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1) You are probably correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
2) Ants outnumber elephants. What's your point?
3) Depends on your belief. If you are an atheist, I doubt that you believe that your belief is God sent since you wouldn't believe in God.
4) That comment is purely inane.
2) more people believe that Christianity is not god sent
3)they may believe in the sun as their deity or rocks or whatever, the point is they could believe in anything
4)the probability of finding unbelievers in god is greater than finding Christians on another planet.
My whole point is that no belief system is any better or worse than another, its all in perspective, so as man meets others from other worlds, who are different in thinking, belief, or way of life, he must be tolerant, and not offend, or the bug eyed aliens may get mad, and destroy him, because they indeed can run faster with 6 legs as he can with 2. TA-DAAAAH!!
Quote=Capuchin-I'd just like to correct some of the terminology being used in this thread. "Other solar systems" makes no sense. It's called the solar system because it's the planetary system around Sol, our sun.
There are many suns in the universe with planets that revolve around them, They said so on Star Trek.
I'm not sure I agree with you talaniman on the atheism on other planets front, if there is a greater being, surely other intelligent beings would have a similar inkling that we seem to have about what created the world.
What if they are way smarter and know how the universe was created? I can only assume that, but if they can zoom all over the place in their saucers, they know a lot more than we do.
Of course, if you're saying that God is a human construct, then it's a product of the way our minds have evolved that makes us susceptable to religious thinking, and other beings may not have that kind of wiring.
I agree we are bound on this planet, and thats all we can come up with to explain what we see, hear, and feel.
I think intelligent life on other planets is almost certain given the statistics of the situation and what we have observed so far.
Me too!! ;)
[QUOTE=talaniman]1) more people believe that Christianity is not god sent
2)My whole point is that no belief system is any better or worse than another,QUOTE]
1)In a place called Jonestown, somewhere in South America, more people believed in Jim Jones than disbelieved him. As a result, the majority of the members of his group committed suicide. You could have 100 blind people standing at the top of a cliff. A smooth talking individual could convince 75 of them that by walking straight ahead 100 paces that they would be able to see again. The 75 walk straight ahead and fall off the cliff to their deaths. The point is that just because a majority of individuals believe a certain way doesn't mean that it is the correct belief.
2) There is only one truth. You could have a tall pine tree standing on top of a hill. One group of people could believe with all their heart that it is an oak tree. Another group could say, no, it's a poplar tree. Another could believe that it's poisen ivy and the last group would believe that it's a pine tree. You have 4 different belief systems. The members of all four groups are really nice people who smile a lot. Which group is correct? Since the tree is a pine tree, then ONLY the group who believes it's a pine tree is correct. Therefore, the "better" system of belief is the correct system of belief for truth is better than a lie.
You're missing my point here, our sun is called Sol, that's why we're in the solar system. There are no other solar systems because the other stars aren't called Sol...Quote:
Originally Posted by Talaniman
Quote=ActionJackson[quote=talaniman]1) more people believe that Christianity is not god sent
2)My whole point is that no belief system is any better or worse than another,QUOTE]
1)In a place called Jonestown, somewhere in South America, more people believed in Jim Jones than disbelieved him. As a result, the majority of the members of his group committed suicide. You could have 100 blind people standing at the top of a cliff. A smooth talking individual could convince 75 of them that by walking straight ahead 100 paces that they would be able to see again. The 75 walk straight ahead and fall off the cliff to their deaths. The point is that just because a majority of individuals believe a certain way doesn't mean that it is the correct belief.
Agreed. lambs can be led to slaughter because they know no better. Should we believe anything on the say so of ones who make claim to know whats best? Or should we responsible for our own action. (Some had to be forced at Jonestown, at gunpoint)
2) There is only one truth.
But many ways to see it, as in the tale of the blind men and their encounter with an elephant for the first time. They were all correct but only partly so, because they were only touching parts of him. A lesson in perspective.
You could have a tall pine tree standing on top of a hill. One group of people could believe with all their heart that it is an oak tree. Another group could say, no, it's a poplar tree. Another could believe that it's poisen ivy and the last group would believe that it's a pine tree. You have 4 different belief systems. The members of all four groups are really nice people who smile a lot. Which group is correct? Since the tree is a pine tree, then ONLY the group who believes it's a pine tree is correct. Therefore, the "better" system of belief is the correct system of belief for truth is better than a lie.
I don't know about this argument at all as I would just be happy to know its a tree, as to what kind, is subjective to a lot more investigation to me. In other words the burden would be on you to show why it is not poison ivy, or a poplar tree.
