Classyt,
The bible says that we must be baptized to be saved.
Mark 16:16. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
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Classyt,
The bible says that we must be baptized to be saved.
Mark 16:16. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Ahhh Fred... I like you and I hate to argue with you especially when you always say peace and Kindness.. lol. Tell you what. I disagree with you and I will just ask this... WHO is JESUS talking to? When you read the word you have to know who is speaking and
Who the writer is speaking TO. The Word is for us all but it isn't directly written to us. Jesus is talking to the Jews... Peter in Acts is talking to the Jews.. BOTH were before the Church was even started. THe church was still a mystery. IF you wanted know about salvation... go to Paul's epistles...
Peace, grace, kindess, love, and above ALL... learning to rightly divide the word of truth,
Tess
Jesus is Lord,
I hope you haven't changed your opinion.
Only to say no.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
That site needs a proofreader or two who knows grammar and spelling. It's too bad something like that spoils any information for someone who is searching.Quote:
Originally Posted by jesus-is-lord
Hello classyT,Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
God bless you. He is my life, I am consumed by his presence. I will run this race by the power of his grace until the day they slay me. Php 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Amen.
classyT,
Please note that the book of Mark was written AFTER the church was started.
The book of Acts is all about The Church after Christ was crucified.
Note how many times The Church was mentioned in the New Testament.
There should be no doubt that Baptism is a necessity for salvation.
According to The Church that includes someone who intended to be baptized by died before it could be done.
So we disagree. That is not unusual.
There are over 30,000 different denominations which disagree with each other on some things.
Peace, kindness, and love,
Fred
Acura,
It is wrong to add anything to the Work on the cross... I believe Jesus said it best... IT IS FINISHED.
Of course one should be baptized after salvation but as far as a requirement... once again that places responsibility on man. I have never known anyone that could baptize themselves.
I don't understand your statement... "according to the Church". According to WHAT CHURCH?
My friend you can't pull verses out of context and no scripture is of private interrupertation. Paul lays salvation out in the book of Romans.. and baptism is not a requirement.
But we can agree to disagree. I have never changed anyone's mind on this subject and I have an idea that I won't be changing yours.
Tess
Thanks for this post, Jesus-Is-Lord. It directly answers my question. Note that the first link goes to what is apparently your own webpage, and the second to the actual PEW survey, which is very interesting. I mention this because both links have the same wording but point to two different locations.Quote:
Originally Posted by jesus-is-lord
WOOPS! I didn't notice that, sorry for the confusion guys.Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
classyT
I'm sorry but...
I DID NOT add anything to scripture which is CLEAR that baptize is needed for salvation.
The Church is the one Jesus founded.
It exised for many centuries before the reformation when other chirches cam into being.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Acura,
Are you basing your claim about Baptism being a necessity for Salvation solely on Mark 16:16?
I don't see how anyone can take that verse to mean that without Baptism, you will not be saved.
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved (ok so this may be true but it does not say ONLY those who believe and are baptzed); whoever does not believe will be condemned (ok, again this may be true but it doesn't say anything about whoever does not get baptized).
Acura,
I did not accuse you of adding anything to the scriptures. The Bible is my only and final authority. That is my only point. I do not wish to argue over baptisim. I won't change your mind and you won't change mine. :)
Acura,
One last thought.. there is much we do agree on! I like to concentrate on that. I think you are a smart guy and you do know the word. That is a BIG deal in Christendom today. ( I think) :)
Well here's a question!
Was the criminal that was crusified with Jesus baptized? I don't think so ! But our Lord Himself says to him that he will be together with Him in Paradise!Was he baptized? No . Was he saved? Yes ! Isn't that antiphatic?Let us ask ourselves from what are we saved if we believe and are baptized?? I think that we are all missing things here , so let's be quiet about this unless if someone here KNOWS !
Adam7gur,
I appreciate your comment and I agree whole heartly with you. But I have debated this with the best of them and I already KNOW the response. First they say... well Jesus hadn't died yet so techinically it didn't count. (ok, they have a point) THEN they say, and he was GOD so he could do what he wanted... NO! He will always stay true to his WORD... that is a LAME point.
It is CLEAR as CRYSTAL to me.. that salvation HAS NOTHING to do with Baptism... I think one SHOULD be baptized in obedience to the Lord. I think it should be after salvation and when one understands what it means. I believe that is what scripture teaches.. but I have gone round and round on this subject and I find.. it AIN"T worth it. I'm not going to argue something that is as plain as the nose on my face... if they want to add baptism to salvation.. let them. They are WRONG but I am sure I am wrong at times... funny I just can't figure out where. LOL that was a JOKE for all those that have NO SENSE OF HUMOR... :)
Even Christ who was not blood only but by water..Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
1 John 5: 6 This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
We are to walk with Christ right? Follow His lead?
