You are correct and I apologize. I didn't realize this is what most Christians believe. To be honest, I'm still not so sure, but I'll take your word for it until I find out otherwise.

So yes, or no... Are saying that most practicing Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc. will find their way to God in heaven? Or let me rephrase it. Are you saying that it's possible even for someone who is ignorant about Jesus Christ and worships Allah instead can be saved?

If this is what you're saying, I'll have to change my opinion of you at least somewhat. Christians believing they have an inside track to heaven and into God's grace, while everyone else is doomed to eternal hell because oops!. They missed out on Jesus, is a HUGE problem for me.

The Catholic religion must be softening. I'm sure when I was a kid, the answer was that people born in African villages who never heard of Jesus would unfortunately be sent to hell. I'm sure, because I remember asking my teacher Sister Alice about it and I'll never forget her answer or the look of pity on her face! Not sure how old you are, but I'm in my 40's. Back in my day, Catholicism was much stricter, gloomier, and more guilt ridden than it is now.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

Moonlitwaves-

I think you've explained God and heaven adequately and to my satisfaction. If I understand you correctly, you are saying:

God and heaven are perfection. They are absolute. Heaven is not so much a place as it is a state of perfection. Of all that is good and the complete absence of evil and all that is bad.

Since none of us are perfect (or can ever hope to be), it is impossible to be worthy of God's grace and His presence in heaven. In this way, heaven cannot be earned. We are never fully deserving of God or heaven. However...

God so loves us He is willing to provide us with a way to join Him in the glory of heaven. This is why He sent Jesus His only Son down to die for us. In this way, if we accept Jesus as our Savior, we might hope to be cleansed of our sins enough to enter heaven.

I might have a few things wrong here and there, but is this about right?

You've explained this all very well and I greatly appreciate it. It's even starting to make some logical sense to me when put in this way. Although I still don't get why Jesus had to be so brutally tortured.

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Yes my dear, you have it right!! I am so glad it is starting to make sense to you!

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

I'm also unclear on why God can't just forgive us.

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I answered this in my above post when I talked about blood representing life.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

Or why there is an earthly time limit for our souls to be cleansed.

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Because this world is going to end when God so chooses. He is not going to let the world continue in sin when this was not His intentions for the world in the beginning. But because it is sinful, He has provided us a way to live for eternity in the new earth (Heaven). Also to go along with that is that the limit is when you die. I will go into further deatail about that below...

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

Why can't those of us who don't believe all this stuff take care of it in the eternal afterlife?

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Because God wants you to choose to believe in Him. If He allowed you to wait until you see Him, until you know without a doubt that He is True then you no longer have a choice. You will believe because the proof is right in front of you. Actually it will no longer be about believing it will be absolute fact. This is not choosing Him.
Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." See, He rewards those who have faith. The ultimate reward of having faith that He is real and that He sent His Son to die is eternity in Heaven.
Why doesn't He just show everyone He is Truth, why must we have faith? Because, think about it. If we know without a doubt that He is Truth then we have no choice but to believe. Then we are essentially "robots". Forced to believe in Him because there is no other choice. If we have no choice but believe in Him then can we truly know what we have? You can't know what good is unless you know bad. This is why the tree of knowledge was put in the garden. It gave Adam and Eve the choice to trust in God's goodness and to choose to obey Him rather than be forced to because there is no other option.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

Exactly what is it about my soul that changes after accepting Jesus?

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Your soul will then spend eternity in bliss in heaven with your loving, merciful and graceful creator instead of punishment for your sins. This is the change, your soul is now delighful to God, pleases God. Your soul is eternal either way, salvation just changes the place in which your eternal soul will spend that eternity.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

What you're saying is that even if I sin less than you do, you're soul is cleansed with your acceptance of Jesus. Why is that? If I see Jesus after death I would accept Him as well. Now we both accepted Him, but I have sinned less than you (hypothetical... I'm not saying I really sin less than you).

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It is not about how much or how little you sin. It is because you sin period that you need cleansing. I answered above about seeing Jesus after death and believing.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

Why are you saved, but I am not?

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Because I had what God wanted me to have... faith. I believed that God sent His Son to save my soul therefore I received salvation. You must have faith. You must believe wholeheartedly in God and that Jesus died for you in order to be saved. And you must do this before you die. Otherwise it is not about faith anymore.

lobrobster,
God allows all to know Him. He does not hide. Those who ignore Him will face the consequences.

