Psalm 69:5
O God, You know my foolishness;And my sins are not hidden from You.
Psalm 69:4-6 (in Context) Psalm 69 (Whole Chapter)
1 Corinthians 1:18
[ Christ the Power and Wisdom of God ] For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 1:17-19 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 1 (Whole Chapter)
1 Corinthians 1:21
For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
1 Corinthians 1:20-22 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 1 (Whole Chapter)
1 Corinthians 1:25
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1 Corinthians 1:24-26 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 1 (Whole Chapter)
1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 2:13-15 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 2 (Whole Chapter)
1 Corinthians 3:19
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their own craftiness”;
1 Corinthians 3:18-20 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 3 (Whole Chapter)


This is why it's hard to understand a believer's mind when you are not one. God says you can't unless you believe.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

So if god tells someone to fly a plane into a skyscraper, do you think they should go ahead and do it? What if god told YOU to do that! Would you?

I understand these sound like sarcastic questions, but I really don't mean them to be. Once you realize that there really are people in this world who think god talks to them and tells them to do such vile acts, it's well... Sobering to say the least.

So is it safe to say (in your case), that you would obey god if he directed you in a peaceful way, but would reject him if he were to direct you to commit an act of violence?

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If this is doubled I apologize I had trouble submitting the first answer.

If what you perceive God to be saying to you does not line up with the teachings of the Bible what you hear is NOT the voice of God. Nowhere in the Bible that I read does it teach that we should go out and commit suicide in an attempt to murder others.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

I'll be up front and admit I'm an atheist.

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I was an atheist from the age of 13 to the age of 27 (approximately, its not like I kept a diary or anything)..

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But I'm genuinely curious... What's a typical prayer session like for you?

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That is not a simple question. But let me give you the metaphor which is provided by Scripture:

Ephesians 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall be two in one flesh. 32 This is a great sacrament; but I speak in Christ and in the church.

Scripture likens the love of one's wife to the love one has for God. Is it always easy to love your wife?

For me, thanks be to God, most times, it is easy to love my wife. But sometimes, it isn't.

In the same way, sometimes, I pray with my heart and soul. But sometimes I pray to fulfill my duty to God.

I hope that answers your question.

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What do you pray for?

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That God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven. And for the perseverance to love Him all the days of my life.

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What do you say to God?

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What ever I comes to mind. Sometimes praise and love overflow my heart and that is all that I can think of saying. But at other times I complain about the way He is running my life.

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Has God ever said anything to you (not being sarcastic, just an honest question)?

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Yes.

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Have any of your prayers been answered?

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Yes.

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And if so, what makes you think it was God that answered and not some random chance event?

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I no longer believe in random chance events.

[quote]Again, I'm curious what it's like for people who actually believe they are talking to an invisible god. With all sincerity, I imagine it can be very theraputic. I meditate and wonder if prayer is anything like that?[/QUOTE

Well, yes and no. When I was atheist I used to practice a little bit of yoga and self hyptnosis to relax.

Prayer is like that usually. But when I'm "on fire", its more like someone takes my heart in their hand and squeezes it. Sometimes it is literally painful. It feels as though my heart is about to burst. But it isn't unpleasant.

I guess you might ask, "are you sure you aren't having a heart attack?"

And I'd have to answer, "no". But that isn't the usual symptom of a heartattack. As I understand it, usually, the left arm aches and the person turns a pale color. And then of course the person collapses. . None of those things have ever happened to me. And my doctor says I'm perfectly healthy. So, as far as I can see, its got something to do with the prayer, cause that's the only time it happens..

I hope that answers your question,

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by chaplain john

Nowhere in the Bible that I read does it teach that we should go out and commit suicide in an attempt to murder others.

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No, but perhaps another person's book says it's OK. Now if you're saying it's OK to believe things on unfounded evidence, how then do you deny someone of another faith this same right? You can't very well label him as irrational when your standards for belief are no different than his.

Btw- Are you really a chaplain who knows something about this (on a professional level)? If so, I think it's great that you post here. I don't know anyone very knowledgeable that I can ask questions to.

When you talk about our perception not lining up with the teachings in the bible... What about biblical passages which if taken literally, would lead to what we now would consider immoral acts? Such as:

Isn't there a passage which states that if a man finds on his wedding night that the woman he is about to marry is not a virgin, he must stone her to death on her father's doorstep?

Doesn't the bible imply that if a kid disobeys his parents, it's OK to kill him?

Or that if you catch somebody working on the Sabbath day, they should be put to death?

What about the condoning of slavery in the bible? The abuse of women? Etc...

I realize reasonable people don't take these things seriously, but all these things are in the bible, are they not? So what if my perception was to take this literally and I went out and killed someone for working on the Sabbath? Would you conisder me wrong to have done so?

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

No, but perhaps another person's book says it's ok. Now if you're saying it's ok to believe things on unfounded evidence, how do you deny him the right to do the same? You can't very well label him as irrational when your standards for belief are no different than his.

Btw- Are you really a chaplain who knows something about this (on a professional level)? If so, I think it's great that you post here. I don't know anyone very knowledgable that I can ask questions to.

When you talk about our perception not lining up with the teachings in the bible... What about biblical passages which if taken literally, would lead to what we now would consider immoral acts? Such as:

Isn't there a passage which states that if a man finds on his wedding night that the woman he is about to marry is not a virgin, he must stone her to death on her father's doorstep?

Doesn't the bible imply that if a kid disobeys his parents, it's ok to kill him?

Or that if you catch somebody working on the Sabbath day, they should be put to death?

What about the condoning of slavery in the bible? The abuse of women? Etc...

I realize reasonable people don't take these things seriously, but all these things are in the bible, are they not? So what if my perception was to take this literally and I went out and killed someone for working on the Sabbath? Would you conisder me wrong to have done so?

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These things you are referring to are in the Old Testament, the old covenant. Jesus came and made a New Covenant with His people.

He gave us two commandments:
Matthew 22:37-39 (New King James Version)
37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[b]

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Originally Posted by savedsinner7

God is perfect and we are not. We cannot attempt to understand Him by human reasonings

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But you DO claim to understand Him! Everyone here has made many claims about God and His goodness. It's only when something doesn't make sense and defies the essence of logic, that people fall back on "We cannot attempt to understand Him". Can you really not see that?

