Yeah I know, I just forgot why he came down again. Wasn't it something to do with our sins? :confused: :confused:

Yes.

John 3:16-21
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
NKJV

Hi Cedric,

Yes, Jesus said He was God when He said, "Before Abraham, I AM". The name of God, YahWeh, is translated, "I AM". Therefore, when Jesus called Himself, "I AM", He called Himself God. Jesus used this name in reference to Himself several times:

It may seem unlikely to you that Jesus meant He is God simply because He said, "I AM". But the Jews of His time understood exactly what He said. Look at how they responded:

John 8

58 Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am.
59 They took up stones therefore to cast at him. But Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple.

They took up stones to stone Him. Stoning was the punishment for blasphemy. They understood that He had called Himself God:


John 10

32 Jesus answered them: Many good works I have shewed you from my Father; for which of these works do you stone me? 33 The Jews answered him: For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, maketh thyself God.


In fact, that is the reason that they crucified Him:

Matthew 26

65 Then the high priests rent his garments, saying: He hath blasphemed; what further need have we of witnesses? Behold, now you have heard the blasphemy:

Mark 14

64 You have heard the blasphemy. What think you? Who all condemned him to be guilty of death.

Luke 22

71 And they said: What need we any further testimony? For we ourselves have heard it from his own mouth.

Sincerely,

De Maria

The majority of Bible evidence supports the clear point that Jesus Christ is NOT God. He never was, he still is not, and he never will be. Not only that, but the Bible rather points out the simple truth that Jesus Christ is a being that was created, one that had a beginning. The scriptural evidence and support for this is found in scriptures such as Colossians 1:15 and also Revelation 3:14 (in which Jesus is clearly described as 'the beginning of the creation by God'). Common sense dictates that a being who has a creation, who has a beginning cannot be equal to their creator.

In addition, in reading the gospel accounts of Jesus' life, everything he did was in keeping with the will of his father, the very same God and father he stated "....is greater than I". Jesus made repeated statements that his teachings did not come from his own originality, but from the one who sent him. Jesus' own apostles did not believe him to be, nor did they preach to anyone else, that he was God, but rather the Son of God. Further, in the gospel accounts, Jesus' encountered individuals who were possessed by demons (wicked angels who sided with Satan in his rebellion against God) and in these encounters, they too (as Jesus' own enemies) stated that Jesus was not God himself, but rather God's son.

Faulty Bible translations, such as the King James version, will twist and contort original Greek and Hebrew texts into fitting the false, God-dishonoring teaching of the trinity. Upon close examination of the original texts and reading the contexts of various Bible passages, one can clearly see that Jesus Christ is NOT God, and he NEVER claimed to be.

Additionally, other Bible passages such as in Matthew 28 state that Jesus had been "given" all authority in heaven and on earth. If Jesus were God, he would already have such authority and would have no need to have it given to him from anyone else. His own words show that he received such authority from a higher source. Also, at Jesus' own baptism, God's voice was heard from heaven and it said "this is my son the beloved, whom I have approved". Think: If Jesus' were God, why would he have to approve himself? No, he would not. That would not make any sense.

Also, in the headship arrangement outlined in 1 Corinthians, the head of the woman is the man, the head of the man is the Christ, and the head of the Christ is God. If Jesus were God, he would have no head over him. But with Jesus NOT being God, Jesus himself is subject to a higher authority, the one who is both his God and Father.

From my understanding the original text can't be found, no longer exist, and/or was destroyed. But besides that, it really comes down to faith. Faith that God will give us the correct understanding of His Word if we truly want it and do not block His way with our own understanding.


The important thing is to read with an open heart and mind and allow God to show us truth. Though it is great to discuss, be taught and teach/spread the Word, that should not be what we solely rely on. We are not doing as we should if we do not study those things we discussed or was taught for ourselves. As I said Cedrik, it is great to ask questions and discuss, but more importantly you should allow God to show you personally the answers to your questions in conjunction with the replies from those you speak to on the matter.

These arguments were refuted in our last go around.

Col 1:15
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
NKJV

The word used for firstborn in the original Greek is used to designate pre-eminence.

And how you think that this says anything about Jesus being created, I do not know:

Rev 3:14
14 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write,
'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:
NKJV

The word used here for beginning is "arche". Scholars agree that the intent of this word is "first cause" or "One who begins".

According to Phil 2:8, He humbled Himself (indicated that He was already in exalted) to be a man, and as God canme to earth manifest in the flesh (1 Tim 3:16). In order to live as a perfect man and thus to be qualified to be our sacrifice on the cross, He has to live a perfectly obedient life as a man, and thus submitted Himself to God the Father as all men should, making Him superior in rank, or "greater" than Him.

Faulty? Care to share with us your qualifications for declaring it faulty? And while you are at it, care to share with us the qualifications of the men who originally translated the NWT?

Except that by His own authority, He humbled Himself to come to earth as a man. Subsequently, though, he took up the glory as God that He had with the Father from before the creation of the earth (John 17:5).

