Most people believe that when you die, you go to either Heaven or Hell, many believe that their mom or dad or aunt Harriet is looking down on them from Heaven. Actually, most people believe that they are going to heaven because they "haven't been that bad".
The Bible says that when we die, we sleep, those that are Born again, will rise to meet Jesus in the air , but the dead in Christ will rise first. The others will be risen up after the 1000yrs of Christ's reign and then the books will be opened and the world will be judged.
Those whose name is found in the book of life, get into heaven, those that are not, are thrown into the lake of fire for ever with the devil and his angels.
As far as I can understand it, Jesus hasn't returned yet, the 1000yrs haven't passed and the books haven't been opened. So where does this teaching that when you die, you go straight to heaven come from?
1 Thessalonians 4
13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.
2 Thessalonians 1

5All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
Revelation 20
The Dead Are Judged
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Daniel 12
The End Times
1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise [a] will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge."

There is lots of other scriptures that talk about this, what do you think?

Yes they do... I believe in the after life 100% despite all the arguments and discussions, all of which will never have concrete proof.

I have no need for proof.. . seeing is believing

Dear Orphan, so do I, it's just the timing that I question. I believe what the Bible says, perhaps time is only relevant on earth, after all, a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years as one day (2 Peter 3:8).
Perhaps, when we die, it will be like a twinkling of an eye (1 Corinthians 15:50-55), in just a blink of an eye, in God's time frame, then we will be standing before the judgement seat of Christ, whether we died 2000 yrs ago or tomorrow.
If the bible is so clear on this, to my understanding anyway, why do we believe otherwise?
Cheers. :)

Peter there are other posted topics for this subject. Perhaps reading all that is offered in those would help you understand. From what I view from these question it's like hen picking from one verse to another. Reading and studying the bible in it's full, will bring forth much more understanding. You can begin knowing how these verses relate one to another many times. Rightly dividing the word is important.

Born Again:
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

1 Peter 1:22-23 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1 Peter 1:24-25 For all flesh [is] as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Heaven

Luke 16:19-27 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Ecclesiastes 12:6-7 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Hope this helps..

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Originally Posted by 0rphan

Yes they do.....i believe in the after life 100% dispite all the arguments and discussions, all of which will never have concrete proof.

I have no need for proof.. .... seeing is believing

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Hi again Peter,

I meant to say.. Yes I do believe they go to heaven.. in my rush this morning, I didn't read the whole question... Whoops! I'm sure you new that though.


I consider myself to be a christian and also very spiritual, but unlike yourself could not quote chapter and verse... I commend you for that.
I tend to live by the 10 commandments, although some would argue the point on that,I consider that what ever belief you have these apply and have stood over the years in time.

The bible has been written and re-written, some things added or taken away, many things not meant to be taken literally, but to be analized for their true meanings.

However I do read passages from the bible when I feel the need, usually for comfort in the many sad times I've had during my life.

I do pray constantly for everyone around the world, for peace and healing etc...
I know the good guy upstairs hears me, where ever I choose to do this, I no longer feel the need to go to church,the good guy is every where around us, so my church is where ever I am...

There are many questions that require answers, but some will never be found, it's what's in your heart, you can't see it or touch it... but you know it's there.

WE are not to reason why but to except and enjoy the life that has been given us... yet through the grace of God go I

Blessings

Those judged after the Millennium are only those who did not have part in the first resurrection, i.e. those who are lost. There will be no saved people in the last resurrection, and no lost people in the first resurrection.

Thanky you Sndbay, actually, I am a born again Christian, thank you for your answer, I know that I am saved, I just wondered what others thought of the timing of entering Heaven. When you die, or when Jesus returns, (that is for those that have accepted Christ as their Saviour now). And those that have to wait for the day of judgement, i.e.. The second resurrection, (thankyou Galveston1), I believe will "sleep" until then.
Thank you Orphan for your answer, you sound like a very sweet person, I believe that you are very close to the Kingdom of God, why don't you step into it. Get baptized by full immersion, like Jesus did and be filled with the Holy Ghost. He will teach you all things (1 John 2:27). Nevertheless, to be a real Christian, you need to fellowship in a community of believers, find a good church, you won't regret it.
It is good to find out things about God, good fun too, these are a few scriptures that say just this.
Proverbs 25:2
2 It is the glory of God to conceal a matter;
To search out a matter is the glory of kings.
Jeremiah 33
3 'Call to me and I will answer you and tell you great and unsearchable things you do not know.'

