Psalm 69:5
O God, You know my foolishness;And my sins are not hidden from You.
Psalm 69:4-6 (in Context) Psalm 69 (Whole Chapter)
1 Corinthians 1:18
[ Christ the Power and Wisdom of God ] For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 1:17-19 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 1 (Whole Chapter)
1 Corinthians 1:21
For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
1 Corinthians 1:20-22 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 1 (Whole Chapter)
1 Corinthians 1:25
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1 Corinthians 1:24-26 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 1 (Whole Chapter)
1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 2:13-15 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 2 (Whole Chapter)
1 Corinthians 3:19
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their own craftiness”;
1 Corinthians 3:18-20 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 3 (Whole Chapter)


This is why it's hard to understand a believer's mind when you are not one. God says you can't unless you believe.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

So if god tells someone to fly a plane into a skyscraper, do you think they should go ahead and do it? What if god told YOU to do that! Would you?

I understand these sound like sarcastic questions, but I really don't mean them to be. Once you realize that there really are people in this world who think god talks to them and tells them to do such vile acts, it's well... Sobering to say the least.

So is it safe to say (in your case), that you would obey god if he directed you in a peaceful way, but would reject him if he were to direct you to commit an act of violence?

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If this is doubled I apologize I had trouble submitting the first answer.

If what you perceive God to be saying to you does not line up with the teachings of the Bible what you hear is NOT the voice of God. Nowhere in the Bible that I read does it teach that we should go out and commit suicide in an attempt to murder others.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

I'll be up front and admit I'm an atheist.

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I was an atheist from the age of 13 to the age of 27 (approximately, its not like I kept a diary or anything)..

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But I'm genuinely curious... What's a typical prayer session like for you?

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That is not a simple question. But let me give you the metaphor which is provided by Scripture:

Ephesians 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall be two in one flesh. 32 This is a great sacrament; but I speak in Christ and in the church.

Scripture likens the love of one's wife to the love one has for God. Is it always easy to love your wife?

For me, thanks be to God, most times, it is easy to love my wife. But sometimes, it isn't.

In the same way, sometimes, I pray with my heart and soul. But sometimes I pray to fulfill my duty to God.

I hope that answers your question.

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What do you pray for?

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That God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven. And for the perseverance to love Him all the days of my life.

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What do you say to God?

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What ever I comes to mind. Sometimes praise and love overflow my heart and that is all that I can think of saying. But at other times I complain about the way He is running my life.

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Has God ever said anything to you (not being sarcastic, just an honest question)?

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Yes.

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Have any of your prayers been answered?

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Yes.

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And if so, what makes you think it was God that answered and not some random chance event?

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I no longer believe in random chance events.

[quote]Again, I'm curious what it's like for people who actually believe they are talking to an invisible god. With all sincerity, I imagine it can be very theraputic. I meditate and wonder if prayer is anything like that?[/QUOTE

Well, yes and no. When I was atheist I used to practice a little bit of yoga and self hyptnosis to relax.

Prayer is like that usually. But when I'm "on fire", its more like someone takes my heart in their hand and squeezes it. Sometimes it is literally painful. It feels as though my heart is about to burst. But it isn't unpleasant.

I guess you might ask, "are you sure you aren't having a heart attack?"

And I'd have to answer, "no". But that isn't the usual symptom of a heartattack. As I understand it, usually, the left arm aches and the person turns a pale color. And then of course the person collapses. . None of those things have ever happened to me. And my doctor says I'm perfectly healthy. So, as far as I can see, its got something to do with the prayer, cause that's the only time it happens..

I hope that answers your question,

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by chaplain john

Nowhere in the Bible that I read does it teach that we should go out and commit suicide in an attempt to murder others.

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No, but perhaps another person's book says it's OK. Now if you're saying it's OK to believe things on unfounded evidence, how then do you deny someone of another faith this same right? You can't very well label him as irrational when your standards for belief are no different than his.

Btw- Are you really a chaplain who knows something about this (on a professional level)? If so, I think it's great that you post here. I don't know anyone very knowledgeable that I can ask questions to.

When you talk about our perception not lining up with the teachings in the bible... What about biblical passages which if taken literally, would lead to what we now would consider immoral acts? Such as:

Isn't there a passage which states that if a man finds on his wedding night that the woman he is about to marry is not a virgin, he must stone her to death on her father's doorstep?

Doesn't the bible imply that if a kid disobeys his parents, it's OK to kill him?

Or that if you catch somebody working on the Sabbath day, they should be put to death?

What about the condoning of slavery in the bible? The abuse of women? Etc...

I realize reasonable people don't take these things seriously, but all these things are in the bible, are they not? So what if my perception was to take this literally and I went out and killed someone for working on the Sabbath? Would you conisder me wrong to have done so?

