Quote:
Originally Posted by Will144
Do Christians need to be circumcised?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Will144
Do Christians need to be circumcised?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morganite
No, that was in the old testament. Our hearts are what needs to be circumcised but obviously nowadays people are too arrogant with their own thoughts and though they see they do not understand. God shows the truth and you guys reject it and follow your own ways.
Is there anyone besides you who knows the truth, and if so where do I find these enlightened people?Quote:
God shows the truth and you guys reject it and follow your own ways.
Who are 'you guys'? Do you mean those not of your mind, or do you have a specific name for your group, or is that a secret?Quote:
Originally Posted by Will144
It seems a little churlish, you will agree, to keep telling people they enter the wrong doors when they go to worship, but to not tell them which door they chould go through so they can do it right, according to your understanding of the Bible and its teachings.
When you joined your group were you sworn to absolute secrecy, Or are you free to share with 'us guys' which one it is that you belong to?
If you are supposed to be a missionary for 'your guys' and encourage other people to come into the little circle of light that alone has the correct understanding of Christianity, then by keeping your group a dread secret you are not fulfilling the terms of your ministry and its expectations.
Can you give it a name other than hinting that it is "The Church of The Big Secret"? I am sure that I am not the only one whose curiosity you have tickled. Is it time to stop the game and get serious?
M:)RGANITE
If what you say is true, and I am not yet convinced that it is, then the only people who know The Truthare God and You.Quote:
Originally Posted by Will144
Instead of playing cat and mouse with our bafffled minds, why not get down to busioess, set out your table, your theology, your Bible support, and let us judge if what you have squares with the Bible and, whether it is better than what we have got? How does one set about joining God and you? Is there an application form, a catechism, an initiatory rite, an oath, a sacrifice, something done at sunrise towards the East, an incantation, brew, libation, potion, or a meeting under the hill by the grey wood at full moon? Master, show us the way.
What truths do you believe I have been shown by you but have rejected?
M:)
Are you saying that everything required of the congregation of Israel in the Old Testament is now redundant and not applicable to any aspect of Christian discipleship?Quote:
Originally Posted by Will144
Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
I myust be blind. His handle is Will 144. I therefore conclude that he is of the number who believe that only 144,000 souls will be saved in heaven. This is, of course, a misreading of what the scripture says.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Revelation 7:5
5 Of the tribe of Juda [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad [were] sealed twelve thousand.
Revelation 7:6
6 Of the tribe of Aser [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses [were] sealed twelve thousand.
Revelation 7:7
7 Of the tribe of Simeon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar [were] sealed twelve thousand.
Revelation 7:8
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin [were] sealed twelve thousand.
Revelation 7:9
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Revelation 7:10
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Revelation 7:11
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and [about] the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Revelation 7:12
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, [be] unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Revelation 7:13
13 ¶ And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? And whence came they?
Revelation 7:14
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Revelation 7:15
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Revelation 7:16
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
Revelation 7:17
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
This passage can in no wise be taken as limiting those who will be before the Lamb in heaven to 144,000 because they are, the Word says, numberless, and they are in heaven, and they are before the throne of Jesus Christ, who is on the throne of His Father. It is a simple error to believe otherwise, but it is not one that can be sustained once light is shed on the verse and its meaning.
Chapter 14
Revelation 14:1
1 ¶ AND I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Revelation 14:2
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Revelation 14:3
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Revelation 14:4
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Revelation 14:5
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
Note that verse 4 calls the 144K 'firstfruits' indicating that others will follow, so that the number from the tribes of Israel, except the tribe of Dan, will be swelled by other faithful souls.
The 'virgins' is a bit of a worry, because most JWs are married, and are not, therefore, virginal. Why is Dan's tribe selected to be unselected?
