Have a good evening.Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
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Have a good evening.Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
I think that Jesus was subject to the sin nature, or the law of sin and death, but He always resisted, otherwise He would not be "Truly man".Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
If He wasn't, then it would be impossible for us to follow His example.
If He can resist sin as a man, then so can we.
We are all subject to the law of sin, it's whether we choose to obey it or not, that is the question.
We always have a choice, whether we obey our feelings, that is, if we allow our flesh to control our mind,
which takes our will right along with it.
Or if we do what is right, according to our conscience of good and evil, and if you are Born again, prompted or convicted by the Holy Spirit, then we will not follow the law of sin and death.
We will sow to the spirit, not the flesh.
Romans 8:3
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man.
There's other scriptures that show this as well, but my computer won't search at the moment.
Cheers.:)
Water is definitely a part of it, but being Born again is more than being sprinkled as a baby.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
You have to make a decision to turn from sin and towards God, this is what "repent" means.
Then to confess that you are a sinner and need a Savior, to confess that Jesus is the Son of God and that He died for your sins, then you will be saved.
Romans 10
8
But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we preach),
9
for, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10
For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved.
11
For the scripture says, "No one who believes in him will be put to shame."
12
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, enriching all who call upon him.
13
For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
That is not the end of the story though, in order to do this, you must firstly, "make a decision".
A baby cannot,"make a decision", neither can they confess their sin, or even confess that Jesus died for their sin and rose again on the third day.
It must be an adult decision, "The answer of a good conscience" as Peter puts it in 1 Peter.
Then you must ask God to fill you with the Holy Spirit, for if your son asks you for bread, you will not give him a stone, even so, if you ask the Father for the Holy Spirit, then you will receive it.
Luke 11
9"So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
10For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
11"Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead?
12Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion?
13If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"
When you do, it will be accompanied by signs, one of which is speaking in an unknown tongue, or "the tongues of angels" as Paul calls it in 1 Corinthians 14.
In Acts 2:38-39,
Peter states
38
Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, 7 every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.
39
For the promise is made to you and to your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call."
What happened when they received the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, (I might add here, that Mary also needed the Holy Spirit, as she was also in the Upper room),
they spoke in tongues.
When Simon the sorcerer saw the Holy Spirit was given by the laying on of hands, he wanted this power also. (Acts 8)
What did he see, babies getting sprinkled, I think that he was amazed at the miraculous signs that he saw.
What were these signs.
In Acts 10, Cornelius received the word of God and believed, the Holy Ghost fell on him and he spoke in tongues.
In Chapter 11, Peter says,
15
As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them as it had upon us at the beginning,
16
and I remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said, 'John baptized with water but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'
17
If then God gave them the same gift he gave to us when we came to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to be able to hinder God?"
18
When they heard this, they stopped objecting and glorified God, saying, "God has then granted life-giving repentance to the Gentiles too."
In Acts 19, there were some new believers that Paul met,
1 While Apollos was in Corinth, Paul traveled through the interior of the country and came (down) to Ephesus where he found some disciples.
2
He said to them, "Did you receive the holy Spirit when you became believers?" They answered him, "We have never even heard that there is a holy Spirit."
3
He said, "How were you baptized?" They replied, "With the baptism of John."
4
Paul then said, "John baptized with a baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, in Jesus."
5
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6
And when Paul laid (his) hands on them, the holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.
7
Altogether there were about twelve men.
This is a sign that can be verified not only in the Bible, but by many thousands today.
I am not saying that it is the only sign, but if you don't have this gift, then I would wonder as to the validity of your supposed "Born again " experience.
You did have an experience didn't you?
If you obey God and get baptized by full immersion, that is "Buried in Baptism" (Romans 6) and ask, in faith, to receive the Holy Spirit, then just submit your life, (this includes your tongue!) and begin to praise Him, fully expecting to speak in tongues, then you will.
However, you don't have to be baptized first, to receive the Holy Spirit , as was my experience, but you still need to obey God and get baptized.
Not because I or anybody else tells you to, but because you believe that is is God's will that you do this.
A couple of examples,
John 1
11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
Being Born again, is not something that we can do, our spirit is made alive unto God, when we are immersed into the Holy Spirit.
The Baptism of Jesus
13Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14But John tried to deter him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?"
15Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented.
16As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. 17And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."