Isaiah 1
18 "Come now, let us reason together,"
Says the LORD.
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
They shall be as white as snow;
Though they are red as crimson,
They shall be like wool.
This is one of my most favourite scriptures in the Bible, I really neede this scripture in my life, I was really a terrible person, but, by the Grace of God, He washed me clean.
Hope you find the peace and joy that I have in Jesus, there's no way I could go back to my past life, yuk.
Find out why God has you here at this time, you have been pre-destined for a purpose, but you will never realise that purpose until you start walking in God's will for your life.
Read Ephesians 2. God bless. :)

Hey Peter Wilson! This is a good question and a good topic for discussion. We did talk about this very question not so long ago if you want to take a look at what others have said here... https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christ...ol-216214.html

You can read my response there if you'd like as it will not change even if I were to type it here.

Just to add a little something. "Sleep" was used in the Old Testament as well as the New to describe the dead because they look like they are sleeping. Therefore, I don't think equating "sleep" with a waiting period is an absolute.

Also an important thing to keep in mind is that our bodies and our spirits are not one in the same. This body is corruptible and will die. But when Jesus steps out on that cloud with a great shout the bodies of those who have died will rise first and meet their spirits incorruptible... conformed in the image of Christ... made brand new. Then those that remain (that are saved) will be called up and our bodies will be made incorruptible and brand new all in the twinkling of an eye.

Even though the current Heaven will not be our eternal heaven (New Jeruselum), there is still a heaven right now. Even though the hell now is not the eternal lake of fire there is still a hell even now. And I believe that the souls of those who have gone before us and those who will go until the Resurrection will go to their respective place upon death with no waiting.

Why would we be any different than Lazarus in Abraham's bosom or the rich man in hell, or the thief on the cross who went to paradise the day he died, or those in hell whom Jesus showed He was alive during the three days after His death?

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Originally Posted by Peter Wilson

Thanky you Sndbay, actually, I am a born again Christian, thank you for your answer, I know that I am saved, I just wondered what others thought of the timing of entering Heaven. When you die, or when Jesus returns, (that is for those that have accepted Christ as their Saviour now). And those that have to wait for the day of judgement, ie. the second ressurection, (thankyou Galveston1), I believe will "sleep" until then.

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The Scripture tell us we should eat and digest the Word of God. I feel to do this that each subject brought forth is like that hen chosen to eat. To many hens (or) subjects at one time can be difficult to digest and eat. You have mentioned several subjects in scripture posted, and it takes several replies or posting to offer scripture that can properly answer or address all of them.
Jer 15:16 Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.

And John has shown us what he was told to write. Revelation 10:8-10 And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go [and] take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth. And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take [it], and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey. And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

Galveston1 answered one of the subjects well. And I feel I replied to 2 other subjects in previous post.

________________________

As for the question concerning when will Jesus return, We don't have an answer to that... We can only eat and digest what is in the Word that was fore told to us.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Revelation offers the Word by John writing what he was shown of the present and future. That which Galveston1 spoke of is part of what John wrote.
In my opinion Matthew 24:15 is a big clue to bringing fore told what to recognize. Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand :(

We can't neglect to understand Matthew 24:32-33 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors.

~My God help you on your path..

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Originally Posted by Peter Wilson

Do dead people go to Heaven or Hell.

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Please permit me to provide some background before answering the question.

Scripture says:

2 Corinthians 5 8 But we are confident, and have a good will to be absent rather from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

And also:

Ecclesiastes 12 7 And the dust return into its earth, from whence it was, and the spirit return to God, who gave it.

In addition, Scripture says:

Hebrews 12 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

So, when one dies, one goes to the presence of God.

For those who have done God's will perfectly or have died in a state of perfect grace, being in the presence of God is Heaven.

For those who have died in an imperfect state of grace, being in the presence of God is purifying:

Proverbs 17 3 As silver is tried by fire, and gold in the furnace: so the Lord trieth the hearts.

For those who have denied God's will persistently during life, when they die they will also be in the presence of God. But for them, the presence of God will be hell:

Hebrews 10 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

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Most people believe that when you die, you go to either Heaven or Hell, many believe that their mom or dad or aunt Harriet is looking down on them from Heaven. Actually, most people believe that they are going to heaven because they "haven't been that bad". The Bible says that when we die, we sleep,

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That is a false understanding of Scripture. If we review Luke 16, the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man, we see three individuals who have passed from this life and are now in eternity. Abraham, Lazarus and the Rich Man (aka Dives). All three are depicted as souls who are awake and aware of themselves and of life on earth:

Luke 16 24 And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.