Yes will, I would like to know as well. The Catholic church's teachings (that you are condemning) are out there for all to read. Can I go to a Christian book store or library and find a book on your teachings instead of these anti websites.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morganite
Why not take a look at my reply to 'ordinaryguy' on the Sabbath.Saturday/Sunday question at:Quote:
Originally Posted by Will144
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christ...tml#post345680
You will find it instructive and correctional.
M:)
Maybe Will is a splinter off the JW's. I think they had to change their views after their membership passed the 144,000 mark. Ha!
What did/do you call your daddy? There is no difference between calling your male parent father, pops, pappy, dad, or any other name that established the relationship as father and son. Jesus was not telling disciples not to recognise their fathers, but he was telling them, something quite profound that you appear to have overlooked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Will144
It is not a matter of name, but of parentage. Think about it.
M:)
He has many JW beliefs, except the seventh day sabbath. Perhaps he has started his own cult and hasn't thought of a name for it yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
I know that some splinters of WI churches have similar beliefs, although they depend for support on bad translations and worse interpretations of an English Bible text.
So why fall in with that stuff? If it is something to believe in why not look within in? You do not have to refer to the belief of ancient man for that!
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJ
'Scripture' originally meant 'writings,' and the term was no specifically and exclusivley applied to holy writings until a much later date.
:)
The reality of the matter is; People are human. The Church is made up of humans. From the sinner to the saint, all are human, and all make mistakes. The Catholic Church is so vast that its would be suspicious if it did have only shining examples of exemplary behavior. But, it is full of corruption from the highest levels.
Don't get me wrong, the message is clear but the visuals are not. I am a Lutheran. Many in my family are Catholic. I came to the resolution that a church that devotes itself to a man who lived in "poverty" and was completely pacific, could ever have created a church that is so ornately endowed all over the world. I am attracted to the Lutheran Church because of the fact that Luther took it upon himself to disavow all the indulgences and other no-no's that the Church took part in at the time. It seems, to me at least, not much has changed.
I respect those who proclaim Christ as their Savior. I just wish people would practice what they preach. Is the Catholic Church inately evil? Absolutely not. If you are seeking a church, I suggest one of the Lutheran variety. While not perfect (Only one person ever was), it is a community of believers who do not show vanity in their beliefs, something the Catholics have made a point of doing in their long (sometimes proud, sometimes sickening) past
The question has been misunderstood as referring to people within the church when it is actually referring to the church as a shepherding organization via its official policies, and its past and present leadership of those it considers its flock.
I love this type of bigotry in disguise, call it by any other name, it still says the same thing. Study the history of the Bible itself. Who did you think put together the books of the Bible as we come to know them? How was the Bible preserved through the endless centuries? How did the Christian church exist for nearly 15 centuries before any of the churches of the Protestant sects develop out of the Reformation? The questions, and the facts to support them, are endless. But to a closed mind and to a religious bigot, that is always besides the point.
God, under any name, loves all people, and for the record, all nations too, not just Protestants in the United States.
P.S. I love that famous quote from Gandhi, I like your Christ. I don't like your Christians, because they are so unlike their Christ. Something to think about.
I think people have become so consumed in their religion and other peoples religion we've all forgotten the real reason why God put us here on this Earth! Not so that we could build walls of religion, but so that we could come together to win all the more! I'm so tired of hearing about this religion and that religion. Who cares about yours or anyone else's religion! There are hurting, dying people out there who need us "christians" to come together for them, but Satan has blinded us with all this religion stuff, so we've forgotten about the world we're supposed to be reaching! Comeon people! The return of Christ is obvioulsy soon!
It's very sad that groups are so negatively, not to mention falsely, stereotyped based on a few people's actions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesushelper76
Your approach to the Jewish Sabbath versus the Christian Lord's Day (Sunday) is polemical and hortatory suffers from a lack of objectivity and critical evaluation. By any objective standard you fail to establish the proposition that Christians have nothing more than tradition introduced by Constantine as a basis for keeping Sunday as their Sabbath day of rest and worship.Quote:
Originally Posted by Will144
You seem familiar with Samuel Walter Gamble's anti-sabbatarian arguments that shows fertile imagination coupled with an ignorance of history, the Jewish calendar, and Greek usage. His arguments have been discredited and rejected by responsible scholarship, and it is surprising to see them raise in a serious forum.
