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Originally Posted by N0help4u

That is no different than saying God did not need flesh to come to earth as a human through Jesus.

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A CORRECT and ACCURATE statement!

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

Why would that be saying Jesus sinned? Do you know what a soul is?

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This was a follow-up to the person who said that the 'sacrifice' was that God experienced sin, which the poster defined as separation of the soul. This indicates 1) Jesus was not God because he had a soul, something God has no need for; 2) Jesus sinned -- If the 'sacrifice' was that God experienced sin, and the claim is made that Jesus was God, then this is the same thing as saying "Jesus sinned."

Show me how I am not correct.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Death is a separation of body and soul.

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Originally Posted by ZachZ

This is interesting. So what use does God have for a 'soul'? A soul is something that only humans need.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

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Originally Posted by ZachZ

Christ’s soul slept. This indicates again that Jesus was not God. Only humans have souls. God has no need for a soul.

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I think I can resolve both these objections with one explanation. Once again, your objection is probably my failure for not being clear.

In my first post I stated that Christ was a Man and as such had both a body and a soul. I also said that God IS. I don’t think I’ve got the wherewithal to define God – nor does anybody.

The Man that was, is, and always will be, Christ died; by definition of death, it entailed a separation of the body from the soul. For three days the body continued in corruption. The soul descended into Sheol for the same three days, a place Jewish faith holds to be a waiting place for souls. Descending to Sheol was always referred to in Scripture as being asleep.

We take Christ’s soul to be rather different in that it was pure and in perfect communion with God. Nevertheless, Christ’s soul went to Sheol until the resurrection where it was re-united with the body. Upon the ascension, the resurrected Man called Christ, body and soul, re-established its communion with God; who is a Triune of three persons, God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Christ sat at the right hand of God.

So, yes only humans have souls as did Christ who was human. The second person of the Trinity has, among other things, a human soul. I’m assuming you’re not denying Christ his humanity? I don’t believe I implied that God (the fist person in the Triune) had a soul, what was said was that God IS.

"Therefore, both Jesus the man and Jesus the God were crucified."

JoeT

Yes soul does not equal sin Adam and Eve had a soul before they sinned.


defining spirit, soul, and body

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

Yes soul does not equal sin Adam and Eve had a soul before they sinned.


defining spirit, soul, and body

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You lost me.

OP seems to think soul = sin

Jesus is a separate person from God. He is God's son, He is not God. Genesis tells how Jesus was created by God as the first fruit of His Creation, how God was especially fond of him, but as for Jesus, his thoughts were with {he was fond of} the humans God created on Earth. The angels in heaven are also called God's sons, Jesus, his firstborn, is also the Archangel Michael. When Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden, eating the fruit off God's tree of Knowledge, in order to prevent them from also eating from the tree of life God put them out of the garden. Jesus calls Himself the tree of life. Was He actually there in the garden at the beginning of creation too? When Abram was tested, he offered up his son as a sacrifice. Did God kill his son? No, he basically said, that's all right, I will accept this ram caught in the thornbushes as your sacrifice. When God offered up His own son, what did man do? He killed God's son. In the Old Testament David is called God's son, God says I will become his father, and he will become my son. David at this point had already been born, so how could he now have a different father? It was similar to the born again arrangement, David was to become a new person entirely.

Zach you are ignoring what the point of my response was. You are trying to logically understand something that is spiritual. Maybe you never operate on a spiritual level which is truly sad. You can't answer a spiritual question with the physical mind which you are apparently proud to be stifled by

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Originally Posted by wildandblue

Jesus is a seperate person from God. He is God's son, He is not God.

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You are either declaring your polytheism, or you admit that Jesus is not God here -- I am not sure which, your response is unclear. Either response puts you outside the stated beliefs of normative Christianity, and so you're not addressing my original question.