This verse alone contradicts the doctrine of "soul sleep."

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those that are Born again, will rise to meet Jesus in the air , but the dead in Christ will rise first.

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To be "dead in Christ" means that we are absent from the body and present with the Lord.

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The others will be risen up after the 1000yrs of Christ's reign and then the books will be opened and the world will be judged.
Those whose name is found in the book of life, get into heaven, those that are not, are thrown into the lake of fire for ever with the devil and his angels.
As far as I can understand it, Jesus hasn't returned yet,

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Jesus never left. He is present in the Holy Eucharist:

Matthew 26 26 And whilst they were at supper, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke: and gave to his disciples, and said: Take ye, and eat. This is my body.

He is present in His Church:

Colossians 1 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:


He is present in each of the Baptized:

1 Corinthians 12 27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members of member.

That is why Jesus said:

Matthew 28 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

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the 1000yrs haven't passed and the books haven't been opened. So where does this teaching that when you die, you go straight to heaven come from?

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From the fact that "being present with the Lord" is heaven to those of us who love Him:

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1 Thessalonians 4
13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep,

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When Scripture speaks of death as falling asleep, it is because of the attitude of the body, and does not speak of the soul. A dead body is motionless as a person who is asleep is motionless.

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or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

2 Thessalonians 1

5All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

Revelation 20
The Dead Are Judged
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Daniel 12
The End Times
1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise [a] will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge."

There is lots of other scriptures that talk about this, what do you think?

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See my comments above.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Moonlitwaves, some good points there, must admit, not really hung up about this question, just going fishin'.
De Maria, transubstantiation is not in the Bible, is is a doctrine of men, we take communion to remember what Jesus did for us. It is not the actual body and blood of Jesus.
The bread symbolizes Jesus body, which was broken for us, also those that partake of this bread partake or share in the same body. We are one as Jesus and the Father are one, and we are now one in the Spirit with both the Father and Jesus. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Jesus and the Spirit of God coming together as one, just as in marriage, husband and wife make one new flesh. That's why the figure of marriage is used between Jesus and the Church. Wherever the Holy Spirit is, Jesus is there, and the Father also.
Now both Jesus and the Father invite us to partake of the Holy Spirit and they that believe, are baptized into the Holy Spirit. Indeed, the body of true believers on earth, are the body of the Holy Spirit, so to speak.
When we partake of the grape juice, we are, in effect , making an agreement with God that we accept the new agreement (covenant) written in Christ's blood. If we drink it unworthily, then we bring judgement on ourselves. Cheers :)

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Originally Posted by De Maria

To be "dead in Christ" means that we are absent from the body and present with the Lord.

De Maria

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My opinion holds to scripture saying

Roman 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

My opinion holds to scripture saying

Roman 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

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That is true. But I wasn't commenting on Romans 8:10 but on 1 Thess 4:15.

What is the difference?

Romans 8:10 speaks of the living person, like you and I who have died to sin and are alive in Christ. But we are still in this world.

Whereas 1 Thess 4;15 speaks to those who have passed to the next world. They remain dead, because their bodies have died, but they remain in Christ because their Soul remains alive.

So, my opinion also holds to Scripture.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by Peter Wilson

....
De Maria, transubstantiation is not in the Bible, is is a doctrine of men, we take communion to remember what Jesus did for us. It is not the actual body and blood of Jesus.
The bread symbolizes Jesus body, which was broken for us, also those that partake of this bread partake or share in the same body. We are one as Jesus and the Father are one, and we are now one in the Spirit with both the Father and Jesus. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Jesus and the Spirit of God coming together as one, just as in marriage, husband and wife make one new flesh. that's why the figure of marriage is used between Jesus and the Church. Wherever the Holy Spirit is, Jesus is there, and the Father also.
Now both Jesus and the Father invite us to partake of the Holy Spirit and they that believe, are baptized into the Holy Spirit. Indeed, the body of true believers on earth, are the body of the Holy Spirit, so to speak.
When we partake of the grape juice, we are, in effect , making an agreement with God that we accept the new agreement (covenant) written in Christ's blood. If we drink it unworthily, then we bring judgement on ourselves. Cheers :)

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That isn't what Scripture says however. Jesus is explicit that the bread which He leaves is His Flesh. That is Transubstantiation. He didn't say it is a symbol of His Flesh. He said it is His Flesh and He repeated it several times:

John 6 52 If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world.

