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    SmilingInside's Avatar
    SmilingInside Posts: 182, Reputation: 3
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    #1

    Oct 30, 2011, 04:38 PM
    Is hoarding a normal childhood phase?
    I have a 4 year old daughter. She has started to pack several backpacks, bags, purses, boxes, etc and take them around wherever she goes. She packs items like toys, paper, writing utensils... mainly her things, not really anything like trash or anything dangerous or strange.

    Whenever we go somewhere in the car, she has to take these things with her. It's always an argument and having to get her to choose one or 2 bags.

    She does not like it when anyone touches her bags. She knows everything she has in the bags. She gets very sensitive about the stuff. I try to be OK with it and not demand she get rid of it, I don't want to make things worse. But I also don't want to make it worse by doing the wrong things, or by doing nothing when I should be doing SOMETHING.

    She has recently began to keep 'snacks'. This is what worries me the most-a bag of goldfish, a couple slices of bread, a bag of pretzels. The latest thing though was some soup. She actually took the soup I made her for lunch and put it in one of her bags. I just don't understand this, she has access to food, we have regular meals together, there's no lack of food or limited access to food in the least. I have explained to her time and again why she can't keep food in her bags, she pretty much shuts down and cries when I try to explain why food is not OK to keep in her bags.

    I can't fathom a reason for it, nothing remotely truamatic has happened to her, no big changes recently.

    Could this just be a phase? Is this within normal limits? Do lots of kids do this for a time? What can I do here at home to maybe try to ease her out of this behavior? I don't have health insurance or the money for a psychologist, so please, don't suggest that. If I had the money I'd already have been to the doctor. It's just not an option right now.
    Fr_Chuck's Avatar
    Fr_Chuck Posts: 81,301, Reputation: 7692
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    #2

    Oct 30, 2011, 05:11 PM
    Sorry , who is the parent and who is running the house.

    A small bag of things to play with when she is on a trip should be done, but not packing for extreme.

    So she melts down, 2 year olds melt down over many things, if you set rules, give time outs or other punishment if she does keep food outside the kitchen, you should break the habit
    jenniepepsi's Avatar
    jenniepepsi Posts: 4,042, Reputation: 533
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    #3

    Oct 30, 2011, 06:06 PM
    Yes it is normal. Unless something has made her anxious. Have you guys moved recently? Is she maybe afraid you may move in the near future? Have you talked about moving without realizing she could hear you?

    But definitely do not allow her to keep food in these bags. She has the explanation, quit explaining it to her and simply make sure it is done. She is 4. there is no reason she should be able to do this if you do not allow it.


    Rather than be hateful and rude about it to her though, I would suggest that you explain she may have her things in her bag, but YOU will keep the snacks in YOUR bag (purse) and that you will keep them safe for her.

    Also, sit down, and talk to her. And I don't mean the kind of 'parent to kid' talks. I mean sit down and LISTEN to her, really listen, don't interrupt (hard I know! I'm a parent too!) don't question her motives and just try to listen, and see if you can understand, from a 4 year olds point of veiw, why she wants to do this.

    It may be for no other reason than she likes to. And that is a good reason for her, maybe not for you, but for her.

    The point is, keep the levels of communications open. Yes, lay down the law as the parent, and make sure she understands, and follows the rule. But don't make it sound like its some HUGE GIGANTIC transgression. Because really, the only rule she has broken here, is arguing with you about whether she can have the food in her bag.
    SmilingInside's Avatar
    SmilingInside Posts: 182, Reputation: 3
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    #4

    Oct 31, 2011, 08:44 PM
    Jennie,

    I have been wracking my brain trying to think of even the slightest thing that may have triggered this, I'm not coming up with anyhting.

    I guess it concerns me a lot because it seems to have progressed so quickly into what seems like an obsession with these bags. OK, whe I say she takes them around with her, I mean a small 4 year old child carrying what amounts to a basically a large storage tub amount of things in various bags, baskets and boxes. She will take her things from room to room with her through the day. It seems like it's progressing at a daily rate now.