It is written that the trinity of three witness baptism.
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one..
Would you deny the Holy Ghost?
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
The individual becomes a servant of righteousness when baptized. This means the individual begins the web of a garment in faith. This is a judgement in the final book of life. The water destroys evil that causes sin.
1 Peter 3:20-21 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Essential to Salvation as a Servant
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Again do you walk in Christ?
Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
There is a certainity in knowing double minded thought within the heart and mind of an individual is known by God and can not be masked. Choice to follow has to be clearly done and one's faith in Christ leads the way to walk in Him. So whether you choose to be obedent to the Father, to do what is written on all levels of righteousness, and without doubt, will be known by Christ on judgement day.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJizzle
Note what is written and ask yourself, Does a child tell his father or brothers and sisters what will be ?
Truth is in listen to God, hearing His voice. There is none other to follow, or hear. May God's Will be done on earth as it is in heaven.. (John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.)
Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
Matthew 18:1-3 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Christ is the Light.. The light of the lamp which is the law.. Obedience to what Our Father has written and walk in the light...
Ok... look sndbay, I could go through every one... I know the scripture you all pull out and I have been through it a MILLION times. I'm not going down this path.. I believe you are wrong..
Quicky... Peter is talking to the JEWS... the church isn't even something he knows anything about.. not talking to the CHURCH.. the JEWS.. yes they needed to get baptized... the plan of salvation wasn't really revealed until Paul.
In Galatians... Paul is speaking of a SPIRITUAL baptism.. UGH!
You know Paul even says in one of his epistles that he can't remember who he baptized.. he knew he baptized a family and a few others but you know.. he couldn't recall how many!. if that was a requirement for salvation.. he wouldn't have mentioned it in that way. For example.. he wouldn't have said there was a few in this household that believed and a few here and there and as far as any one else.. you know I just don't recall...
OK.. Mark... Jesus is speaking.. he was talking to WHO? Oh yes the JEWS! They needed to be baptized in his name.. they were jews following the law that he came and fulfilled. Yes, when the JEWS got baptized back then.. it was a BIG DEAL! They were denouncing everything that had every been taught to them. Same as when Peter spoke to the 3000.
I have no clue what you are talking about in 1 John... that isn't about water baptism.. of that I can assure you!
I noticed you didn't pull out any verses about baptism in the book of Romans which explains salvation... faith plus nothing.
To require ME to do ANYTHING other than accept is an insult to my LORD. He DIED, HE ROSE again... He said "it is finished" I'm asked to receive this good news by faith. Then because I have received it.. get baptized because it is an outward showing of the inward change... nothing more.. nothing less. But it should be done... not because it is part of the plan of salvation but because the Lord ask us to.
Darn, I didn't mean to go on and on... we will agree to disagree.. once again.
Who is the JUDGE ? we know the answer to that..Quote:
Originally Posted by adam7gur
Who knows what is in the heart, and mind of each? we know the answer to that..
1 Peter 3:20-21 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Who now can say Baptism does not save us? The JUDGE and HIM alone.
Sndbay,
What do you meant who is the Judge? The LORD will never ever do anything against what he has already said to be true. If baptism is a requirement for salvation, then it is a requirement. He doesn't just excuse and wink at one and then place different standards on another. Nope.. that my friend will never happen. You shouldda gone with the "well, the Lord hadn't died yet, therefore he hadn't rose yet, therefore baptism isn't needed"... lol I would have gone with THAT argument if I were you. :)
On that final day I do not put Paul as the JUDGE. AND perhaps you should read 1 John because it does example the [three in one] as witnesses, who will know who was baptized.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Do you understand what denial of the Holy Spirit would mean?
Psalms 17:4-5 Concerning the works of men, by the word of Thy lips, I have kept me from the paths of the destroyer. Hold up my goings in Thy paths, that my footsteps slip not.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Faith is to follow and believe both..Faith is by works!
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Revelation 22:11-12 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and My reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Make your judgement as you have.. That's the point of fact.. I do not judge because it is your choice. You own and are to be accountable to free will within the heart and mind...Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
What I do is hear Christ.. what His will is would be mine, because as a child of God..I try to be obedent to Him. And repent when I fail in His glory because it was His promise in belief of His worthyness.
