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Well, if the people you speak of were SAVED and only the Lord knows for sure, Then I believe they are STILL saved. I believe the Lord when he says "i will never leave you or forsake you". You say... but you can leave him and I say back.. and he said NEVER... NEVER means that. He isn't going to leave me even if I wonder off like a stupid sheep. He doesn't call us sheep for nothing.. they are STUPID.
Two of them came into money, inheritances, and are knocking themselves out now to spend and live high off the hog. They have no use for church or for God. Another one has gotten a lot of tough situations in his life and blames God for them, has renounced his church membership and wants nothing to do with God. No, God hasn't left them, but they want nothing to do with God.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
You referred to the "tasted" but let's look at this in more detail:Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Heb 6:4-7
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
NKJV
What are the attributes of those spoken of here?
1) There were once enlightened. In the context, what were they enlightened to if not the gospel?
2) They tasted the heavenly gift, the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come. I am not sure how you do this without taking it in.
3) They were partakers of the Holy Spirit. The same term used to describe those who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in 2 Peter 1:4
4) They were once renewed to repentance. How can this happen to an unsaved person?
5) They fall away - from what if they were not saved?
6) If they were able to return to repentance (how is that possible if they never repented in the first place>) they would crucify Christ again (if unsaved when did the crucifixion of Christ first apply to them?
Tom,
Hmmm. Well I do not write as well as you, I'm not as smart as you and I'm not as logical as you but... I will attempt to explain it.
The writer of Hebrews is writing to the Jews. Some of these Jews had a really hard time giving up the Law. They were prone to hang on to Judaism. It is obvious they did not understand Paul's doctrine of Grace. Sure they could accept the Lord Jesus as the Messiah but Paul wanted them to understand that He had died for the sins of the world. I think you have to understand that before you can understand Hebrews.
I will go down your list and try to give you answers as I see them in the word. But I am tired now and I want to do a good job so I may do more tomorrow when I am fresh and can think clearer.
I will say this though, you most certainly can be enlightened and have an emotional experience without really being a believer. The story that comes to my mind off hand is King Nebuchandezzar. This guy throws the 3 Hebrew children in the fiery furnace and notices that there are 4 guys walking around. He even exclaims that the 4th looked like the Son of God. The only way in the WORLD he could have known that was enlightenment from the Holy Spirit. He then went on to gush about how Wonderful the Hebrew God was and on and on. I mean he had an experience!! Hyped up, pumped up... I get a kick though it doesn't take him long to forget it and go out and think about how great HE was and all HIS hands had made. He was enlightened... it just didn't really sink into him. He went back to his old ways...
You can partake of the Holy Spirit, I think Judas did. He saw the Lord Jesus do every miracle possible.. he was part of it. He was sent out to cast out devils and preach the Gospel of the Kingdom but he never embraced it, he didn't have faith. But he most DID partake.
I am going to look up Fall away and study it a bit... I know that the greek word used in this passage is the ONLY time it was used. It wasn't like the falling away paul speaks of in the last days.. but I don't have my facts straight so I'm not going to try to explain it just yet.
Judas was not saved?Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
classyT,
I think it means that we are to have the highest respect for God and know that he is perfect in all aspects including, love, mercy, and JUSTICE.
We should keep in mind always that sin is what damns us and that every sin must be forgiven in the manner mentioned in Holy Scripture.
The sins of days gone by that you asked for forgiveness for today will be forgiven, but not those of tomorrows unless you confess them with remorse and ask for forgiveness.
Also keep in mind what Jesus said about forgiveness. If we do not forgive others we will NOT be forgiven.
That is where the trembling comes in. We should not goof up and start asuming everything about our salvation is A-OK and forget to do the work of being saved.
Faith is but one of the works of being saved. Being sorry for our sins, asking for forgiveness and forgiving others are also works that are necessary.
It's all there in Holy Scripture on what we must do.
May the grace of God helps on our trek up the road to heaven.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
I beg to differ. I have found you to be both smart and capable of logically presenting your views.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Agreed.Quote:
The writer of Hebrews is writing to the Jews. Some of these Jews had a really hard time giving up the Law. They were prone to hang on to Judaism. It is obvious they did not understand Paul's doctrine of Grace. Sure they could accept the Lord Jesus as the Messiah but Paul wanted them to understand that He had died for the sins of the world. I think you have to understand that before you can understand Hebrews.
I would disagree that an emotional experience qualifies as enlightenment. Often emotion will cloud the logical portion of the mind and will in fact make enlightenment more difficult.Quote:
I will say this though, you most certainly can be enlightened and have an emotional experience without really being a believer. The story that comes to my mind off hand is King Nebuchandezzar. This guy throws the 3 Hebrew children in the fiery furnace and notices that there are 4 guys walking around. He even exclaims that the 4th looked like the Son of God. The only way in the WORLD he could have known that was enlightenment from the Holy Spirit.