You involve yourself in an equally specious argument. Such as are proffered by Seventh-day Adventists and Messianic (Judaising) Christians, arguing that early Christian, Gentile, and Jew, alike, worshipped on the Jewish Saturday Sabbath until that day was deliberately and wickedly changed to Sunday in Constantine's time because of the pagan sun worship of the Romans.
That absurdity is commonly reproduced by Saturday sabbatarians who as one man report that the use of Sunday by Christians as a day of worship has been customary only "since the fifth or fourth century."
It is disingenuous to equate "the Lord's Day" with the Jewish Sabbath wherever it occurs in early Christian documents. Such convenient rewriting of history and historical usage is totally inexcusable at a time when scholarship has made available contemporary documents from the earliest Christian period, as a few representative citations will indicate:
"The Master commanded us [to celebrate] service at fixed times and hours."
"On the Lord's Day of the Lord [we] come together, break bread and hold Eucharist."
"We. . . celebrate with gladness the eighth day in which Jesus also rose from the dead."
"No longer living for the Sabbath, but for the Lord's Day, on which also our life sprang up through him and his death. . . . It is monstrous to talk of Jesus Christ and to practice Judaism."
"Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly. . . and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead. For he was crucified on the day before that of Saturn; and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to his apostles and disciples, He taught them these things."
(See I Clement XL:1-2; Didache XIV:1, 3; Barnabas XV:4-9; Ignatius to the Magnesians: VIII-X; Justin Martyr's First Apology, LSVII.)
Documentary sources from the first Christian century and from men who know the Apostles themselves make crystal clear the actual beliefs and practices of early Gentile Christians concerning Sunday, the Lord's Day, and their practice of sacramental worship upon that day in commemoration of the Lord's resurrection. There is no need for special interpretation to understand what John meant when he wrote to such people about being in the spirit on "the Lord's Day" (Revelation 1:10); nor to understand Paul's charge to his Gentile converts who were being troubled by the heretical Judaisers of their time:
[Christ blotted] out the handwriting of ordinances that were against us. . . and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross. . . Let no man therefore judge you in mean, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days.
(Colossians 2:14, 16; cf. 2 Corinthians 3:6-11.)
With respect to the early Christian practice of Sunday observance, it is easily, sidely, and clearly shown that the practice was widely followed in the first and second centuries (notwithstanding the Constantine theory)
Earliy Christian leaders clearly understood the distinction between the seventh day Sabbath of the Jews and the first day Sabbath of the Christians, and also understood the Judaising Sabbatarians' arguments that Christians should be keeping the Jewish Sabbath, which they rejected as a heretical false teaching not in keeping with the New Covenant.
Those who present his position are guilty either of incredible naïveté or else of deliberate misrepresentation. Built on this tottering foundation, their argument takes strength to itself by the process of repetition, until they arrive at the unsubstantiated conclusion that "Sunday observance in the Christian Church lies in tradition alone. "
Sabbath observance is an eternal principle, and the day itself is so ordained and arranged that it bears record of Christ by pointing particular attention to great works he has performed. From the day of Adam to the Exodus from Egypt, the Sabbath commemorated the fact that Christ rested from his creative labors on the 7th day. (Ex. 20:8-11.)
From the Exodus to the day of his resurrection, the Sabbath commemorated the deliverance of Israel from Egyptian bondage. (Deut. 5:12-15.) As Samuel Walter Gamble has pointed out in his Sunday, the True Sabbath of God this necessarily means that the Sabbath was kept on a different day each year.