So, although the word "Transubstantiation" is not in the Bible. The Bible explains the concept very well:

1 Corinthians 10 16 The chalice of benediction, which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? And the bread, which we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord?

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by De Maria

1 Corinthians 10 16 The chalice of benediction, which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? And the bread, which we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord?


De Maria

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Yes indeed they are!! Remember also that Christ' body and blood is not something that will forsake us or ever leave us. The disciples found it difficult to eat = (digest)= (take in) until Jesus exampled the meaning of the His body and blood in John 6:63.

My God open those ears to hear what is being said in the posting of this message of Thy word I pray.Amen

John 6:52 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
John6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
John 6:59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum
John 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
John 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
John 6:62 What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

This is interesting, I heard it years ago, the story is very interesting. What do you think.
YouTube - REAL sounds of hell prank call

I believe that when you die you go to heaven or hell --no soul sleep
Because for one when you leave this earth you go to eternity which has no time so it does get confusing to me. Jesus told the thief on the cross today you will be with me in Paradise which suggests to me that you do not lay in the grave for the end. Also the verse to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Also there is the verse about the world becoming strangely dim when you go from one glory to the next (or something to that effect)

I think that sleep in the Bible is referring more to the body and not the soul and spirit.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Yes indeed they are!! Remember also that Christ' body and blood is not something that will forsake us or ever leave us. The disciples found it difficult to eat = (digest)= (take in) until Jesus exampled the meaning of the His body and blood in John 6:63.

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That is true. Some of the disciples found it difficult to digest that they must actually chew on the Body of Christ in order to be saved.

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My God open those ears to hear what is being said in the posting of this message of Thy word I pray.Amen

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Thank you for the prayer. God will answer it in a way which you don't expect.

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John 6:52 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
John6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
John 6:59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum
John 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
John 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
John 6:62 What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

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Your explanation has not been quite clearly expressed. However, I assume what you are saying is what many other Protestants have said in the past. You believe that by saying that the "spirit quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothihng", Jesus explained that He was speaking metaphorically.

If that is what you believe, I ask you to look a little more closely at the verses. Notice that Jesus, throughout the discourse, spoke of HIS flesh.

John 6 52 If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world.

John 6 54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.

John 6 55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

John 6 56 For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed.

John 6 57 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him.

Suddenly in verse 64, He speaks of THE FLESH:

64 It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life.

Now we know that Christ's Flesh availeth much. For Christ became flesh in order to save us. Therefore, whose flesh is it the availeth nothing? Not Christ's.

Matthew 26 41 Watch ye, and pray that ye enter not into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh weak.

Is Christ's flesh weak? No, ours is.

Romans 7 5 For when we were in the flesh, the passions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members, to bring forth fruit unto death.

Is Christ's flesh sinful? No, ours is.

So, what did Christ mean, "THE flesh availeth nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life."

He means, that our flesh will die and become dust, but our souls will live if we accept the words He has spoken to us.

And what words had He just spoken:

John 6 55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

May God bless you with understanding for your sincere prayer.

Sincerely,

De Maria

My belief holds Christ as spiritual speaking through the Father. The scripture John 6:63 is confirmed in Greek as a direct answer by Christ Himself to His own question.

John 6:63 It is 2076 the spirit 4151 that quickeneth 2227 ; the flesh 4561 3756 profiteth 5623 nothing 3762: the words 4487 that 3739 I 1473 speak 2980 unto you 5213, [they] are 2076 spirit 4151, and 2532 [they] are 2076 life 2222.

Spirit 4151 = pneuma πνεῦμα : Greek meaning = the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son a) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the "Holy" Spirit) b) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of "Truth")

that quickeneth 2227 = zoopoieo ζῳοποιέω : Greek meaning = 1) to produce alive, begat or bear living young 2) to cause to live, make alive, give life a) by spiritual power to arouse and invigorate b) to restore to life c) to give increase of life: thus of physical life d) of the spirit, quickening as respects the spirit, endued with new and greater powers of life 3) metaph. of seeds quickened into life, i.e. germinating, springing up, growing

3756 = οu οὐ Greek meaning = 1) no, not; in direct questions expecting an affirmative answer


1 Corinthians 10:3-4 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

______________________________________________

Christ as Son of Man

John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. 29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

1 Peter 4:11 If any man speak, [let him speak] as the oracles of God; if any man minister, [let him do it] as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

~Rejoice

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Originally Posted by sndbay

My belief holds Christ as spiritual speaking through the Father. The scripture John 6:63 is confirmed in Greek as a direct answer by Christ Himself to His own question.