Psalm 97:5-7 (New Living Translation)
New Living Translation (NLT)
5 The mountains melt like wax before the Lord,
Before the Lord of all the earth.
6 The heavens proclaim his righteousness;
Every nation sees his glory.
7 Those who worship idols are disgraced—
All who brag about their worthless gods—
For every god must bow to him.

John 20:31
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
John 20:30-31 (in Context) John 20 (Whole Chapter)

Philippians 2:9-11 (New King James Version)
9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

You are correct and I apologize

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Apology accepted.

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. I didn't realize this is what most Christians believe. To be honest, I'm still not so sure,

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Major Traditional branches 1995
Branch Number of Adherents
Catholic 968,000,000
Protestant 395,867,000
Other Christians 275,583,000
Orthodox 217,948,000
Anglicans 70,530,000
Major Branches of Religions

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but I'll take your word for it until I find out otherwise.

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You don't have to take my word for it.
The Catholic Church is the largest Christian church, representing over half of all Christians, and is the largest organized body of any world religion.[3]
Roman Catholic Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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So yes, or no... Are saying that most practicing Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc. will find their way to God in heaven? Or let me rephrase it. Are you saying that it's possible even for someone who is ignorant about Jesus Christ and worships Allah instead can be saved?

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The doctrine I provided is self explanatory. Please read it. There is another doctrine which I adhere to, "Judge not lest ye be judged". I don't venture into God's business. He is my judge, my conscience is clear but I await His judgement. I judge no one, not even myself.

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If this is what you're saying, I'll have to change my opinion of you at least somewhat. Christians believing they have an inside track to heaven and into God's grace, while everyone else is doomed to eternal hell because oops!. They missed out on Jesus, is a HUGE problem for me.

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I thought you said you were born Catholic. Didn't you ever study the Catholic doctrines.

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The Catholic religion must be softening. I'm sure when I was a kid, the answer was that people born in African villages who never heard of Jesus would unfortunately be sent to hell.

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I became atheist at around 13. But I can honestly tell you that I never heard that from a Catholic when I was growing up. Although I heard it plenty from Fundamentalist Protestants. When I came back to the Church, I heard it more from Catholics and it may be due to a shismatic priest named Feeney who was excommunicated for preaching that only Catholics would go to heaven:

Feeneyism is a strict interpretation of Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus associated with the Reverend Leonard Feeney, M.I.C.M. (1897-1978). Feeney had originally been a Roman Catholic priest and a member of the Jesuit order. On account of disobedience, the Jesuit order dismissed Feeney in 1949, and on 4 February 1953 the Holy Office (now the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) declared him excommunicated "on account of grave disobedience to Church Authority, being unmoved by repeated warnings".
Feeneyism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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I'm sure, because I remember asking my teacher Sister Alice about it and I'll never forget her answer or the look of pity on her face! Not sure how old you are, but I'm in my 40's. Back in my day, Catholicism was much stricter, gloomier, and more guilt ridden than it is now.

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I'm 50. And Christianity as a whole was gloomy. It is one of the major reasons I became atheist. Christians did not seem to know anything except "thou shalt not".
Me, I wanted to do my thing and God was in the way. So I decided He didn't exist.

I don't want to leave this message on a down beat about Christianity. After I made an effort of will to become Christian and specifically Catholic, I discovered the peace that only Jesus can give and what many people don't talk about, the joy that only Jesus can give.

Why don't people talk about it? I suppose because it is beyond words.

Sincerely,

De Maria

You guys are awesome. :)
Just felt like saying that.

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chaplain john agrees: Excellent answer I wish I'd said that Can I plagiarize a little bit from it?

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Be my guest.

Oh and thanks.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

No, but perhaps another person's book says it's ok. Now if you're saying it's ok to believe things on unfounded evidence, how then do you deny someone of another faith this same right? You can't very well label him as irrational when your standards for belief are no different than his.

Btw- Are you really a chaplain who knows something about this (on a professional level)? If so, I think it's great that you post here. I don't know anyone very knowledgable that I can ask questions to.

When you talk about our perception not lining up with the teachings in the bible... What about biblical passages which if taken literally, would lead to what we now would consider immoral acts? Such as:

Isn't there a passage which states that if a man finds on his wedding night that the woman he is about to marry is not a virgin, he must stone her to death on her father's doorstep?