I guess I've learned all that I'm going to learn about this. I don't want to feel that I'm degrading you guys, or that I'm in opposition. I have sincere questions that I guess cannot be answered. It's frustrating.

If you were to say that God does not intervene, we'd be done with this by now. That would explain the atrocities and suffering in the world. But when you say He intervenes sometimes, but not others, this presents a very huge problem, which you deal with by simply ignoring it. The differenc between us is I cannot ignore it.

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Originally Posted by savedsinner7

These things you are referring to are in the Old Testament, the old covenant. Jesus came and made a New Covenant with His people.

He gave us two commandments:
Matthew 22:37-39 (New King James Version)
37 Jesus said to him, “ 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'[a] 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'[b]

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Thank you for your response -

I can certainly agree that the New Testament is gentler and more in accordance with our 21st century values than the OT. But still...

The Lord that Jesus asks us to love with all our heart, is the very same Lord who espoused such barbaric propositions in the OT. It's the same God who had Abraham come within seconds of killing his son presumably for no other reason than His own amusement (imagine the sheer terror that went through this child's mind as he watched his father prepare to kill him).

So if you're saying we can just throw the OT out, or dismiss it as ancient man's misinterpretation of God, I'll accept that. But I don't think that's what you're saying, are you?

And the NT does present one claim which is perhaps more barbaric than anything the OT has to offer (if that's possible). The concept of hell... Can there be any crueler concept than that of sending someone to a place where they suffer, and burn, and gnash their teeth in agony forever and ever until the end of time?

I'm a parent and I can't think of a single act of disobedience my children could commit that would make me wish such an unmitigated horror upon them. Yet, this loving God is willing to carry out such a sentence for the mere crime of apostasy? I say "mere crime", because He has provided us with the power of logic, yet has not provided a single shred of evidence that He actually exists. And if He does exist, He has allowed hundreds of other religions to flourish without any logical means of determining the "right" one, except for having the sheerest of luck to be born into the right family or geographical location on earth. Do you deny that had you been born in Pakistan to Muslim parents you wouldn't be worshipping Allah instead of the Judao-Christian God? So if God exists, He employs trickery in the cruelest sense.

So it turns out that the NT even with all its gentler teachings might just be more barbaric than anything in the OT with the introduction of hell.

Seriously... I know my comments may seem to have the purpose of being argumentative and I'm sure you'll lose patience with me at some point. But as I already stated, I used to be a Christian and these are just some of the things that led me to becoming an atheist. But I'm open minded. I'm throwing my issues on the table to see how better Christians respond. I want to know how you make sense of these things where I could not. I want to know if I may ever be able to make sense of them and return to faith. Thanks again.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

But you DO claim to understand Him! Everyone here has made many claims about God and His goodness. It's only when something doesn't make sense and defies the essence of logic, that people fall back on "We cannot attempt to understand Him". Can you really not see that?

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No one here has claimed to completely understand God. We are to try to think as God would, live as God would, love as God would, etc. When we read our Bibles, we attend church and other Bible studies, we pray and talk with God, we ask for understanding, and with all of this we learn more about God, and we understand more about God. But never did we claim, nor do we think we can possibly completely understand all there is to understand. Not with this imperfect mind anyway. God is infinite. We, with these finite minds, are limited to what we can understand. But we believe that God gives us what we need to know if we search for it in spirit and meaningfully.

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Originally Posted by MoonlitWaves

No one here has claimed to completely understand God.

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But c'mon Tara, you ARE claiming to know at least enough about Him to reach certain conclusions. As I said before...

If you didn't proclaim divine intervention in the first place, I could've left this alone a long time ago. But when someone claims it was God who saved their child, or made their life better in some way, then they should be held accountable for the children who are not saved, or who's lives are intolerable. Again, you can't have it both ways no matter how much you insist that you can. Either He intervenes, or He does not. Take your pick. If He doesn't intervene or answer prayers, then it makes sense and we can stop right here. But when you start crediting God for all that is good, while claiming He has nothing to do with the bad, you are only kidding yourself.

What started this whole tangent for me was another poster claiming that God had saved her sick child. While I couldn't be happier that her daughter is OK, how dare she claim that God chose to save HER kid, while at that very moment another child was dying at the hands of an abusive parent, or choking to death on a chicken bone, a marbel, or their own vomit! Just how arrogant does one have to be to think that their child is any more important to God than another child?

Sorry... This gets me really riled. I think you guys should just say that God does not intervene and leave it at that. But until you do, I think the rest of us rational thinkers have every right to hold you, your beliefs, and your god accountable for helping some, but not others who are just as deserving.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

But you DO claim to understand Him! Everyone here has made many claims about God and His goodness. It's only when something doesn't make sense and defies the essence of logic, that people fall back on "We cannot attempt to understand Him". Can you really not see that?

I guess I've learned all that I'm going to learn about this. I don't want to feel that I'm degrading you guys, or that I'm in opposition. I have sincere questions that I guess cannot be answered. It's frustrating.

If you were to say that God does not intervene, we'd be done with this by now. That would explain the atrocities and suffering in the world. But when you say He intervenes sometimes, but not others, this presents a very huge problem, which you deal with by simply ignoring it. The differenc between us is I cannot ignore it.

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Sometimes God does not intervene. He allows circumstances in our lives to show us how much we need Him. He uses this to give us the opportunity to turn our hearts to Him. As for understanding what cannot be understood, this is called faith.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

The concept of hell...

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Was not created for man. It was created as a punishment for Satan. However, if we ignore the gentle call of the LORD and choose to live in rebellion to Him and His Word, then He has no choice. He cannot allow sin to enter Heaven, which is perfect. Those who do not turn to Him will be sent to Hell. Not God's choosing, but by our own.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

Job 36:12
But if they do not obey,They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:15-17 (in Context) John 3 (Whole Chapter)
John 10:28
And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:27-29 (in Context) John 10 (Whole Chapter)

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

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Originally Posted by savedsinner7

Sometimes God does not intervene. He allows circumstances in our lives to show us how much we need Him.