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

No, but perhaps another person's book says it's ok. Now if you're saying it's ok to believe things on unfounded evidence, how do you deny him the right to do the same? You can't very well label him as irrational when your standards for belief are no different than his.

Btw- Are you really a chaplain who knows something about this (on a professional level)? If so, I think it's great that you post here. I don't know anyone very knowledgable that I can ask questions to.

When you talk about our perception not lining up with the teachings in the bible... What about biblical passages which if taken literally, would lead to what we now would consider immoral acts? Such as:

Isn't there a passage which states that if a man finds on his wedding night that the woman he is about to marry is not a virgin, he must stone her to death on her father's doorstep?

Doesn't the bible imply that if a kid disobeys his parents, it's ok to kill him?

Or that if you catch somebody working on the Sabbath day, they should be put to death?

What about the condoning of slavery in the bible? The abuse of women? Etc...

I realize reasonable people don't take these things seriously, but all these things are in the bible, are they not? So what if my perception was to take this literally and I went out and killed someone for working on the Sabbath? Would you conisder me wrong to have done so?

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These things you are referring to are in the Old Testament, the old covenant. Jesus came and made a New Covenant with His people.

He gave us two commandments:
Matthew 22:37-39 (New King James Version)
37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[b]

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Originally Posted by savedsinner7

God is perfect and we are not. We cannot attempt to understand Him by human reasonings

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But you DO claim to understand Him! Everyone here has made many claims about God and His goodness. It's only when something doesn't make sense and defies the essence of logic, that people fall back on "We cannot attempt to understand Him". Can you really not see that?

I guess I've learned all that I'm going to learn about this. I don't want to feel that I'm degrading you guys, or that I'm in opposition. I have sincere questions that I guess cannot be answered. It's frustrating.

If you were to say that God does not intervene, we'd be done with this by now. That would explain the atrocities and suffering in the world. But when you say He intervenes sometimes, but not others, this presents a very huge problem, which you deal with by simply ignoring it. The differenc between us is I cannot ignore it.

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Originally Posted by savedsinner7

These things you are referring to are in the Old Testament, the old covenant. Jesus came and made a New Covenant with His people.

He gave us two commandments:
Matthew 22:37-39 (New King James Version)
37 Jesus said to him, “ 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'[a] 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'[b]

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Thank you for your response -

I can certainly agree that the New Testament is gentler and more in accordance with our 21st century values than the OT. But still...

The Lord that Jesus asks us to love with all our heart, is the very same Lord who espoused such barbaric propositions in the OT. It's the same God who had Abraham come within seconds of killing his son presumably for no other reason than His own amusement (imagine the sheer terror that went through this child's mind as he watched his father prepare to kill him).

So if you're saying we can just throw the OT out, or dismiss it as ancient man's misinterpretation of God, I'll accept that. But I don't think that's what you're saying, are you?

And the NT does present one claim which is perhaps more barbaric than anything the OT has to offer (if that's possible). The concept of hell... Can there be any crueler concept than that of sending someone to a place where they suffer, and burn, and gnash their teeth in agony forever and ever until the end of time?

I'm a parent and I can't think of a single act of disobedience my children could commit that would make me wish such an unmitigated horror upon them. Yet, this loving God is willing to carry out such a sentence for the mere crime of apostasy? I say "mere crime", because He has provided us with the power of logic, yet has not provided a single shred of evidence that He actually exists. And if He does exist, He has allowed hundreds of other religions to flourish without any logical means of determining the "right" one, except for having the sheerest of luck to be born into the right family or geographical location on earth. Do you deny that had you been born in Pakistan to Muslim parents you wouldn't be worshipping Allah instead of the Judao-Christian God? So if God exists, He employs trickery in the cruelest sense.

So it turns out that the NT even with all its gentler teachings might just be more barbaric than anything in the OT with the introduction of hell.

Seriously... I know my comments may seem to have the purpose of being argumentative and I'm sure you'll lose patience with me at some point. But as I already stated, I used to be a Christian and these are just some of the things that led me to becoming an atheist. But I'm open minded. I'm throwing my issues on the table to see how better Christians respond. I want to know how you make sense of these things where I could not. I want to know if I may ever be able to make sense of them and return to faith. Thanks again.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

But you DO claim to understand Him! Everyone here has made many claims about God and His goodness. It's only when something doesn't make sense and defies the essence of logic, that people fall back on "We cannot attempt to understand Him". Can you really not see that?

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No one here has claimed to completely understand God. We are to try to think as God would, live as God would, love as God would, etc. When we read our Bibles, we attend church and other Bible studies, we pray and talk with God, we ask for understanding, and with all of this we learn more about God, and we understand more about God. But never did we claim, nor do we think we can possibly completely understand all there is to understand. Not with this imperfect mind anyway. God is infinite. We, with these finite minds, are limited to what we can understand. But we believe that God gives us what we need to know if we search for it in spirit and meaningfully.

