Quote:

---

Originally Posted by magprob

Carl Marx predicted that America would be a Spanish speaking country in the future...much to the delight of the Catholic church! The Catholic church is trying to populate the world with Catholics just as the Mormon church is trying to populate the world with Mormons!

---

Just my opinion... what exactly is wrong with trying to populate the world with <insert religion here>? Corporations try to populate the world with their product, i.e. they hope as many as possible people in the world will use their product so they can make lots of money. Are corporations in agreements with Satan? What is wrong with too many Spanish-speakers? What is wrong with too many Catholics? Too many "Tide" users?:eek: It's all relative.

And don't even start on a group of evil people being representative of a whole group (see: religious terrorists/suicide bombers)--it's just bad logic!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by magprob

And does'nt that go both ways? Even if it is as obvious as the nose on your face. Denial is the path of least resistance.

---

Not sure what you mean by go both ways. When a member of an organization makes accusations, it's up to that person to show the evidence, not the other way around.

2nd, it's still about the error of calling a group evil because of an evil member or evil members.

No one with a brain can deny that the Catholic Church has some evil members, as does every organization, religious or not.

The holiness of a church doesn't depend upon the holiness of its members. Look at the teachings of the church, which condemns these terrible acts.

Have any of you ever read Fifty Years in the Church of Rome by Charles Chiniquy? He was a contemporary of President Lincoln. It makes interesting reading, and I think you can get it on line. Not sure about that though.

But how shall I relate my surprise when I discovered that, in order to accept the principles of the theologians which my Church gave me for guides I had to put away all principles of truth, of justice, of honour and holiness! What long and painful efforts it cost me to extinguish, one by one, the lights of truth and of reason kindled by the hand of my merciful God in my intelligence. For to study theology in the Church of Rome signifies to learn to speak falsely, to deceive, to commit robbery, to perjure one's self! It means how to commit sins without shame, it means to plunge the soul into every kind of iniquity and turpitude without remorse!

I know that Roman Catholics will bravely and squarely deny what I now say. I am aware also that a great many Protestants, too easily deceived by the fine whitewashing of the exterior walls of Rome, will refuse to believe me. Nevertheless they may rest assured it is true, and my proof will be irrefutable. The truth may be denied by many, but my witnesses cannot be contradicted by any one. My witnesses are even infallible. They are none other than the Roman Catholic theologians themselves, approved by infallible Popes! These very men who corrupted my heart, perverted my intelligence and poisoned my soul, as they have done with every priest of their Church, will be my witnesses, my only witnesses. I will just now forcibly bring them before the world to testify against themselves!

Fifty Years in the Church of Rome
By CHARLES CHINIQUY

I don't think dear Charles was buying it!

Don't go by the judgment of people but by God's Judgement. You ask a very wise questions. Let's start with this one. What is the worship day? Many say Sunday, but why? The say by instinct but they don't even know.

Gen 2:1 "
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.

2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested [a] from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

SO we understand that God did all these things, but does God really need any of this? He made this day for us right? He even emphasized it in the 10 commandments

Ex 20:8

"Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the lord your God"

By this time most people will say it's a Jewish Feast. But what day of the week is the 7th day in reality? After all we need to understand we are promised blessings only on the 7th day by God and not the 1st or 2nd but the 7th Day.

Dictionary: Sunday = 1st day of the week Saturday = 7th day of the week
Also look at a Calendar and notice the first day of the week is Sunday no Monday, and the 7th Saturday, not Sunday.

But let's see according to the bible what day of the week is the 7th day.

We understand a major Christian Holiday is Easter Sunday. But why Easter Sunday?

EASTER SUNDAY = Resurrection SUNDAY

Mark 16:9 " 9When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons.

He rose early on the 1st day of the week. But Easter falls on Sunday which commemorates the Resurrection. So if Sunday is the 1st day of the week, then what's Saturday? The 7th Day of the Week. The day blessed by God Most High:) NOT Sunday.

