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I initially had the same reaction as Judy, but I found some case law (can't find it right now) where the courts gave the right to "fine" a shoplifter. The idea was to provide a deterrant. The case was bought against the Hudson's Bay Co. and the court's affirmed their ability to charge the offender an amount for such a crime. I believe the idea is reimbursement for the time of the security guard in processing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottGem
I find this bizarre because my understanding is that a fine is the option of the Court to "punish." However, if Scott says so I believe him!
I'm not questioning the right of the store to "charge" the person for the store's time and trouble - I am just surprised by the word "fine."
But again - I believe Scottgem and stand corrected.
Hi there, I',m from Canada and you will probably not get a fine from the store, you will probably get diversion program and have to pay restitution to Loblaws. When is your first court date, that is when you will find out if they will agree to diversion, which they most likely will however if for any reason they do not you still have time to get a lawyer before the next court date. Let us know what happens please.
This post is for all Canadian, ontario living first time offenders. Many "experts" on this help desk are far from knowledgeable in Canadian Law. I have been in this situation before and have a little bit of experience. I know I not only speak for myself when I say anyone who comes here, scared less of what they just did and feel terribly stupid and sorry and just want to find out what they can do and how the system works. {untrue shot removed-<>} Good, honest people mess up sometimes.
Here is some advice that is hopefully helpful as apposed to demeaning.
Having spoken with several lawyers, they will all tell you that they can defend you for $2500 dollars. This cost will get you a lawyer who goes to the court for you (you never have to appear) and they ask the judge for a diversion which is 90% of the time granted if you have no previous record. Along with the diversion and included in the lawyer fee (sometimes) Is a charitable donation made by "you" that doubles the amount of what you stole. The Lawyer should also submit a request to have your finger prints expunged. So if you have the money the lawyer is a good option. There are also student and less experienced lawyers available between $500 - $1200(not including charitable donation) . They can all do the same thing, but will usually need more participation on your part. Ie: letters of recommendation for schools, jobs, things that make you look like a good citizen. Now, there is also the option of representing yourself and only coming up with the charitable donation money, just show up to your court date early, get a public defender to explain you the ropes. This is more risky and more involved, but works. I hope this helps you all. This only works once though guys. Whatever reasons we have for our actions, PLEASE just learn from them and NEVER do it again!!
PS if you represent yourself DO NOT forget to send the request to have your finger prints taken off record, you can do this yourself and you do not want them to come back and haunt you.
While I don't dispute that, I wonder about the need for saying it. Basically your advice tells people in this situation to seek a diversion. Either with or without benefit of counsel. But that's the same advice that serveral us, including non-Canadians, have given in this and similar situations. You added some good advice on the different types of representation. But other than that you repeated advice already given.Quote:
Originally Posted by squirm
Hello squirm:Quote:
Originally Posted by squirm
Uhhhh, I think THAT'S a little demeaning, no? People who come here want advice - not lectures.
excon
Joker123, Once you get to court, if you do not have a lawyer, go to the duty counsel office (show up early, dress nice). It is there that they will tell you whether or not you qualify for diversion. You likely will. If you do the diversion "people" will take you aside and ask you a few questions and ask you to tell them your story. They will decide how much the donation or community service will be. Likely as a first time offender you will be asked to give a charitable donation of double the amount you stole (as I mentioned before) THen you will have to wait until you are called before the judge (may take all day) if you pay the donation that day, this will be your only appearance in court and your charges will be dismissed. I wish you all the best. I am confident you and your sister will be fine.
Duty counsel and other officials will do most of the talking you just say thank you at the end
Comments on this post
squirm disagrees: No its more supportive then demeaning.
First, may I call your attention to the guidelines for using the comments feature found here:
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/feedba...ure-24951.html
You've given some good advice, but you've only been here a month. Not quite enough time to try putting us down.
OK so I'm going tomorrow for fingerprints, I'm so nervous and scared about everything. squirm, should I bring cash on the court date for the fine if they give me one, to pay it right away so I don't have to reappear in court right? What do you think they will do? I'm sooo scared, does it matter that it was 2 of us, and what do I tell the duty counsel when they ask me my story? Do I just say it was a stupid mistake ? Im so scared, but I have never been in trouble with police before, I'm in university, I'm a good kid same with my sister. Do they take stuff like that into account?
We have already answered all these questions. I suggest you read back through the thread.
There is really no need to be scared. As a first offender you can get a diversion and your record will be clean.
