Why did Jesus cried out to the Lord on the cross when he knew very well that it had to happen in order that the Scripture could be fulfilled ?
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Why did Jesus cried out to the Lord on the cross when he knew very well that it had to happen in order that the Scripture could be fulfilled ?
Because he was human. It is not easy to die. He expressed himself as any human would. He also showed us the meaning of surrender when he said "into your hands I commend my spirit." So ultimately he understood that God's plan is the only plan that truly matters.
Yes Rusty answers well.
Also consider this peters01alm... Jesus said "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" See God was with Jesus always during His time on earth. God had to turn away so that Jesus could die. Jesus felt that difference. God was with Him then He wasn't. It's a big difference, one in which Jesus had never felt before and so it is understandable that He felt that way and cried out. Who wouldn't?
The real person that the "Jesus Christ" of Paul and other religious revisionists was modeled after taught that the *Kingdom of Heaven* was on earth! He was a Jewish man, a teacher on spiritual matters TO JEWS. He did not want to start a new religion, Paul did!
His remarks on the cross are of the most poignant in human history...
Lets break it down into 5 pointsQuote:
Originally Posted by RustyFairmount
1. was Jesus really human in the many senses that we understand humanity today? Is he not a member of the Holy Trinity ? I mean the miraculous events associated with Him should not be only understood as mere symbolism but they could have actually happened in reality... I guess our Saviour had a divine Soul in a Human body.
2. it may be easy to die , it does not have to be a terrible experience.
3. Being the son of a virgin and bred by a carpenter he could have had an opportunity to " express" himself in remarkable human ways - He Himself was a carpenter until 3 years before His death.
4. surrender to whom God or the Roman soldiers ?
5. Jesus knew and understood God's plan even before His mother knew she was pregnant with the Son of God - HOLY TRINITY.
It is understandable that any normal human being would have felt the pain and asked for God's intervention. That God at any point / rate abondened His only begotten Son to the mercy of the Roman soldiers is a little tricky because He ( God ) and Jesus together planned the events of that day. In order that you and I could be saved from eternal sin. I think Jesus never really told anyone why He said those words. In fact anyone who thought and rightly believed that He was Joseph's son might have not understood the real meaning of the words.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonlitWaves
O, now you've got me going (metaphysically speaking).
Jesus quoted prophetic scriptures that he believed he was fulfilling.
On the cross, his 'My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me' is direct
From Psalm 22. It was common practice to refer to the meaning of a
Familiar passage of scripture by means of its first phrase.
In addition, the evidence is that he was reciting the whole Psalm,
Perhaps as a kind of mantra to keep focused on the Father despite
Feeling separated. Matthew 27:45 indicates via 'darkness' the
Commencement of the judgement/separation. Verse 46 is his loud (public)
Utterance, the "My God!...". The next verses indicate a period
Before his physical death. Verse 50 "Jesus cried out again with a loud
voice, and then yielded up his spirit".
I think that is amplified by John 19:28-30. Verse 30 "It is finished"
(tetelestai in greek, could also be interpreted in the middle voice
Rather than the passive, "He has accomplished it Himself, fully")...
Which is quoting the final verse of Psalm 22: 31B. From verse 22
Onward, that Psalm had switched from despair to faith, hope, and
victory.
A curious person might wonder why the full story is split between two
Accounts, Matthew and John. A practical note is that John happened to
Be the closest to Jesus at the cross (John19:26)... so that final
Utterance, perhaps less distinct due to physical exhaustion, might have
Been understood only to him.
Finally, back in Matthew27:51, we see the symbol of separation between
God and man being removed (the curtain in the temple barring entrance
To the Holy-of-Holies). This is the accomplishment of the sacrifice.
And next, resurrection of the dead. Clear enough symbologies.
There are numerous documented examples of humans who have died in what we would assume to be painful ways, yet because of their faith (or some other spiritual grace or ability of which we normals are ignorant) they have not suffered as we would.
I think it is safe to assume that Jesus would be chief amongst this category of saints.