If Jesus needed to get baptized by full immersion, then we should follow his example, to fulfil all righteousness.
29(All the people, even the tax collectors, when they heard Jesus' words, acknowledged that God's way was right, because they had been baptized by John. 30But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God's purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.)
Even in Jesus day, the religious leaders rejected the way and plan of God in order to preserve their own religious ideas!
Do you reject it today?
Acts 22
14"Then he said: 'The God of our fathers has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15You will be his witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.'
Even as Jesus appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus, His commandment was to be baptized and wash his sins away, exactly the experience that I had when I was obedient to God's word.
I didn't expect anything to happen, I just thought that I would go under. Get wet and get out!
But as soon as my head broke out of that water, I felt clean immediately.
I knew that all my sins were washed away, my desire for alcohol, drugs and illegitimate sex, were gone immediately.
Even the desire for cigarettes was taken away!
I couldn't even stay in the same room as some-one swearing, anymore, for at least 6 months afterwards!
It was like some-one hitting my spirit with a stick when they swore!
Maybe you will accept something less, but that is your choice, and when you stand before God, then you will have to explain why you rejected His way for your own way.
My greatest desire for you, is that you come into the knowledge of the truth, not by my argument, but by the submitting of yourself to the revealed will of God, so that God will do His part in the promise,
39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."
And to let Jesus have the last word on this, from Mark 16
15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.
16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;
18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."
Peace.:)
He was subject to temptation, but the sin nature refers to the desire to sin inherited through the generations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Wilson
Peter, I think you got this right, and I needed to hear it. As far as the tongues, and the baptism, I think that's right too, but for me right now, I'm not going to do that, because I'm having enough trouble living in god's spirit, and listening to him. If he tells me that, then I'll probably end up doing it. The reason why I accept about the tongues, is because I've read books that have explained what you did in the post of yours above, using the same scriptures. But I will tell you, that god will not leave me where I am because I haven't been immersed, or speak with tongues. These things are physical, and in order not to sin, I need god's spirit, which is spiritual. Some things in the bible are symbolic and figurative, just like the parables. When jesus washed the apostles' feet, it was a symbol that we indeed needed cleansing by god. We aren't going around washing peoples' feet, just because jesus did. We're the ones in need of cleansing. Also, wouldn't you agree that immersion is the picture of jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, and that our sinful nature must go through the same process? And, as far as speaking in tongues, out of our inner parts, flow the rivers of living waters, through the holy spirit, that is a fountain of eternal life, of which we drink. So you can see how I have the thinking, that not all is literal when it comes to doing physical things in the bible. I take this stance, because I look at how it helps me develop spiritually, with the living god inside, telling me what to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Wilson
peter, what role does the holy spirit play in our choice to deny sin? I ask, because when I realize I really cannot stop sinning, I wonder if god's power is helping me. If you understand the operation of this power, please reply. I know that the spirit shows me my sin that I cannot discover myself, but I wonder if the spirit helps me to overcome even the temptation, by some action? You said your desire to quit certain things stopped altogether. What about us, who still have the desire? Do we continually have to deny the temptation, or is there help to overcome completely?Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Wilson
That's an interesting opinion... but I'm wondering then, what did 2 Cor 5:21 mean?Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Wilson
"Him, who knew no sin, he hath made sin for us, that we might be made the justice of God in him." (DR)
I'm just confused by the notion that it would even be possible for God incarnate to sin... but that he simply resisted.
Please expand on this.
God bless..
2Cr 5:21 Him who knew no sin he made [to be] sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him. ASVQuote:
Originally Posted by ScottRC
this is making jesus like a scapegoat, where he took our punishment for sin upon himself. He was a spotless lamb, because he did not sin, so he was an acceptable sacrifice. He was also human, like us, taking in his flesh the punishment for sin. This is why I agree with peter, because our flesh is weak. Jesus said that the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.
Ummm... that's what He did (Died for our sins), right?Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
Not sure what you are objecting to.
A sacrifice is meant to atone for sins... so I'm still confused as to your intitial comment.Quote:
he was a spotless lamb, because he did not sin, so he was an acceptable sacrifice.
Now I'm really confused... he took the punishment for sin, but you object to making him out to be a "scapegoat" where he took the punishment for sin.... :confused:Quote:
he was also human, like us, taking in his flesh the punishment for sin.