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You keep saying this, while ignoring the logical consequences of such an implication. When you say, "faith" (like you did at the end of your post), I'm willing to accect that and we can be done. Faith by definition is belief in the absence of evidence (or even in the face of contradictory evidence, which is the case here). So if you just want to say, "I don't know. It's ALL faith", I'll say fine.

But when you make statements like the one above, it demands explanation. Why? Because it doesn't make sense if you don't also explain why you extend the leeway to God that you wouldn't expect any reasonable person to extend in any other situation! Suppose...

I'm driving in a desert with a tankload of water when I come upon 3 stranded people who are dehydrated and dying of thirst. It wouldn't take much for me to provide all of them with enough water to relieve their misery. Instead, I give water to one, while ignoring the other two and watching them suffer and die of dehydration. Wouldn't you you question my cruelty? Wouldn't you even think to ask me why I helped one, but not the others? Why I stood there watching one quench his thirst, while letting the others die as they begged me for water?

Don't be silly! Of course you would! Yet, when it comes to God, the rules of common sense, logic, and reason cease to exist. No longer do you question a lack of mercy and moral decency we would expect even from a common crimminal! Why is that?

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Originally Posted by savedsinner7

However, if we ignore the gentle call of the LORD and choose to live in rebellion to Him and His Word, then He has no choice.

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Has no choice? Are you saying that an omnipotent, omnisentient Creator who made the entire universe, and who can simultaneously hear and answer billions of prayers, part a sea, flood the entire earth, etc. is powerless to forgive someone who was unfortunate enough to be born in a place where people think Allah is the real God?

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He cannot allow sin to enter Heaven, which is perfect.

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What do you mean by sin? Aren't we ALL sinners? If I understand things right, even a convicted murderer can be saved on his deathbed if he repents and accepts Jesus as his Savior. Is this incorrect? Why then, can't someone be forgiven for being born in the wrong geographical location, or having the misfortune of having parents who were Jewish, instead of Christian? Or even somebody like myself, who sees no compelling reason to believe any gods exist?

Yes, lobrobster, we are all sinners. Jesus died for us and if we choose to believe in what he did for us we will be cleansed from our sins.

God's mercy is perfect. However, many still choose to turn their backs on Him and He will not be taken for granted. He is Holy. He is Perfect and we cannot know His ways unless He reveals them to us.

Maybe you should check out Not Religion! - Home and 1-888-NEED HIM - Why Am I Here? What Makes My Life So Hard? Answers to Life's Greatest Questions

You may find more of the answers you are looking for.

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Originally Posted by savedsinner7

Yes, lobrobster, we are all sinners. Jesus died for us and if we choose to believe in what he did for us we will be cleansed from our sins.

God's mercy is perfect. However, many still choose to turn their backs on Him and He will not be taken for granted. He is Holy. He is Perfect and we cannot know His ways unless He reveals them to us.

Maybe you should check out Not Religion! - Home and 1-888-NEED HIM - Why Am I Here? What Makes My Life So Hard? Answers to Life's Greatest Questions

You may find more of the answers you are looking for.

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Thank you for the links. I'll check them out. Here's a question...

Do you think that when we die, we are given a chance to repent? Or must this be done BEFORE we die? Of course, if I were to see Jesus in heaven, I'd believe in Him. If I were to even see a heaven, I'd believe in heaven.

What about Muslims, Hindus, Jews, and those from other religions? Will they have a chance to convert after they die? Or are they doomed to eternal torture and suffering because they happened to have been brought up in the wrong religion?

And what about you? How do you account for the fact that you happen to belong to the "right" religion? Is it because you're smarter than all Hindus, Muslims, and Jews? Or is it some other reason? When I was a Christian I wondered about this all the time... What made me think I had inside info on God that all other religions didn't have?

Revelation 20
Satan Bound 1000 Years
1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
The Saints Reign with Christ 1000 Years

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a[a] thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
Satanic Rebellion Crushed

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[b] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
The Great White Throne Judgment

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[c] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[d] 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

May I recommend the book Driven By Eternity by John Bevere. Its an alegory that is about the judgment and heaven and hell. There is also an audio CD of a dramatization of this called Affabel. It explains this very well.

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Originally Posted by savedsinner7

Was not created for man. It was created as a punishment for Satan. However, if we ignore the gentle call of the LORD and choose to live in rebellion to Him and His Word, then He has no choice. He cannot allow sin to enter Heaven, which is perfect. Those who do not turn to Him will be sent to Hell. Not God's choosing, but by our own.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

Job 36:12
But if they do not obey,They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:15-17 (in Context) John 3 (Whole Chapter)
John 10:28
And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:27-29 (in Context) John 10 (Whole Chapter)

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

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Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!! I could not have said it better myself. God did not create Hell for man! If anyone goes to hell it is their own fault. Their own choice. Yes!! Great response. I still have not spread enough reputation to rate your answer or I would have savedsinner.

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Originally Posted by MoonlitWaves

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!!! I could not have said it better myself. God did not create Hell for man!! If anyone goes to hell it is their own fault. Their own choice. Yes!!! Great response. I still have not spread enough reputation to rate your answer or I would have savedsinner.

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I didn't say it, the LORD did, I just pointed out His words. He does love each, but allows us to make our choice to serve Him or not. He will not force anyone to follow Him.

You see, my words are His words. I share with you what I know of Him, what He has revealed to me. Please see my profile for my experiences. This may help you to understand me better.

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Originally Posted by savedsinner7

You see, my words are His words. I share with you what I know of Him, what He has revealed to me. Please see my profile for my experiences. This may help you to understand me better.

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I just read your profile and I think it's very impressive! If belief in Jesus gave you the strength to turn your life around, I think that's great! I was in a similar situation through my teens and early twenties. I also turned things around, although without faith. So there's more than one way to achieve a means.

I also think you're a very valuable member to this forum. It's good to have someone as knowledgeable as you are about Christianity. But I think it's wrong to preach unless specifically asked to do so. Many here are not looking for a sermon, but want honest advice or answers from real people. For instance...

There's this rabbi who devoted his whole life to pleasing God, and he did many wonderful things to help people in need throughout his life. Now if I ask do Christians believe that this man will burn in hell for eternity because he did not accept Jesus Christ as his Savior? Cite scripture if you must.