John 6:63 It is 2076 the spirit 4151 that quickeneth 2227 ; the flesh 4561 3756 profiteth 5623 nothing 3762: the words 4487 that 3739 I 1473 speak 2980 unto you 5213, [they] are 2076 spirit 4151, and 2532 [they] are 2076 life 2222.

Spirit 4151 = pneuma πνεῦμα : Greek meaning = the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son a) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the "Holy" Spirit) b) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of "Truth")

that quickeneth 2227 = zoopoieo ζῳοποιέω : Greek meaning = 1) to produce alive, begat or bear living young 2) to cause to live, make alive, give life a) by spiritual power to arouse and invigorate b) to restore to life c) to give increase of life: thus of physical life d) of the spirit, quickening as respects the spirit, endued with new and greater powers of life 3) metaph., of seeds quickened into life, i.e. germinating, springing up, growing

3756 = οu οὐ Greek meaning = 1) no, not; in direct questions expecting an affirmative answer


1 Corinthians 10:3-4 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

______________________________________________

Christ as Son of Man

John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. 29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

1 Peter 4:11 If any man speak, [let him speak] as the oracles of God; if any man minister, [let him do it] as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

~Rejoice

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Nowhere in any of this do I see a denial that we must Eat His Flesh to live eternally. Please highlight it if that is what you meant to do.

Sincerely,

De Maria

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

Christ = Son oF Man

John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. 29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

1 Peter 4:11 If any man speak, [let him speak] as the oracles of God; if any man minister, [let him do it] as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Nowhere in any of this do I see a denial that we must Eat His Flesh to live eternally. Please highlight it if that is what you meant to do.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Christ was speaking metaphorically.. John 6 52 If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world.

We agree that Christ sacrificed His body.. There is a metaphorically meaning in the difference, and again I state that Christ, Himself made that clear to the disciples in John 6:63.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Christ was speaking metaphorically.. John 6 52 If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world.

We agree that Christ sacrificed His body.. There is a metaphorically meaning in the difference, and again I state that Christ, Himself made that clear to the disciples in John 6:63.

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Lets look at the Bread of Life discourse again.

Do you see where the Disciples understand Him literally?

John 6 61 Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who can hear it?

Did Jesus say, "No, no, I am speaking metaphorically?"

No, He didn't. He said:

62 But Jesus, knowing in himself, that his disciples murmured at this, said to them: Doth this scandalize you? 63 If then you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

What does this mean? You said it before, He is revealing that He is God. He is saying, "If you understood that I am God, you would believe it."

And then He makes the distinction between THE flesh and His flesh which I mentioned befiore.

And fnally He challenged the Apostles to leave:
68 Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away?

But they don't go. Why? Because, although they don't understand, they believe He is the Son of God:
69 And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 70 And we have believed and have known, that thou art the Christ, the Son of God.

That is the test even today. We step by faith and not by sight. Do you believe that Jesus is God? Then why don't you believe His Word?

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Christ was speaking metaphorically.. John 6 52 If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world.

We agree that Christ sacrificed His body.. There is a metaphorically meaning in the difference, and again I state that Christ, Himself made that clear to the disciples in John 6:63.

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Yep. In John 6, Jesus says that it is those who thought that He was speaking of real flesh that betrayed Him.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Yep. In John 6, Jesus says that it is those who thought that He was speaking of real flesh that betrayed Him.

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They are also the ones that thought Jesus came to uphold traditions and set up an earthly kingdom.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Yep. In John 6, Jesus says that it is those who thought that He was speaking of real flesh that betrayed Him.

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Where?

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Originally Posted by De Maria

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Yep. In John 6, Jesus says that it is those who thought that He was speaking of real flesh that betrayed Him.

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Where?

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John 6:60-64
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. NKJV

Now Jesus now says that the flesh profits nothing. This appears contrary to verses 53-4 that state that we need to eat his flesh and drink his blood, and if we do, we receive eternal life, but then Jesus clarifies by stating that Jesus says that the words are the spirit and the life. This is why it is important to continue on and read the full context because Jesus has just struck to the very heart of the doctrine of transubstantiation by saying that the flesh does not profit us at all. Rather He says, that the life comes from the spirit, not the flesh and it is the words that bring the spirit.

Words = spirit = life, Flesh does not profit anything.