Moreover, an orthodox interpretation assumes that the 'blood of Christ that
Cleanses from all sin' was not his literal physical blood being
Spilled... his throat was not slit like the old jewish animal
Sacrifices, he did not bleed to death... by analogy, his death
Sacrifice occurred on the spiritual level. Blood is a symbol of
Life-Essence, and so his spiritual death on the cross is equivalent to
Separation-from-TheLifeSource, i.e. God-the-Father. (only a minority of
Very literalminded fundamentalists think it is talking about physical
Blood). My contemplations have been to attempt to understand something
More of the meaning/purpose of 'sacrifice' at that spiritual level.
OK, now 'he is finished' :-) . Thanks for your interest!
THOMAS
He was reminding the Jews of the prophecy that the Messiah must die:Quote:
Originally Posted by peters01alm
Matthew 16 21 From that time Jesus began to shew to his disciples, that he must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the ancients and scribes and chief priests, and be put to death, and the third day rise again.
And He did so by quoting a famous Psalm:
Psalms 21 2 O God my God, look upon me: why hast thou forsaken me? Far from my salvation are the words of my sins.
Note how the Psalm goes on to describe Jesus' passion:
17 For many dogs have encompassed me: the council of the malignant hath besieged me. They have dug my hands and feet. 18 They have numbered all my bones. And they have looked and stared upon me. 19 They parted my garments amongst them; and upon my vesture they cast lots. 20 But thou, O Lord, remove not thy help to a distance from me; look towards my defence.
Sincerely,
So , the physical death was not important but the purpose thereof ?
Excellent! Is there a book to which you could refer me?Quote:
Originally Posted by tx2346
Sincerely,
God spared Abraham of sacrificing his son. Maybe Jesus thought they He too would be spared.
That 's possible , if your jesus was just another jewish preacher who did not descend onto this earth with a special divine mission - to save all humanity from eternal sin.
Jesus was still human in earthly form. He was suffering from all the sin, every sin we have and every sin not even committed yet were all put upon him, The pain must have been unbearable. And in the end, we can try to over think and study things, the fact we should remember is that he did die and rise from the dead, and that it was that event that has saved us from our sins by our trust and faith in him. So often we have to remember the event, not worry about how it could have been or try to anything more than having faith in it.
Jesus was still human in earthly form.
He could still have looked , acted , behaved - did He marry anybody/anything ?- and of course died human to humans who witnessed it all. Some sources , the Bible in particular , teaches us that He did not have a human father. Furthermore , certain critics claim that Mary was and remained a VIRGIN after Jesus's birth:confused:
I thought Jesus was God?Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyFairmount
[QUOTE= Furthermore , certain critics claim that Mary was and remained a VIRGIN after Jesus's birth:confused:[/QUOTE]
Mark 3:31-32
Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call Him. A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, "Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you."
He also had sisters, I'll look for the scripture.
Mark 6:1-3
Jesus left there and went to his hometown, accompanied by his disciples... Many who heard Him were amazed.
"Where did this man get these things?" they asked. "What's this wisdom that has been given Him, that he even does miracles! Isn't this the carpenter? Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.
He cried out when God had removed His presence from Jesus and placed our sins full on Him.
[QUOTE=Choux]The real person that the "Jesus Christ" of Paul and other religious revisionists was modeled after taught that the *Kingdom of Heaven* was on earth! He was a Jewish man, a teacher on spiritual matters TO JEWS. He did not want to start a new religion, Paul did!
I have seen this before, but is is simply not so.
1. Jesus did not say that the Kingdom of Heaven WAS on Earth. If so, why did He teach to pray for that Kingdom to come? That Kingdom will be on Earth when Jesus returns and rules as King.
Here is what He said:
Luke 17:20-21
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! Or, lo there! For, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. (Not within the Pharisees, but within the believers.)
(KJV)
2. Paul did not start a new religion.
Gal 2:1-2
1 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.
2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.
(KJV)
Gal 2:6-7
6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:
7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
(KJV)
Paul had a conference with the Elders at Jeursalem to determine if he was preaching the same gospel that they were. He was!
Even the Apostle Peter recognized the writings of Paul as being "scripture".
2 Pet 3:15-16
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
(KJV)
Note the comparison that Peter makes between Paul's writings and "OTHER scriptkures.
It is absured to claim that Paul was a revisionist and detached from the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Now how did that smiley get in there?