But if I ask how you as a Christian can accept such a hidious belief, I'm not looking for scripture! I want to know how you reconcile this fact and live with it. That's a question that requires your honest human response. Does that make any sense?

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

There's this rabbi who devoted his whole life to pleasing God, and he did many wonderful things to help people in need throughout his life. Now if I ask do Christians believe that this man will burn in hell for eternity because he did not accept Jesus Christ as his Savior? Go ahead and cite scripture if you must.

But if I ask how you as a Christian can accept such a hidious belief, I'm not looking for scripture! I want to know how you reconcile this fact and live with it. That's a question that requires your honest human response. Does that make any sense?

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In this instance I would say that had he devoted his life to pleasing God then He would have accepted Jesus as his savior.

Yes, if he does not accept Jesus as his savior then he will go to hell. I don't think this is a hidious belief. God tells us what we must do to go to heaven and how to avoid hell. Therefore if you do not do ask for salvation then who do you have to blame other than yourself? How can you blame God that people go to hell when they have the opportunity to be saved and go to heaven? When they know if they don't accept Christ they will go to hell? How is it God's fault that they chose hell?

You guide your child and tell them what they should and shouldn't do. If they do what you tell them not to, is that your fault? Do you think you are wrong for punishing them? Does punishing them for their wrong doings make you a bad person?

Read the page I provide as a link below. This may help you to better understand what Christians believe happen to children, mentally handicapped and other people who are incapable of understanding God's Word. You may not agree and you may have more questions on it, but give it a go. Maybe you will gain more understanding.
Do mentally ill people go to heaven? Does God show mercy to those who are mentally retarded, challenged, disabled, or handicapped?

And read this answer about why God allows some to suffer and why He heals some.
Why do so many people have to experience terrible suffering before death?

An answer to the question, "How is eternity in hell a fair punishment for sin?"
How is eternity in hell a fair punishment for sin?

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In this instance I would say that had he devoted his life to pleasing God then He would have accepted Jesus as his savior.

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But how?! He's a Jewish rabbi for cryin' out loud! Rabbis do not, cannot, believe that Jesus was the Son of God.

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Yes, if he does not accept Jesus as his savior then he will go to hell. I don't think this is a hidious belief.

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How can you find it anything but morally obscene that a good, gentle, pious man who had devoted his entire life to God, is sentenced (by the very same God he worshipped) to eternal torture and punishment on a technicality? This is what I mean. Scripture doesn't cut it here. You are accepting a complete abomination of morality and justice. How are you justifying calling this a loving god, when no human being with an ounce of compassion would treat their worst enemy this way?

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God tells us what we must do to go to heaven and how to avoid hell.

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Let me ask you a serious question... Do you honestly think that if you had been born in Iraq to Muslim parents that you wouldn't be worshipping Allah and the koran right now? I think if you had been born in Israel, you'd be Jewish right now. Had you been born in India, you'd be Hindu, or a Buddhist. Had you been born someplace in Africa, you'd be worshing the ju-ju on the mountain. It is only by the sheerest of accidents you happen to be Christian. And THIS is what has you convinced you're religion is right?

Or is it that you think Christians are smarter than Muslims? Or Jews? Or Hindus who are just as convinced they are right about their beliefs?

The point I'm making is, that rabbi is every bit as convinced he's right about god as you are! And you have no edge over a practicing rabbi. He's just as likely to be right about god as you are, and undoubtedly more so.

Certainly if there's a loving God He understands this. He understands that a Jew cannot believe what a Christian does. So you've got a HUGE problem if you believe he did everything else right, but will still burn in hell for eternity because he got one technicality about Jesus wrong. Like I said, it's a hidious concept. What if YOU'RE wrong and it is Allah you should be worshipping?

I would rather spend my life pursuing Jesus and be wrong, then not follow Him and find our He really is.

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Originally Posted by savedsinner7

I would rather spend my life pursuing Jesus and be wrong, then not follow Him and find our He really is.

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No problem. We can let this die. I've enjoyed corresponding with you. But I hope you consider that there are hundreds of different religions out there practiced by people just as smart as yourself. So Christianity is a huge longshot to be the right belief. And if there really IS a god who sends people to hell, and He's NOT the Christian God... You're probably in more trouble than an atheist.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

Let me ask you a serious question... Do you honestly think that if you had been born in Iraq to Muslim parents that you wouldn't be worshipping Allah and the koran right now? I think if you had been born in Israel, you'd be Jewish right now. Had you been born in India, you'd be Hindu, or a Buddhist. Had you been born someplace in Africa, you'd be worshing the ju-ju on the mountain. It is only by the sheerest of accidents you happen to be Christian. And THIS is what has you convinced you're religion is right?

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No, I have said on this board before in another thread that I am grateful to God that I was born to Chrisitian parents. I am grateful that I did not have to sort through all other religions to find what I believe to be Truth. I also stated that I would like to think and hope that I would still be a Christian had I been born to believers of something different even if in another country, but I can't know for sure. Therefore I am grateful I didn't have to find out.
No, What convinces me that my religion is right is my faith in God. My faith that He is Truth. No, I don't believe this makes me better than anyone else or smarter than anyone else. But because of my faith, I do believe that what I believe in is correct. Do I go around telling people who believe differently that I'm right and they're wrong? No. I would tell them using the Word why I believe the way I do. I will let God do the rest. Because after I have told them, there is nothing I can do any longer other than pray. It will then be between the person and God.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

Or is it that you think Christians are smarter than Muslims? Or Jews? Or Hindus who are just as convinced they are right about their beliefs?

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Of course not! Again, it because of my faith that I am a Christian.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

Certainly if there's a loving God He understands this. He understands that a Jew cannot believe what a Christian does. So you've got a HUGE problem if you believe he did everything else right, but will still burn in hell for eternity because he got one technicality about Jesus wrong. Like I said, it's a hidious concept. What if YOU'RE wrong and it is Allah you should be worshipping?

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I cannot tell you what God will and won't do in these difficult situations. It is not nor will it ever be my place to judge anyone. And thank God for that! With that said this is what I believe...