Mark 16:1 "When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus' body. 2Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise... "

So right after the Sabbath what came? The First day (Resurrection Day = Sunday) Clear or not?

Why does the Catholic Church keep Sunday worship?

John 8:47 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.
What did God say 7th Day Saturday Sabbath or 1st Day Sunday? By keeping Sunday worship we are not receiving the blessings promised by our creator,
then people wonder why so many disasters happen around the world, etc, etc. Because nobody follows a simple commandment.


They know clearly that Saturday is the worshiping day promised by God. Even Jesus kept the Sabbath day.

Luke 4:16 "He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read."

What about is apostles, did they keep the Sabbath day? Let's see...
Acts 17:2
As his custom was, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures....

NOT the first day but the Sabbath day. If the Catholic Church truly followed Jesus teachings, they would keep the Sabbath day holy:)


Mat 7:21

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'


What is God's will? 7th day Sabbath worship or 1st Day Sunday? Catholic Church has no salvation, nor does any church that keeps Sunday Worship. Jesus established the Church of God. That's the church I attend to. The only church IN THE WORLD that follows the true commandments of Christ.

I will simply point out:

Mark 16:9
9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
(KJV)
Jesus appeared to His disciples on the first day of the week (the day of His resurrection, morning and evening).


John 20:26
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
(KJV)

This was one week later when Jesus again met with His assembled disciples on the first day of the week.


1 Cor 16:2
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
(KJV)

If those churches were not meeting on the first day of the week, why did Paul specify that the offering be received on that day?

Of course, Paul went to the synagogue to preach Jesus on the Sabbath. No one would have been there on any other day!

I don't think the Catholic Church is evil at all, its some who abuse the power and influence they have in the name of the church, that's evil. And the endless cover-ups, and lies and deceit that's evil.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by talaniman

I don't think the Catholic Church is evil at all, its some who abuse the power and influence they have in the name of the church, thats evil. And the endless cover-ups, and lies and deceit thats evil.

---

Raping little kids, priests driving nice cars, religious leaders with golden cups and luxurious treats,
Is that God's will? Did Jesus not humble himself? Did Jesus established any other church other than
The Church of God? These churches do evil in God's eye, and it's no my judgment, but God's judgment.

God's will, 7th Day Sabbath. Not 1st day Sunday. If Jesus kept the Sabbath Day holy, everyone should, specially those who claim to follow Christ. After all, we are not Jewish, but yet we believe in Jesus? What shall we say then? Make up our on worship day (ex: 1st day worship) NO WAY! If it wasn't important to keep the Sabbath day holy, Jesus himself would not have done it.

According to Mt 7:21 only those who does the will of God will enter the Kingdom of heaven (7th Day Sabbath worship) not the evildoers (anything other than what God commanded us)

You may be able to point out a few verses when they met up on the first day, but you will not find any worshipping on the 1st day except for the Feasts of God and that's if they by coincidence fall on a Sunday. Other than that, God did not blessed the 1st day or made it holy. He Blessed the 7TH DAY SABBATH. You can go to church on Sundays as much as you can but you are not meeting with God to be blessed by him because that's why he appointed the 7th day Sabbath as a lasting ordinance. It's even in the 10 commandments (Ex 20:8).

If we don't keep Sabbath, we have no sign with God

Ezekiel 20:20
"Keep my Sabbaths holy, that they may be a sign between us. Then you will know that I am the LORD your God."

God didn't say "keep my 1st days holy"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RickJ

If it said "A 68-year-old School Teacher goes on trial Monday..." should we then ask

Could School Teachers be Evil?

---

I agree

This is just ONE article, and it could be any other group of people. I also agree with Father Chuck that The Catholic Church had its fair share in the past but so has anything else. Father CHuck made further important points, and although I can understand why people say the C. Church is "evil" I think a lot of other people simply believe it because they are fascinated with that kind of scenario.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by talaniman

I don't think the Catholic Church is evil at all, its some who abuse the power and influence they have in the name of the church, thats evil. And the endless cover-ups, and lies and deceit thats evil.

