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-   -   Right to Bear Arms (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?t=27240)

  • Jun 4, 2006, 05:51 PM
    J_9
    Right to Bear Arms
    I am just curious about everyone's thoughts regarding the Second Amendment and the Right to Bear Arms. I am specifically curious to hear from those of you that live in countries that have been forced to give up your arms.

    Are there more crimes now than before?

    If you live in the US I am curious to find out who would willingly relinquish their personal firearms, whether used for protection or for hunting to feed families.

    I know this may spur a debate, however, we had one recently in my American History class on this subject, but there wasn't anyone from a foreign country to speak up, only blogs that were posted on the internet about the rise in crime in places like England and Australia.

    Just curious

    Janine
  • Jun 4, 2006, 05:56 PM
    CaptainForest
    Canada here.

    While we don't have a total ban on firearms, owning one is not quite common.

    In a major city like Toronto that is.

    Out west they have a lot more.

    Crime is the same.

    I heard the arguments that if you ban guns, crime goes up since criminals know their victims won't have a gun on them.

    Studies have also shown though that if a family owns a gun, they are more likely to use it on another family member than on a burglar. Using it on another family member either intentionally or unintentionally.

    Personally, my family and I do not own a gun and have never owned one, and I have no desire to ever own one. Mainly for the reason above.
  • Jun 4, 2006, 06:03 PM
    J_9
    Yes, my thought on criminals and crime is that only the criminals will have guns.

    No matter what, a criminal will find a way to commit a crime.

    You say that if a family owns a gun they are more likely to use it on another family member. I really like to see the studies you are looking at. When I lived in Alaska practically everyone owned a firearm and it was basically used to protect yourself from grizzly bears and the like. I know I had to use on once while camping.

    Firearms are also used for hunting, which many people do where I live now. These people use it to maintain their food supply so that they can use money that would be spent for other things.

    But your point is well taken, I like to hear the different viewpoints on issues.
  • Jun 4, 2006, 06:11 PM
    CaptainForest
    According to The Fraser Institute (a Canadian think-tank):

    Published November 2003:

    http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/shared...sNav=nr&id=570

    Selected parts:

    Quote:

    Restrictive firearm legislation has failed to reduce gun violence in Australia, Canada, or Great Britain. The policy of confiscating guns has been an expensive failure, according to a new paper The Failed Experiment: Gun Control and Public Safety in Canada, Australia, England and Wales, released today by The Fraser Institute.
    Quote:

    Canada

    The contrast between the criminal violence rates in the United States and in Canada is dramatic. Over the past decade, the rate of violent crime in Canada has increased while in the United States the violent crime rate has plummeted. The homicide rate is dropping faster in the US than in Canada.
    Of course, when a “life sentence” means you only get 25 years and you can get house arrest for a gun crime. New Conservative PM Harper plans to increase that, which I agree with. Punishments have to warrant the crime.

    Quote:

    The Canadian experiment with firearm registration is becoming a farce says Mauser. The effort to register all firearms, which was originally claimed to cost only $2 million, has now been estimated by the Auditor General to top $1 billion. The final costs are unknown but, if the costs of enforcement are included, the total could easily reach $3 billion.
    Don't get me started on this….



    When dealing with shooting in Alaska, that is different than living in a big city. Why does one really need a gun if you are living in a major urban city? Example, Toronto, Montreal, NYC, Chicago

    It is not like the bears come out all the time.
  • Jun 4, 2006, 06:13 PM
    J_9
    Very VERY interesting, thanks for the info. That is kind of what I thought all along.
  • Jun 4, 2006, 06:34 PM
    valinors_sorrow
    To me, the right to bear arms doesn't so much address crime as it alters what a government can or cannot do to its citizens and so to that end I would not relinquish any... although LOL I currently don't own one so maybe I have said too much here already? :eek:
  • Jun 4, 2006, 06:39 PM
    Fr_Chuck
    Part of the reason most believe for a armed population is first for the right to protect thierself from the government also. Remember we just fought a war with the English ( sorry guys) they had military we had just citizens with guns that formed groups.

    They knew that at some point the government may go to far even with the protection of the constitution.

    Next of course I remember the words of Hitler, when he saved them from crime by taking away all the guns.

    For myself, I am a gun collector of sorts, and have a permit to carry a concelled weapon if I want to. I would not easily give away my rights to own weapons.
  • Jun 4, 2006, 06:49 PM
    CaptainForest
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
    Remember we just fought a war with the English ( sorry guys) they had military we had just citizens with guns that formed groups.

    Just? That was like 200+ years ago!

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
    for myself, I am a gun collector of sorts, and have a permit to carry a concelled weapon if I want to. I would not easily give away my rights to own weapons.

    See, that is where you and I differ. I don't think any “ordinary citizen” should be allowed to carry a concealed weapon.
  • Jun 4, 2006, 06:50 PM
    Fr_Chuck
    Well of course I am a retired law enforcement officer, with hours of weapon training, but I go the other way, I think if almost everyone carried one, there would be a lot less crime
  • Jun 4, 2006, 07:52 PM
    J_9
    I am an ordinary citizen who lives in a high crime area, Memphis is not the most friendly of towns when it comes to crime. I have a carry permit also. We have MANY carjackings in our area and when I HAVE to go to those areas I choose to carry to protect my children.