I believe that God knows all people's hearts. Only He can and will judge in the end. He will know, for one, if He went to that person in spirit. Two, He will know whether that person truly accepted Him or denied Him. God is a just God. He is loving and merciful and graceful. Therefore I believe this... Let's take babies and children for example. It is my belief that if a child/baby dies before their ability to understand that they are sinners, that they must accept Jesus as their savior then they will not be sent to hell. I do not believe that our loving and merciful God will send someone to hell who does not have the ability to understand the things in which they must understand to make a choice. Same goes for mentally hanicapped. I believe this also goes for anyone in this world. I do not believe that anyone will go to hell, no matter their age or intellectual status, if they do not have the ability to know that they must except Jesus as their savior in order to go to heaven.
But understand this... God gives us all the ability to know right from wrong. This is instilled in us. The Bibe tells us that we will ALL stand before the Judgement Seat and will be judged for our doings, good or bad. People who have never heard His Word are not exempt from this because they still know right from wrong. I do not believe that these people can nor will be held accountable for not excepting Jesus if they never knew they must except Jesus.
I believe God is just. I believe that God knows what's in our hearts. God knows what we know and what we don't know. He knows us better than we know ourselves. Therefore I believe God will judge people justly based upon these things.

:EDIT: I wanted to add something else to this that I forgot to mention.
But know this as well. It is my belief that if a person denies God's salvation they will go to hell. There is no excuse. It is my belief that if a person denies salvation they KNOW what it is they are denying. They know what will happen if they deny. It is my belief that God gives them this understanding when He comes to them. As I said before, God knows our hearts and because I believe Him to be just, His decision is the just and correct one.

Lobrobster,
Also let me add this... Do you remember the story of Lazurus and the rich man? But notice this one particular thing out of the whole story and out of all the rich man said. Never once did the rich man ask to come out of hell. He asked for a drop of water, but he did not ask to come out of hell. Why do you think that is?

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I am grateful that I did not have to sort through all other religions to find what I believe to be Truth.

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So let's think about this... You have not researched any other religion, yet you are convinced that your religion is right. Do you buy cars like this? Would you make any other important decision in your life having learned only one side of a story? And this decision is so much MORE important than any earthly purchase or decision you could make! It involves your eternal soul! Yet you are not even willing to look into Islam or any other religion, preferring instead to just hope you were born into the right one? My you ARE a risk taker!

Seriously... I find it so hard to make these common sense points without coming off as insulting. I'm really trying hard to be respectful. But this is the epitome of arrogance! It's poor decision making at it's finest, barren of any semblence of logic whatsoever.

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God is a just God. He is loving and merciful and graceful.

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Yet we just concluded (with savedsinner) that God will sentence a gentle pious rabbi to eternity in hell. This is a man who devoted his entire life to God, but missed the fact that Jesus was divine, and instead just thought of him as a great teacher. Now God sends him to burn in hell forever. In no way, shape, or form, is this a loving just God.

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I do not believe that our loving and merciful God will send someone to hell who does not have the ability to understand the things in which they must understand to make a choice.

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Well then you must be including me here. I do not have the ability to suspend all logic and believe some of the outrageous claims in the bible. So I can still be saved, right?

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Same goes for mentally hanicapped. I believe this also goes for anyone in this world. I do not believe that anyone will go to hell, no matter their age or intellectual status, if they do not have the ability to know that they must except Jesus as their savior in order to go to heaven.

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At last! You are using logic and I can finally agree with you on something. I still don't think there's a god, but if there is, and He's loving, what you stated here is the only thing that makes sense.

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It is my belief that if a person denies God's salvation they will go to hell. There is no excuse.

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Well when do we get to make that determination? You see, right now I have no compelling reason to think a god exists. None... While the bible is good enough for you, it isn't for me. I don't believe what ancient man had to say about sky gods, because they didn't understand the world they were living in, the way we do now. They didn't know why volcanos erupted, or why tsunamis occurred. They didn't even know why the sun rose every day! There was once a volcano god, a god of the sea, a god of thunder, etc. Eventually all these gods went away as we began to understand our world. So what I'm asking is this...

I live a good life. I automatically do unto others as I would have them do unto me. I give to charity. I love and respect my fellow man. And while I do not believe in your god, I do not worship false gods. So when I die, if I come face to face with God or Jesus, I will obviously believe. It will be the very first time I ever had evidence they existed. So at that point, if God looks over my life and sees I was good, and He ask me to accept Him, I certainly would. So do I get into heaven? Or does He send me straight to hell?

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

So let's think about this... You have not researched any other religion, yet you are convinced that your religion is right. Do you buy cars like this? Would you make any other important decision in your life having learned only one side of a story? And this decision is so much MORE important than any earthly purchase or decision you could make! It involves your eternal soul! Yet you are not even willing to look into Islam or any other religion, preferring instead to just hope you were born into the right one? My you ARE a risk taker!

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Actually I have researched other religions, not thoroughly, but I have, and not all of them either. But I will also admit that I was a Christian before learning anything of other religions. Even still I find Truth in Christianity so there is no point, that I find, in researching other religions. Call it risky, call it what you will, but it is how I feel. I am comforted in my choice, I am content in my choice, and I believe with all my heart that my choice is the correct choice, therefore I am not afraid for my eternal soul. And no, I am not hoping I was born into the right religion, I believe I WAS born into the right religion. Whether I was born into a Christian family or not I still had to make a choice. And I made it. This may not be good enough for you personally, and you may feel I am careless in my reasoning and ways, but I am content with it, therefore that is what matters to me. You do what is important and what matters to you. You're the one who must answer for your choices, not only in the end but even now.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

Seriously... I find it so hard to make these common sense points without coming off as insulting. I'm really trying hard to be respectful. But this is the epitome of arrogance! It's poor decision making at it's finest, barren of any semblence of logic whatsoever.