Of course Nebuchadnezzar did turn to the one true God at the end, so the Holy Spirit was working on him:
Dan 4:36-37
36 At the same time my reason returned to me, and for the glory of my kingdom, my honor and splendor returned to me. My counselors and nobles resorted to me, I was restored to my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added to me. 37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and extol and honor the King of heaven, all of whose works are truth, and His ways justice. And those who walk in pride He is able to put down.
NKJV
But keep in mind also that in the OT, the Holy Spirit did not indwell believers as He did after the ascension of Christ, so when we read this passage in Hebrews, we have to read it also in the light of the NT when we refer to the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer.
As did David. But I am sure that you would agree that David was saved.Quote:
He was enlightened... it just didn't really sink into him. He went back to his old ways...
We cannot go by what we think happened when we are talking doctrinal issues. Scripture nowhere says that Judas partook of the Holy Spirit, nor could he have in the NT sense of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, because he was dead by that time.Quote:
You can partake of the Holy Spirit, I think Judas did.
Further, scripture is clear that the unsaved cannot partake of the Holy Spirit:
John 14:16-17
16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever-- 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
NKJV
You will not find anything in scripture about a non-believer receiving the Holy Spirit, being a partaker of the Holy Spirit, or any similar reference.
Where does scripture say that he partook of the Holy Spirit?Quote:
He saw the Lord Jesus do every miracle possible.. he was part of it. He was sent out to cast out devils and preach the Gospel of the Kingdom but he never embraced it, he didn't have faith. But he most DID partake.
Okay, fair enough. I look forward to hearing what you find out.Quote:
I am going to look up Fall away and study it a bit... I know that the greek word used in this passage is the ONLY time it was used. It wasn't like the falling away paul speaks of in the last days.. but I don't have my facts straight so I'm not going to try to explain it just yet.
We have discussed the levels of knowledge God grants to HIS children. Perhaps that fact has to be understood for everyone to recognize how we do work in a sense, at being all God created us to be.
Scripture teaches that we are graced according to the measure of gift of Christ. (Eph 4:7)
We are being built to be that one body in Christ.. We endeavour many things to stay in unity with the one spirit our Saviour Christ.. As we have been called to be the body of fresh in one hope joined to the one spirit Christ Jesus.
Though One Lord, One Faith, and One Baptism( Eph 4:5)
Paul spoke of this being the imprisoned walk in one spirit that we walk worthy and in obedence to the Will of God. That we might be granted according to HIS glory the blessing of spirit in the inner most flesh.(Eph 3:16) It is known to be the fulfillment of God within us, grounded in faith and love where Christ dwells within us.
Col 2:6-7 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
Tom, I feel the possible falling away is : Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9-12 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
LOL... ok don't make me come through this screen and smack you... that IS MY LINE. I know, I know, I should NOT have said I THINK. The problem that we are having is the what Paul meant by Partake. I do not study Greek but I heard someone say that if you study the word Paul used for partake.. it means someone who came along side to help NOT someone who had the Holy Spirit indwelling them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I disagree with King Nebbynot being enlightened, I don't know how he could have possibly proclaimed that the 4th man in the furnace LOOKED like the son of God.
Daniel 3:24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound in the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, oh King.25. He answered them and said, Lo I see FOUR men loose, walking in the midst of the fire and they have not hurt... AND THE FORM OF THE FOURTH IS LIKE THE SON OF GOD.
How in the world could he have KNOWN something like that? It was enlightenment from the Holy Spirit. And Yes he eventually did believe God after the Lord showed him who was really in charge.. but he was enlightened... re read the praise he had for the God of the Hebrews. You would have thought he was a believer, but he wasn't... not yet anyway.
Now if the word "partake" that Paul uses in Hebrews means someone who comes along side to help... that is why I believe Judas did indeed partake. He didn't have faith, he saw the work of the Holy Spirit on a daily basis and was sent out to do the same thing that Jesus was doing. So indeed he did PARTAKE.
Notice that Paul uses "surfacey" words to describe these jews... They TASTED ( I taste things to see if I'm going to like it) that is what I believe Paul is saying they did. They were ENLIGHTENED.. doesn't say they were believers... just that the Holy Spirit had shown them some things... ( by the way happens ALL the time) Partakers... not that the Holy Spirit had been indwelling them, not that they were actually IN Christ, not that they were SEALED with the Holy Spirit of promise.. ( notice the difference when he is talking about the man in 1 Corinthians 5... this guy was a believer and Paul says give him over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so that his SPIRIT may be SAVED.