    OK, yesterday she began putting our cat into her drawer under her bed. I don't know if this is related, but it seems to be. It was like she did it once, and then couldn't stop doing it more and more times. I'll be watching this closely, as of course I don't want anything to happen to the cat, and I'm sure the cat doesn't like it, and it's kind of bizarre to me. I hope maybe it was just a one-day thing and won't happen again, but who knows.

    She is very smart and cunning, she can manage to be very sneaky with things like squirreling away food here and there. I catch her often, but there's times when she definitely outsmarts me, and I mean, I'm on guard, so it's pretty amazing. This is also why I was worried, because she has found weaknesses and exploited them to be able to continue developing and growing these behaviors.

    When I say she brings the bags with her, and also in the car, she never uses the stuff in the bags. It's not like she puts her favorite things in there to play with. No. The bags just come, there is no playing with or using the items. The bags stay closed up.

    Let me describe the shutting down better as well. It's not really like a typical tantrum or fit, with kicking and screaming. It's like true sadnes and fear. I don't know why, we don't ever really yell and we never use physical punishment. We are very close and affectionate.

    I'll post back in a few days if anyhting changes. I'm going to go through and start getting rid of some things little by little, I think a drastic clean-out would do more harm than good.
    jenniepepsi's Avatar
    jenniepepsi Posts: 4,042, Reputation: 533
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    #5

    Oct 31, 2011, 09:46 PM
    With the better descriptions, have you had her evaluated by a psychiatrist? It almost sounds like she is having typical autistic meltdowns like my daughter has. Not just fits. Have you thought about asking her pediatrician about having her evaluated? If she is extremely obsessive over this, it may be OCD or anxiety of some kind
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #6

    Oct 31, 2011, 09:46 PM
    Your daughter may be showing signs of OCD which is leading into hoarding. An article I found (COMPULSIVE HOARDING) says that "compulsive hoarding is more common in females in all age groups. Childhood onset is the norm with one study showing that 66% began hoarding in childhood..."

    Yes, a child psychologist is the place to go (but one familiar with childhood hoarding is difficult to find). Meanwhile, empathize with (don't question) her regarding her desire to accumulate and save things and how that makes her feel. And you are correct. A drastic clean-out would definitely do more harm than good.

    Be sure to read this article (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder: Children Who Hoard). A young mother researched what might be causing her son's hoarding problem and ended up giving him Inositol, "a powder form of vitamin B [that] helps replace the serotonin back into the brain." Check with your pharmacist and do your own careful Internet searching to learn more on how this works.
    Mommi's Avatar
    Mommi Posts: 42, Reputation: 9
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    #7

    Nov 1, 2011, 11:55 AM
    I used to hoard a bit as a child. My parents curbed it for me by strictly enforcing that the "hoarding bags" stayed in my closet, where I could find them. That way I couldn't hide food in them as easily. Perhaps the drawer where she was placing her cat could be her, "secret stash" and so long as it doesn't exceed the drawer, and there is no food, then she can have whatever she wants in there. Not sure if it will work for you, but it helped me.
    SmilingInside's Avatar
    SmilingInside Posts: 182, Reputation: 3
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    #8

    Nov 4, 2011, 05:51 AM
    Thanks to everyone for the advice and the links with information. I've been reading more and more about it, and also I'm still looking at anything that might be going on around her to cause her any anxiety.

    We took a half-day of just me and her and did things she liked to do, and it made a huge difference. I tried to talk to her just a little bit here and there, just asking questions, and eventually I was able to get her to tlak to me more freely about her feelings. I mean, no major breakthrough or anyhitng, but the experience made me see that maybe she feels like she's not getting enough attention, which is possible... it's not that I don't try to give her enough, I'm just thinking she may have vastly different needs than my other child (I tried to treat them equally in this regard-probably a mistake). They did seem to have the same needs for a while, but I guess as the younger one grew up she just becamse a very different little person, perhaps I had not adjusted accoringly. Things had been normal up until right around when she turned 4, so maybe it's just her age and needs changing.