Your right as the systems are referred to by the name or designated number of the star. I stand corrected.Quote:
Originally Posted by Capuchin
talaniman "should we responsible for our own action."B]
Action You're kind of missing the point. The point is: just because a majority of individuals believe something doesn't make it so. A majority of people can believe that a man who died in his basement died as a result of breathing fumes when, in reality, he died of black mold spores. The truth was hidden from view but it was no less true and the majority belief didn't make it less true. Yes, we should all be responsible for our own actions.
Action "There is only one truth."
talaniman But many ways to see it, as in the tale of the blind men and their encounter with an elephant for the first time. They were all correct but only partly so, because they were only touching parts of him. A lesson in perspective.
Action However, the elephant was still an elephant. If we equate the elephant to the God of Christianity, Jesus Christ, then your analogy suggests that different people come to Jesus Christ via viewing Christ from different perspectives i.e. Lutheran, Baptist, Presbyterian, etc. In a similar sense, the pine tree would still be a pine tree whether you looked at it at sunrise, sunset, from the north or from the east from near or from far. No matter what the perspective, it would still be a pine tree.
talanimanI don't know about this argument at all as I would just be happy to know its a tree, as to what kind, is subjective to a lot more investigation to me. In other words the burden would be on you to show why it is not poison ivy, or a poplar tree.[/QUOTE]
Action. That wouldn't be too difficult. I would simply show you what poison ivy looked like, what a poplar tree looked like, and what a pine tree looked like. If you still chose not to recognize the pine tree on the hill as being a pine tree, then I would simply move on and seek someone with ability to recognize truth.
Quote=ActionJackson-talaniman "should we responsible for our own action."B]
Action You're kind of missing the point. The point is: just because a majority of individuals believe something doesn't make it so. A majority of people can believe that a man who died in his basement died as a result of breathing fumes when, in reality, he died of black mold spores. The truth was hidden from view but it was no less true and the majority belief didn't make it less true. Yes, we should all be responsible for our own actions.
And we should investigate to get the facts. And not assume because someone says so.
Action "There is only one truth."
talaniman But many ways to see it, as in the tale of the blind men and their encounter with an elephant for the first time. They were all correct but only partly so, because they were only touching parts of him. A lesson in perspective.
Action However, the elephant was still an elephant. If we equate the elephant to the God of Christianity, Jesus Christ, then your analogy suggests that different people come to Jesus Christ via viewing Christ from different perspectives i.e. Lutheran, Baptist, Presbyterian, etc. In a similar sense, the pine tree would still be a pine tree whether you looked at it at sunrise, sunset, from the north or from the east from near or from far. No matter what the perspective, it would still be a pine tree.
Why not equate the elephant to the muslim God or the Jewish God or the martian God, its stll God isn't it?? Its still a matter of perspective.
talanimanI don't know about this argument at all as I would just be happy to know its a tree, as to what kind, is subjective to a lot more investigation to me. In other words the burden would be on you to show why it is not poison ivy, or a poplar tree.[/quote]
Action. That wouldn't be too difficult. I would simply show you what poison ivy looked like, what a poplar tree looked like, and what a pine tree looked like. If you still chose not to recognize the pine tree on the hill as being a pine tree, then I would simply move on and seek someone with ability to recognize truth.
We agree a pine is a pine, and God Is God, that's our perspective, but would it be realistic to think an alien would understand our perspective, or we his????
Action You're kind of missing the point. The point is: just because a majority of individuals believe something doesn't make it so. A majority of people can believe that a man who died in his basement died as a result of breathing fumes when, in reality, he died of black mold spores. The truth was hidden from view but it was no less true and the majority belief didn't make it less true. Yes, we should all be responsible for our own actions.
And we should investigate to get the facts. And not assume because someone says so.
You're clearly arguing for the sake of arguing with no interest whatsoever in arriving at the truth. Once again, you completely miss the point by a mile. Your original post used the argument that sense non-Christians outnumber Christians that Christianity must somehow be incorrect. My argument is that just because a majority of individuals believe something doesn't mean that their collective belief is correct. If you can't agree with this simple and elementary conclusion then I am clearly wasting my precious time.
talaniman But many ways to see it, as in the tale of the blind men and their encounter with an elephant for the first time. They were all correct but only partly so, because they were only touching parts of him. A lesson in perspective.
Action However, the elephant was still an elephant. If we equate the elephant to the God of Christianity, Jesus Christ, then your analogy suggests that different people come to Jesus Christ via viewing Christ from different perspectives i.e. Lutheran, Baptist, Presbyterian, etc. In a similar sense, the pine tree would still be a pine tree whether you looked at it at sunrise, sunset, from the north or from the east from near or from far. No matter what the perspective, it would still be a pine tree.
