Ask Me Help Desk - Praying in church

I don't understand why this is confusing. If you believe there is a God then you can not ignore the scripture. If you read the scripture you can not chose to add things as you please. God does not say pray TO each other. He says pray FOR each other. He says Pray unto HIM. He says The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are one. He did NOT include anyone else in that list. So, it is my belief according to the scripture, that you may ask and should ask anyone you chose to pray FOR you but if you pray TO THEM you are not praying to the correct person. And correct me if I am wrong please, but I don't believe it says anywhere in the bible that the dead can hear or see anything on earth. So, although the saints and Mary may have had favor with God that doesn't mean they can hear us. Either way though it isn't against God to ask them to pray FOR us or to intercede FOR us but to pray TO THEM or worse ONLY to them, will be futile.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Forgive me as I'm not trying to stir anything up here, but I still do not understand why any Christian would ask a "saint" to intercede for us. I have yet to see any explicit example in scripture of why we should pray through Mary or anyone else.

The reasoning I find seems more of an assumption than anything else. Because Mary was "the mother of God" or "favored by God?" Because Jesus is the King of kings Mary is the "queen mother" which gives her a favored position? Because the saints are alive in spirit or because the bible says of Mary "all generations will call me blessed?"

How does any of that add up to praying through the saints, in light of the fact scripture does state explicitly to pray to "Our Father" and only tells us the Holy Spirit and Jesus himself intercede for us? And if Mary is to be bestowed with such a high honor, why is there no explicit mention of her beyond the first chapter of Acts? Jesus is the entire focus of the establishment of the church isn't he? What am I missing?

Speech,

It isn't you that is missing anything. I will never understand why anyone would pray to another sinner that had to be saved by the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ! I don't care how special or favored or good they are. For ALL have sinned... period. I go to the mighty throne of the Father because that is what the WORD teaches.( the veil is RENT) I know this goes against the Catholic teaching. I am not putting them down at all. I just think it is error to the HILT! ( I know you wanted my two cents so I gave it to you) ;)

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Forgive me as I'm not trying to stir anything up here, but I still do not understand why any Christian would ask a "saint" to intercede for us.. . What am I missing?

Sounds like a sincere question, so I'll do my best to answer it.

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Forgive me as I'm not trying to stir anything up here,

Nothing to forgive.

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but I still do not understand why any Christian would ask a "saint" to intercede for us.

Because Scripture says so. Here St. James says we must pray one for another:

James 5

16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.

Here Simon requests prayers of the Apostles:
Acts Of Apostles 8

24 Then Simon answering, said: Pray you for me to the Lord, that none of these things which you have spoken may come upon me.

And here, St. Paul requests our prayers:
1 Thessalonians 5 25 Brethren, pray for us.

And here God instructs Job's friends to ask Job to pray for them, for he will only hear Job:

Job 42 8 Take unto you therefore seven oxen, and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer for yourselves a holocaust: and my servant Job shall pray for you: his face I will accept, that folly be not imputed to you: for you have not spoken right things before me, as my servant Job hath.

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I have yet to see any explicit example in scripture of why we should pray through Mary or anyone else.

Because God has proven that He holds them in higher esteem than He does us:

Numbers 12 6 He said to them: Hear my words: if there be among you a prophet of the Lord, I will appear to him in a vision, or I will speak to him in a dream. 7 But it is not so with my servant Moses a who is most faithful in all my house: 8 For I speak to him mouth to mouth: and plainly, and not by riddles and figures doth he see the Lord. Why then were you not afraid to speak ill of my servant Moses?

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The reasoning I find seems more of an assumption than anything else. Because Mary was "the mother of God" or "favored by God?" Because Jesus is the King of kings Mary is the "queen mother" which gives her a favored position? Because the saints are alive in spirit or because the bible says of Mary "all generations will call me blessed?"

Have you ever heard of the Imitation of Jesus?