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Originally Posted by pnkrkmama

Zach you are ignoring what the point of my response was. You are trying to logically understand something that is spiritual. Maybe you never operate on a spiritual level which is truly sad. You can't answer a spiritual question with the physical mind which you are apparently proud to be stifled by

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The 'point' of your response seems to be: I admit my beliefs are illogical and self-contradictory, but because this is a "spiritual" subject, logic does not apply. You are still saying: Answer C: My beliefs are self-contradictory and illogical.

This may be satisfactory for you, but not for me or any other sensible person who doesn't feel that one must abandon all logic and reason when studying Torah. God gave me a sharp, inquisitive and logical mind, and I see no reason to throw away these gifts that God gave me when my thoughts turn to Him and His Torah.

Read sentence three of my original response--Jesus is not God. He is God's son. Once resurrected, He sat down at the right hand of the Father. Told, sit at my right hand, I will make a footstool out of your enemies for you to rest your feet on. Was God looking in a mirror here? Was He talking to Himself? Of course not. God sent His perfect son as a ransom sacrifice for the sin of the imperfect man Adam. This is all in the Bible. How does pointing this out not make me a Chistian? I was trying to help, not annoy you. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

I think I can resolve both these objections with one explanation. Once again, your objection is probably my failure for not being clear.

In my first post I stated that Christ was a Man and as such had both a body and a soul...

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You are still providing Answer B: No sacrifice. Without the death of God, what true sacrifice was there? The entirety of the Christian idea of 'grace' is that God died for your sins. The narrative you provided shows that God did NOT die, for any purpose. All that can be said is that God created a human being (at no expense to Himself) and sent this human being to die in an un-kosher manner for a purpose prohibited by Torah. Such a 'sacrifice' is invalid and meaningless.

The closest I can make sense of the trinity is like a triangle with three dots within it.
It is ONE triangle yet three dots.

Your right I don't have an answer... but then I don't feel the need

There are many things in life that I as a mere mortal do not understand.

Our brains cannot comprehened all things... I personnaly don't think we are meant to

But for the Grace of God...

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Originally Posted by 0rphan

Your right i don't have an answer...Our brains cannot comprehened all things

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Thank you for your honest answer.

Well first of all jesus is all things
He is god the father the son therefor when he died on the cross for our sins he did actually die for our sins
All together he is one and so that means that he resurected himself because as I said he is everything the father and the son

I don't know for a fact but that is what I think and to tell you the truth I think you need to just believe and take it as that

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Sure. But before we do so, lets talk logic. Do you know the definition of a "loaded question"?

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I sure do! And I am happy to talk logic! I feel we sure could use some here. So let's get started:

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Originally Posted by De Maria

...every answer which you can possibly conceive will justify or confirm your presupposition.

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My question is only "loaded" problematically IF I am making an incorrect assumption. Such as in your example:

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Originally Posted by De Maria

"have you stopped beating your wife?"

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the question can only be shown to be "loaded" and therefore invalid if the underlying assumption--that the person you are asking is indeed beating his wife--can be shown to be untrue.

Therefore my question back to you is: What is the underlying assumption in my question that you can demonstrate not to be true?

RE: definition of death:

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Originally Posted by De Maria

your spirit separates from your body and you are dead because your body is no longer animated by your spirit.

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I have no problem with your definition, let's use it.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

your spirit continues to live in the after life

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fine...

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Originally Posted by De Maria

So, what happened to Jesus on the Cross? Jesus died because His body was no longer animated by His Spirit. Yet His Spirit continued to live ...

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You are still providing Answer B: No sacrifice. God sent a man He created to go get himself killed. No negative effects reached God Himself. So what real sacrifice was there? No true sacrifice = no atoning death possible.


If mine is a 'loaded question' you still have to show me what my incorrect underlying assumption is.

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Originally Posted by fixxs

i dont know for a fact but that is what i think and to tell u the truth i think u need to just believe and take it as that

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Answer C: Willful self-delusion.

It seems to me nothing is going to please u so if u really want a good and true answer why not go and ask your paster

It seems to me nothing is going to please u so if u really want a good and true answer why not go and ask your paster
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Fixxs

Exactly what I was getting ready to say. With some people even God himself in person face to face would not convince them.