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jlisenbe · Mar 23, 2019, 10:03 AM

why don't our own down-and-out citizens whose ancestors came here centuries ago (to find the American dream) do whatever they can to climb higher?

Great question.

jlisenbe · Mar 23, 2019, 10:15 AM

Saw something yesterday that reminded me of this topic. I was out at a local park and saw a young person being pushed along in a specialized wheelchair. He plainly had no motor skill control at all. Don't know if his mind was working, but I couldn't help but think what he would've given to simply have a working mind and body, and of those who have those minds and bodies and yet do so little with them. Sad.

Wondergirl · Mar 23, 2019, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Saw something yesterday that reminded me of this topic. I was out at a local park and saw a young person being pushed along in a specialized wheelchair. He plainly had no motor skill control at all. Don't know if his mind was working, but I couldn't help but think what he would've given to simply have a working mind and body, and of those who have those minds and bodies and yet do so little with them. Sad.

If only the (lazy or disinterested or unwilling...) people who have the physical and mental ability to earn a living, but sit at home instead, had to switch places for a month with that young man in the motorized wheelchair....

jlisenbe · Mar 23, 2019, 11:14 AM

So true. We should be greatly alarmed! We are beginning to agree on some things.

Wondergirl · Mar 23, 2019, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

So true. We should be greatly alarmed! We are beginning to agree on some things.

Scary, isn't it!

talaniman · Mar 24, 2019, 08:10 AM

You never know how many able bodied people have mental issues, or the ones who are undiagnosed. You never know why a person is unable or as WG says UNWILLING to help themselves. I just believe that all deserve the right help and the right support to help them overcome those so called bad life choices. Some need more than others.

Its often a HUGE frustrating challenge and a never ending endeavor.

Wondergirl · Mar 24, 2019, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by talaniman

You never know how many able bodied people have mental issues, or the ones who are undiagnosed. You never know why a person is unable or as WG says UNWILLING to help themselves. I just believe that all deserve the right help and the right support to help them overcome those so called bad life choices. Some need more than others.

Its often a HUGE frustrating challenge and a never ending endeavor.

You nailed it, Tal!!! That's why I so much enjoyed my Catholic Charities internship and, later as a counselor, helping people realize they had undiscovered strengths and skills that would be important when job hunting. Once they found a job, as counselor I stayed in touch with them to help them deal with emotional/social difficulties. And that's what "lazy, disinterested, and unwilling" people need -- someone in their corner, not only offering suggestions and giving advice, but being their cheerleader, too.

jlisenbe · Mar 24, 2019, 02:04 PM

And that's what "lazy, disinterested, and unwilling" people need -- someone in their corner, not only offering suggestions and giving advice, but being their cheerleader, too.

Great idea. And you must also be willing to let them try and fail without your constant interference. That's what makes people grow. Treat men and women like adults.

Wondergirl · Mar 24, 2019, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Great idea. And you must also be willing to let them try and fail without your constant interference. That's what makes people grow. Treat men and women like adults.

Yep! I did and still do...as we all can do, especially when raising the next generation.

jlisenbe · Mar 24, 2019, 03:10 PM

It's what welfare does not do.

Wondergirl · Mar 24, 2019, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

It's what welfare does not do.

Welfare is fine. Now get well-trained social workers involved to help clients move toward autonomy. Isn't welfare for only so many years? During the early '90s, I had a client who received Section 8 housing and a monthly welfare check. She received an official letter telling her the welfare payments would end and she needed to find a job. Instructions were included for local resources for job hunting.

jlisenbe · Mar 24, 2019, 03:48 PM

She received an official letter telling her the welfare payments would end and she needed to find a job. Instructions were included for local resources for job hunting.

Makes me wonder why that wasn't done on day one. When she had to get busy, she got busy. That is true of most people.

talaniman · Mar 24, 2019, 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Yep! I did and still do...as we all can do, especially when raising the next generation.

I'm on my next, next generation, from 22 -2, 4 boys 3 girls. The moral for me is ALWAYs be willing to give love and support, succeed or fail. In my mind a social safety net for Everybody is NOT charity, but a moral IMPERATIVE.

Good to have unconditional love, tough at times, from family though, but that doesn't mean you can get none from a stranger.

Wondergirl · Mar 24, 2019, 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Makes me wonder why that wasn't done on day one. When she had to get busy, she got busy. That is true of most people.

She was a single mom with a newborn. Her welfare payments lasted until the child was two (when I came into her life). She knew that from the get-go, but had buried it in her subconscious.

talaniman · Mar 24, 2019, 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

She was a single mom with a newborn. Her welfare payments lasted until the child was two (when I came into her life). She knew that from the get-go, but buried it in her subconscious.

Who takes care of the child while she works?

Wondergirl · Mar 24, 2019, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by talaniman

Who takes care of the child while she works?

That then was her problem. She had been a factory worker with low wages before she had gotten pregnant. My internship and connection to her ended about this time. She had started dating a man named Walter whom she married within the next year. I don't know but suspect Walter was helping her financially before their marriage. She did call me a couple of years later to fill me in and let me know she had had a second baby whom they named Hope.

jlisenbe · Mar 24, 2019, 04:23 PM

All of which is why we need to start encouraging marriage and discouraging out of wedlock births. Now Tal and WG will say they agree with that, except they never post it.

talaniman · Mar 24, 2019, 05:40 PM

You can encourage or discourage whatever you want, but you cannot make people do things against their will. It's still their choice. You can't make them good parents either. Would you make a child pay for bad choices by bad parents?

jlisenbe · Mar 24, 2019, 05:50 PM

you cannot make people do things against their will. It's still their choice. You can't make them good parents either. Would you make a child pay for bad choices by bad parents?

Yes, you can make people do things against their will. Happens all the time when people obey laws that keep them from doing what they otherwise would do.

No, we can't make them good parents. Sad but true. But abandoning the concept of marriage is not the answer.

Children have to suffer for poor parenting all the time. It's tragic but reality. That's why I am against out of wedlock births. It is ultimately the children who suffer.

Wondergirl · Mar 24, 2019, 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Yes, you can make people do things against their will. Happens all the time when people obey laws that keep them from doing what they otherwise would do.

Sally goes on a date to see a romantic movie with her longtime boyfriend Charles. After the movie, they drive to the local Dairy Queen and have chocolate sundaes. It's getting late -- but not too late. Charles drives to a popular place on the lakeshore. They get out and sit on a couple of Charles' beach towels and enjoy the gently lapping waves and beautiful night sky. Charles leans in for a kiss that Sally happily returns. Kisses become more impassioned. Everything is just right -- romantic movie, beautiful surroundings, loving boyfriend -- total contentment. Before you can say Jack Robinson, clothes are sliding off bodies.

Now what? JL, please write the rest of the story.