The difference in the man in corinthians and the Jews Paul writes to in Hebrews is... the man was living in sin!! So Paul says.. let Satan have at him for the destruction of his flesh so that his spirit will be saved. But in HEBREWS these Jews were living in Unbelief... Oh they were enlightened.. yes they partook and tasted but they went back to their sacrifices. Put themselves under the Law. Could accept the Gospel of the KINGDOM that Jesus preached. See hebrews 6:1 Paul is telling them MOVE ON there is MORE but they couldn't accept the Gospel of Grace. Now what is the only thing the Lord can't forgive..?. Unbelief. For without faith it is impossible to please him. They were in unbelief. Why else would people go back to sacrificing and the Law unless they didn't believe in the finished work of Jesus?
AND.. while I'm on my tangent... lol I THINK ( yes they are MY thoughts) when Jesus said to blaspheme the Holy Spirit was an unforgivable sin that people today can't even do it. I believe he was talking to the Jews that stood and watched the dead rise, the sick healthy, the lame walk, the blind see... and they walked away in unbelief. Just like Judas did... ( I'm not even sure I should have thrown that in... and they are just MY thoughts on that particular subject which really has nothing to do with everything else I have said... ) oh well.
I'm still looking up the "falling away"... don't worry.. I will be back... ;)
Well NO! How could he be?? He betrayed the Lord and instead of asking for forgiveness he hangs himself. He didn't believe, he had NO faith. Notice the difference in Peter's response after he betrayed the Lord. Plus Jesus point blank says that one of the twelve was a devil. Judas is also described as the son of perdition and the only other person who is called that is the antichrist. The Lord Jesus also said it would have been better for Judas if he hadn't been born. No... I do not believe that Judas was saved... no. nada, ain't no way, no how. Incidentally, when Judas killed himself the Bible says he went to his OWN place. I don't know what that means exactly but when the thief on the cross died the Lord said he would be with him in paradise... big difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
What happens if I don't have TIME to repent. What if I get killed instantly in a car accident and I had just told a little white lie before I got into the car... Or if I don't KNOW that what I had done was a sin? I really believe Jesus died for everyone of my sins, that I need to keep short accounts with God because when I don't it effects my relationship with him NOT my salvation.
The Lord calls us sheep because we are dumb just like they are.. they are prone to wander off, get caught in something, get hurt... they aren't real bright and neither are we. I thank Jesus that he doesn't expect me to try and keep my salvation. Salvation is of the Lord and if I have any WORK in it other than belief in what the Lord did... I will screw it UP! Don't you all feel that way too? Do you really think you can keep yourself saved? Am I that much of a screw up that I am the only one that KNOWS my flesh stinks to high heaven and as long as I have it... it will be a BATTLE?
Also note that Judas was a thief while he was one of the disciples. I see no evidence that Judas was saved at any time.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Classy,Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
I agree.
This is what I meant when I said that we cannot "lose" our salvation though we can deliberately turn away. God is not looking for a reason to condem us. If so Jesus would not have willing gone to the cross for our sins. God is not willing that any should perish, but rather wants us all to receive Jesus as Saviour. We are not going to lose our salvation every time that we commit a sin. 1 John 1:9 says that the Jesus paid the price for all unrighteousness.
Tom
The word used in this passage is metochos, which means a "sharer", "partaker" or "partner".Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Notice in 2 Pet 1:4 when we are referred to as "partakers", it says that we have escaped corruption that is in the world through lust. In Hebrews 6, as I mentioned befiore, it speaks of those to which it refers having been "renewed to repetance". How can that refer to an unsaved person? How can an unsaved person be a partaker of the Holy Spirit who is renewed to repetance?
We don't have enough on him to really make this a point of contention, in my opinion. I do see a difference between the Holy Spirit providing guidance to an unsaved person. For example, look at the usage of the word in Ephesians 1:18. That would seem to be referring to the saved, and not applicable to the unsaved.Quote:
I disagree with King Nebbynot being enlightened, I don't know how he could have possibly proclaimed that the 4th man in the furnace LOOKED like the son of God.
So we could debate about whether Nebby was saved, but though he was given what may have been divinely inspired understanding on that one point, that would not mean that he was enlightened as the term is used in Eph 1:18.