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Originally Posted by MoonlitWaves

No one here has claimed to completely understand God.

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But c'mon Tara, you ARE claiming to know at least enough about Him to reach certain conclusions. As I said before...

If you didn't proclaim divine intervention in the first place, I could've left this alone a long time ago. But when someone claims it was God who saved their child, or made their life better in some way, then they should be held accountable for the children who are not saved, or who's lives are intolerable. Again, you can't have it both ways no matter how much you insist that you can. Either He intervenes, or He does not. Take your pick. If He doesn't intervene or answer prayers, then it makes sense and we can stop right here. But when you start crediting God for all that is good, while claiming He has nothing to do with the bad, you are only kidding yourself.

What started this whole tangent for me was another poster claiming that God had saved her sick child. While I couldn't be happier that her daughter is OK, how dare she claim that God chose to save HER kid, while at that very moment another child was dying at the hands of an abusive parent, or choking to death on a chicken bone, a marbel, or their own vomit! Just how arrogant does one have to be to think that their child is any more important to God than another child?

Sorry... This gets me really riled. I think you guys should just say that God does not intervene and leave it at that. But until you do, I think the rest of us rational thinkers have every right to hold you, your beliefs, and your god accountable for helping some, but not others who are just as deserving.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

But you DO claim to understand Him! Everyone here has made many claims about God and His goodness. It's only when something doesn't make sense and defies the essence of logic, that people fall back on "We cannot attempt to understand Him". Can you really not see that?

I guess I've learned all that I'm going to learn about this. I don't want to feel that I'm degrading you guys, or that I'm in opposition. I have sincere questions that I guess cannot be answered. It's frustrating.

If you were to say that God does not intervene, we'd be done with this by now. That would explain the atrocities and suffering in the world. But when you say He intervenes sometimes, but not others, this presents a very huge problem, which you deal with by simply ignoring it. The differenc between us is I cannot ignore it.

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Sometimes God does not intervene. He allows circumstances in our lives to show us how much we need Him. He uses this to give us the opportunity to turn our hearts to Him. As for understanding what cannot be understood, this is called faith.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

The concept of hell...

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Was not created for man. It was created as a punishment for Satan. However, if we ignore the gentle call of the LORD and choose to live in rebellion to Him and His Word, then He has no choice. He cannot allow sin to enter Heaven, which is perfect. Those who do not turn to Him will be sent to Hell. Not God's choosing, but by our own.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

Job 36:12
But if they do not obey,They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:15-17 (in Context) John 3 (Whole Chapter)
John 10:28
And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:27-29 (in Context) John 10 (Whole Chapter)

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

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Originally Posted by savedsinner7

Sometimes God does not intervene. He allows circumstances in our lives to show us how much we need Him.

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You keep saying this, while ignoring the logical consequences of such an implication. When you say, "faith" (like you did at the end of your post), I'm willing to accect that and we can be done. Faith by definition is belief in the absence of evidence (or even in the face of contradictory evidence, which is the case here). So if you just want to say, "I don't know. It's ALL faith", I'll say fine.

But when you make statements like the one above, it demands explanation. Why? Because it doesn't make sense if you don't also explain why you extend the leeway to God that you wouldn't expect any reasonable person to extend in any other situation! Suppose...

I'm driving in a desert with a tankload of water when I come upon 3 stranded people who are dehydrated and dying of thirst. It wouldn't take much for me to provide all of them with enough water to relieve their misery. Instead, I give water to one, while ignoring the other two and watching them suffer and die of dehydration. Wouldn't you you question my cruelty? Wouldn't you even think to ask me why I helped one, but not the others? Why I stood there watching one quench his thirst, while letting the others die as they begged me for water?

Don't be silly! Of course you would! Yet, when it comes to God, the rules of common sense, logic, and reason cease to exist. No longer do you question a lack of mercy and moral decency we would expect even from a common crimminal! Why is that?

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Originally Posted by savedsinner7

However, if we ignore the gentle call of the LORD and choose to live in rebellion to Him and His Word, then He has no choice.

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Has no choice? Are you saying that an omnipotent, omnisentient Creator who made the entire universe, and who can simultaneously hear and answer billions of prayers, part a sea, flood the entire earth, etc. is powerless to forgive someone who was unfortunate enough to be born in a place where people think Allah is the real God?

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He cannot allow sin to enter Heaven, which is perfect.

