to be focused on poor females. That's an incomplete equation because as WG points out a female CANNOT have sex and get pregnant without a MAN right. Why is his choice not a MAJOR factor in what you see are those choices? You seem to place no responsibility on HIS choice to make a baby and walk away from it.

Maybe what has changed the moral climate is the choices MEN make when they get a female pregnant. Maybe there is a need for poor MEN to be helped in some ways also. I just reject the notion that it's all the woman's fault for being left with bad options and bad mouthing while the man just finds another female to impregnate. It's a problem for poor folks man or woman to make such 'mistakes". Maybe it's the men we should be educating and guiding to the path of good orderly direction and maybe the female will follow to put it simply.

A helping hand to insure the real victims of the mistakes of fellow humans, their children, have what they need to make better choices would seem the path to go. Rather than exclusively lament the choices of others a SOLUTION to the task at hand would be desirable and more productive. So what's your solution to that? You got a better solution than a social safety net that everybody contributes to equally to ensure help for THOSE victims (THE KIDS) who had no say in the parent(S) bad choices?

Don't let me get started on this notion of taking another mans wealth. A false narrative that hides the truth of blaming the least while the most extract even more. Poor people don't take your wealth, they are just easy targets to blame after you are ROBBED by someone else.

What a well thought out, scholarly response. It's these kinds of non-thinking comments that get tiresome.

I think I can sum this up easily.

1. Women who don't have sex don't get pregnant.
2. If a woman does have sex, she should use some sort of birth control. The same is true for men.
3. If she doesn't do so, and becomes pregnant, then it becomes an issue for her, her family, and the man to solve. She should not have the right to take money (assisted by the feds) from other Americans.
4. Marriage is the solution to all of those problems. Not a perfect solution, but the best solution.
5. That we are living in a sex-saturated, promiscuous culture, much more so than it was 60 years ago, is the most obvious truth in the world to anyone willing to see it. Out of wedlock birth rate differences (800% increase) cannot be explained by backroom abortions and boarding houses. And even if a single woman was "sent off" to have her baby in another city, it would still be listed as an out of wedlock birth. In fact, with legalized abortion and the universal, easy availability of birth control methods, you would think the opposite would have happened.

So why then do men have/want/demand sex?

Men who don't have sex with women don't get them pregnant.

jlisenbe; I think I can sum this up easily.

1. Women who don't have sex don't get pregnant.

Men that get women pregnant should take care of their responsibility or pay consequences for their actions. They also made a choice to have sex.

2. If a woman does have sex, she should use some sort of birth control. The same is true for men.

Agreed and if that doesn't go as planned or something goes wrong, both should RESPONSIBLE for their actions.

3. If she doesn't do so, and becomes pregnant, then it becomes an issue for her, her family, and the man to solve. She should not have the right to take money (assisted by the feds) from other Americans.

And if none of the above lacks the ability or resource to adequately address the problem, then the rest of the village has to help. Again though I must point out that accusing the least of us of robbing us, and letting the ones that are actually robbing us blind not have any blame or consequences is a distraction and impediment to solving an ages old problem.

4. Marriage is the solution to all of those problems. Not a perfect solution, but the best solution.

Do the math, poor people's needs cost a lot less that what our corrupt officials skim from the economy. You still have addressed how to stay married. The failure of marriages to endure makes it not only less than perfect but undesirable because of the devastation and disruption of real lives by all involved. I think that's why people have rejected in growing numbers the institution of marriage and seek other ways of living.

5. That we are living in a sex-saturated, promiscuous culture, much more so than it was 60 years ago, is the most obvious truth in the world to anyone willing to see it. Out of wedlock birth rate differences (800% increase) cannot be explained by backroom abortions and boarding houses. And even if a single woman was "sent off" to have her baby in another city, it would still be listed as an out of wedlock birth. In fact, with legalized abortion and the universal, easy availability of birth control methods, you would think the opposite would have happened.

Actually the opposite is happening as education and availability of options to unwanted pregnancies gives females choices to better themselves and raise their kids without a man's help. More and more that is the choice being made and we have more woman gainfully employed and with good careers. The whole stigma of females having out of wedlock children has lost all it's negative meaning when they take care of their kids. How is that a bad thing?

A cared for well raised child to productive adult hood is becoming the acceptable option despite preoccupation with name callers and label makers. Ill say it again since you focus on the taking of your money, the cost of corrupt politicians shilling for rich donors far outweighs the cost of raising a child be they B@STARD or baptized.

Let's hold everybody equally accountable for their actions, not just poor people, who have few options. Interesting discussion my friend, but I'm not buying out of wedlock kids or poor females have caused all the ills in our society. Marriage is not the answer to corruption, or wage inequality, and banning porn or sex won't change those things. Nor is out of wedlock kids that grow up to be productive good humans a bad thing either. Why even judge those of humble beginnings like they can NEVER learn to do better.

It's a FACT hungry kids can't learn so well, be they ba$tards or baptized, and more women are taking their kids and leaving bad marriages than they did back in the day. So marriage can also be a very sad miserable trap. Seen plenty of those too!

I could resist posting this absolutely perfect representation of my opinions

How on earth you can say the opposite is happening is just mind-blowing. The rate of out of wedlock births is up 800%, but you say it's going down?? Good grief. Facts and truth no longer matter to you.

How is it a bad thing? Well, just for instance, in 2016, 32% of single-parent families with children were living in poverty versus just 7% of two-parent families. Additionally, 63 percent of suicides nationwide are from single parent homes, 75 percent of children in chemical dependency hospitals are from single-parent families, and more than half of all youths incarcerated in the U.S. lived in one-parent families as a child. Those children perform less well in school and are less likely to get a college degree. But fear not, for in Tal's imaginary world, all is well.

Where did you get this nonsense? I've never said poor females have caused all the ills in our society or that marriage is the answer to corruption or wage inequality. I have never suggested we ban sex or porn. What dream world are you living in?

The way to stay married is... to stay married. Not real complicated.

I don't mean to sound ugly, but this has become frustrating. It would be very helpful if you would stop posting the party line and engage in facts. Just five or ten minutes on the internet would show you that children from single parent homes face enormous challenges. You say they need a village. I say they need a mom and dad to raise them. Now some kids don't have that, and we need to help them. I get that. The difference is, my approach is that I need to be involved, and have been for decades. Your approach is to show your heart of compassion by forcing other people to help. Sorry. That's not compassion. It's fake compassion.

Might add that in 1960, about 90% of families were two parent homes. Wonder how it is that they were so much more successful in the business of marriage than we are today?

It had to do with religious beliefs which have been lost, thus leading to the breakdown of marriage and society and the rise of the me generation

Might not be all of the answer, but it certainly is the foundation.