Many who believe that Jesus Christ is God have difficulty explaining why he is called the Son of God. Logic suggests that he cannot be both. Others think of Jesus as an important historical character, a wise man, or perhaps even a bona fide prophet of God, but nothing more. What does the Bible really teach? Does it matter what you believe?

God's Firstborn

The Bible indicates that there was a time when God was alone. In his love he decided to share the gift of life by becoming a father—but not in the human sense. Rather, Jehovah used his unfathomable creative power to form a living, intelligent spirit person—“the beginning of the creation by God,” whom we now know as Jesus Christ. (Revelation 3:14; Proverbs 8:22) Because Jesus was directly created by God when God was all alone, Jesus is rightly called the “only-begotten son” and “the firstborn of all creation.”—John 1:14; Colossians 1:15.

Clearly, then, as the very first of God's creations, Jesus could not be the Creator, “the only God.” (1 Timothy 1:17) On the other hand, God granted his Son many privileges. For example, through Jesus, God created “all other things,” including even the angels. These angels are referred to as “sons of God”—Jehovah being their Life-Giver as well.—Colossians 1:16; Job 1:6; 38:7.

After preparing the earth for human habitation, God, apparently speaking to his firstborn Son, said: “Let us make man in our image.” (Genesis 1:26; Proverbs 8:22-31) Thus, Jehovah also created the first human son of God, Adam, through the spirit creature who would become Jesus.—Luke 3:38.

Jesus Becomes a Human Son of God

The apostle John reveals that at the appointed time, God's spirit Son “became flesh and resided among us.” (John 1:14) In order to accomplish this change in Jesus' nature, God miraculously transferred Jesus' life from heaven into the womb of the Jewish virgin girl Mary. In that way Jesus remained God's Son, even though a human. Furthermore, since God, not any man, gave Jesus life, Jesus was born perfect, without sin. “What is born will be called holy, God's Son,” said the angel Gabriel to Mary.—Luke 1:35; Hebrews 7:26.

A confirmation of Jesus' sonship while in the flesh came from the Father himself. At the time of Jesus' baptism, John the Baptizer witnessed the heavens open up and heard a voice from heaven say: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.” (Matthew 3:16, 17) No wonder John told his disciples: “I have seen it, and I have borne witness that this one is the Son of God.”—John 1:34.

During his earthly ministry, Jesus did not trumpet the fact that he was the Messiah, the Son of God. (Mark 8:29, 30) He often allowed people to draw that conclusion for themselves by listening to his teachings, by observing his way of life, and by witnessing his many miracles, most of which were performed in public view. For example, he cured “all those faring badly, distressed with various diseases and torments.” (Matthew 4:24, 25; 7:28, 29; 12:15) The blind, the deaf, the lame, and the diseased all came to Jesus, and he healed them. He even raised the dead! (Matthew 11:4-6) Before the eyes of his disciples, Jesus miraculously walked on water and calmed the winds and waves during a fierce storm. This display of power moved the disciples to say: “You are really God's Son.”—Matthew 14:24-33.


As can be VERY clearly seen, the Bible itself refutes those who errantly put Jesus on equal footing with God.

Phil 2:5-9
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
NKJV

Heb 1:8
8 But to the Son He says:
"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
NKJV

John 20:28-29
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
NKJV

The son of man is man, the Son of God is God. Light from Light, true God from true God.

As you said, most of the time, Jesus let them draw the conclusion themselves. And what conclusion did they draw?

John 20 28 Thomas answered, and said to him: My Lord, and my God.

John 5 18 Hereupon therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he did not only break the sabbath, but also said God was his Father, making himself equal to God.

John 10 33 The Jews answered him: For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, maketh thyself God.

Philippians 2 6 Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

2 Peter 1 1 Simon Peter, servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained equal faith with us in the justice of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ.

So, the contemporaries of Jesus knew that He had called Himself God.

That means His adversaries, who crucified for the blasphemous idea that He could be God.

And His followers, who after observing His miracles and signs and learning His doctrine came to believe that He is God.

His followers, amongst whom Jesus established a Church have carried His memory and His teachings throughout the world from that time until today.

2000 years later, you come around and claim to have a better understanding of His Word than they?

Sorry. I'll believe God's Church.

Sincerely,

De Maria

You just keep repeating the same thing over and over without addressing the point raised to refute your claims.

Phil 2:5-10

5 Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. 7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men. 8 More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake. 9 For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Hebrews 1:8

But with reference to the Son: “God is your throne forever and ever, and [the] scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.

John 20:28-30

28 In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him: “Because you have seen me have you believed? Happy are those who do not see and yet believe.”
30 To be sure, Jesus performed many other signs also before the disciples, which are not written down in this scroll. 31 But these have been written down that YOU may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that, because of believing, YOU may have life by means of his name.

I note that you omitted the fact that you quote from the Jehovah's Witness's New World Translation (NWT).

Like I asked before (and you did not answer), tell us the name of one single person qualified to translate the Bible who was on the original NWT translating committee.

I find their translation of Hebrews 1:8 especially humorous - God is a chair?

I will Warn everyone to keep thier comments proper and civil toward each other, Even if you are not the same relgiion or faith, we will not name call, and not attack others for thier faith or lack there of. Posts that cross that line will be delted