    I do not have to carry, and honestly usually don't, but I like the fact that I am given a choice.
  • Jun 4, 2006, 11:07 PM
    Lungie
    I live in a small town in Australia, I am 28 years of age and have only once seen a gun that was my fathers. When we were all told to hand in our guns my father happily handed it in, no ifs no buts. I believe every country is difference but I feel much safer in a country where it is illegal to carry a weapon, don't get me wrong I am well aware that there are people that do carry them, but the average Jo dose not carry one in their purse. I live approx 40 minutes from city, there is only two gun shops from my home to the city. To be honest its just not something you would if being attacked think about, I'd expect someone one if attacking me to have a knife not a gun.
  • Jun 5, 2006, 06:16 AM
    orange
    Honestly I don't know what I think one way or another... what Captain Forest said about Canada and guns was great, as usual. In the part of Canada I live in, guns are not commonplace in urban centres... they are used on farms and for hunting, whether it be by locals or tourists. This is a great hunting area and we have lots of tourists coming up here to the hunting lodges and for hunting expeditions. Of course those are all shotguns or rifles rather than handguns or semi-automatics, etc. Actually I had never seen a handgun until my biological father shot his girlfriend and then himself with one. So given that horrible experience, they frighten me.

    Similar to Lungie mentioned, most people in my area carry a knife for protection, I think. At least, when you hear of a murder or bodily harm on the news, it's almost always a stabbing or a beating, and only rarely a shooting.

    All that being said though, I think Canada's national gun registry is a total farce... it targets law-abiding citizens who are gun collectors, hobbyists, farmers and hunters. The criminals of course are not going to register their guns! So I can see both sides of the argument quite easily. Fr Chuck is right too about Hitler and the guns. One of the reasons the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising were able to hold out for so long was that they HAD guns. Otherwise the Nazis would have overpowered them a lot sooner.

    Interesting discussion!
  • Jun 5, 2006, 06:16 AM
    J_9
    But, my question Lungie is

    Don't only criminals carry guns in your part of the world?

    People here really do not carry knives, except maybe a pocket knife used to open things. Criminals here carry guns, and we have to be prepared to defend ourselves if necessary.
  • Jun 5, 2006, 06:39 AM
    orange
    Oh and I forgot to add, if I felt that my life or the lives of my children were in danger, I would definitely carry a weapon. Some in-laws of mine who live in Israel own and carry uzis around with them. However, I'm lucky in that I live in a relatively safe area. Most of the violent crimes here occur between family members, rival gangs, and among members of the aboriginal population. The majority of other crime is vandalism and non-violent break and enters, which occur during the day while people are not at home. I do sometimes think it would be good if shopkeepers could have a gun in their store, or some kind of weapon though, because hold-ups in stores seem to be on the rise here, and more often thieves have a gun rather than a knife.
  • Jun 5, 2006, 06:39 AM
    NeedKarma
    I'm in Eastern Canada and even the criminals don't have access to guns so they commit their crimes with knives, shotguns, hypodermic needles, etc.. Crime rate is very low here and I feel a lot safer here than in any large american city. I'm originally from Montreal and that's as safe as where I am now.
  • Jun 5, 2006, 07:13 AM
    J_9
    But isn't a shotgun still a gun?

    You sure are safer than here in Memphis, I will tell you that much.

    Thank goodness I live in a small safe bedroom community.
  • Jun 5, 2006, 07:14 AM
    fredg
    Hi,
    United States here; from the great State of VA.
    I own several guns, pistols, rifles, and shotguns. Use to be an avid hunter, but don't anymore.
    I would definitely own a gun if I lived in any large city in the US... for personal home protection. Those who leave them lying around for their children to pick up and discharge shouldn't have one in the first place, but that's another story.
    Any crimes committed with guns, would be committed with something else, if there were no guns. Some are even committed with a hunters' bow and arrows! Others with knives, some with pieces of glass, used as a weapon.
    Relinquish my personal owned firearms? NO, that is a right as an American Citizen, with which I have been for over half a century.
    I have never used a firearm, aimed at another person. But, if my family is in danger, I would have serious thoughts about protecting them and myself; and would not want to be the intruder. Hope it never comes to that.
  • Jun 5, 2006, 08:11 AM
    J_9
    I agree wholeheartedly with you on every aspect Fred!

    We have SEVERAL firearms of every kind in our home along with a 12 and 4 year old. However, we are smart enough parents to keep them in a safe. We only have one firearm available if it comes to home invasion, which happens often.

    Our children have been taught from very tender ages that "if you can see the gun you are not allowed in the room." And they follow those instructions to a T.

    My husband is a gunsmith, a very gifted one at that, and is very educated in the use and misuse of firearms and he is passing this knowledge on to our children.

    If guns were outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. But as NeedKarma said, criminals do not need guns, they will go as far as hypodermic needles to commit their crimes.
  • Jun 5, 2006, 08:52 AM
    NeedKarma
    To be honest guys if I lived somewhere where I absolutely felt like I needed a gun to defend myself, my family or my property I would probably move.
  • Jun 5, 2006, 11:13 AM
    phillysteakandcheese
    I am frightened by the "armed population" of the USA. American tourists show up here from time to time, and come "armed"... I shudder to think what life would be like in a place where so many people walking the streets are armed!

    Contrast to where I live - Western Canada - where many people own guns, you won't find too many people walking the street with them. So no need to be afraid of being shot at...

    I believe in the right to have a gun, but I don't think it should be something you carry around with you all the time. American culture seems to dictate otherwise, which is what I think leads to so many problems with guns in the USA.

    And yes - Gun control (in Canada) is a joke. It does nothing but force the law-abiding citizen to turn in or register their hunting rifles while leaving criminals able to buy all kinds of weapons illegally.

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