Quote:
Originally Posted by peters01alm
We do not know if he got married or not, there is no mention of him getting married, so it is doubtful, If he did, that would not change his purpose and message.
True he had no human father, we also do not know for sure if Mary and Josehp ever had sex after Jesus birth, one would assume ( guess ) that they did, as it does speak of Jesus brothers and sisters, ( some say this was Josephs childrn from an earlier marriage, but they are not mentioned in the early stories of jesus birth either.( But in the aspect of the bible, it does not matter if she did or if she did not, since it is not her but Jesus that the message is about
Are we talking about a historical Jesus or a hypothetical one here. If you answered historical then why would the information surrounding such a respectable man's daily life be so sketchy ? We can't just assume premises for the sake of a desirable conclusion ! I mean only the intellect like yourself seem to understand the HIDDEN messages that form the bulk of the 4 Gospels. HELP me TO UNDERSTAND WHY THAT IS SO ? I should or at least anyone should be able to understand everything that's in the Bible without having to got to college first. Paul does not seem to refer to Jesus as a historical fact but only that God showed him His Love for mankind through the Spiritual Jesus. I stand to be corrected on these folks !Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
Jesus after his birth to a virgin was in human form, he felt pain, he felt hunger, and he felt all the temptations man feels.
So on the cross while his spirit was God, his body was human. And the Romans were very good at their jobs at giving pain, and I understand from science studies, death on a cross would be a hard death.
Also what those non or anti christian forget is that beyond the earthly pain of death, his death also took on all of the pain of all of the sins of all people, not just those of that day but all sins forever.
So he felt the pain of murder, pain of the theft all the pain of ever sin.
The horror of that pain is not even possible to imagine.
The reason for his death is the need to sacrifice for our sins, in the old testement the need was for a bull or a lamb or a bird to die for the sins we did that year. But now because of Christs dead for us, all we need to do is claim his death for our sins.
Serious question, because I know believers always think us non-believers are being sarcastic. But I don't mean this as disrespectful at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
Why do you suppose God has such a fixation with blood, torture and sacrifice? Doesn't that seem a little morbid to you? I mean, why not just forgive our sins? He's God after all. Do you think that's beyond His capabilities? Why send Himself down to earth to be tortured?
Also, if Jesus HAD to be tortured so we could be forgiven, then what do you suppose would have happened if Pontius Pilate ordered Jesus to be spared instead of executed? Now would the entirety of humanity be unable to go to heaven? Or do you think Ponius Pilate was set up by God? Lastly, I'm genuinely curious if you think about any of this stuff at all, or just believe it carte blanche?
Lob,
God does not have a fixation with blood, torture or sacrifice, he just does nothing about those things (okay so that was a cheap shot) truth is, man has the fixation. God never required sacrifice, he required mercy, those were Jesus’ words not my own. Jesus quoted the Hebrew text of Hosea where God supposedly demands acknowledgment instead of sacrifice. It is absolutely absurd in the light of Jesus’ words and use of that scripture to place Jesus as a sacrifice for sin. Truth is they do not know their bible well, they use it to defend their beliefs instead of trying to understand them. Jesus is in there but badly misrepresented by the Apostolic processes.
Most Christians whether Protestant or Catholic have been sold a bad bill of goods, they have turned their brains off and accepted dogma for truth, they are good at justifying what they believe despite the truth. They truly think about these things but have been conditioned, and socialized into their religion. Believing the right thing is made conditional upon their acceptance from their families and social groups. It is dysfunctional as all get out and hypocritical to the bone but they cannot see it. I have met a few Christians who have taken the time to deconstruct and reconstruct, those guys are good. I have learned a lot from them. Jesus is pretty cool once you get to know him, and I don’t mean that in some weird holy spirit/metaphysical way. You just have to learn to read between the lines.
Peace.