---

Yeah, the Church and CHristian rulers and people are supposed to be good, but there are a few people with lose screws that tarnish the reputation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Will144

Raping little kids, priests driving nice cars, religious leaders with golden cups and luxurious treats,
is that God's will? Did Jesus not humble himself? Did Jesus established any other church other than
The Church of God? These churches do evil in God's eye, and it's no my judgment, but God's judgment.

God's will, 7th Day Sabbath. Not 1st day Sunday. If Jesus kept the Sabbath Day holy, everyone should, specially those who claim to follow Christ. After all, we are not Jewish, but yet we beleive in Jesus? What shall we say then? Make up our on worship day (ex: 1st day worship) NO WAY! If it wasn't important to keep the Sabbath day holy, Jesus himself would not have done it.

According to Mt 7:21 only those who does the will of God will enter the Kingdom of heaven (7th Day Sabbath worship) not the evildoers (anything other than what God commanded us)

You may be able to point out a few verses when they met up on the first day, but you will not find any worshipping on the 1st day except for the Feasts of God and that's if they by coincidence fall on a Sunday. Other than that, God did not blessed the 1st day or made it holy. He Blessed the 7TH DAY SABBATH. You can go to church on Sundays as much as you can but you are not meeting with God to be blessed by him because that's why he appointed the 7th day Sabbath as a lasting ordinance. it's even in the 10 commandments (Ex 20:8).

If we don't keep Sabbath, we have no sign with God

Ezekiel 20:20
"Keep my Sabbaths holy, that they may be a sign between us. Then you will know that I am the LORD your God."

God didn't say "keep my 1st days holy"

---

That's a first. I've been trained Anti-Catholic? Wow And the Catholics have been trained Anti-Christ. Violating all the commandments beginning fro the first one. What do you call people who does not practice what the bible says? Lawlessness. I hope ELOHIM opens your eyes and allow you to realize that no church can give you eternal life but only the blood of Christ through the Passover.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Will144

that's a first. I've been trained Anti-Catholic? wow And the Catholics have been trained Anti-Christ. Violating all the commandments beginning fro the first one. What do you call people who does not practice what the bible says? Lawlessness. I hope ELOHIM opens your eyes and allow you to realize that no church can give you eternal life but only the blood of Christ thru the Passover.

---

More unfounded rhetoric. I don't blame you, though. Clearly you've been taught to say that without any effort to learn what the Catholic Church teaches and does.

Any chance you can point to an official Catholic teaching that supports what you're saying?

And I'm curious: Which of the 30,000 non Catholic sects, each of which claims to be right, do you belong?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RickJ

More unfounded rhetoric. I don't blame you, though. Clearly you've been taught to say that without any effort to learn what the Catholic Church teaches and does.

Any chance you can point to an official Catholic teaching that supports what you're saying?

And I'm curious: Which of the 30,000 non Catholic sects, each of which claims to be right, do you belong?

---

You are right. I've been taught by God. Do you wish to question God's judgment?


I do not belong to any 'sect'. We simply follow the teachings of Christ. For example, Passover, not communion, Remember the Sabbath day by Keeping holy, not Sun God worship (Sunday), Can any of you point out when Jesus celebrated the communion through the bible? Or when Jesus went to the synagogue on the 1st day of the week(Sunday)?

According to Rev 22:18, this is the last warning the Lord gave us:

"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."

In other words, no need to change the bible or come up with your own bibles. Whoever believes in Christ should only used the bible left by Jesus Christ and nothing else. Let's see what the Catholic Church did.