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What do you mean by sin? Aren't we ALL sinners? If I understand things right, even a convicted murderer can be saved on his deathbed if he repents and accepts Jesus as his Savior. Is this incorrect? Why then, can't someone be forgiven for being born in the wrong geographical location, or having the misfortune of having parents who were Jewish, instead of Christian? Or even somebody like myself, who sees no compelling reason to believe any gods exist?

Yes, lobrobster, we are all sinners. Jesus died for us and if we choose to believe in what he did for us we will be cleansed from our sins.

God's mercy is perfect. However, many still choose to turn their backs on Him and He will not be taken for granted. He is Holy. He is Perfect and we cannot know His ways unless He reveals them to us.

Maybe you should check out Not Religion! - Home and 1-888-NEED HIM - Why Am I Here? What Makes My Life So Hard? Answers to Life's Greatest Questions

You may find more of the answers you are looking for.

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Originally Posted by savedsinner7

Yes, lobrobster, we are all sinners. Jesus died for us and if we choose to believe in what he did for us we will be cleansed from our sins.

God's mercy is perfect. However, many still choose to turn their backs on Him and He will not be taken for granted. He is Holy. He is Perfect and we cannot know His ways unless He reveals them to us.

Maybe you should check out Not Religion! - Home and 1-888-NEED HIM - Why Am I Here? What Makes My Life So Hard? Answers to Life's Greatest Questions

You may find more of the answers you are looking for.

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Thank you for the links. I'll check them out. Here's a question...

Do you think that when we die, we are given a chance to repent? Or must this be done BEFORE we die? Of course, if I were to see Jesus in heaven, I'd believe in Him. If I were to even see a heaven, I'd believe in heaven.

What about Muslims, Hindus, Jews, and those from other religions? Will they have a chance to convert after they die? Or are they doomed to eternal torture and suffering because they happened to have been brought up in the wrong religion?

And what about you? How do you account for the fact that you happen to belong to the "right" religion? Is it because you're smarter than all Hindus, Muslims, and Jews? Or is it some other reason? When I was a Christian I wondered about this all the time... What made me think I had inside info on God that all other religions didn't have?

Revelation 20
Satan Bound 1000 Years
1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
The Saints Reign with Christ 1000 Years

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a[a] thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
Satanic Rebellion Crushed

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[b] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
The Great White Throne Judgment

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[c] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[d] 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

May I recommend the book Driven By Eternity by John Bevere. Its an alegory that is about the judgment and heaven and hell. There is also an audio CD of a dramatization of this called Affabel. It explains this very well.

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Originally Posted by savedsinner7

Was not created for man. It was created as a punishment for Satan. However, if we ignore the gentle call of the LORD and choose to live in rebellion to Him and His Word, then He has no choice. He cannot allow sin to enter Heaven, which is perfect. Those who do not turn to Him will be sent to Hell. Not God's choosing, but by our own.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

Job 36:12
But if they do not obey,They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:15-17 (in Context) John 3 (Whole Chapter)
John 10:28
And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:27-29 (in Context) John 10 (Whole Chapter)

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

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Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!! I could not have said it better myself. God did not create Hell for man! If anyone goes to hell it is their own fault. Their own choice. Yes!! Great response. I still have not spread enough reputation to rate your answer or I would have savedsinner.

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Originally Posted by MoonlitWaves

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!!! I could not have said it better myself. God did not create Hell for man!! If anyone goes to hell it is their own fault. Their own choice. Yes!!! Great response. I still have not spread enough reputation to rate your answer or I would have savedsinner.

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I didn't say it, the LORD did, I just pointed out His words. He does love each, but allows us to make our choice to serve Him or not. He will not force anyone to follow Him.

You see, my words are His words. I share with you what I know of Him, what He has revealed to me. Please see my profile for my experiences. This may help you to understand me better.

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Originally Posted by savedsinner7

You see, my words are His words. I share with you what I know of Him, what He has revealed to me. Please see my profile for my experiences. This may help you to understand me better.

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I just read your profile and I think it's very impressive! If belief in Jesus gave you the strength to turn your life around, I think that's great! I was in a similar situation through my teens and early twenties. I also turned things around, although without faith. So there's more than one way to achieve a means.

I also think you're a very valuable member to this forum. It's good to have someone as knowledgeable as you are about Christianity. But I think it's wrong to preach unless specifically asked to do so. Many here are not looking for a sermon, but want honest advice or answers from real people. For instance...

There's this rabbi who devoted his whole life to pleasing God, and he did many wonderful things to help people in need throughout his life. Now if I ask do Christians believe that this man will burn in hell for eternity because he did not accept Jesus Christ as his Savior? Cite scripture if you must.

But if I ask how you as a Christian can accept such a hidious belief, I'm not looking for scripture! I want to know how you reconcile this fact and live with it. That's a question that requires your honest human response. Does that make any sense?