I'm not making a judgement, just trying to understand why you two believe this...Quote:
this is why I agree with peter, because our flesh is weak. Jesus said that the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.
I don't expect you to accept my reasons for rejecting this notion (the fifth ecumenical council, at Constantinople in 553) but I'm hoping you can explain your views.
Thanks for your helping me understand your faith!
lol, no, I'm supporting the scripture we posted... lol... you misunderstand, because I'm not saying it's bad that he was a scapegoat. A scapegoat was, in the old testament, a goat they used as a symbol for a sacrifice of sin. So jesus was a scapegoat, symbolically.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottRC
Lev 16:8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.
Lev 16:9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him [for] a sin offering.
Lev 16:10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, [and] to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
I'm saying that the blame (scapegoat) fell on jesus, for all of us.
Ok... but I'm hoping that you'll comment on my earlier post:Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
I'm just confused by the notion that it would even be possible for God incarnate to sin... but that he simply resisted.
How do you think it is possible for God to sin?
Matthew 3
13Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14But John forbade him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Matthew 4
1Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. 2And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. 3And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. 5Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
6And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
8Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
The devil did have the power to give Jesus the kingdoms of the world, because after Adam sinned satan became god of this world. It would not have been a temptation if this were not so. Jesus would have known that.
11Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.
Resist the devil and he will flee from you…. That is how you stop sin in your life. The devil is the tempter…we have a choice to follow him or to follow Jesus and say, It is written, Thou shalt not murder…steal…lie…covet…commit adultery… whatever it is that you are tempted to do, there is a Scripture for it. Then draw near to God and He will draw near to you.
Whatever is in your heart will come out your mouth. Feast on the Word of God and it will fill your heart and you will be prepared for every trick of the devil.
The Holy Spirit baptized us with Jesus when we accepted Jesus as Lord, born-again. Jesus will baptize us with the Holy Spirit, evidence of speaking in tongues. These are two separate acts. It is our spirit, sometimes translated heart, that is born-again. Our mind which is our will and emotions must be renewed by the Word of God.
Abraham was under grace, not under law. Abraham was a believer with faith, who loved and obeyed God, and needed no Law. Jesus Christ the promised Seed of Abraham was born and died under the curse of the Law (Deuteronomy 21:23; Galatians 3:13). Being made a curse for us, His death and resurrection redeemed us from the curse of the Law, that the blessing of Abraham might come on we Gentiles through Jesus Christ; so we might receive the promise of the Spirit or new birth through faith.
Every Christian was judged and condemned, and has already paid for his sins in Christ on Calvary since we are each Attributes in the Logos of God. Then God raised Christ for our justification so we can never again come into condemnation. We were glorified and made to sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus (Romans 4:13-25; 8:28-30; I Corinthians 5:13-21).
We are sons and daughters of Abraham, gentiles, not Jews; we were never under the law. We are now, because of Mercy, under Grace. We are the wild olive branches that were grafted in for a season…the Jews are the natural branches.
I have been accused of writing my posts too long. I am sorry it this is too long.
You're saying that if you have the scripture, then you can resist the devil, and stop sinning? What would happen if you could stop sinning altogether like jesus did? Why didn't abraham need scripture, that wasn't written yet? Are we really sitting in heavenly places right now? I'm asking these, because right now, I have the holy spirit, and I've never spoke in tongues. But I have had what I believe god, speak to me. Although it wasn't a voice, it was a knowing. Once, when I was a teen, he let me know that we were created for his good pleasure. Now, as an adult, that the kingdom is what is important in a person's life. I didn't understand that, but I'm beginning to. Also, I have thought things only to myself, but they have come to pass, and I believe god could read my mind, cause I didn't tell anyone. I believe the more I listen to him, the more I'll hear. He's made some passages of scripture quite easy to understand. Again, it's a knowing, as if I've just discovered something. Not because I was thinking about it so much, but it comes from out of nowhere. However, I think the bible certainly does point us in the right direction, toward finding out what his personality is, and what we should be doing. So I rely on both bible and word, but the living word takes precedence, and the bible should certainly support him. One example:
Mar 2:23 And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.
Mar 2:24 And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?
Mar 2:25 And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?
Mar 2:26 How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?
Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
With what power did jesus do his miracles? With the spirit of holiness, or god's spirit. With what power do we stop sinning? The same spirit of holiness. If we didn't need it, jesus wouldn't have asked the father to send it. Jesus had flesh like us, and he went through the same temptations. We know how we feel when tempted. Did he feel any different? When they nailed him, did he feel pain? So if we are able to sin, then why wasn't jesus? Were the temptations not really dangerous? Was it just a show, especially when he was really hungry and weak, to show us that he's god, and can tie one hand behind his back, and temptation just bounces off? I know he quoted scripture. But scripture will not keep you from sinning, but are a focus for your mind. It's your internal mind and heart that will stop you from sinning. But this is only strengthened over time. I'm not sure how jesus conditioned his spirit, or what took place when he was growing up, but he was impervious to temptation, because of his will to obey god. Not because he couldn't sin.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottRC
Okey dokey... thanks for explaining your beliefs.Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
Until I hear something that makes me believe different. How do you believe jesus overcame temptation?Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottRC
I believe Jesus Christ was God incarnate... and overcame temptation because of his divine power.Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
The historical Christian beliefs contend that Jesus was truly 100% God and 100% man... like us in all things EXCEPT for sin... and we believe God COULD NOT sin... but thanks again for your explanation.
Then what need had he of temptation?Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottRC
To make my point more clear: if jesus was god, then temptation would have had no effect on him. However, since jesus was man, his flesh was working against him, just as it is in us... he had to deal with the physical body. So what does it mean for him to be all god and all man, when temptation arises?
Yes we can!! Amen!Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
Yell tell me... I never said he had a "need" of temptation.Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
We just have different understanding of what "divine" means and on the nature of Christ.Quote:
to make my point more clear: if jesus was god, then temptation would have had no effect on him. However, since jesus was man, his flesh was working against him, just as it is in us... he had to deal with the physical body. So what does it mean for him to be all god and all man, when temptation arises?
1 Peter 3 21 Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Scripture says it does.
Sincerely,
De Maria
None.Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
Two things.
First thing. As someone on this forum so effectively said in another thread, "There is temptation and there is temptation."
What is the difference?
Well, lets take a nice juicy slice of cantaloupe for example. I imagine that sounds pretty tempting to many folks. BUT NOT FOR ME. I hate cantaloupe.
So, if someone TEMPTS me with cantaloupe. I'm not the least bit tempted.
Understand?
So, although Satan tempted Jesus, Jesus wasn't tempted.
Second. Satan tempted Jesus so that Jesus could overcome the temptation and give us a model to follow. Jesus is our model:
Matthew 8 22 But Jesus said to him: Follow me, and let the dead bury their dead.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Maybe to you, taken out of context. Let's look at the passage in contextQuote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
1 Peter 3:18-22
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to
God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went
and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the
Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.
NKJV
We see three things discussed here:
1) Noah's Ark and its role in saving people through the flood
2) Water baptism
3) The gospel and the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
This passage relates these three items by showing how they relate. First Peter speaks the death of Christ on the cross, setting the focus for the passage. As a result of this passage, we know that the focus of the verses that follow are regarding the death of Christ on the cross for our sins.
This death for our sins is then compared, to the flood, with the flood discussed as a symbolic “type” or comparison to salvation which come through the cross of Christ. Then we are told that there is an anti-type, baptism. I often hear the argument that an “anti-type” is the opposite of a type, or as one person recently said, an anti-type being the opposite of a type is “reality”. Unfortunately that argument is not “reality” because in Greek and similar languages, “anti-” often does not mean “opposite” as we understand it in English, but rather means a replacement or a contrast. Thus when we are told about one type, and then we are told that there is an anti-type, what we see here is a contrasting type of the death on the cross.
an·ti·type n.
- One that is foreshadowed by or identified with an earlier symbol or type, such as a figure in the New Testament who has a counterpart in the Old Testament.
- An opposite or contrasting type.
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin
Company. All rights reserved.
This understanding also agrees with what Paul said in Romans 6 where he identifies baptism as a “likeness” or symbolic of the death and resurrection on the cross:
Rom 6:3-7
3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized
into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just
as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death,
certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old
man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should
no longer be slaves of sin.
NKJV
In discussions with proponents of baptismal regeneration, they will often just read out
Romans 6:3 and then stop before you get to the verse which describes baptism as a “likeness” of the death and resurrection of Christ. So we find that Romans 6 and 1 Peter 3 are telling us the same thing – baptism is symbolic.