We need to take these altogether along with the fact they are described as falling away and having been renewed to repentance. When this is taken into consideration of them being partakers of the Holy Spirit (understood also in light of 2 Pet 1:4), I honestly don't know how much more clearly he could have described a person who was saved, but abandoned his or her salvation.Quote:
Notice that Paul uses "surfacey" words to describe these jews... They TASTED ( I taste things to see if I'm going to like it) that is what I believe Paul is saying they did. They were ENLIGHTENED.. doesn't say they were believers... just that the Holy Spirit had shown them some things... ( by the way happens ALL the time) Partakers... not that the Holy Spirit had been indwelling them, not that they were actually IN Christ, not that they were SEALED with the Holy Spirit of promise.. ( notice the difference when he is talking about the man in 1 Corinthians 5... this guy was a believer and Paul says give him over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so that his SPIRIT may be SAVED.
I won't bring up a certain weekly sacrificing ritual of a certain major denomination ;)Quote:
Why else would people go back to sacrificing and the Law unless they didn't believe in the finished work of Jesus?
Tom,
I don't know if you remember that I told you I grew up in an assembly that the "world" named plymouth Brethren. I say world because they never took a name and they believed it was not scriptural. John Darby was one of the so called founders of these assemblies that still exsist all over the world today> I think John Darby was a Brilliant guy although many disagree with his teachings on the rapture... ANYWAY... this is what he had to say concerning turning your back on the Lord.
John Darby, of the Plymouth brethren, who was preaching on the verse 'walk in the light as God is in the light' when someone yell out 'And what if we turn our back on God's light?' Darby responded, 'then God's light will shine on your back.' What was He saying? That God is faithful and doesn't give up on those that are His.
BTW, have you heard of John Darby and are you familiar with his teaching?
Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
To discern his actions as being wrong is one thing, but to judge His soul ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Matthew 27:3-4 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? See thou to that.
Matthew 27:10 And gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord appointed me.
The potter's field for that broken vessel..
Have mercy upon me, O LORD, for I am in trouble: mine eye is consumed with grief, yea, my soul and my belly. For my life is spent with grief, and my years with sighing: my strength faileth because of mine iniquity, and my bones are consumed. I was a reproach among all mine enemies, but especially among my neighbours, and a fear to mine acquaintance: they that did see me without fled from me. I am forgotten as a dead man out of mind: I am like a broken vessel.
Snd,
I do not believe that Judas had any faith. For without faith it is impossible to please God.. I know you know the verse. I DO NOT base my belief on anything but the word of God. The Lord Jesus said he was a devil, called him the son of perdition, said it would have been better if he hadn't been born. The scriptures also record Judas went to his own place. These are FACTS in the Bible... dont believe me? Ok... check it out...
John 6:64, 68a, 69a, 70, and 71 records the words of Jesus in regards to Judas:
“But there are some of you who do NOT believe". For Jesus KNEW from the beginning who they were who did NOT believe, and who it was that would BETRAY Him... Simon Peter answered Him... 'and we (apostles) have believed.' Jesus answered them, 'Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?' Now He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him
If that isn't enough info for you check this verse out...
“While I was with them, I was keeping them in Thy name which Thou has given Me; and I guarded them, and no one of them perished but (or except) the son of perdition, that the Scriptures might be fulfilled John 17:12
The scripture also says the Judas went to his own place... there is No where else in scripture where that phrase is used.
So you see, I do not JUDGE him... I am simply giving the FACTS of the Bible. The Lord Jesus said he was lost.. not me. The Lord Jesus said he was a devil.. not me. The Lord Jesus called him the son of perdition... not me.
With what has been recorded... I am scratching my head wondering how you could NOT believe that Judas was a unbeliever.
classyT,
I believe that partake means to participate in or with such as to partake of supper (eat it) or to partake of baseball (play in the sport) and you that with others.
The dictionary says... it is a intransitive verb 1 : to take part in or experience something along with others <partake in the revelry> <partake of the good life> 2 : to have a portion (as of food or drink) 3 : to possess or share a certain nature or attribute <the experience partakes of a mystical quality>
Peace and kindness,
Fred
I am aware of the Plymouth Brethren and aware of the general theological positions taken by Darby, though I cannot claim to be intimately familiar with all of his teachings.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
I did not judge his soul. I was examining the evidence given in scripture.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
He regretted what he did but that is not the same as receiving Jesus as Saviour. Where did he acknowledge Him as Lord? As Saviour? The same could be said of Pilate who knew that Jesus was innocent and washed his hands of the crime. But was he saved?Quote:
Matthew 27:3-4 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? See thou to that.
Matthew 27:10 And gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord appointed me.
The potter's field for that broken vessel..
Have mercy upon me, O LORD, for I am in trouble: mine eye is consumed with grief, yea, my soul and my belly. For my life is spent with grief, and my years with sighing: my strength faileth because of mine iniquity, and my bones are consumed. I was a reproach among all mine enemies, but especially among my neighbours, and a fear to mine acquaintance: they that did see me without fled from me. I am forgotten as a dead man out of mind: I am like a broken vessel.