Why not equate the elephant to the muslim God or the Jewish God or the martian God, its stll God isn't it?? Its still a matter of perspective.
Because we were discussing Christianity and the Christian God, Jesus Christ. Why would I even consider (as you routinely seem to do) changing the subject midstream? What's more, the Christian God is not the same as the Muslim god or the Jewish god. The list of guidlines (laws) that non-Christians believe that their gods have given them are contrary to the Laws that the Christian God has revealed to them. The Jewish god denies Jesus Christ (the Christian God) and the Muslin god believes that the Christian God (Jesus Christ) was just a prophet but no more than a mortal man. The Christian God (Jesus Christ) on the other hand, claims in Scripture that He is God. Major contradictions between the various religions; therefore, the gods/God of the various religions are not equal because they are contrary.
talanimanI don't know about this argument at all as I would just be happy to know its a tree, as to what kind, is subjective to a lot more investigation to me. In other words the burden would be on you to show why it is not poison ivy, or a poplar tree.[/quote]
Action. That wouldn't be too difficult. I would simply show you what poison ivy looked like, what a poplar tree looked like, and what a pine tree looked like. If you still chose not to recognize the pine tree on the hill as being a pine tree, then I would simply move on and seek someone with ability to recognize truth.
We agree a pine is a pine, and God Is God, that's our perspective, but would it be realistic to think an alien would understand our perspective, or we his????
It wouldn't matter what the alien's perspective would be since truth is truth whether we're on earth or on a distant planet. A pine tree on earth if uprooted and placed on another planet would still be a pine tree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talaniman
I'm agreeing with Talaniman here. What if they have exactly the same organism as a pine tree on their planet, they even call it a pine tree. But instead of what we do: leaving it to grow, then cutting it for fuel. The aliens use the trees to grow their young inside, as an incubator, until birth. For this reason, pine trees are sacred to these aliens.Quote:
Originally Posted by ActionJackson
Even though it's the same organism, our and their view on what a "tree" is is completely different. We're all "How on EARTH do you grow your young in a pine tree?" and they're like "How on OMICRON PERSEI VIII do you think it's okay to cut down a pine tree to use for fuel? And secondly how do you get any energy out of it?". They might as well be completely different.
You're clearly arguing for the sake of arguing with no interest whatsoever in arriving at the truth. Once again, you completely miss the point by a mile. Your original post used the argument that sense non-Christians outnumber Christians that Christianity must somehow be incorrect. My argument is that just because a majority of individuals believe something doesn't mean that their collective belief is correct. If you can't agree with this simple and elementary conclusion then I am clearly wasting my precious time.
Why are you mad because I don't believe your point of view and do not accept it as the only truth??? I am not a christian and my relationship with the Creator is a personal one, and has nothing to do with your beliefs. Your assertion that the majority is not always correct, I have agreed with that premise. I also assert that if the majority is wrong, that doesn't make the minority correct.
Because we were discussing Christianity and the Christian God, Jesus Christ. Why would I even consider (as you routinely seem to do) changing the subject midstream? What's more, the Christian God is not the same as the Muslim god or the Jewish god. The list of guidlines (laws) that non-Christians believe that their gods have given them are contrary to the Laws that the Christian God has revealed to them. The Jewish god denies Jesus Christ (the Christian God) and the Muslin god believes that the Christian God (Jesus Christ) was just a prophet but no more than a mortal man. The Christian God (Jesus Christ) on the other hand, claims in Scripture that He is God. Major contradictions between the various religions; therefore, the gods/God of the various religions are not equal because they are contrary.
There is only one God, so it logically follows that the names may change but God does not. whether on Earth, or Jupiter.
It wouldn't matter what the alien's perspective would be since truth is truth whether we're on earth or on a distant planet. A pine tree on earth if uprooted and placed on another planet would still be a pine tree.[/quote]
Seeing the aliens perspective, would help you understand him, so he doesn't just see you as his next meal. Your entitled to believe what you want, am I????........................................or do you see my perspective as unworthy, because it conflicts with YOUR truth???? Relax its only a debate.