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I don't feel insulted by your opinions of my choices and beliefs. I mean it would be different if your intentions were to insult me, but I don't feel however, that this is your intentions. Even if I am wrong it still doesn't change anything. I enjoy discussing this with you. I want you to ask whatever you want to. I want you to understand my beliefs. I want you to comment about how you feel about it. I can explain to you why I feel and believe it is not the way you think it to be. Whether you agree in the end or not at least we know we talked about your questions and comments. See what I mean?
With that said let me comment on your comments. See, to you, it is common sense that my beliefs are wrong or not logical, but to me it is common sense to believe the way I do. I feel it is easy to see and know the same Truth that I know and see. Therefore, just as you can't understand why I can't see your point of view, I can't understand why you can't see mine. I don't believe that my contentment with my belief and decisions are arrogant at all! How is finding what I believe to be the correct choice, even if on the first try, bad decision making? But remember this lobrobster, even if you feel it is bad decision making who is the one that must answer for MY choices? Me.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

Yet we just concluded (with savedsinner) that God will sentence a gentle pious rabbi to eternity in hell. This is a man who devoted his entire life to God, but missed the fact that Jesus was divine, and instead just thought of him as a great teacher. Now God sends him to burn in hell forever. In no way, shape, or form, is this a loving just God.

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As I said before it is not my place to answer to why God chooses to do what He does. I am in no place to judge anyone. But I can tell you what I believe to be the way God will judge people. God knows whether that rabbi knew He must accept Jesus as his savior to enter heaven. Only God knows whether He came to that rabbi. Again, I believe God to be just. Therefore I do not think God will send anyone to heaven or hell unjustly.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

Well then you must be including me here. I do not have the ability to suspend all logic and believe some of the outrageous claims in the bible. So I can still be saved, right?

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This is not for me to say, and I won't say. I would not even look at an unsaved person and tell them they are going to hell. This is not my place. I will however read them the scripture and let God take care of the convicting and judging.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

At last! You are using logic and I can finally agree with you on something. I still don't think there's a god, but if there is, and He's loving, what you stated here is the only thing that makes sense.

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I am not just now using logic. It has always been my belief that God would not send someone to hell who, for one, could not understand it, or two, didn't have the knowledge necessary to know how to be saved and enter heaven. Never did I say otherwise.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

Well when do we get to make that determination? You see, right now I have no compelling reason to think a god exists. None... While the bible is good enough for you, it isn't for me. I don't believe what ancient man had to say about sky gods, because they didn't understand the world they were living in, the way we do now. They didn't know why volcanos erupted, or why tsunamis occured. They didn't even know why the sun rose every day! There was once a volcano god, a god of the sea, a god of thunder, etc. Eventually all these gods went away as we began to understand our world. So what I'm asking is this...

I live a good life. I automatically do unto others as I would have them do unto me. I give to charity. I love and respect my fellow man. And while I do not believe in your god, I do not worship false gods. So when I die, if I come face to face with God or Jesus, I will obviously believe. It will be the very first time I ever had evidence they existed. So at that point, if God looks over my life and sees I was good, and He ask me to accept Him, I certainly would. So do I get into heaven? Or does He send me straight to hell?

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No, I believe that once you die you have no other chances. So when you do see Jesus face to face it will be too late to make a choice. Because after you see Him there is no choice to be made. You will have no choice but to believe in Him as you will have the proof right in front of you. This is not what God wants. He wants you to have faith. Please don't wait until you see Him.
Again, accepting Jesus as your savior is how you get into heaven. Just being good will not get you into heaven. Therefore there will be people who did good things on this earth who will go to hell. You may think it is cruel. But let me ask you this... and I truly want you to think about this... If you do not believe in God then you do not believe in heaven. Why should you go to heaven when you don't believe there is one, even if you are a good person? Or if you denied the opportunity to go while you were on earth? Why should God allow a person into heaven who is being good "just in case" there is a heaven? God makes it clear what must be done to enter heaven. Why then, should He allow you there if you don't do what you clearly know you must do to get there?

lobrobster, may I ask you a question?

You are a parent. If your child is willfully disobedient, do you discipline?

If your child was to refuse to listen to your words of wisdom and chose a life of rebellion, drugs, destitution, or other unfavorable life, would you still love them?

Would you force them to follow your way?

Would you allow them the natural consequences associated with such choices?

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Originally Posted by savedsinner7

lobrobster, may I ask you a question?

You are a parent. If your child is willfully disobedient, do you discipline?

If your child was to refuse to listen to your words of wisdom and chose a life of rebellion, drugs, destitution, or other unfavorable life, would you still love them?

Would you force them to follow your way?

Would you allow them the natural consequences associated with such choices?

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All very good questions!

*I remember the first time I spanked my daughter. She was about 4, and 'll never forget the look on her face. It was at once a look of defiance, disbelief, and shock, as if she didn't know who I was. She didn't even cry, which surprised me because I gave her a pretty good whack. I spanked her again, harder this time wanting her to get the message. But it was the same thing. She still didn't cry! Her look was even more defiant this time, more of shock, and more like I was some stranger to her. I decided right then that I would never want to break such a strong will. It was the last time I ever spanked my kids. But of course, I do discipline them in other ways now.

As for your other questions, I think I might see what you're getting at.

Yes, you can only do so much for your kids to prepare them for the real world and if they stray into trouble or from your love, I suppose you have to let them go at some point. But here's the thing...

My love for my children is unconditional. They are always welcome to come back to me, no matter what their transgressions. And I would never lock them in a dungeonness basement even for a moment, let alone eternity!

This is what I ask YOU to think about! What loving parent would ever wish such a fate upon their child? There is no transgression my kids could make that would cause me to want to send them to hell where they suffer for eternity. On the contrary...

I would gladly take their place in hell, if it meant sparing them such a fate. Such is the love of a parent. Yet somehow you justify such a barbaric sentence as the product of a loving god? I just don't understand how.

Please don't say, "God does not/cannot"... Please! You claim god to be omnipotent. That means all-powerful, all knowing, and able to do anything (within logical reason). And we are to believe He can't spare his own children the hidious fate of hell? I don't buy it.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

Yet somehow you justify such a barbaric sentence as the product of a loving god? I just don't understand how.

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Oh how God is loving! So loving that He sent His Son, who never sinned, to carry and die for our sins so the we would not suffer in hell for eternity.
You, and not just you, but a lot of people who find it difficult to believe in God, do so because He will send people to hell. But you are not focusing on the right thing. God is love, mercy, grace and goodness. If you were focusing on God you wouldn't even be thinking about hell. Other than trying to spead His gospel so that everyone else will rejoice in heaven with you and not suffer hell. Too many people assosiate God with hell, and this is not correct thinking. Why do you all focus so much on the fact that people will go to hell rather than focusing on the grace God provides to keep you out of there? And letting others know Truth as well so that they will stay out of hell?