I don't disagree with you on that Fred. I think it does mean exactly that but I believe it still doesn't mean these jews had the Holy Spirit indwelling in them. I think you can participate, to take part in, to experience and ALL of that these Jewish people were doing. I think it is the same today, people can partake of the Holy Spirit in a worship service, they can be moved by his presence. Some are even HEALED... doesn't make them sealed with the Holy Spirit doesn't make them believers.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Tom,
About falling away... I have been trying to find the best explanation and I came across a guy named Les Feldik. He has a TV program and I have met him several times at local bible studies. I have never met anyone who understood Grace better than Les and he NEVER mixed law with Grace. He has a ranch or a farm or something and he doesn't have a income from his teachings. I have sent him letters picking his brain and he has called me on the phone to explain. Actually I have talked to him twice on the phone. He teaches the Bible like no one I have ever met and uses the KJV and makes it very easy to read. I have no idea why I am giving you his background except to say... he is Smart and knowledgeable in the Word and very approachable. Anyway, I looked up his take on that verse and especially the "falling away" that I promised to discuss. I agree with him on this issue so I hope you take the time to read it.
Hebrews 4:6a ( Les Feldik is teaching this... )
"If (scary word isn't it?) they (these people who had this much understanding) shall fall away…"
We're going to stop right there. This word that is translated "fall away" and I put it on the board ahead of time, in the Greek is 'parapipto.' Now I'm not a Greek scholar and you don't have to be, but here's one instance where it pays to see the difference. This word is the only time it's used in the whole New Testament. Where it's translated in verse 6 that "if they shall fall away," it is a "parapipto," whereas the other word that we're most familiar with like in II Thessalonians chapter 2 that "unless there is a falling away first" – that term is "apostasia" and it, too, is translated "falling away." But it does not have the connotation that this one does.
And I'm going to show you why, because since it's the only time it's used in the Greek in our whole New Testament, even the Greek scholars have a hard time really nailing it down. But, I went through enough and found that one great linguist of days gone by said, "The only way you can understand this term – parapipto – is to realize what it means in the Hebrew." And so the Hebrew word is "mahal." M-A-H-A-L. We're going to look and see what that word "mahal" really is talking about.
Let's come all the way back to Numbers chapter 5, and let's just drop down to verse 12. Remember what we're showing - that this Hebrew word "mahal" is the best parallel with the Greek word "parapipto" which is only used in Hebrews chapter 6.
And I'm taking the time to show the difference because I want you to see that this falling away in Hebrews chapter 6 is far worse than the normal term to fall away or to be apostasia. Let's start with verse 11.
Numbers 5:11-12
"And the LORD spake unto Moses saying, 12. Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man's wife go aside, and commit a (what's the word?) trespass (that's the Hebrew word "And the LORD spake unto Moses saying, 12. Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man's wife go aside, and commit a (what's the word?) trespass (that's the Hebrew word ") against him," (her husband)
And what does she do? She commits adultery with another man. Now of course, we know that adultery was common in Israel just like it is today, but this is a unique situation from the word ") against him," It is when this woman literally "mahal." on her husband. She doesn't just get caught in a moment of temptation and weakness but she, of her own volition, with a scornful turning her back to her husband goes and commits adultery, now that's the word mahal translated 'trespass.' All right, the next one is in Ezekiel chapter 14, and we'll start with verse 14. This is the same Hebrew word.
Ezekiel 14:12-13
"turns her back with scorn"
Is that the term that was used with backsliding that we looked at in the last program? No. Backsliding would bring in God's mercy and grace but this "The word of the LORD came again to me, saying, 13. Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing (mahal) grievously, then will I stretch out my hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it and will cut off man and beast from it:" is an apostasy or a "scornfully turning the back" that is so scornful in it's act that God has nothing left but judgment. He can't deal with it in mercy and grace. Now see, that's what makes the difference then.
Aright, flip all the way back to Hebrews chapter 6 and this is what makes the difference, I think, in these verses in Hebrews that so many people have got all confused and are shook up about. This is not the common ordinary believer who has suddenly fallen into sin and he's not lost. He hasn't scornfully rejected the things of God, but rather he's just simply been human and he's been caught in a moment of weakness and he falls, like we saw in our last program. The man in Corinth that was restored, and forgiven. Can you see that?
But these people made a scornful turning of the back on these things that God had revealed to them. Now then, since this is a much different situation of an apostatizing, look what the result will be.