Please go to this link Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Ten Commandments

They changed the 1st commandment and made the original 1st and 2nd commandment into 1 commandment alone. 3rd commandment about the graven images and idols and replaced it with "no strange Gods before me" which is part of the first commandment. In other words, as long as your god doesn't have 7 legs and it's purple, it's ok:). The 4th commandment is the Sabbath, they changed it to the third and took out the word Sabbath out of it and called the "Lord's day", which to them is the "Sun-God's Day", in other words, Sunday. And last but not least, they split the 10th commandment by making it into two. They figured, hmm, we took one away, we need to add one. What did God say? Do not add, do not take away

God chose the foolish, because the wise think they are just that "wise". Jesus Christ came to seek the sinners, not the righteous. Get rid of your worldly knowledge and follow the humble way of Christ so that he may enlighten your path. For it is written that whoever tries to find his life (living happy in this world) will lose it, and whoever loses his life will find it (the kingdom of heaven). Remember the story of Lazarus and the Rich man. He was rich in arrogance and didn't accept God's word because he probably thought he was too knowledgeable and wise just like the pharisees whom never got to enter the kingdom of heaven.



I only use God's judgement, not men's judgment. God's word is clear, then why change it? Why do we need a "Traditional Cathetical Formula" when God gave us the "10 commandments"?? I am not here to argue friends, but to proclaim the truth. Flee to Zion and get out of Babylon. These are not my teachings for men has no wisdom, these are God's teaching, they came straight from the bible, God's word.

[email protected]

VERY interesting!

1. Christians have worshiped on Sunday for nearly 2000 years now.
2. "This book": The Apostle John, of course, was referring to HIS "book": The "book" we call Revelation, or The Revelation of John. The "book" that we call the Bible was non-existent at the time.
3. CHRIST DID NOT LEAVE US A BIBLE. A plain fact of history. Nowhere in the New Testament do we find His command to Write. The command was to Teach. See here.
4. The "Catholic Church" changed nothing. The order of the 10 Commandments is how it was in the Septuagint, which is what the Apostles, in the books of the New Testament, quoted 75% of the time.

Did I miss anything? Facts and History speak louder than zeal every time.

No "tone" is intended here at all. I do not intend to disparage in any way. I am very eager to discuss and debate issues such as these. I am always happy to "agree to disagree" when the disagreement is based on different interpretations of the facts... but when one makes claims that have no basis in fact, then that's where my weakness at tact and diplomacy sometimes falls short.

In my 5000+ posts here on this site I have not referred to my own site on more than 2-3 occasions, so I'll take this liberty. Check this out and learn a bit about what Catholic Christians are really taught before presuming that what you are told we are taught is correct: Catholic Truths: Ecumenical Apolgetics

PS/Olive Branch :) : I take back my "sect" comment.

I am sure that you are aware that there are over 30,000 groups that claim to follow the teachings of Christ. With which one are you a member of?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RickJ

VERY interesting!

1. Christians have worshiped on Sunday for nearly 2000 years now.
2. "This book": The Apostle John, of course, was referring to HIS "book": The "book" we call Revelation, or The Revelation of John. The "book" that we call the Bible was non-existent at the time.
3. CHRIST DID NOT LEAVE US A BIBLE. A plain fact of history. Nowhere in the New Testament do we find His command to Write. The command was to Teach. See here.
4. The "Catholic Church" changed nothing. The order of the 10 Commandments is how it was in the Septuagint, which is what the Apostles, in the books of the New Testament, quoted 75% of the time.

Did I miss anything? Facts and History speak louder than zeal every time.

No "tone" is intended here at all. I do not intend to disparage in any way. I am very eager to discuss and debate issues such as these. I am always happy to "agree to disagree" when the disagreement is based on different interpretations of the facts...but when one makes claims that have no basis in fact, then that's where my weakness at tact and diplomacy sometimes falls short.

In my 5000+ posts here on this site I have not referred to my own site on more than 2-3 occasions, so I'll take this liberty. Check this out and learn a bit about what Catholic Christians are really taught before presuming that what you are told we are taught is correct: Catholic Truths: Ecumenical Apolgetics

---

That's exacly what I mean. I do not need to read what your interpretation is (no offense), I only follow where the Lamb leads. Did you expect someone to be walking around writing down what Jesus did and his disciples and what they did not do? Does the creator not have the power to control what was going to be written in the bible which most of us use? Not the Catholic bible.