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

Please don't say, "God does not/cannot"... Please! You claim god to be omnipotent. That means all-powerful, all knowing, and able to do anything (within logical reason). And we are to believe He can't spare his own children the hidious fate of hell? I don't buy it.

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Any Christian who knows anything about God should know that God CAN do anything and everything. But God only does what it is in His will to do.

With each response from you, I have new questions. We could go on forever it seems. I hope you don't mind one more...

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So loving that He sent His Son, who never sinned, to carry and die for our sins so the we would not suffer in hell for eternity.

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Why do you find this loving? Why couldn't He have just forgave us without putting Jesus through all that? He IS God, isn't He? Are you saying there was no other way we could've been forgiven for our sins? If you had any other way, would you ever allow your child to be tortured like that? I'm sure this little nugget of illogic doesn't bother you, but it sure bothers me. It makes no sense. Also, according to you, Many of us are STILL not saved and will wind up burning in hell for eternity anyway.

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You, and not just you, but a lot of people who find it difficult to believe in God, do so because He will send people to hell.

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That's but one, of many reasons yes. But there are tons more why I find it difficult to believe in God.

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But you are not focusing on the right thing. God is love, mercy, grace and goodness.

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Well He didn't seem so loving, merciful, gracious, or good, when he wiped out the entire human race except for Noah and his family. Or when he slew every first born in the land of Egypt. Or when He commands that those who don't observe the Sabbath day be killed, or when He says to stone your fiancé to death if she's not a virgin, or... Need I go on?

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Too many people assosiate God with hell, and this is not correct thinking. Why do you all focus so much on the fact that people will go to hell rather than focusing on the grace God provides to keep you out of there? And letting others know Truth as well so that they will stay out of hell?

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I'll be glad to drop hell from my list of seemingly never-ending questions about what doesn't make sense in the bible and move on. Perhaps you can explain the story of Noah's ark to me?

Lobrobseter,
I am going to attempt to try to get you to understand why I believe God sends people to hell (other than because they are not saved), and why I do not believe this makes Him a cruel God.

First of all I have the feeling that you think people are deserving of heaven. If I am wrong then please correct me, but I believe this may be the reason why you can only focus on the fact that God will send people to hell. The reason why you can't see that God is nothing but good. That He is just in His decision for our eternity.

None of us, not one, deserves God's grace, mercy, salvation and heaven.

We on our own accord are not deserving of heaven/salvation/grace. God makes us deserving by washing us in the blood of the Lamb when we accept Jesus as our savior. Sin cannot enter heaven, therefore we must be washed in the blood of the Lamb (saved). This is why just being good will not get you into heaven.

Here's the thing lobrobster. This world must end. God is not going to continue to allow all the bad in this world to go on forever. The reason being is because God did not intend for the world to be sinful in the first place. It will go back to the way He intended it from the get go, which is perfect (heaven). With that said, think about this. Since our souls live for eternity they must live somewhere. If God will not allow them to continue in this sinful world, then what will He do with them? If those who are still sinful (unsaved) do not and cannot enter heaven, where then should they go? One day the sin in this world will stop. Sin will stop period. Even for those who are in hell, even they do not get to continue in their sin. They will spend their eternal lives being punished for their wrong doings. So... even if their punishment is not hell, they still must spend an eternity being punished. What punishment do you honestly think someone could spend an eternity receiving that would not be excruciating (even if not painful), terrifying, sorrowful, etc.
Why then, you may ask, doesn't He just eliminate those who will receive punishment altogether instead of sending them to an eternity of punishment? Because our souls are eternal. Why should He destroy you? Why should you get out of your punishment.
Surely you will agree lobrobster, that when people do wrong they should receive punishment for it. Why then do you have a problem with God dishing out punishment for our disobedience?

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Originally Posted by MoonlitWaves

Lobrobseter,
I am going to attempt to try to get you to understand why I believe God sends people to hell (other than because they are not saved), and why I do not believe this makes Him a cruel God.

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In my opinion, God doesn't send anyone to hell. God gives you free will. With your free will you can select God and heaven or reject God and select hell. Whoever has gone to hell, is there of their own free will.

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end.
CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 1037

Sincerely,

De Maria

Moonlitwaves-

I think you've explained God and heaven adequately and to my satisfaction. If I understand you correctly, you are saying:

God and heaven are perfection. They are absolute. Heaven is not so much a place as it is a state of perfection. Of all that is good and the complete absence of evil and all that is bad.

Since none of us are perfect (or can ever hope to be), it is impossible to be worthy of God's grace and His presence in heaven. In this way, heaven cannot be earned. We are never fully deserving of God or heaven. However...

God so loves us He is willing to provide us with a way to join Him in the glory of heaven. This is why He sent Jesus His only Son down to die for us. In this way, if we accept Jesus as our Savior, we might hope to be cleansed of our sins enough to enter heaven.

I might have a few things wrong here and there, but is this about right?

You've explained this all very well and I greatly appreciate it. It's even starting to make some logical sense to me when put in this way. Although I still don't get why Jesus had to be so brutally tortured. I'm also unclear on why God can't just forgive us. Or why there is an earthly time limit for our souls to be cleansed. Why can't those of us who don't believe all this stuff take care of it in the eternal afterlife? Exactly what is it about my soul that changes after accepting Jesus? What you're saying is that even if I sin less than you do, you're soul is cleansed with your acceptance of Jesus. Why is that? If I see Jesus after death I would accept Him as well. Now we both accepted Him, but I have sinned less than you (hypothetical... I'm not saying I really sin less than you). Why are you saved, but I am not?

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Originally Posted by De Maria

In my opinion, God doesn't send anyone to hell. God gives you free will. With your free will you can select God and heaven or reject God and select hell. Whoever has gone to hell, is there of their own free will.

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Except if you happen to have the misfortune of being born in Pakistan.