Now with that in mind, let's look at the verse which you referenced:
1 Peter 3:21
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh,
NKJV
The contrasting types, the ark, which saved Noah and family through the water, and baptism which saves us in the water - as a type. A "type" simply means symbolic, and thus is symbolic of the death and resurrection of Christ through we we are in fact saved.
Now, let's look at the wider context:
1 Peter 3:18
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to
NKJV
Salvation came by Christ suffering on the cross for our sins and then we are made alive by the Spirit. Scripture says that there is one baptism, and it is not a baptism that replaces the blood with water, or replaces the spirit with water, but it is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Note that by stating that it is water baptism that is essential, what we are in effect being told is that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is not essential, and that they choose water to replace the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Consider the implications.
1 Peter 3:21
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.
NKJV
Note that it is water that removes the filth of the flesh, but the water is symbolic of the salvation on the cross. Also note that the substances which cleanses, is the answer of a good conscience towards God. We see a similar reference in Hebrews 9
This passage is very clear regarding the symbolic nature of the various rituals. The reference here to ritual washings is the same word used elsewhere in the New Testament
Where it is translated as “baptism”.
Heb 9:11-15
11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more
perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood
of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all,
having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of
a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 1 4 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this
reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
NKJV
We see confirmation here that it is not the water that cleanses, but the blood of Christ sacrificed on the cross.
Heb 4:15-16Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
NKJV
De maria, is it possible for us to overcome temptation like jesus did? If yes, then why do we need jesus? Can't we just say no?
It depends upon whether you are saved. As Paul said, before you are saved, you have the sin nature and are slaves to sin. After you are saved and have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, you have been freed from slavery to sin. It does not mean that we don't slip from time to time, but we are no longer enslaved to sin.Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
Rom 6:4-14
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
NKJV
OK, I'll just say that I need the holy spirit to stop sinning, because he shows me my sin. If I wasn't shown where I'm sinning, I wouldn't know what not to do. I think this is the problem today: people have no idea what sin is, so they go around with a cloud of guilt for not doing something. And/or someone tells them what they're doing wrong, as if they know what god wants. Preachers say to stop sinning, but they provide no 'how', or no direction to turn to stop. Who knows what god wants, except god himself. So my point is that we can only stop sinning through the work of the holy spirit in us. Jesus sent his spirit, and he had a reason for doing so.
You only gave the "if yes" option. Did you not consider "if no"?Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
The answer is no.
All is grace. We can't overcome temptation without the Grace of God. The grace of God flows to us through Jesus sacrifice on the Cross.
You might ask, "what about the Jews?" Jesus had not yet been sacrificed. How could they overcome temptation if Jesus did not yet die on the Cross?
It is simple. Jesus sacrifice transcends time and space. It is an eternal sacrifice which Jesus offers in heaven. That is why the Catholic Church does not sacrifice Jesus again and again in the Mass as many anti-Catholics allege. The eternal sacrifice of Jesus happened only once but is applied to all human beings who accept God's love throughout human history.
617 The Council of Trent emphasizes the unique character of Christ's sacrifice as "the source of eternal salvation" and teaches that "his most holy Passion on the wood of the cross merited justification for us." And the Church venerates his cross as she sings: "Hail, O Cross, our only hope."
Our participation in Christ's sacrifice
618 The cross is the unique sacrifice of Christ, the "one mediator between God and men".452 But because in his incarnate divine person he has in some way united himself to every man, "the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the paschal mystery" is offered to all men.453 He calls his disciples to "take up [their] cross and follow [him]",454 for "Christ also suffered for [us], leaving [us] an example so that [we] should follow in his steps."455 In fact Jesus desires to associate with his redeeming sacrifice those who were to be its first beneficiaries.456 This is achieved supremely in the case of his mother, who was associated more intimately than any other person in the mystery of his redemptive suffering.457
Apart from the cross there is no other ladder by which we may get to heaven.458
Galatians 6 14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ; by whom the world is crucified to me, and I to the world.