I guess the only way that aliens on another planet could be Christian, is if Jesus is some sort of Inter-galactic astro-ambassador. :)
Heck, you don't have to go to another planet to have different perspectives concerning pine trees. You've heard the term "tree huggers" (they're people from other planets that came here to hug trees) and you also know that lumberjacks chop pines down all the day long. Two different perspectives but the pine tree remains a pine tree. If someone on a different planet raised their young in the pine tree, they might look much like the woodpeckers that we have on earth for all I know but the pine tree would still be a pine tree. Someone on Planet Amox I Auggeneva might eat pine with their eggs in the morning and drink distilled pine sap in the evening but it would still be a pine. Perspective doesn't change what something actually is. It might change how a person or "being" feels toward a thing but it doesn't change the thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Capuchin
And you know for sure that He's not?Quote:
Originally Posted by Capuchin
I didn't say he was or he wasn't..
And you're saying that what we feel about something doesn't define what it is? I disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by ActionJackson
If you "feel" that a 1968 GTO is a goddess of love and I "feel" that it's a goddess of hate, it will still have the same 4 tires; the same paint job; the same engine; etc. It will still be a 1968 GTO. Your feelings nor my feelings are going to transform it into anything other than what it already is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Capuchin
My argument is:
Our feelings are our only source of information.
People have different feelings.
Therefore: The information that different beings are using is different, the reality is different, the 1968 GTO is different.
Maybe how our feelings shape our reality aren't so different between you and I, Jackson, but surely you can see how someone blind from birth will have a very different view of the world. How do you explain the difference between red and green to someone with red-green colorblindness? How do you explain the difference between a baseball and a tennis ball to a sonar-dependant bat? How does a tetrachromat describe to you and I the extra colors that they see? How do synesthetes describe the way that they see the world? How does an alien describe to you the difference between 2 identical (to you and I) 1968 GTOs, when one is obviously "farble", but the other is quite clearly "borble".
Reality is subjective, it's what we make it, things are different to each of us, because all we have to go on are our FEELINGS.
feelings are still important, how one feels towards another person, to you, that person can be the most important thing in this world, in this mortal existence, while to others, she could just be another random person. how you feel towards things is very important, because it drives you, affects every decision you make, hell, it can even affect who you are. Reality be dammed, all i know is what i see, hear, touch, etc. and feel. what something is is unimportant to me, in comparison to what it is to me.
Everyone on Earth has their own perspective, and if its like that on Earth, imagine the confusion as planets, get to the point they discover each other and begin to interact. Do you think we will see Martians all alike, or they see us as all alike?? If they miss the nuances that make us individuls, its possible we may do the same to them, ie; lumping all christians into the same mold? Or all muslims? What a slippery slope when you don't have all the facts or a complete picture.
To the 1st question (which I have seen before on here) Who knows? God only revealed to us what happened(happens) on this earth. However I believe the Bible about spirits(angels-good & bad) in the heavenlies. And God being the cause & effect of the outcome (or influence ) they have on us-especially through our own prayers.Quote:
Originally Posted by rr man
Otherwise, I think there may only be primitive lifeforms on other galaxies or worlds. There are too many light years to reach us on earth- so only if they have some supersonic spacecraft do I think we will see them in our lifetime on earth.
The 2nd question's answer depends on the 1st. We know that God sent His Son to this earth as a man to die for all mankind's sins. So if there were to be other worlds in the universe with human habitation there, then their world would be like ours- with 2 kinds of sinners. Redeemed or not redeemed.
Supersonic is a bit slow don't you think? Even we can do supersonic (not that supersonic has any meaning in space) :)
You got to have a point... please say you do because this post makes no sense whatsoever.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Open your mind to possibility. There is more truth than ancient mans perspective.Quote:
You got to have a point... please say you do because this post makes no sense whatsoever.
Jackson, surely sometime in your life, you haven't felt very happy, maybe even slightly depressed. Do you think it's true to say that while you're in that kind of mood, the colors of the world are dulled, everything seems closed in and everyone is looking at you.
And sometimes in your life, you just feel so happy, everytrhing is vibrant and colorful and you don't have a care in the world, and every leaf on that pinetree was made somehow from a tiny seed. The world is beautiful.
I certainly feel a difference in my reality when I have different moods. I can't imagine how different each species on this planet sees it.
Apparently, there's a whole lot more truth than modern man's perspective as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
The issue isn't "feelings." The issue is truth vs. fiction. Regardless of how you "feel" the truth doesn't change. I have three blue spruce trees outside my window. Very similar to pines only their needles are shorter and there is a bluish tint to the tree. When I'm feeling sad and bluish, my three little blue spruces are three little blue spruces. When I'm feeling happy and perky, my three little blue spruces are three little blue spruces. When I'm feeling angry and ferocious, my three little blue spruces are three little blue spruces; when I'm hungry and my stomach is growling, my three little blue spruces are three little blue spruces; when I'm feeling romantic and sexy, my three little blue spruces are three little blue spruces; when I'm feeling like Humpdy Dumpdy, my three little blue spruces are three little blue spruces.Quote:
Originally Posted by Capuchin
You say you "can't imagine how different each species on this planet see it." With your imagination I'm sure you will come up with something.