This is in harmony with what Jesus said in Matthew chapter 4:

Matt 4:3-4
3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. KJV

It is God's word that brings life and the spirit, not eating the flesh. Therefore, even if the bread were changed to flesh, there would be no benefit from eating it. Now, remember earlier in this document, it was noted that human flesh and blood do perish and yet the bread that Jesus offered did not perish? Here is the explanation. Jesus was not speaking of bread, or of blood or of flesh but was speaking of the words of God which bring life. God word and the life which comes from God's word (the Gospel) are eternal. Bread, flesh and blood are perishable, but God's word and salvation which comes from receiving the gospel are eternal.

64a But there are some of you who do not believe.

Some do not believe that the flesh profits nothing rather and thus do not believe that it is His words that give the spirit and life. If they do not believe that the flesh profits nothing, then they must believe that it is the flesh rather than His words that He is speaking about.

64b For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

And some as a result, they will betray him.

63 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." 64 But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

The Apostles remain true and believe that the flesh profits nothing but rather believe in His words for the spirit and life. What could be the words that Jesus speaks which bring life? It is the words of truth, the truth of who He is, the truth or why He came to earth in the flesh and the words that give us the truth of the gospel, the only words which can bring us eternal life. Thos who believed that He was speaking about the actual eating of flesh and drinking of blood missed the point of the gospel and were not saved. Those who stayed understood that without a sacrifice and without the shedding of blood, their was no remission of sins, and that Jesus was the lamb of God, sent to be the ultimate sacrifice, the only sacrifice which could actually take away sins and restore us to a right relationship with God.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tj3

John 6:60-64
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. NKJV

Now Jesus now says that the flesh profits nothing. This appears contrary to verses 53-4 that state that we need to eat his flesh and drink his blood, and if we do, we receive eternal life, but then Jesus clarifies by stating that Jesus says that the words are the spirit and the life. This is why it is important to continue on and read the full context because Jesus has just struck to the very heart of the doctrine of transubstantiation by saying that the flesh does not profit us at all. Rather He says, that the life comes from the spirit, not the flesh and it is the words that bring the spirit.

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Look at it again. Notice how He distinguishes between "His Flesh" and "the flesh"

Jesus never says, "my" flesh profits nothing. He says "the" flesh profits nothing.

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Words = spirit = life, Flesh does not profit anything.

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You skipped an important point here. Jesus says, His words are spirit and life. Which words? The ones He has just spoken.

John 6 56 For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. 57 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him.

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This is in harmony with what Jesus said in Matthew chapter 4:

Matt 4:3-4
3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. KJV

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It certainly is.

First, man does not live by bread alone. Therefore Jesus provided His Flesh.
Second, it is the Word of God made flesh that we eat.

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It is God's word that brings life and the spirit, not eating the flesh.

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Of course not. But it is the eating of His Flesh which brings life and spirit. Your flesh avails naught. My flesh avails naught. Only Christ's Flesh avails much because it is He who took flesh for the salvation of the world.

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Therefore, even if the bread were changed to flesh, there would be no benefit from eating it.

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Of course you are correct. If bread were changed to beef or if bread were changed to TJ's flesh. There would be no benefit whatsoever.

But since the bread was changed by the Word of God to His Son's Flesh, then it avails much indeed.

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Now, remember earlier in this document, it was noted that human flesh and blood do perish and yet the bread that Jesus offered did not perish? Here is the explanation. Jesus was not speaking of bread, or of blood or of flesh but was speaking of the words of God which bring life. God word and the life which comes from God's word (the Gospel) are eternal. Bread, flesh and blood are perishable, but God's word and salvation which comes from receiving the gospel are eternal.

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But Jesus Flesh and Blood are not perishable:
Acts Of Apostles 13 35 And therefore, in another place also, he saith: Thou shalt not suffer thy holy one to see corruption.

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64a But there are some of you who do not believe.

Some do not believe that the flesh profits nothing rather and thus do not believe that it is His words that give the spirit and life. If they do not believe that the flesh profits nothing, then they must believe that it is the flesh rather than His words that He is speaking about.

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That is a false interpretation of this Scripture. Some do not believe that Jesus gives us His Flesh and Blood as real food and drink unto life eternal.

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64b For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

And some as a result, they will betray him.

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This is specifically about Judas.

72 Now he meant Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon: for this same was about to betray him, whereas he was one of the twelve.

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63 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." 64 But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

The Apostles remain true and believe that the flesh profits nothing but rather believe in His words for the spirit and life.

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That doesn't even make sense. The disciples who believed that Jesus was speaking left because they did not believe that Jesus Flesh profiteth unto eternal life. That is why they said, it is a hard saying.

