I have deleted 2 allegations about commercial dog chow. They were inserted into a threads that were neither appropriate for such, or for me to challenge them there. Time after time I have challenged people on their allegations against commercial dog and advocating alternative diets. I always ask for real proof to their allegations. What I get is proof of what is on the labels of any bag of dog food, plus anecdotal evidence, and links to sites full of emotional appeal and hyperventilating over ingredients. Is it asking for just one controlled study proving the allegations? No, that is not how the junk science behind it all works. Maybe a vet here and there believes in it, but the AVMA condemns it along with the FDA and the CDC. Until you can post something here more than allegations proved by baseless allegations, please refrain from sticking your allegations in inappropriate threads.

One of the more extensive and objective web sites I have seen on dog nutrition is Woodhaven Labradors Training-Nutrition Articles (http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/articles2.html#nutrition) It has to be objective since I disagree with part of what they say. It is a huge site, and I have only poked around the edges. All I know about them is what I have read on the site. It has links to many other sites it would take weeks to ferret out who is behind them and what agenda they may have. I really like to know something about who is behind a website. That is why I often post links to organizations such as AVMA or AKC. I at least know who is behind them and their agendas and what filters I need to run their information through. I don't know anything about the sites Woodhaven links to discussing dogs on the BARF diet suddenly dying of pancreitus.

So if you have proof, lets see it here. If not, quit bringing it up in threads on other subjects.

Kiseil5 Dog hit by car, spoiled with human food may 23 2007. You posted to me and I quote " under the rules of the site, everybody is entitled to post their opinion. Everybody else is entitled to post factual rebuttals." end quote So as of may 31, this no longer holds true?. lol simply because it was an opinion that differs on yours about dog food... unbelievable... "glad it wasn't my post... but pawsdogdaycare... and what is more interesting you removed it and did not post it on his/her post that you had removed it. And you insinuate that it was for you to challenge... I think not... I haven't seen this person recommend the barf diet... but I did see them mentioning that people that feed their dogs people food makes them overweight so Labman lets be fair. Leave the chicken wing comment in there. May America continued to be blessed with freedom of speech. Have a nice day

You have missed my point. It only drags the thread off topic when somebody posts controversial material in a thread having little to do their point. If people want to debate alternative diets, they are free to do so. I don't think it is helpful to inject debate on them into every thread. The chicken bone thread is better off without challenges to unprovable slams on commercial dog chow. I am not going to leave unscientific allegations go unchallenged. You think I don't have the right to disagree with what I have good cause to see as nonsense? This thread is about proof of the danger of commercial dog chow. Got any?

No ima oprah follower... i say let people feed their dogs what they want and stop trying to be a dicator and rude to everyone.. people are so damn afraid to stand up to your nasty snide comments... now remove this, i have sen you get off topic in many threads.. but you ignore your bad behavior. Fwhen i agree with you im woman enough to say it and when i disagree i say that as well . By the way who injects them in every thread... prove that statement. By the way good dialouge makes people pay attention... and sometimes people learn something from things , they research, talk to their vets... etc.. stp trying to be so controlling. It makes them think esp. if there is a little conflict in opinions... not the same hum drum every thread... oh labman ur the alpha you know everything thanks sweety babe... boring people tune that crap out and don't bother researching anything whether it be dog food ,breeding, choke chains spaying and neutering.. etc i'm done so now you can delete it or whatever you choose you are the moderator after all... p.s your even disrespectfull to a super moderator infering that he caused a new member to stop posting, how you maintain your alpha position i don't know

Everybody is entitled to their opinion. I think the above damages you more than me.

Interesting, and I do love a challenge.. So labman I will accept this debate and let's see where it goes... As for the chicken bone comment.. The poor woman's dog had eaten a chicken bone.. and was worried about possible negative effects or her pets health.. by pointing out that a raw chicken bone is nutritious and that she should not worry was not the advocation of a specific diet.. it was an opinion and directed to ease her worry, as there are people.. many in fact that do feed raw food... (which is their choice).. Not trying to steer the topic at the point just alleviate the woman's concerns.. but if you choose to engage in this topic.. I will gladly banter with you here.. good day sir, pawsdogdaycare..

Since we have asked for a factual basis.. let's first consider business economics... the price of beef...

At this time last year, live cattle traded at 64 cents per pound; now it's just over a dollar. And retail prices at some stores have shot up about 40 cents per pound.