Are you baptized? Or are you just leading everyone into believing they need not be baptized?
Sndbay,
I can see right now that you don't even read my posts.. you are too interested in what you have to say. If I am in error... you as a Christian has the right to tell me so.. fyi according to Paul's episltes... so this stuff about not judging me is kind of garbage. Sorry.
If you would have actually READ my post.. I said you should be baptized in obedience to Jesus but it is NOT a requirement for salvation.. I was baptized. So I guess you can JUDGE whether I am" leading everyone to believe they need not be baptized"... oh ye who does not judge.. lol ( sorry couldn't resist the hypocrisy)
Being baptized is a declaration to EVERYBODY , humans and spirits that a person is changing his / hers life from being a nonbeliever to a believer in Jesus . If I honour that declaration I am saved not because I declared it but because I kept the faith in Christ!! If I do not honour that declaration , will I be saved even if I was baptized? Don't make yourselves servants of words , but let the words be your servants!This whole thing reminds me the Sabbath and how the Jews tried to trick our Lord , but the Lord said that the man was not made for the Sabbath , but the Sabbath was made for the man!!
If you find my question, as a way for me to judge you, you are mistaken. You have twisted the original fact that the judgement was your determined value of baptism as you proclaim it to be. So by questioning what you proclaim as truth, others might also see you do believe in being baptized. That is a seed of truth...Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
sndbay,
I absolutely believe in being baptized! I just don't think someone who isn't won't be saved. I believe those on their deathbeds that haven't had the chance will be saved, I believe those that believe but are ignorant of baptism will be saved. I believe the stubborn that won't for whatever reason.. will be saved. There lies the difference.
By the way.. that second and third sentence you wrote... call me a blonde but duh.. I don't know what you are saying. I did however understand the first and the last.
Sndbay, the king james is easier to follow... LOL please don't get angry with me.. I just always struggle tying to understand you. I suppose it is my fault. Sorry :(
This is a rude comment, when I have quoted scripture and asked a question. I had addressing your statement concerning Paul.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Followed with a question in scripture..Quote:
Originally Posted by Sndbay
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Do you understand what denial of the Holy Spirit would mean?
I find my part in this conversation ends when you suggest what I offers is kinda garbage.
Sndbay,
All now don't go getting all mad at me. I never said Paul was the JUDGE. But he did say when a brother or sister was out of line they could be told. I guess you would have to JUDGE them in order to tell them they were wrong.
You know the Word says not to be easily offended... I really didn't mean it in a mean way... I just talk like I would in real life and it can come across badly when you read it.. thats is all. :) I do NOT think the stuff you offer is garbage... but I believe that we can tell judge one another as Christians and doctrine goes...
Forgiveness is apart of truth.. So can we communicate further with honest hearts and minds?
What is your take on Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Do you believe this gift of the Holy Spirit can be given up or should be missed?
I don't feel people that have lived their lives as choice in forgetting to do as God instructs can expected to be saved..There is an important part of being given FREE WILL.
sndbay... I don't understand what you are getting at here. You quoted my earlier post and yet didn't reply with anything that had anything to do with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
If you are here to just spit out scripture to those that you feel need preaching to, then that is fine... have fun but I hope that one day you learn how futile that type of teaching/attempt at conversion is.
You might get a little further at bringing others to Christ by having real, serious discussions with them and addressing their questions, rather than avoiding the answers by trying to hammer typical dogma down their throats.
Back to the original point... I, too, see that Acura is very well versed in the Bible and am a bit surprised to hear him, or any other, believe that Baptism is a requirement of Salvation. I may be wrong and it actually may BE a requirement... but I have not heard any interpretation of that before.
I am curious to see what else would lead you, or anyone to that belief.
Act 8:34-38 "And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him."
To me, this passage seems to recount that baptism is a byproduct OF salvation, not a requirement FOR salvation.
Excellent way of looking at it, Hicky ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJizzle
Posted #92
My intended post was to that which is written Word. The Word speaks of us being converted as a child of God, as being obedent to the written Word of Our Father. A child listens to their Father (commandment as well to honor your father, that which is what children should do) and many more scriptures that speak of obedience. Hearing the Word and following Jesus are works of faith in obedience. You said ok, then said it doesn't say anything about not baptised. Individual who would not are not obedent to the Word, and further posting have shown what they give up or choose of free will.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJizzle
As for other posts I have already submitted was what is written concerning baptism.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Should a person deny this gift?