Sincerely,
De Maria
What is that grace? Is it just god saying, 'hey, I forgive you. Now go stop sinning.'? Is not jesus' work ongoing? Why would he send his spirit to us, unless that spirit had something in us to accomplish? We are not left as orphans, to stop sinning on our own. Jesus came to set the captives free, and we are slaves to sin, if we sin, which we do at times. The holy spirit is the purifyer of our spirit. This is spiritual baptism, cause we start to become transformed. We are reborn, to begin to spiritually mature. The seed for rebirth, is the word of god, which is not the bible or scriptures. It's god's word, through the holy spirit. If it happens to sound like the bible, at least it's god repeating himself. And to what end? Aren't we supposed to enter the kingdom of god at some time? When does this happen? Perhaps when we have put on the robes of righteousness, and are purified by jesus? Then we're free from sin.Quote:
Originally Posted by ?
Allege? Who is it that you claim is the sacrifice in every mass?Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
It is the Blood of Jesus, that washes away our sin; not water. Water has been here since the world began, if water was all that was needed why did Jesus have to die on the Cross for the sins of the whole world. If water was all that was needed everyone would be saved, for at one time or another we have all been in water.
Baptism is a 'symbol' of His death and resurrection, a public display that one has accepted the work of the cross, the sacrifice of the Lamb and has made Jesus the Lord of their lives.
Jesus was indeed tempted, and we can resist sin the way He did.
He said 'take no thought saying…' sin first comes as a thought; we can cancel that thought with the word of God. You cannot think one thing while saying another. Try it. You cannot do it. I do not know if the devil spoke to Jesus in an audible voice or not, but the way the devil speaks to us is in our thought life.
God can also speak to us in our thought life, also in an audible voice or though his word or other people. God does know our thoughts and sometimes thoughts can be prayers.
Fundamentalists (those who take the Bible literally) would point out that born again would mean being born of the spirit. (John 3:5)
How else is one to take the Word of God? It is our spirit that is born again; the old man passes away…behold all things become new again.
Church traditions: the traditions of man make the Word of God of no effect. Sorry I do not remember the chapter and verse now…perhaps someone could provide.
Originally Posted by De Maria
So, although Satan tempted Jesus, Jesus wasn't tempted.
How can you tempt someone and they not be tempted? That is what it means to tempt someone. Jesus came in the flesh; he was a man. He was the Word made flesh. God sent His Word and healed them.
Well, to be clear, the Church teaches that it is by BOTH means that one can be justified/born again:Quote:
Originally Posted by saintjoan
"The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" and through Baptism.. "
(CCC #1987)
Which church?Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottRC
I'm speaking of the Catholic Church in this case... sorry I wasn't clear on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by tsila1777
It would be best to be clear that that is only the teaching of your denomionation to avoid mis-understandings.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottRC
The eternal sacrifice is Jesus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Apocalypse 5 6 And I saw: and behold in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the ancients, a Lamb standing as it were slain, having seven horns and seven eyes: which are the seven Spirits of God, sent forth into all the earth.
Or was the Lamb of God slain over and over again in heaven?
Sincerely,
De Maria
Excellent! You two are great! I think an interplay amongst Catholics would be great on this forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottRC
You are correct Scott, it does take both. But, for instance, in the case of an infant, whose faith are we talking about?
And in the case of a convert, whose faith are we speaking of at Baptism?
Sincerely,
De Maria
That's awesome. I can honestly say that I never thought about it that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by saintjoan
That is why Scripture also says:
1 Peter 3 21 Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also:
And explains why Scripture also says:
Mark 16 16 He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.
In other words, faith alone does not save you:
James 2 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without works; and I will show thee, by works, my faith.
In other words, a person who claims to believe but is not baptized really doesn't believe. So it is the work of baptism which justifies that man:
James 2 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?
Wonderful! What source are you referring to?Quote:
The waters of Baptism put to death the old person of sin and gave birth to the new person in Christ. How does a Person become a Catholic. Page 5
The sprinkling with water, which may replace the penitenial rite, reminds us of how we accepted the Lord at Baptism, turning from sin. Thirty Questions about the Mass. Page 16
At baptism I became your child robed in the white gown of your love and friendship and began the adventure of learning about and loving you. Mini-meditations for Morning Prayer, page 21
Sincerely,
De Maria
Correct. Water is the sign of what is happening in our soul.Quote:
Originally Posted by tsila1777
694 Water. The symbolism of water signifies the Holy Spirit's action in Baptism, since after the invocation of the Holy Spirit it becomes the efficacious sacramental sign of new birth: just as the gestation of our first birth took place in water, so the water of Baptism truly signifies that our birth into the divine life is given to us in the Holy Spirit. As "by one Spirit we were all baptized," so we are also "made to drink of one Spirit." Thus the Spirit is also personally the living water welling up from Christ crucified as its source and welling up in us to eternal life.