Hebrews 6:6
"parapipto"
What are we dealing with? We're dealing with people who have claimed to be believers. Now, I'm going to keep it in the Hebrew element first. And then we'll jump up to where we are today. Even these Hebrews to whom Paul is now writing, have made a semblance of believing. They have gone along with all these things, but then when they really were pressed to make a decision to move on forward, what did they scornfully do? They went back under the Law and there was no more of God dealing with them.
Now I know I have taught, and I will continue to teach, that God never gives up on a lost person. But, it would seem to indicate that someone who has made a profession of faith without really becoming a believer and then at one point in time, they scornfully, like the ones we've looked at in King Saul, what did he do? He just scornfully went his own way. What was his end? Suicide.
Judas. Three years he trafficked along with Jesus and the eleven, playing the perfect hypocrite. But in the final analysis, when it was time to really show his colors, what did he do? He scorned the Lord and went and sold Him for thirty pieces of silver. And ends up committing suicide.
Ok, that ends what Les Feldik had to say. What do you think?
I hope you read all that because he explain I better than I could.
But when push comes to shove I really do not believe that these jews were NOT believers at all... they were tasting, the were partaking.. Paul could have easily used the terms like believers that were filled with the Holy Spirit.. but he didn't. He used surface words. Because that is as far as the Jews got... he was constantly encouraging them to move on in their walk. Ok, I think I have given you all I can on the subject. I doubt you will change your mind but perhaps you can consider it for a least a second or two. ;)
Tj3,
The Lord God knows for sure.
No one else knows for sure about Judas or Pilate, but there has been a lot of speculation and some out right statements that they were hell bound.
Also which version in the bible about the death of Judas do you think is the correct one?
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Both are correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Tj3,
Please explain how they both can be correct.
Thanks,
'Fred
There are a couple of plausible explanations. First, he hung himself. Not a public hanging so it is likely the body was hanging a while and in a warmer climate like that, it takes very little time before decomposition starts. The body would eventually swell up with the decomposition process and the rope would fail and the body would split open.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
The Greek term used in scripture for "falling headlong" can mean that, or can also mean to become swollen, so both are valid understandings.
That is a long post. I did not have a chance to get to this earlier and I am too tired to try to tackle this right now, but I will try to get to it tomorrow night.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Tj3,
Thanks Tom.
I've heard that before but I thought you might have more on that.
I believe the bible is correct so the full explanation on the death of Judas remains a mystery.
Fred
From the beginning of the Word, with all that is written, we profit by what was and continues to establish godilness. The righteousness of who Christ Jesus ensampled.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Christ Jesus justifies, and we are not to condemn our enemies. We are to love our enemies. (Luke 6:36 Be ye merciful, as your Father also is mericful) We therefore can be thankful and in hope of always being guarded, within Christ. And we should not cease to pray for the strength and guarded guidance to remain in HIS righteousness. Because it is God's chosen choice, and it is said that all may come, and not to call any unclean...
Judas did repent... why would he turn to repent ? Why would he elect to end his own life of sin? How many others denied Christ? Why is there hope for any? Is the wage of sin death?Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
There were many who denied Christ within the crowd that were asked who they would choose. Christ's heart of mercy was spoken (Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.)
It is written (Luke 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again. )
ClassyT, we both learn from what is written, and we have much more profit in love.
Tom, we can go by what is written, in a discerning heart for what is right and wrong. And pray for the spirit of Christ to guide.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.
Snd,
Yes Judas DID repent.. but who to? Not the Lord. I think there is enough evidence in scripture to say that Judas had NO faith. He knew he had betrayed innocent blood and he felt sorry but there is no biblical evidence that Judas believed that Jesus was who he said he was. Peter denied the Lord but he was the one that proclaimed that Jesus WAS the Christ the son of the living God. Peter had faith and besides all of that Listen to what JESUS said about Judas... ( he didn't say it about Peter or anyone else.) Like I pointed out earlier.. the only other person called the son of perdition is the antichrist. Now that HAS to make you stop and think...