AND Each individual becomes a servant of righteousness when baptized. Meaning the individual begins the web of a garment in faith. This is a judgement in the final book of life. The water destroys evil that causes sin.
1 Peter 3:20-21 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Again do you walk in Christ or do you live life in your own way? I believe it is a choice in free will of accountability.
Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
HistorianChick, to me this is an important fact in determine whom can be baptized. As many are baptized as infants where this scripture clearly stated "And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest." This teaching should be induced to those who elect to submit children unaware of what they receive or believe. The dedication of a child at birth is another discussion, and ends up neglected when baptism done at birth.Quote:
Originally Posted by HistorianChick
1 Peter 3:20-21 is the requirement..
Choice..
But wait a minute... You say that I Peter is THE requirement for salvation and that baptism is a part of and a necessity for salvation, right?
You are right when you say that I Peter 3:21 explains it.
"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"
To me, and this is only my interpretation, it is saying that baptism doesn't save us (because what IS salvation, but the washing of our sin-stained heart in the regenerating blood of Christ) "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh" but "in answer of a good conscience toward God." It is the first choice we make (as you said, it's a choice, not an infant baptism) as a Christian. AS a Christian, AFTER the washing away of the filth of sin, i.e. salvation.
I say this all the time but no one hears me... this is the MOST important thing you can do when reading the Word right after praying... UNDERSTAND WHO THE WRITER IS... WHY ARE THEY WRITING IT... WHO ARE THEY WRITING TOO! When you do that.. you are starting to rightly divide the Word of Truth that the Apostle Paul wrote to Timothy about.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
OK... in Acts.. what is going on? Jesus had just died on the cross , rose and right before their eyes had gone back to the Father...
Now, Did Peter understand anything about the Church? Did he think for one second it was going to take another couple thousand years before the Lord returned to set up his Kingdom? NOPE! He hadn't a CLUE about the Church or the Period of Grace.
Now, Who is Peter addressing? Me? no.. you... no who is talking to? OH YEAH... the JEWS the ones that just had JESUS CRUCIFIED! WOW. So when he tells THEM repent and be baptized you best believe they needed to. They had just rejected their messiah! In doing that at that time in history was HUGE.. they were denouncing all they had KNOWN under the Jewish Law.
Fast forward to Paul Epistles... Read ROMANS. WHO IS PAUL TALKING TO? Me, and YOU... the Church! You aren't going to find baptism as a requirement.
The BIGEST MISTAKE that people make when reading the WORD is mixing it up... not understand the context.. mixing law with grace. It isn't hard to understand if you will stop and figure out who the writer is talking to , why they are talking. It ain't rocket science.
You "agreed" with this...Quote:
Original post by HistorianChick: But wait a minute... You say that I Peter is THE requirement for salvation and that baptism is a part of and a necessity for salvation, right?
You are right when you say that I Peter 3:21 explains it.
"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"
To me, and this is only my interpretation, it is saying that baptism doesn't save us (because what IS salvation, but the washing of our sin-stained heart in the regenerating blood of Christ) "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh" but "in answer of a good conscience toward God." It is the first choice we make (as you said, it's a choice, not an infant baptism) as a Christian. AS a Christian, AFTER the washing away of the filth of sin, i.e. salvation.
And, I like Pixie-Sticks. :) (lol... forgive my sarcastic humor... I like to be random, too!)Quote:
sndbay agrees: Plus requirement continues in the three and "One".. Scripture holds stedfast to there being Our Father, Holy Spirit and Christ as One. It's Jesus baptism that is descriptive in noting as "One" 1st John 5:7
I'm sorry, but this statement seems like you're just pulling random thoughts out of your head. I don't understand how it pertains to the argument in question. Please, can you explain how this relates to the topic in hand?
Dr. J had a good point, if you address specific questions and arguments (as it were) in specific conversations, you may give more weight to your arguments, rather than changing the subject when you can't or don't want to address it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HistorianChick
It was a refer: of further ordained authority shown in scripture concerning Water/baptism.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
Bear Withness in Heaven
1 John 5: 6-7 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; [not by water only,] but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is Truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Heaven 1. The Spirit bears witness
Because 2. The Sprit is Truth
For 3. there are three
The Father, The Word, The Holy Ghost = three in ONE
Bear Witness on Earth
1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
Does this in any way suggest that we are missing something without Water included? It already suggests not water along..
So tell me who and what is spoken of here?Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Mal 3:16-17 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name. And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.
And Here who does baptism save?
1 Peter 3:20-21 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
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