Doesn't the bible imply that if a kid disobeys his parents, it's ok to kill him?

Or that if you catch somebody working on the Sabbath day, they should be put to death?

What about the condoning of slavery in the bible? The abuse of women? Etc...

I realize reasonable people don't take these things seriously, but all these things are in the bible, are they not? So what if my perception was to take this literally and I went out and killed someone for working on the Sabbath? Would you conisder me wrong to have done so?

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I haven't been keeping up with this thread, but these questions all seem off topic to me.

I have a suggestion. If you're really interested, I'm sure the Christians on this board would be willing to help Chaplain John answer them if you post them on separate topics. One at a time. That way we can discuss them thoroughly.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Our Time Is Very Precious We Only Have So Much And We Do Not Know How Much But The More Of Your Time You Give To God In Prayer And Seeking Him The More He Will Bless You.

What I've found helps is walks I like in a sort of remote area and I take walks and save time on the weekends and I walk in the back roads were not mutch cars go and it helps and just listen to the breeze and the birds

[QUOTE=lobrobster

There's this rabbi who devoted his whole life to pleasing God, and he did many wonderful things to help people in need throughout his life. Now if I ask do Christians believe that this man will burn in hell for eternity because he did not accept Jesus Christ as his Savior? Go ahead and cite scripture if you must.

But if I ask how you as a Christian can accept such a hidious belief, I'm not looking for scripture! I want to know how you reconcile this fact and live with it. That's a question that requires your honest human response. Does that make any sense?[/QUOTE]

Bingo! That is the question I want answered. And without scripture.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

But how?!! He's a Jewish rabbi for cryin' out loud! Rabbis do not, cannot, believe that Jesus was the Son of God.



How can you find it anything but morally obscene that a good, gentle, pious man who had devoted his entire life to God, is sentenced (by the very same God he worshipped) to eternal torture and punishment on a technicality?! This is what I mean. Scripture doesn't cut it here. You are accepting a complete abomination of morality and justice. How are you justifying calling this a loving god, when no human being with an ounce of compassion would treat their worst enemy this way?



Let me ask you a serious question... Do you honestly think that if you had been born in Iraq to Muslim parents that you wouldn't be worshipping Allah and the koran right now? I think if you had been born in Israel, you'd be Jewish right now. Had you been born in India, you'd be Hindu, or a Buddhist. Had you been born someplace in Africa, you'd be worshing the ju-ju on the mountain. It is only by the sheerest of accidents you happen to be Christian. And THIS is what has you convinced you're religion is right?

Or is it that you think Christians are smarter than Muslims? Or Jews? Or Hindus who are just as convinced they are right about their beliefs?

The point I'm making is, that rabbi is every bit as convinced he's right about god as you are! And you have no edge over a practicing rabbi. He's just as likely to be right about god as you are, and undoubtedly more so.

Certainly if there's a loving God He understands this. He understands that a Jew cannot believe what a Christian does. So you've got a HUGE problem if you believe he did everything else right, but will still burn in hell for eternity because he got one technicality about Jesus wrong. Like I said, it's a hidious concept. What if YOU'RE wrong and it is Allah you should be worshipping?

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WOW! It's like you took the words right out of my mouth. This is what I have been asking fundamental christians for years. I don't believe a loving God would punish for eternity his people just because they were brought up to believe a certain way. Why is it that Christians are so unyielding in others beliefs? They seem to get angry.

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Originally Posted by cozyk

Bingo!. That is the question I want answered. And without scripture.

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I'll answer a question with a question... Why do you think we go around trying so hard to convert others to our belief?

It is what we are commanded to do by our Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ!!!

I try to keep a prayer in my mind all through the day. When I think about my family, I pray for them, when I think about someone who is sick, I pray for them. I think we are always thinking about someone or blessings we receive, or see someone in need. When I do I say a prayer for them or say prayers thanking God for all blessings we receive.
The Bible says to pray without ceasing.
It was hard to do this at first, but the more you pray the easier it gets to find the time, and it's easy now to block out the outside noises that use to bother me. When I'm talking to God I don't really notice the noise around me anymore, that's God's time. I really enjoy it.

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Originally Posted by chaplain john

I'll answer a question with a question... Why do you think we go around trying so hard to convert others to our belief?

It is what we are commanded to do by our Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ!!!