Now consider this, Mary is Jesus' mother. What does that imply? Was Jesus always self sufficient? Did He need Mary's milk to sustain Him? Did He cry to her to be fed? Did He request of her His needs?

And if GOD Himself asked Mary for His needs, why do you disdain her?

These are Spiritual truths which must be understood with the eyes of the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2 12 Now we have received not the spirit of this world, but the Spirit that is of God; that we may know the things that are given us from God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the learned words of human wisdom; but in the doctrine of the Spirit, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the sensual man perceiveth not these things that are of the Spirit of God; for it is foolishness to him, and he cannot understand, because it is spiritually examined.

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How does any of that add up to praying through the saints,

Simple, the Saints are alive in Christ. Just because they died to this world does not mean they have been extinguished. The body of Christ lives!

1 Corinthians 12 26 And if one member suffer any thing, all the members suffer with it; or if one member glory, all the members rejoice with it. 27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members of member.

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in light of the fact scripture does state explicitly to pray to "Our Father" and only tells us the Holy Spirit and Jesus himself intercede for us? And if Mary is to be bestowed with such a high honor, why is there no explicit mention of her beyond the first chapter of Acts? Jesus is the entire focus of the establishment of the church isn't he? What am I missing?

You are missing the fact that God established a family. In His Family, there are Father, Mother, Son. God did not leave us orphans. He gave us a mother:

Apocalypse 12 17 And the dragon was angry against the woman: and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Note that we are her seed, her children, who keep the commandments of God and have th testimony of Jesus Christ.

I hope that helps.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by classyT

Speech,

It isn't you that is missing anything. I will never understand why anyone would pray to another sinner that had to be saved by the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ! I don't care how special or favored or good they are. For ALL have sinned...period. I go to the mighty throne of the Father because that is what the WORD teaches.( the veil is RENT) I know this goes against the Catholic teaching. I am not putting them down at all. I just think it is error to the HILT! ( i know you wanted my two cents so i gave it to you) ;)

Actually no, it does not go against Catholic teaching that you pray directly to the Father, In fact all Catholics pray to the Father but they do so in the name of Christ, since the bible also tells us that we can not come to the Father except to Christ who is our only mediator. So we pray to the Father though his Son Jesus Chrsit. The Catholic Church does not teach to pray to anyone else, we do ask for for others to help us and pray with and for us,

Those that believe Catholics pray to anyone else have merely not learned the correct teachings of the church.

I pray to the Father. I pray to Jesus. I pray to the Holy Spirit.

When you pray in a way your giving thanks to God, Mary, to Jesus because without them there would be no religion. If the prayer is specific to just one (in most cases there is e.g. a prayer for the birth of Christ) then yes your praying to Christ. So in short, your praying to all unless the priest or the prayer book says otherwise.

Your praying to all of them actually. If the prayer says its dedicated to Mary then your praying speciffically to Mary. But in general your praying to all God, Mary, Christ, etc.

In terms of Catholicism, Fr. Chuck's last post was spot-on. Catholics pray to only to God the Father through Jesus. We ask the saints to intercede for us by praying with/for us.

It is a very comforting feeling to know that there are all these great people who have passed on before us, who can hear our pleas for help, and pray with us.

Since you asked who I pray to, I'll tell you my beliefs on the topic. I believe that Mary was a servant just like you or me. She was an amazing woman, and a real role model, yet she even says in the book of Luke that she is God's "humble servant" and does not claim to be deity. She prayed to God and thus why should we pray to someone who they themselves pray to someone else. Just cut out the middle man when you can. So who do I pray to. I believe that in a complicated way. God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one, separate, yet one complete whole being. So when I say I'm praying to God, I'm really praying to all of them. God the Father is the ruler and protector of Israel, Jesus is the Savior of Israel and the Gentiles, while the Holy Spirit is the fire that fills us with their presence. So you see they all have individual aspects yet, are still one. I know its confusing, because its confusing to explain. But in essence when I pray, I am praying to the Trinity. All three, yet one.