Relevant good questions there! I was bothered by the one about the crucifixion because I think it also forms one of the pillars of modern christianity
The Romans did not like the trouble makers either especially in an important city like Jerusalem. Some scholarly sources tell us that the Romans would respond with extreme violence to anyone who seemed to disrupt public peace and that's what happened to Jesus when He visited the temple in Jerusalem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
This is very exiting! I do not mean this in a disrespectable manner or anything of that sort but does he drive a sexy sports car and maybe smokes Cuban cigars ? Did you also went to go college to learn the art of reading between the lines. I wish I could see the world through your eyes ! Can you please elaborate on this as its sounds pretty cool ! :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyv
No problem I love serious questions and to be honest, it is merely because that is the way God is. Sorry, part of the issues is that belief and accepting God is done by accepting God. The bible only tells us what God requires, not why. I do beelive that all things were made to happen, the bible tells us that the blind man was blind so that the glory of God would be shown. So I believe this time and place ( why was it not 1000 years earlier, or 1000 years latter ) so the time and place in my opinoin ( and again it is merely mine) is that yes, all things were put into place so that it would all happen according to scripture.Quote:
Originally Posted by lobrobster
I don't believe there was the actual need for the torture of Christ, that sadly was just part of the way Romans did things at the time. But then do our or other governments do a lot less in their own ways today to political or army enemies?
The real issue was that the punishment was to be death, and perhaps it was done as a way that people of that time could and would understand.
As it was all under the old testement ( remember Christ came during the old testment law and it was only after his death that the issues charged from the agreement of the old testment to a new agreement)
So by sending his Son, he did not require the death of any other person or our own for it.
My understanding is that the Romans were very very good at torture and death. And to control the population punishment was fast and hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by peters01alm
I think Jesus would have drove a compact if he were here today, not one to go to the extreme.
You mean He is not HERE today ? Wow this is something else now ! Lets get it on!Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
Yes, Satan as the prince of the earth has his way with most so that is why many today do have an attitude to "get it on" and don't want to follow the morals of God's law.
He is here in Spirit with all the beleivers, even the beleivers that do drive sports car
Seriously ? I hope the Spiritual part is true because then I can see why so many wannabe christians go through all the pain to try and understand the man Jesus. Is it not possible then that the story of crucifixion is only a parable like so many others and that we should not crack our brains but just go with the real meaning thereof ?
The story of the crucifixion is not a parable, it is the main theme of the entire bible, the OT builds up to it, and the NT proclaims it.
But now since Christ lives in and with all of us beleivers, you can buy me that convertible and I will drive it, so Christ can be in it also,
You're spot on here. The whole idea of sacrificial death as being necessary for reconciliation with God is perverse. It was Jesus' LIFE that showed us the Father and reconciled us to him. His death was the natural result of human cruelty and hate, nothing more.Quote:
Originally Posted by lobrobster
Any sources you consulted that you could refer me to ? It seems we are dealing with dimensions here. If Jesus really asked God to rescue Him from these acts of human brutality then it is safe to conclude that He was not a descendant of God and could only have been a prophet like many who came before Him. My goodness I'm not saying that He prophecised about the messiah or anything , I heard HE mentioned some stuff about the end of the current epoch ! Mind boggling stuff I mean, or yes maybe the messiah will descend from the heavens in our lifetime! 2012 , yes the well informed say THINGS unseen in this world before will happen , coincidence ?Quote:
Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
I've always suspected that the crucifixion was indeed the main theme and set out to try and gather the whole truth around that crucial event in Jesus life. If the Roman soldiers acted otherwise and saved Him , would we even be having this thread ? What would have happened to all those prophecies we find in the OT ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
MARK . MATTHEW, LUKE AND JOHN 'S Jesus would have refused such luxury since He was a man with a humble disposition and always stood by the poor and oppressed.
Needs to put more details thanks
I have no doubt that if there were cigars in the first century Jesus would have been a smoker of the best cuban cigars hand rolled off the thighs of the finest Cuban women... Only, it wouldn't have been Cuba back then:D
Jesus would have ridden a horse like John Wayne, ride a motorcycle like Steve McQueen, and driven a car like Morgan Freeman.
Smiles everyone, smiles!
Scotty
Yes, there are sources that support this view e.g. The Urantia Book, but that's not why I believe it. There are sources to support all kinds of views. What it comes down to for me is what kind of God am I willing to believe in. A God who demands the suffering and death of an innocent being in order to be reconciled to His children is not one I am willing to accept. If it turns out that I'm wrong, I can live with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by peters01alm
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