OK so for anyone who wants to know what happened if they are in a similar situation. I got there at 930 and it was packed, I put our names on the duty counsel sheet to see the lawyer there for advice and this took all up till 12 and I still didn't get called, so I went into court. As I was sitting there, a lawyer called me to an interview room and said he noticed I had one of those small slips for shoplifting and he said he felt 'bad' for me and he went on to offer me a deal for him to represent me for like $500, and he asked about me an dmy sisters backgrounds what happened, and such. I told him I was in Uni, I work, I have never done this before, and he said it's a shame for us to be punished, and to worry during school and stuff. He then went over what he can do but in the end we declined his services. I went back into the courtroom where I waited and waited, and then out of nowhere the same lawyer went to the women with the papers and asked them to put us up the line because he was going to do his clients now and he added us in at the end, very nice of him to help us out like that, and the judge gave us the Elizabeth Fry Program. Which we then had to proceed outside to the duty counsel and talk to that lawyer. He then told us we will have to donate or do something, we have to call the diversion program place and book an appointment, he mentioned that this will inevitably be our only court visit. He then filled some papers out, and told us he may have time to go back in and finish it before lunch but then lunch came so we had to wait another 1.5 hours or so. Finally at 230 we got back into the courtroom, where we waited some more. We then got called up and the crown signed the diversion program and told us to come back in 2 months again, which confused me since the duty counsel said this will be our only time at court. So I went back to duty counsel and asked him, and he said to just go with the crown. So now me and my sis are going to call the diversion place, set up an appointment, and see what we have to do. The duty counsel lawyer said we won't get community hours, we will most likely weite a letter of apology or donate to charity a sum of $200 for both of us, and he basically said our record will be wiped. The crown didn't take too serious of us, just brushed us aside compared to to others when called up, and the duty counsel guy was very helpful in that he said its not that big a deal. Im just not happy about coming back again in 2 months since the duty counsel convinced me this would be the only court date, but what can you do, it turned out all right, I'm just glad its almost all over, pretty much is. Also the lawyer said to not pay the stores fine, he said in his years of practice he always advised people in my poisition not to pay it, it's a scam, and not one person has reported back to him saying the store sued him for it. So that's my story, very hectic and STRESSFUL day, I had to bus for 2 hrs there and back and wait in line 2 hrs not to mention the courtroom wait, but its what I got do and I did, so I believe everything will be fine now. Hope this helps people who are looking for info on this site, I know I was looking for a story like this when I got caught just to see what exactly happens, anyway, hope this helps, cheers
So everything went pretty much as we said it would. The probable reason for the return to court is for the crown to dismiss the charges assuming you have fulfilled the terms of the diversion.
I will say, if someone reads your experience to not take it as exactly what will happen to them. Each province and court is a bit different. You got stuck with a date where there was a crowded calendar.
But your point that the crown didn't take you too seriously is what we were trying to tell you. A minor shoplifting charge with a first time offense is not going to get the attention of the court. They will brush it aside for more important crimes.
Thanks for letting everyone know what happened. I think it is really helpful when people actually let others know the outcome as well as it helps others learn from the experience.
Hi There, I had a few questions for you as I am in the same situation with Loablaws. Have you gotten anything in mail from them since the lady said that she will will sending me something to sue me. Also what is the diversion program? Are you on probation... for how long? Can you travel during this time? What did you have to do to get out of this?Community hrs? Can you please help me?I am to go to court in Nov. What happens to your record - does it go clean and also your fingerprints?
Thanks for any HELP!! Please respond in the thread I started here:
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/crimin...ed-266295.html
{Mod Note: Please don't piggyback your question on someone else's thread. Anyone wishing to repond to S1976 should follow the link to thethread he started. <>}
Quote:
Originally Posted by s1976
This should be combined with the 2 other posts - same questions, different threads.
K so now my dumb sister threw out all the papers we got from court, because she didn't want my parents to find them. She said the lady at diversion told her to bring papers to the appointment for diversion, but she said she has our files. Is this going to be a problem?
Don't know, but it could be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by joker123
Your arrest papers are on file with the Court. The diversion program does not have them. I would say, yes, this will be a problem.
So what should I do? Call court or div and ask, but when my sis called the div the woman said she has our file but to bring our papers anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by JudyKayTee
Quote:
Originally Posted by joker123
If she already has a copy, then I'd just go and explain your copies are destroyed. I don't see that you have any other choice.
Other people have posted that the div office didn't have the papers so apparently this person is on her toes.
Everything is fine with the fact that I don't have the papers, I called the woman she said its OK.Quote:
Originally Posted by JudyKayTee
Update: Today was my appointment with the lady for diversion. Me and my sis went in together. It took us 1.5 hrs to get there and 1.5 back it was brutal. Anyway, we got there waite a bit, were called into the office with the woman for diversion. She explained everything to us, the rules of the alternative measures program. She said that she will go over what we did in the report and she will ask us questions, like why we did it, what would we do differently, etc etc but before that she explained what happens if we complete the program. She said that it will be granted a stay, which means that if we complete what she says and go back to court they will have it removed, as in completely whip our record. It may take up to 1 yr max for it to be whiped, but could be 3 months, 6 months, etc but 1 yr MAX. she said that this is so that if someone does do it again in that time, they know ,etc etc. she said that the peel region police will have it on file saying we were charged always, but once we did the program, no one else will see it. No employer and such. She said we could leave the country as of now because we have not been convicted. She also mentioned to go have our finger prints removed, fill out the app right after our last court date because the cops will keep it because they don't have to destroy it. All in all she was very nice, and down to earth, she understood what we had to say. She gave us an option of either community service or 15 hrs or $100 donation + a letter of apology since we were students she wanted it to accommodate us as we may not have enough money we can choose service or if we don't have time just pay the donation. She also mentioned that the letter the store sends DO NOT PAY because they just do this to scare you and never go into it in depth as it does cost them money to hire lawyers to write the letters, etc etc and if you don't pay it 99% they won't take you to court and if they do its just to sue you, no criminal charge or anything. All in all, it was very accommodating so bottom line is we do the letter and donation, report back to her in like 2 weeks show her we did it, she sends it to court, we return to court once more, and its all done. It was not bad at all, I'm just lucky we don't live in the US which she explained to us is MUCH stricter. Anyway that's my story, I just wanted to keep updating for people who are in this situation, I know how stressful it was for me. Cheers
Thanks for the update, but that is pretty much what we told you would happen from the very beginning. The info about not paying the fine that the store imposes is interesting though.