Obviously, the Apostles believed that Jesus Flesh availeth much.

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What could be the words that Jesus speaks which bring life? It is the words of truth, the truth of who He is, the truth or why He came to earth in the flesh and the words that give us the truth of the gospel, the only words which can bring us eternal life.

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Of course but in this context it is the words He just spoke. He just said that His Flesh is real food and that we must eat His Flesh if we want life eternal.

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Thos who believed that He was speaking about the actual eating of flesh and drinking of blood missed the point of the gospel and were not saved.

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No, you've missed the point. Those who understood but could not believe that He was speaking of His Flesh were the ones who were not saved.

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Those who stayed understood that without a sacrifice and without the shedding of blood, their was no remission of sins, and that Jesus was the lamb of God, sent to be the ultimate sacrifice, the only sacrifice which could actually take away sins and restore us to a right relationship with God.

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And what happens to the sacrifice of the paschal Lamb?

Exodus 12 4 But if the number be less than may suffice to eat the lamb, he shall take unto him his neighbour that joineth to his house, according to the number of souls which may be enough to eat the lamb.

And what is Jesus?
1 Corinthians 5 7 Purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new paste, as you are unleavened. For Christ our pasch is sacrificed.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Look at it again. Notice how He distinguishes between "His Flesh" and "the flesh"
Jesus never says, "my" flesh profits nothing. He says "the" flesh profits nothing.

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The same word for "the" is used in describing "the Spirit". Are you saying that "the spirit" is generic spirit that gives life? Be consistent!

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You skipped an important point here. Jesus says, His words are spirit and life. Which words? The ones He has just spoken.

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So you ignore all His other words? On what basis?On what basis do you reject and ignore His explanation of what He meant?

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This is specifically about Judas.

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Read more carefully. This passage refers to "some". Verse 71 refers to Judas:

John 6:70-71
70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?" 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
NKJV

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Originally Posted by Tj3

The same word for "the" is used in describing "the Spirit". Are you saying that "the spirit" is generic spirit that gives life? Be consistent!

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In the discourse, did Jesus ever mention His Spirit? No? Then you know that when He speaks of THE Spirit, He is speaking of a particular Spirit. Can you guess which?

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So you ignore all His other words? On what basis?On what basis do you reject and ignore His explanation of what He meant?

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On the contrary, I take all His words into account. His words are spirit and life.

Quote:

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Read more carefully. This passage refers to "some". Verse 71 refers to Judas:

John 6:70-71
70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?" 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
NKJV

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65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning, who they were that did not believe, and who he was, that would betray him.

It also refers to who he was that would betray Him.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Quote:

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Originally Posted by De Maria

In the discourse, did Jesus ever mention His Spirit? No? Then you know that when He speaks of THE Spirit, He is speaking of a particular Spirit. Can you guess which?

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So you are saying that it is just anyone's spirit that gives life then - is that right?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by De Maria

It also refers to who he was that would betray Him.

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Verse 72 is referring to verse 71. Read the whole thing, not just pieces.

The reason for the passover meal was to remember the Lord's covering of the blood when the destroying Angel killed all the first born of Egypt. It was the beginning of the deliverance of Israel. The bread and wine represented the passover lamb and the blood on the doorposts. It was done in remembrance of God's salvation.
Jesus comes as our passover lamb, we do this to remember what He has done for us, He is not sacrificed weekly, He died once, for all. This is what we remember, not some religious sacrement or tradition. It is a tradition,but not a religious one, but it is to remind us, that we have a new testament, written in His blood, for without His body and blood, and ultimate death, we would have no new will and testament.
1 Corinthians 11
The Lord's Supper
23For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread;
24and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me."

25In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

26For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes.

27Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord.

28But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup.

Cheers. :)

Thank you Nohelp4u, I'm sure we share the same Spirit, Bless you. :)

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Originally Posted by Tj3

So you are saying that it is just anyone's spirit that gives life then - is that right?

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No. Here's what I asked:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by De Maria
In the discourse, did Jesus ever mention His Spirit? No? Then you know that when He speaks of THE Spirit, He is speaking of a particular Spirit. Can you guess which?

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I am astounded that you can't guess which Spirit is THE Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit gives life. Do you deny it?

John 6 64 It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life.

Matthew 4 1 Then Jesus was led by the spirit into the desert, to be tempted by the devil.

Matthew 12 31 Therefore I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but the blasphemy of the Spirit shall not be forgiven.