From the days of the early apostles to the present, the Sabbath has been the first day of the week, the Lord's Day, in commemoration of the fact that Christ came forth from the grave on Sunday. (Acts 20:7.) Christians keep the first day of the week as their Sabbath
Sabbath observance was a sign between ancient Israel and their God whereby the chosen people might be known (See: Neh. 13:15-22; Isa. 56:1-8; Jer. 17:19-27; Ezek. 46:1:7); death was the decreed penalty for violation of it. (Ex. 31:12-17.) And the matter of Sabbath observance remains to this day as one of the great tests which divides the righteous from the worldly and wicked.
Judaising Christian observers of Saturday as the Sabbath—tell us that some pope is responsible for the change from the seventh to the first day of the week, and almost in the same breath they declare that Constantine the Great is the author of it. Roman Catholics, of course, accept, for the head of their church, the responsibility, but the change was made long before there was an ecclesiastical "head" in Rome.
It might, further, be observed that the Sabbath law does not, primarily, set apart either Saturday or Sunday as the Sabbath, but A SEVENTH PART OF THE WEEK. "Six days shalt thou labor, but the seventh is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God." It is immaterial where you begin counting, as long as the rule of working six days and resting on the seventh is observed. The rule is the same as that which governs tithe-paying. One dollar out of ten belongs to the Lord. Which one? Any of them. Which day of the seven belongs to the Lord? Any of them, but as the Sabbath is for the entire community, one day must be agreed upon for the good of all.
Which day of the week was observed before the exodus of Israel from Egypt, is not known, but, whichever it was, at the time of the exodus some change must have occurred, for a new reckoning began with that event (Ex. 12:2). The month of the exodus became the first month of the Jewish ecclesiastical year and the Sabbaths were, accordingly, rearranged. The beginning of the year was counted from the new moon of the Passover, which festival was celebrated between and including the 14th and 21st of the month. The 10th, 14th, and 16th were work days, and could never be Sabbaths (Sec. Ex. 12:3, 5, 6, 24).
From the fact that the Hebrew festivals seem to have been observed on fixed dates, as our Christmas, and were not movable holidays, like Easter, it has been thought that the weekly Sabbaths also were celebrated on fixed dates. If that is correct, the Hebrew Sabbath must have fallen on every day in the week in rotation, as does our New Year's day.
Aside from this argument, it would be impossible to observe as Sabbath any one and the same day all over the Earth, simultaneously. What would be the beginning of the Seventh-day Sabbath—Friday evening at sundown—at a given point in Asia Minor, would be Friday noon in Greenland, Friday morning in Alaska, midnight between Thursday and Friday in Australia, and Thursday evening at a given longitude east of the point of beginning. So, while the Sabbath day cannot be observed all over the Earth on the same day, a seventh part of the week can be dedicated to the service of the Lord everywhere.
Before. The Mosaic dispensation, the Sabbath was observed in memory of the creation; Israel celebrated it in memory of the exodus, and the followers of our Savior hold the day sacred to the memory of His Resurrection.
M:)RGANITE
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Thess news are just one more evidence that the catholic church has something pretty ed up inside, and of course mexico is ed up by the religion, even the government is catholic, the way catholic church ats on the politics, isn't directly done by them, is through some one else like the government, that, they act, you don't know they like to lie, and they like to cover their by blaming others, that's how the catholic church has always been. I talk because I was in a catholic school for 12 years, my parents are catholic, and I grew up in latin america, were the corruption is huge, and it's said proudly that 98% of us are catholic. I just want to say that, the catholic church have ed up the world, in so many ways, and yet people stupidly think on believeing in that, I think almost no body in it's senses, can measure the evil, that is hidden behind those love words and things they say, they are ed up.
magprob's
No the Catholic Church in not evil.
But a few in it have been.
There are over 1 billion Catholics and in that a few thousand have done evil things.
That is a very small percentage of the Catholics.
All groups of people have those who do evil things.
BUT...
Catholic haters and opponents like to single that Church out to spread bad news.
Should I consider you a Catholic hater or opponent?
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Old thread, closed
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