Now let's compare that to the price of dog food..

In dog food, sales at discounters rose 31.3% in dollars and 26.8% in volume, as reflected in an average price increase of 1 cent per pound,[/COLOR] InfoScan reported. Conversely, dollar volume at supermarkets fell 1.7% in dollars and 0.5% in pounds, reflecting a 1 cent decline in average price. Largely on the strength of Wal-Mart's private label 'Ol Roy brand, private label dry dog food accounted for $196 million of the $323.7 million total attributed to discounters.

The basic economics of this equation do not add up.. Which would lead one to believe that the quantity of beef in commercial food is dropping and or the quality.. as well as substituting with other ingredients to keep the cost and a nominal rate for the consumer..
(ie.. they are using less beef) which means that the protein content required by the FDA to commercially market dogfood would have been to low...
So the bean counters at the pet food manufactures came up with a brillaint idea... let's add more grain.. but use grain that has been laced with melamine.. which boosts the protein content of the food.. below you will find the definition of the chemical and it's use..

Expert Chemical Analysis Inc. (ECA) has responded to the growing need for testing animal and human foods for the toxic chemicals: melamine and cyanuric acid. Melamine and cyanuric acid are industrial chemicals that have been used as additives to boost the apparent protein content of high protein grain products that have been imported to be used in animal food products.

Now what's very interesting is no sooner did this happen than pets started suffering ill effects...

By the end of March, veterinary organizations reported more than 100 pet deaths amongst nearly 500 cases of kidney failure[1], and experts expected the death toll to number in the thousands, with one online database already self-reporting as many as 3,600 deaths as of April 11.[7][2][3] The U.S. Food and Drug Administration has received reports of approximately 8500 animal deaths, including at least 1950 cats and 2200 dogs who have died after eating contaminated food.

The recalled Brands..

Prescription Diet m/d Feline Dry Food (FDA Press Release, March 30, 2007)
Hill's Pet Nutrition, Inc. Select Science Diet Savory Cuts Cat Food (March 17, 2007)

Nestlé Purina PetCare Company
Alpo® Brand Prime Cuts In Gravy Canned Dog Food (March 30, 2007)
Mighty Dog® 5.3 Ounce Pouch Products (March 16, 2007)
Sunshine Mills, Inc.

Sunshine Mills, Inc. Issues Voluntary Nationwide Recall of Certain Branded and Private Label Branded Dog Biscuits (April 5, 2007)

Natural Balance Pet Foods, Inc.
Natural Balance Pet Foods, Inc. Issues A Voluntary Nationwide Recall on Specific Venison Dog and Cat Food Products (April 17, 2007)

Cereal Byproducts Company
Cereal Byproducts Company Announces the Voluntary Nationwide Recall of Rice Protein Concentrate Produced in China (May 4, 2007)

Royal Canin USA
Eight Sensible Choice Dry Dog Food Products, Seven Kasco Dry Dog And Cat Food Products Recalled Nationwide by Royal Canin USA (May 11, 2007)
Royal Canin USA Announces the Voluntary Nationwide Recall of its Dry Pet Food Products Containing Rice Protein Concentrate (April 19, 2007)

CJ Foods
Blue Buffalo Company Announces Voluntary Recall of One Production Run of Spa Select Kitten Dry Food (April 19, 2007)

SmartPak
SmartPak Canine Voluntarily Recalls LiveSmart Adult Lamb and Brown Rice Formula (May 3, 2007)
SmartPak Canine Voluntarily Recalls LiveSmart Weight Management Formula (April 25, 2007)
LiveSmart Weight Management Chicken and Brown Rice Recall (April 20, 2007)

Chenango Valley Pet Foods
Chenango Valley Pet Foods Expands Voluntary Nationwide Recall of Certain Pet Foods (May 17, 2007)
Chenango Valley Pet Foods Issues Voluntarily Nationwide Recall of Certain Pet Foods (April 26, 2007)

American Nutrition, Inc.
American Nutrition, Inc. Issues Voluntary Recall (April 26, 2007)
Blue Buffalo Company, Ltd Issues Nationwide Recall of "Blue" Canned Dog Foods, "Blue Spa Select" Canned Cat Foods and "Blue" Dog Treats Manufactured at American Nutrition, Inc. (April 27, 2007)
Sierra Pet Products, LLC Issues Nationwide Recall of "Harmony Farms" Canned Dog Foods, "Harmony Farms" Canned Cat Foods and "Harmony Farms" Dog Treats Manufactured at American Nutrition, Inc. (April 27, 2007)
Natural Balance Pet Foods, Inc. Recalls Products in Response to American Nutrition Inc. Pet Food Recall (April 27, 2007)
Diamond Pet Food Withdraws Products in Response to American Nutrition Inc. Pet Food Recall (April 26, 2007)

Diamond Pet Food
Nutra Nuggets 40 Lb. Lamb Meal and Rice Formula Recalled Due to Cross Contamination (May 23, 2007)

and growing...