According to Dan's prophecy
Dan 7:25 "He will change the set times and laws"
Which is exacly what Constantine did in AD325 in the council on Nicea by abolishing Sabbath worship and Passover and replacing it with communion and christmas.

And that's a historic fact as well isn't it? Wasn't Constantine the founder of the Roman Catholic Church? Wasn't he the Pontifex Maximus which is the title of the Pope? Wasn't he (Constantine) a High priest for the Pagan God the "Unconquered Sun" ? It was prophesied friend. Did he not establish the Roman Catholic Church?


Set Time & Law: Sabbath Day (Saturdays) & Passover

Mat 5:17

""Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets(Old Testament); I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

If you want to continue follow your own thoughts rather than Christ's. No scholar or Theology can give you salvation by what they think. Only God by what it is. God Bless You!

Ok, then... since you will not answer my questions, let me try this angle:

Someone approaches you on the street and says that he thinks Christ's teachings are the ones he ought to follow - and asks you for advice on which of the tens of thousands of groups who "follow Christ" he should seek for more information.

What do you tell him?

Or:

He tells you that he believes the Bible to be the inspired Word of God without error but he has problems interpreting some of it's passages - and wants some guidance on who, or what Church, teaches correct interpretation of it.

What do you tell him?

Please don't tell me that you'd tell him that the Spirit will guide him to truth. Surely we both agree that's not the answer, right?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RickJ

Ok, then...since you will not answer my questions, let me try this angle:

Someone approaches you on the street and says that he thinks Christ's teachings are the ones he ought to follow - and asks you for advice on which of the tens of thousands of groups who "follow Christ" he should seek for more information.

What do you tell him?

Or:

He tells you that he believes the Bible to be the inspired Word of God without error but he has problems interpreting some of it's passages - and wants some guidance on who, or what Church, teaches correct interpretation of it.

What do you tell him?

Please don't tell me that you'd tell him that the Spirit will guide him to truth. Surely we both agree that's not the answer, right?

---

No, I'd not tell him that the Spirit will guide him because we all know God will send him help somehow. I wouldn't tell him what I think. If he has questions about certain verses or prophecies, first I'd pray so that God can give me the wisdom to preach to that person correctly so that they may understand and show him the mate for the prophecies he's lacking in understanding. In other words, every verse has it's mate. All the answers are found in the bible but not in chronological order as we would want it. But, we also agree that we should only follow Christ and not a certain church right? Because I obviously belong to a church, but it is not because of the church itself that I attend, but because of the truth. They have never answered me without using the bible. They have even shown me why the water evaporates, through the bible.

When people leave it to what they think the Spirit is guiding them, then they just potentially add to the thousands of various interpretations. Again, see here.

So all answers are found in the Bible? Please show us where the Bible says that "all answers are in the Bible". It is, in fact, an impossibility since "the Bible" was did not even exist when the writers of what we call The New Testament were writing.

The Bible, in fact, teaches otherwise: See here. That is a fact that anyone can read for himself in the Bible.

I both agree and disagre on your last statement. Yes, we agree that the fullness of God's special revelation to mankind is in Christ, but anyone who reads the Bible cover to cover must also agree: The Bible is not (and cannot be because even it says so) the sole rule of faith for a follower of Christ. See here.

In case you have not or will not read the "see here" links, let me clarify from "your" Bible:

2 Thessalonians 2:15
" So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter."

1 Corinthians 11:2
"I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings, just as I passed them on to you."

2 Timothy 1:13-14
"What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus.Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you—guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us."

2 Timothy 2:1-2
"You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others."

The Bible is indeed the Word of God and without error, but neither Christ nor the Bible teach such an idea as "the Bible alone".