Therefore, I don't believe Judas went to heaven and I don't know how many scripture you need but when the Lord said he was a devil, it would be better if he hadn't been born.. he even goes so far as to say the only one of the 12 that was lost is HIM... I'm thinking... hmmm? What is Jesus trying to SAY here? OH.. I see what he saying TRYING TO SAY... Judas is a devil and it would be better if he hadn't been born and he was lost.. Now I'm NO einstein but it really doesn't sound like Judas is sitting in heavenly places with the Father and the Son right now... call me crazy. Call me judgmental... but don't call me someone who makes up my own truth. I didn't write it all I did was read it. :)
I know it was long and I apologize, I never do that but I didn't know how else to explain so I used Les Feldiks word... sorry. I have a sneaking suspension you aren't going to concede but that's OK. You've challenged me to go deeper into the word and to understand verses that I couldn't explain before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
ClassyT, The mercy in love of Our Father, and the forgiveness sent in Christ and given in HIS glory is where we can rest.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
You have said yourself that you sin. Is there a degree in sin? Would you say HIS mercy for you and your sins are the exception from others? To grant yourself HIS justificationt by your fatih in HIM, and yet turn from a brother to say his sins are greater, is that right? I understand all that was written of Judas, and the dark side of what held him. But sin is the dark side, and to repent is important.
I recognize your heart by discernment in love for Christ. But I don't feel we are suppose to discern Judas other then his actions were wrong.
The scripture said he saw his comdemned, and repented himself...
And in love for Christ and HIS glory for all mankind,we should all rest in HIS justification and HIS intercession.
Romans 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Matthew 27:5 referance:
and hange himself is the interpretation of the single word "apogcho" that means (throttle, strangle, in order to put out of the way or kill) From where I stand in awareness to this single word apogcho, I don't put the word (himself) in this as evident.
It would appear he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed (anachoreo = withdrew as to of those who through fear seek some other place)
and went (aperchomai = of departing evils and sufferings)
and hanged himself (apogcho = was hanged or strangled) instead of hanged himself.
We do not know for sure the heart of Judas, nor do we want to pass judgement upon him.
So we do disagree, I pray we both can find our guidance and help unto the Spirit
Off thread and I don't mean to go further in doing so.. Sorry
Tess - I like your treatment of this subject. Actually, since you did paraphrase Les Feldik's perspective, I guess I like his treatment of it :) At any rate, for what it's worth, I'd like to offer my two cents on what you have already covered.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
It seems to me, Tess, that in our modern Christian culture whenever we try to delineate belief from unbelief in an individual we will quickly judge that someone who prays the sinner's prayer or asks Jesus into his heart is a Christian... unequivocally. Our thinking is that someone who rejects our message is definitely not a Christian so anyone who does must be a Christian. But this understanding of belief is a superficial one in my opinion because it doesn't address something the bible refers to as inwardness. The bible says that man looks at the outward appearance but God searches the heart of a man. Well, we cannot search the heart of a man but if God looks beyond the appearance of people and considers their heart, why should we revert back to examining the outward appearance of people (by this I mean man's outward verbal commitment to the truth)? Jesus said that we will know whether a tree is good or not by its fruit (and in that context he was speaking of false prophets but I think it is a useful paradigm for understanding people too). What I am saying is that just because Judas said he was a disciple of Jesus outwardly didn't mean that he was a committed disciple of Jesus inwardly. What I have observed on this Christian forum—on a few occasions now—is people's surprise at the notion that Judas was not a believer. Some people will say "Judas sat at the feet of Jesus and walked in his shadow; how could he not be a believer?" But what's striking is that his life seemed to consistently stand in contrast to what we would think was real faith.
The argument I use for why I think this is true is the commentary of Jesus as well as John on Judas. Consider the following scenario from the Upper Room:
“Now before the Feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that his hour had come to depart out of this world to the Father, having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end. During supper, when the devil had already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him, Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come from God and was going back to God, rose from supper. He laid aside his outer garments, and taking a towel, tied it around his waist. Then he poured water into a basin and began to wash the disciples' feet and to wipe them with the towel that was wrapped around him. He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, “Lord, do you wash my feet?” Jesus answered him, “What I am doing you do not understand now, but afterward you will understand.” Peter said to him, “You shall never wash my feet.” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no share with me.” Simon Peter said to him, “Lord, not my feet only but also my hands and my head!” Jesus said to him, “The one who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but is completely clean. And you are clean, but not every one of you.” For he knew who was to betray him; that was why he said, “Not all of you are clean.”
What is going on here? I think some would see this section this way. Jesus was describing Judas as being positionally unclean. He was walking in disobedience to God as this time but he was a believer. The problem I see with this interpretation is that it doesn't get at the meaning of the term clean, as Jesus is using it. I believe it is a reference to the term “washed” that Paul uses in 1 Corinthians 6: “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.” Paul is pointing out that people who habitually practice sin are not washed by the Spirit of God. Believers will still struggle with sin but struggling with it is not the issue. The issue is those who as a manner of practice, are given over to practicing sin of all kinds. In the case of Judas, he was murderous and a thief. Jesus said this of Judas: 'He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.' Judas knew that by going to the Sanhedrin, he was guaranteeing a death sentence for Jesus. His heart was completely against Jesus. Secondly, Judas was a thief. He was entrusted with the money the disciples collected for their welfare. This is John's take on Judas (John Ch 12):
“But Judas Iscariot, one of his disciples (he who was about to betray him), said, “Why was this ointment not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?” He said this, not because he cared about the poor, but because he was a thief, and having charge of the moneybag he used to help himself to what was put into it. Jesus said, “Leave her alone, so that she may keep it for the day of my burial. For the poor you always have with you, but you do not always have me.”