My point is that our feelings are the only truth we know. I don't know how you can think that feelings don't come into it.
How do you know you are reading what I'm typing now? Your eyes sense some difference in the signal they are getting from that part of the retina from the signal they are getting from other parts of the retina, your brain interprets these differences accordingly, letting you see text on the screen. Your brain is affected by your feelings, your reality is what your eyes sense, modified by how your brain thinks it should be modified. Feelings do shape the world.
Would it be fair to say that when you're happy you love looking at your three blue spruce trees, but when you're depressed you couldn't give a about your little spruce trees. In each of these moods the spruce trees are completely different to you. The only things that we know about this world are things that our brains have processed. You're trying to separate the reality of the world from the interpretation of the mind, and you just can't do that.
Finally we agree, and we will learn more as our knowledge expands through investigation, exploration, and discovery.Quote:
Originally Posted by ActionJackson
Not if you have closed your mind to the possibility that Christianity is valid and true. Come on... open your mind to the possibilities, investigate, explore, and discover. Oh, I'm sorry, that only applies to non-Christian exploration, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Hmmmm... this seems to be common is a couple open threads right now lol
I hear what you are saying AJ... and I assure you that I am VERY open-minded to the possibility that Jesus was the Son of God. I was raised Christian and have explored this throughout my life.
AJ, Are YOU open-minded about the possibility that Christianity may not be valid and true??
Wrong! I have a great deal of respect for the wisdom, and way of life, and the teachings of Christ, and those who follow those teachings. Just because I am not a christian, doesn't mean I can't take the life lessons learned through exploration and my own personal investigation of christianity and other religions and apply them to my life. Because I choose my own path, doesn't mean I'm against yours, nor because we may disagree means there is malice or ill will. So relax and enjoy the debate.Quote:
Originally Posted by ActionJackson
Trust me... I enjoy the debate. Most of those who disagree with me are probably pretty decent people. If we met in day to day life, we would probably greet each other with a hello... or maybe we wouldn't. I always try to be friendly with people I meet and they are usually friendly back. As I recall, Talaniman, you sort of jumped on me several threads ago and ridiculed some of my statements so don't be too quick to point the finger. (I know, you don't point the finger cause you would have 4 pointing back)Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
As for your "having respect for....the teachings of Christ" you have honestly shown very little respect. It hasn't been the way that you've treated me that has stirred my ire as much as the way you speak of the Saviour. Does your lack of respect keep me up at night? Not at all. Now thinking of fighting morning, freeway traffic... that sometimes keeps me up.
Sorry not aware of a lack of respect for Christ. I may jump on the dogma and tradition of man rather hard though.
Why do you say "pretty decent people" not agreeing with your teachings make them undecent? I do not understand this statement from a christianQuote:
Originally Posted by ActionJackson
You sound very angry. Maybe you need to remove yourself from here and pray. BlessingsQuote:
Originally Posted by ActionJackson
Which is exactly why you will never get the word you preach through to others. Im sorry for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by ActionJackson
Why not "get outside your box" and stop "jumping on the dogma" of Christianity.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
I gave up a heavy drug and alcohol problem when I was 24. I was able to quit by turning to my last hope, Jesus Christ. He gave me the strength and the tools that I needed to give it up once and for all. I am 47 now. I have a diploma in Bible Law. I've attended numerous denominations to get a feel for the various teachings or slants on those teachings. I had a pretty sizeable prison ministry that lasted for several years. I have read the Bible in its entirety, twice, non-stop and I read some part of it every day. I've had several essays or studies published in Christian magazines that are sent worldwide. I have no idea if I have ever influenced anyone or not. I'm simply trying to be obedient to the Word of God which says that I should preach the gospel. The Holy Ghost will do the rest. To be honest, I can't say I remember who first tried to influence me with the gospel but I know that someone did. I wasn't ready at the time but when I was ready, I seemed to know intuitively where to turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJizzle
I've seen your name about 4 times all within the last few days and you can say that I have "exactly" "never" gotten "thru" to anyone? I am currently looking at the top of my screen. It has the words "Religion" followed by "Christianity." I purposely sought out a forum like this so I could discuss Christianity with other Christians. However, instead of having a gentle conversation with other Christians, I have to put up with gnats and fleas of the Christ-hating community who come in hear for the sole purpose of disrupting our discussions. I don't go into your Wiccan, or witchcraft, or atheist sites and nitpic your every post. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
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