Who said that "water was all that was needed"? First, Jesus sanctified the water by permitting Himself to be baptized:Quote:
Water has been here since the world began, if water was all that was needed why did Jesus have to die on the Cross for the sins of the whole world. If water was all that was needed everyone would be saved, for at one time or another we have all been in water.
Matt 3 14 But John stayed him, saying: I ought to be baptized by thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering, said to him: Suffer it to be so now. For so it becometh us to fulfill all justice. Then he suffered him.
16 And Jesus being baptized, forthwith came out of the water: and lo, the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him. 17 And behold a voice from heaven, saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Then Jesus explained that without being born again of water and spirit, one could not enter the Kingdom of Heaven:
John 3 5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
And then Jesus was Crucified for our sins and from His side poured out the water and blood which would wash us of our sins:
John 19 34 But one of the soldiers with a spear opened his side, and immediately there came out blood and water.
True. But it is an effective symbol which accomplishes what it symbolizes. First, we are born again into the family of God. In other words, we become brothers in Christ. Sons of the Father:Quote:
Baptism is a 'symbol' of His death and resurrection, a public display that one has accepted the work of the cross, the sacrifice of the Lamb and has made Jesus the Lord of their lives.
Hebrews 12 8 But if you be without chastisement, whereof all are made partakers, then are you bastards, and not sons.
In addition, the water symbolizes the washing of the dirt from our skin as the Holy Spirit is washing the sin from our souls:
Acts Of Apostles 22 16 And now why tarriest thou? Rise up, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, invoking his name.
So, the water symbolizes for our eyes, the Spiritual truths with which we are blessed in our souls.
Actually, you can. I've done it before. Its called a Freudian slip. When out of your mouth comes what you really believe rather than what you intend to say.Quote:
Jesus was indeed tempted, and we can resist sin the way He did.
He said ‘take no thought saying…’ sin first comes as a thought; we can cancel that thought with the word of God. You cannot think one thing while saying another. Try it. You cannot do it. I do not know if the devil spoke to Jesus in an audible voice or not, but the way the devil speaks to us is in our thought life.
But I think the point you are trying to make is that if you keep your mind on God you will not as easily be tempted. That is true. But we don't have to remember Scripture for that result. We pray. The Rosary is an excellent meditation on the life of Christ which keeps one anchored to God.
Excellent! I said that above. And you've confirmed it.Quote:
God can also speak to us in our thought life, also in an audible voice or though his word or other people. God does know our thoughts and sometimes thoughts can be prayers.
Correct. We certainly don't go back in our mom's womb and come back out physically.Quote:
Fundamentalists (those who take the Bible literally) would point out that born again would mean being born of the spirit. (John 3:5)
How else is one to take the Word of God? It is our spirit that is born again; the old man passes away…behold all things become new again.
No need. That is true. But Scripture also says:Quote:
Church traditions: the traditions of man make the Word of God of no effect. Sorry I do not remember the chapter and verse now…perhaps someone could provide.
2 Thessalonians 2 14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.
Obviously then, some Traditions are of God and do not make the Word of God of no effect. In fact, these Traditions, since they are of God, are actually the Word of God.
1 Thessalonians 2 13 Therefore, we also give thanks to God without ceasing: because, that when you had received of us the word of the hearing of God, you received it not as the word of men, but (as it is indeed) the word of God, who worketh in you that have believed.
As I said before. I don't like cantaloupe. So, if you tempt me with cantaloupe, I won't be very tempted.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
So, although Satan tempted Jesus, Jesus wasn't tempted.
How can you tempt someone and they not be tempted? That is what it means to tempt someone. Jesus came in the flesh; he was a man. He was the Word made flesh. God sent His Word and healed them.
On the other hand, I love chocolate. But I'm borderline diabetic. So I have to watch my sweets. However, if you tempt me with chocolate, it is very likely I will be overcome by temptation.
Now, Jesus is God and perfect man. So when Satan tempted Him to commit sin, it was as though someone were tempting me with cantaloupe.
Sincerely,
De Maria
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