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You don't answer a question with a question. Answer the question that was put before you in a truthful heart felt manner please.

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Originally Posted by cozyk

You don't answer a question with a question. Answer the question that was put before you in a truthful heart felt manner please.

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OK from my heart

It is not my wish nor is it the wish of the God that I serve that any should perish (suffer damnation) that is why he sent his Son to take their place (be the one perfect sacrifice) so that they can (if they will only choose to do so) receive the free gift of salvation. That is why I spend a great deal of time working to bring the Gospel to everyone who will allow me to do so.

I try not to pressure anyone, if I am told that someone doesn't want to hear what I have to say I generally change the subject with an apology. It is their God given right to accept or reject the message that I bring and if they reject it they will have to pay the price. God does not condemn them... They condemn them self by their rejection.

It breaks my heart to think that anyone should step out into eternity without accepting the Salvation that is offered through Christ but I cannot make the decision for them and neither can God for that would be taking away the free will that he gave them in the first place.

Your refusal to accept my first answer leads me to believe that you are a contentious sort of person who apparently thinks he has heard it all, has already made up his (if you are female I apologize for the male pronoun) mind and does not intend to change it no matter what is said. So I will say good-bye... I don't intend to respond further but I shall pray that God will reveal his truth to you.

Blessings!

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Originally Posted by chaplain john

OK from my heart




Your refusal to accept my first answer leads me to believe that you are a contentious sort of person who apparently thinks he has heard it all, has already made up his (if you are female I apologize for the male pronoun) mind and does not intend to change it no matter what is said. So I will say good-bye... I don't intend to respond further but I shall pray that God will reveal his truth to you.

Blessings!

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No, I am not contentious. In fact, I avoid confrontations anytime I can.

I was raised as a christian and I know the "entrance exam" for getting into heaven. But... what about people who were NOT raised as christians? I can not believe that my God would condemn them to an eternity in hell, just because they were not born and raised in a christian home.

That issue STILL has not been addressed. I haven't "heard it all "as you say, because I still haven't heard a reply about the millions of souls that are good, God loving people that were born under different circumstances than you. Are you telling me that those people will burn in hell ?

What about people who never even heard about a bible? Is ignorance an excuse for a pardon? My problem with christianity is that it is so exclusive. My way, or the highway.

:) G'Day ; This is an interesting subject which takes a little getting over, how "good people" can be damned.
In the first place if salvation was of works, i.e.. How good or bad we are, in the sight and compared to God, none would be saved, even good people have their dark side, a person would have to be perfect from the moment of their birth, not possible, only Jesus could be perfect, because He inherited nothing from Adam, He is of the seed of the woman and God, not Adam.
Secondly, the Jews were told, from the time of Moses of the coming of Emanuel, how when, where and by whom, and when all was fulfilled in Jesus they rejected Him and still do, you say they worship God, but when God put on flesh and came to pay the price for their sins they rejected the very God who you say, and they say, they worship.
Thirdly, salvation is not of races or denominations or religions, the bible and the Christian churches testify of the RISEN CHRIST, the Jews and the Muslims testify of the very existence of God, that no man of any faith can ever say "I never knew" all have heard, but salvation is of God alone, it is Him, of His own council, who saves from every nation and kingdom and tongue, His own children raised up in every generation, in every peoples, from righteous Abel to the last, not of works but of GRACE.

Many Blessings Miykle :)

[QUOTE=cozyk
What about people who never even heard about a bible? Is ignorance an excuse for a pardon? My problem with christianity is that it is so exclusive. My way, or the highway.[/QUOTE]

It is impossible to answer a question about Christianity without using scripture. (and this is off the original question) So here is your answer. Whether you take it or leave it is completely up to you.

Rom 1:18-20
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
(KJV)

Blessed are you Galveston 1 that the Lord God has opened your understanding to the truth of this, our God is a LIVING GOD, who calls His children out of every nation, no matter their beliefs or religion, salvation is of God alone for Jesus Christ's sake, to raise up a family for Himself, to love and to be loved, through many trials and tribulations, forging the links which bind a family together, in preparation for the world to come, we cannot earn it by our works or which religion we belong to but as we were elect in Jesus Christ before the world begun.
SAVED Freely by Grace ; Meritoriously by the blood ; instrumentally by faith ;evidently by works ; not of ourselves but a gift of God.
Blessings Miykle