    Still not an easy spot, I don't want to end up making my other child feel bad, so I still don't know exactly what to do, but I'm going to keep reading on the OCD subject and anxiety while trying to employ some things on my own, see if we can make any improvement and if not, then to see a Dr.

    PS: I gave Chuck an unhelpful rating because, well, he was. The answer was just fired off, without even really reading or understanding my post. I also found it insulting. Who hasn't heard that answer before? But I'm talking about what seems to me as an extraordinary situation in which an extreme response may cause more harm than good. As most of you have remarked, anxiety seems to be a good idea of the cause of this, so to take an extreme measure and punish the child for this behavior would just heighten anxiety. That's why I came here, I know how to discipline children, but this was a case in which I knew there was more going on. Bad advice, IMO.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #9

    Nov 4, 2011, 08:01 AM
    Regarding the anxiety possibility -- maybe since she can't "have" as much of you in her life as she would like, she instead gathers together "stuff" that she CAN "have" and treasure and keep around her, stuff that becomes a substitute for you.

    That stuff has become what psychology calls a transitional object replacing you.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort_object

    Your spending time with her is the perfect solution. At this age, she looks to adults for modeling her own behavior. Show her how and then let her help you fold freshly-laundered clothes, towels, etc.; put her to work emptying wastebaskets and doing light dusting; let her help you make cookies or brownies (yes, she can do stuff).

    Go to your local library and check out some books on four- and five-year-olds (649.1, parenting) -- for instance, Louise Bates Ames' Your four-year-old: wild and wonderful.
    SmilingInside's Avatar
    SmilingInside Posts: 182, Reputation: 3
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    #10

    Nov 4, 2011, 12:55 PM
    Thanks, Wondergirl! This is really starting to come together, with all the help you guys have given me. Maybe it's NOT as big of a deal as I thought, although it's still a more extreme case due to how far it's progressed.

    You know, I do (and did) always try to involve her in whatever I was doing, but she's not interested in that stuff. My other child is, but not this one. Maybe it's a growth towards independence, maybe she's being a little defiant to separate herself from her sister. With the success of the one-on-one time, maybe we will just continue with that as much as possible.

    I actually DID get her to rather painlessly get rid of some things yesterday and today, which was great.


    She's still trying to hoard the cat thoguh, as soon as I saw her do that the first time I kind of knew it was related! However, we've got her OK with just having the cat in her room for short periods. It's a struggle, and I have to check literally every 15 minutes, but I think it'll work out OK.

    Thanks agaain, and I will keep checking back, both for your posts and to update you.
    JudyKayTee's Avatar
    JudyKayTee Posts: 46,503, Reputation: 4600
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    #11

    Nov 4, 2011, 01:57 PM
    I'd be concerned about stuffing the cat into the drawer under the bed. Does she have the idea that this is a living, breathing creature that feels pain?

    I did read the articles on childhood hoarding (great info from WG) but the cat thing disturbs me on a different level.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #12

    Nov 4, 2011, 02:14 PM
    Yeah, I agree, Judy. Time to do a transitional object swap from the living cat to a stuffed animal, preferably not a cat... maybe a stuffed elephant.
    Mommi's Avatar
    Mommi Posts: 42, Reputation: 9
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    #13

    Nov 7, 2011, 07:48 PM
    The transitional object sounds like a great idea to me. I know you said funds are tight. Is buying a new one an option? I'm thinking one that she can pick out herself. If not, does she already have a favorite stuffed animal or pillow? Talk to her about how the stuffed animal/pillow is always willing to listen and play with her, and let it become "alive" for her. My 2 y/o feeds his stuffed animal and talks to it, and I can tell him, "baby, I have to do [X] right now, I'm sure Oliphant would like to play." and off he goes. It may not fit your comfort style though.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #14

    Nov 7, 2011, 08:03 PM
    Even use an old white sock and stuff it, draw with a marker or sew on felt pieces to make a face and ears. Let her help you to make it "hers." Get feedback from her for a happy face, eye color, etc. Even make a family of stuffed sock animals that have different moods with a sad face, mad face, etc. Let them all live in the drawer.

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