Romans 8 4 That the justification of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to THE flesh, but according to the spirit.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Verse 72 is referring to verse 71. Read the whole thing, not just pieces.

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Are you doing this to avoid admitting that you are wrong?

Here's how this particular exchange began:

Quote:

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You posted #27 which said, amongst other things:
64b For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

And some as a result, they will betray him.

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I posted #28 where I dissected message #27 and I said:

Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:
64b For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

And some as a result, they will betray him.

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This is specifically about Judas.

72 Now he meant Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon: for this same was about to betray him, whereas he was one of the twelve.

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Now, 64b says, "and who would betray Him." Obviously this refers to Judas and verse 72 confirms that it refers to Judas.

So, please, divide the word rightly.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by Peter Wilson

The reason for the passover meal was to remember the Lord's covering of the blood when the destroying Angel killed all the first born of Egypt. It was the beginning of the deliverance of Israel. The bread and wine represented the passover lamb and the blood on the doorposts. It was done in remembrance of God's salvation.
Jesus comes as our passover lamb, we do this to remember what He has done for us, He is not sacrificed weekly, He died once, for all.

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Correct. Who sacrifices Jesus weekly?

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This is what we remember, not some religious sacrement or tradition.

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Do you remember it every year? Has this been passed down for centuries? Then by what stretch of the imagination is this NOT a tradition?

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It is a tradition,

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Ok, this is getting confusing. Didn't you just say,
This is what we remember, not some religous sacrement or tradition.

So, please explain, if you don't remember any traditions, how do you remember this one?

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but not a religious one,

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What does religious mean to you? Because to me it means:
# concerned with sacred matters or religion or the church; "religious texts"; "a member of a religious order"; "lords temporal and spiritual...
# having or showing belief in and reverence for a deity; "a religious man"; "religious attitude"
# of or relating to clergy bound by monastic vows; "the religious or regular clergy conducts the service"
# a member of a religious order who is bound by vows of poverty and chastity and obedience
# extremely scrupulous and conscientious; "religious in observing the rules of health"
Wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

In what sense is this not a sacred matter? In what sense is this not concerned with belief in God?

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but it is to remind us, that we have a new testament, written in His blood, for without His body and blood, and ultimate death, we would have no new will and testament.

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So, you only do it for yourself but not in obedience to God because you love God:
John 14 23 Jesus answered, and said to him: If any one love me, he will keep my word,

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1 Corinthians 11
The Lord's Supper
23For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread;
24and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me."

25In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

26For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes.

27Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord.

28But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup.

Cheers. :)

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This verse tends to substantiate my argument. Perhaps you could highlight where you believe it substantiates yours.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by De Maria

I am astounded that you can't guess which Spirit is THE Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit.

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Right - just as when the same verse speaks of "the flesh" (using the same word for "the" in Greek) it means Jesus' flesh (as we can also discern from the context).

That was my point.

You were trying to suggest that "the flesh" meant something different because of the use of the word "the", leaving the impression that you were denying that it is the Holy Spirit who gives life.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Are you doing this to avoid admitting that you are wrong?

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Nice try, but a clear reading of John 6 says that verse 72 is referring to verse 71 - no matter how you try to wiggle out of it.

John 6:62-71
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65

Note how the reference to those (plural) who would betray Him by not believing that the flesh referred to His word is here all in one single sentence - so it cannot be separated as a separate though without so thoroughly twisting so as to make the passage un-recognizable from the original text. Nor can one rightly claim that one half of the sentence belongs with verse 72.

As for the latter part of the passage, it would be a serious mangling of the whole chapter to try to make verse 72 refer to anything but verse 71.

70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?" 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
NKJV

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Right - just as when the same verse speaks of "the flesh" (using the same word for "the" in Greek) it means Jesus' flesh (as we can also discern from the context).

That was my point.

You were trying to suggest that "the flesh" meant something different because of the use of the word "the", leaving the impression that you were denying that it is the Holy Spirit who gives life.

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The term THE flesh is also commonly used in Scripture. And THE flesh does not speak of Jesus flesh unless it modifies it explicitly such as, "the flesh of the son of Man".

Here are some examples:
John 8 15 You judge according to the flesh: I judge not any man.

Romans 7 5 For when we were in the flesh, the passions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members, to bring forth fruit unto death.

Romans 8 1 There is now therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh.

2 Corinthians 1 17 Whereas then I was thus minded, did I use lightness? Or, the things that I purpose, do I purpose according to the flesh, that there should be with me, It is, and It is not?

Sincerely,

De Maria