Thank God you and your sis made it. I am so stressed out. So how long did it take for you to go to the Diverion lady after your court date i.e. . I am just trying to calculate the whole time line?So you have to go to court in 2 weeks time now after you have done your diversion program? Thanks for all your help & input.
I know how you feel man, it killed me all the waiting and stuff, and I know people say it'll be all right and tonnes of peiople have gone through it and say its nothing, but still, the worry kills. But you, after your first court date, they tell you to call the woman and schedule the appointment when you can, she is very very flexible, at least mine was and she said its cool if you can't make it last second to just call her to rebook it, even when I went some guy was late and she said she'll rechedule for him. So you do that, then go to diversion, 30 min interview then she asks you when you can come back, again you totally choose when to come back, flexible. Then you complete it by that date, come back, she sees that you did your duties, you go back to court and its all done. And my court date was first week October, div was yesterday, I have to come back 4th November, court 8th. That's itQuote:
Originally Posted by s1976
Well, yea it is pretty much what you said, but some people were more pessimistic, and stressed to the max how I need to get a lawyer even thought most people said no, so there was a lot of stress, but its all done now so whatever.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottGem
Also I have another question, the woman said my court date is on the 8th of November at 9 which is a Saturday. Re courts open on Saturday, I can't find the hours for this courthouse anywhere :S
Call her back and ask.
Hi Again, So your whole ordeal took 2 months I guess. You are in Peel area- Mississauga area i.e.. How long did it take for you to book an appt with the Diversion lady?After your court date i.e. when you called her. So are you on probation till the whole charge gets dropped? What happens after your next court date?
Thanks for all your help.
I called her like a week and a half after my court date, you can call whenever but the sooner the better. And no, no probation, nothing like that, I can do whatever I want, no restrictions, I have not been convicted, nothing, no need for probation for a minor offense like this. Its just a matter of completing a letter, and doing a donation. That is all. Honestly man I know you've probably heard this a million times, but don't worry, and I know I could not stop worrying even after hearing people say not to, but take my word on it, if its your first offense, with clean record, you have absolutely nothing to worry about, I regret worrying so much now, my worrying ruined my 2 months. And you I'm in the peel areaQuote:
Originally Posted by s1976
OK, so a letter came in the mail today, surprisingly only one for me none for my sister which is weird, and my dad saw it, and is so devastated as am I it just kills me. I don't know what to do, to pay or not, the lady from diversion said no and lawyers said no, but its for 315 dollars not 512 I don't know what to do. Help
Listen to the advice you got.
So I was granted a 'stay' as I completed the e.fry program. I have one question, if I do a criminal records search for a job or whatnot, will anything come up? No right? Only police in depth search? I'm asking this because I'm getting a job at a bank and I'm assuming they get you to do a crim check. Anyone ? And I've read the past tread about a 'stay' but didn't have much info. Thanks
I know it takes 1 year for them to destroy the fingerprinting but that's not totally destroyed. The employer can't see that but the police always will. Also did you pay the money to loblaws for there civil settlement? How much did they send you ? Thanks again and all the best with your job.
I believe this has been answered before. No conviction, no criminal record.
Oh OK, makes sense, and you they sent me $315 about 3 weeks ago this Monday and it said if I don't may within 15 days sblah blah, never did anything, nothings happened yet, andmy sis didn't get a fine which is weird, I only got one :S, but all in all, I'm through with this stuff and I'm happyQuote:
Originally Posted by s1976
Learn any lesson from this?
Have u not read my posts on this thread?Quote:
Originally Posted by KBC
Quote:
Originally Posted by joker123
Yes, that's why the question was asked.
Obviously I have learned a lot, if you READ my past posts on this thread you will see that I have stated several times that I've learned my lesson and will never do it again. I am still unsure of the fact that its been 'stayed' or 'expunged', as I have a job interview soon they may ask for a crim record check if I was to do one now, what will show up? Nothing? Or will it say its stayed? If it says its been stayed it might as well say I was convictedQuote:
Originally Posted by JudyKayTee
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