Lastly, in Matthew's account, this is how Jesus describes Judas: “He who has dipped his hand in the dish with me will betray me. The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.” This I ask, if Judas Iscariot were simply a wayward believer, why would Jesus say that it would have been better if he had never been born. My take is that because Judas was enlightened to the truth and observed miracles in ways that many men had never before, he beyond so many others, knew that Jesus was the Christ. He could not deny that. But ultimately, his response to Jesus was to have him killed for money. He cheated Jesus and the disciples out of money while he was in charge of the money bag. At no time do the biblical authors ever evaluate Judas as one of the twelve in heart, but only in fact. Jesus said that he had chosen all of the disciples but Judas. He didn't mean that he did not make him part of his cohort; he meant that he was the only one whom he did not choose for eternal life:
“When he had washed their feet and put on his outer garments and resumed his place, he said to them, “Do you understand what I have done to you? You call me Teacher and Lord, and you are right, for so I am. If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that you also should do just as I have done to you. Truly, truly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them. I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But the Scripture will be fulfilled, 'He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.' I am telling you this now, before it takes place, that when it does take place you may believe that I am he. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever receives the one I send receives me, and whoever receives me receives the one who sent me.”
So, for me it is not hard to see Judas as an unbeliever. He was probably one who received a far greater punishment from God than most unbelievers ever will…and I don't have any idea what that looks like or means but the idea of it alone is sobering. After all, Jesus said it would have been better for him if he had never been born.
But wasn't Judas part of God's plan for salvation? How could God then damn him?
Which takes us back to the original predestination question that was posed--"Was Judas' betrayal of Jesus a necessary, foreordained part of God's plan, or an unplanned act of free will on the part of Judas?"
Jakester,
Wow. YES exactly. It isn't a matter of me JUDGING him... the Lord is the one that revealed him to us. It doesn't take much to put two and two together. This man was NOT real and I don't know how many ways the Lord could say it.
WG,
Judas had free will and every opportunity to believe in the Lord Jesus. In fact he had MORE than most people because he sat at the Lord's feet and listened to him teach and watched every miracle. He is without excuse.
Well, I believe in predestination and free will and that God is sovereign so to answer your questions yes and yes. And no I don't understand it either.
If Judas was a vital link in God's plan for salvation, would God damn him?Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
WG,
Did Judas have free will? What is the difference if we are talking about Judas or any one else that rejected Christ. The man had NO FAITH, it was HIS choice. I'm not going to defend God, I don't have to. I believe Paul wrote HE will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. WG, God is sovereign and if it is ONE THING that man hates about God it is his sovereignty. I don't understand it, I believe it, I accept it and most importantly I TRUST HIM. I don't have to figure it all out with my little mind. Aren't you the one telling me not to put God in a box. I suppose one day I will understand everything but for now I will let God be God.
Wondergirl - I believe the answer is yes, even though he was a "vital" link in God's plan for salvation. I suppose we bristle at that because we, especially as Americans, think we are really hot stuff. But when you read Romans 9, many commentators understand this section to be about God's sovereign choice for election and I do as well:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, [1] my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, [2] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,
“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”
27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel [3] be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, 28 for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” 29 And as Isaiah predicted,
“If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,
we would have been like Sodom
and become like Gomorrah.”
Paul asks the question, is God being unjust by sovereignly choosing who he will save? No, because he can have mercy upon whoever he wants to. Where we get tripped up in this is when we fail to bring into the equation our own moral unworthiness as we consider this. We expect that God should be doling out eternal life to us because we are special; or at least we would like to believe that. But isn't the issue that we have with God our evil and unrighteousness? He doesn't have to be merciful to us but he does because he chooses to, not because he is obligated to. Moreover, Paul even argues that with Pharaoah, God raised him up (for the very purpose) of freeing Israel from captivity. Basically, as I understand it, Pharaoahs hardness of heart against God and Israel was part of God's plan because God ordained it so. And God was not at fault but Pharaoah was and is such judged by God.
My two cents.
Good question--did Judas have free will? Or did God cause Judas to choose evil in order to make God's plan of salvation work out? Has God tweaked your free will to make you choose Him? Does predestination put God in a box?Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
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