This is why I say you're intolerant De Maria. Can you really not see that if you had been born in an Islamic fundamentalist part of the world that YOU yourself would be a Muslim worshipping Allah right now? Or are you so conceited to think that you would have somehow saw the light, where millions have not? Been brave enough to commit apostasy against the Koran (punishable by death), where millions have not? And been praising Jesus instead of Allah, when millions do not?

Yes... De Maria super Christian! Would've somehow saw the light of Christianity, avoided being beheaded, and saved his soul, where MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of Muslims have utterly failed. They must all be so much dumber than you, huh? Please...

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

With each response from you, I have new questions. We could go on forever it seems. I hope you don't mind one more...

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I'm sorry, but I am trying to answer your questions to the best of my knowledge. Knowing God is never ending therefore we could talk about this until we die. Don't worry if you have new questions, I have questions all the time too. I don't mind answering your questions, do not feel as though you are getting on my nerves because you are not. I will answr what I can for.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

Why do you find this loving? Why couldn't He have just forgave us without putting Jesus through all that? He IS God, isn't He? Are you saying there was no other way we could've been forgiven for our sins? If you had any other way, would you ever allow your child to be tortured like that?

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First of all I believe that Jesus was willing. Secondly, blood is necessary in cleansing us of our sins. Hebrews 9:22 "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission." Jesus was sent as a final sacrifice. Once He fulfilled the prophecy we no longer have to sacrifice blood in order to receive forgivness for our sins.
Why must Jesus' blood be shed in order to receive salvation? When we receive salvation we receive life. Blood represents life. Leviticus 17:11 " For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul." Therefore the shedding of Jesus' blood, shed life. His blood must have been shed in order that we may have life (salvation).

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

I'm sure this little nugget of illogic doesn't bother you, but it sure bothers me. It makes no sense.

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The reason I gave you above is logical to me. It makes perfect sense, and I am glad God loves us so much that He did this for us so that we may have life.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

Also, according to you, Many of us are STILL not saved and will wind up burning in hell for eternity anyways.

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Jesus did die so that we all could receive salvation, but you must believe in God whole heartedly and you must accept this offer to go to heaven.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

That's but one, of many reasons yes. But there are tons more why I find it difficult to believe in God.

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If you want to, we can talk about these things. I enjoy it and will discuss this with you so long as you want to. We may have to revert to private message as this is becoming discussion and asking questions that are not related to the original question asked.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

Well He didn't seem so loving, merciful, gracious, or good, when he wiped out the entire human race except for Noah and his family. Or when he slew every first born in the land of Egypt. Or when He commands that those who don't observe the Sabbath day be killed, or when He says to stone your fiance to death if she's not a virgin, or... Need I go on?

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Some of these things, in our human mind, find it hard to understand. I do not understand His reason's for everything He does. But because of my faith in God, because I believe He is good and just, I do not believe that these instances make Him cruel, unmerciful, not gracious, and bad.
Isaiah 55:8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord." Isaiah 55:9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Because I know this, I know that what I may think of His actions, like the ones you mentioned, are not necessarily truth. For example if I was to think this is cruel of Him. This is my human thoughts and because His thoughts are higher than mine I may not be getting the true understanding of why He did what He did, because I am not thinking like He is. Do you see what I mean? Also, because it is my belief that God is good, I believe that everything He does is for the good, will make for a better outcome, is what was meant to be, etc. It is because I have faith that God is good and just that I trust His decisions are the right ones.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

I'll be glad to drop hell from my list of seemingly never-ending questions about what doesn't make sense in the bible and move on.

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Do that only if you want to, but don't do it because you think I don't want to answer or wish for you to stop asking. I want you to ask whatever you will. As I said before I will answer you what I can. And when I can't I will seek the answer for you, if it be through studying and asking God to give me the answer for you, or if I have to ask someone myself.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

Perhaps you can explain the story of Noah's ark to me?

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What is it you would like to know? If it is why God flooded the earth and killed all of those people I have answered the best I can above.

lobrobster
Have you ever tried to forgive someone who refused to accept what you were offering?
God does not will that ANY should suffer the punishment, but many REFUSE to OPEN the GIFT He offers in Jesus. Can you imagine giving your child the most awesome gift that you spent much time planning and wrapping and then they just look at the paper and walk away?

Jesus was tortured so much so that we don't have to be. He loves us so incredibly that He was willing to give up His only Son for us. I have kids I will never give up that way. I'm too selfish. God is not. Jesus willingly laid His life down, He said so.
John 10:15
As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
John 10:14-16 (in Context) John 10 (Whole Chapter)
John 10:17
“Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.
John 10:16-18 (in Context) John 10 (Whole Chapter)
John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.
John 15:12-14 (in Context) John 15 (Whole Chapter)


Jesus went willingly to His death, so that He could be raised again by the Father.

lobrobster, there will always be arguments against believing in God as long as Satan is loose.

There are many things of God that I don't yet understand and that cause me to question. I ask God when I have questions and in time (His timing) He reveals the answers. Many things I may not know until I stand before Him. Still I seek Him.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

Except if you happen to have the misfortune of being born in Pakistan.

This is why I say you're intolerant De Maria.

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I guess on this forum you are permitted to call me whatever you want. God forbid I tell you what I think of you however. I'll have the nonChristian thought police all over me.

Nevertheless, I will. I don't think you have any earthly idea what you are talking about.

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Can you really not see that if you had been born in an Islamic fundamentalist part of the world that YOU yourself would be a Muslim worshipping Allah right now? Or are you so conceited to think that you would have somehow saw the light, where millions have not? Been brave enough to commit apostasy against the Koran (punishable by death), where millions have not? And been praising Jesus instead of Allah, when millions do not?

Yes... De Maria super Christian!

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Praise God! That is precisely what I'm shooting for.

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Would've somehow saw the light of Christianity, avoided being beheaded, and saved his soul, where MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of Muslims have utterly failed. They must all be so much dumber than you, huh? Please...

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Well, you don't know what you are talking about. I happen to believe that many people who are not Christian will be in heaven before Christians. That is Catholic doctrine.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 9 PARAGRAPH 3

So, although yiou may think I'm intolerant, you have no grounds to do so. However, you have just proven your own ignorance about what the majority of Christians believe.

Sincerely,

De Maria