Simple economics... the price of all the supplies have increased dramatically, yet the cost of the end product has only increased nominally..
Petroleum products which are use to produce, the ink, the clear plastic freshness liner in the bags.. as well as fuel the trucks that deliver supplies, meaning shipping prices increased.. (fuel prices have increase by nearly 60% since last year)

The cost of paper- which is used to make the bags.. the cost of electricity which is used to process and manufacture the products,
The cost of steel-which is used to manufacture the canned varieties.. combined with a 40 cent minimum wage increase in the state of Florida alone.. Meaning drivers, baggers, stockers, etc get paid more.. yet the cost of dog food has only risen slightly..

One would have to ask how this is possible.. it's easy when the quality of the products has been reduced, or supplemented with cheaper available alternatives with no concern for the well being of the pets...

I will continue this banter later, I have to close the daycare for the evening.. till morning.. where will will address or attempt to address if there is any factual basis to the health benefits of one vs the other...

It would seem that the BARF diet by default would be considered safer than commercial dog foods. I haven't heard of 8500 deaths attributed to Barf diet. Perhaps if you had allowed an open discussion on diets some of the owners of the 8500 dogs that died would have opted for a different diet for their dogs. Open discussion is always preferable to censorship. MrPippin

I have and will continue to delete material that will result in hijacking threads that have nothing to do with diets for the purpose of advocating alternative diets. You are free to post your unscientific views condemned by the AVMA, FDA, CDC, and most veterinarians elsewhere.

Pawsdaycare, did you read the rules as I suggested? You seemed to have missed #5. I gave you a pass on #9 because you were new.

5. Do not post content that is significantly equivalent to content found elsewhere on the internet if it can be linked to.

9. Do not advertise or spam. You are welcome to include information and links in your signature to a reasonable extent, but do not advertise in posts.

This was found at

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/announcements/


Please ask your questions here on the public boards rather than Private Messaging individual members.

We have numerous knowledgible members and experts online at various times, so posting your question(s) on the forum assures you that someone will see it faster than sending to someone via PM.

In addition, some members just don't use Private Messaging.

If you PM a member a question it may or may not be answerd, or even seen.

Thank you.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion. I think the above damages you more than me.
Bravo... you may be right... ask me if I care what people think of me.. I'll sleep good tonight... knowing that I'm honest with my opinion and don't ask anyone to stroke my ego by agreeing with me... now don't stop posting threads because of this Labman or people may blame me and want me to say I'm sorry to you. OK sweety have a nice night talk to you tomorrow

Dream on gal. I am made of tougher stuff. Over the years I have outlasted many people with no respect for others training and experience.

I ran poor doc will off or so you said... anyway... I was hoping... ".shucks". p.s I have agreed with most of the stuff you say... just not how you belittle people. Most of us are not traning service dogs and hell some of the people just want to throw a bowl of "chow "at their dog, pet them, and call it a day. Some people like me want to pull them out of pounds and off the streets and put some meat on their bones and love and do the best we know how by them. And you have to get so pissy when someone ask simple question or disagree's with you. And start accusing them of breeding and overfeeding, and being brainless and just palin old stupid... because we have not been trained by your fancy dog school (Which I'm sure your great at) or spent 8 yrs in college becoming a vet. That's my problem with you boy. I think I have gotten my point across so I'll bid this thread adios. Go grab me some cats have them spayed/ or neutered try and find them a home and leave you alone. I'll feed my (spayed andneutered) dogs ( my Way) and play with them take'm for walks and rides. But remember I'll be watching you. Go get him paws... I'll leave you some ratings Labman along the way

The AVMA "condemns" alternative diets for dogs, Labman? I know that they caution against feeding table scraps in lieu of commercial dog foods and indicate that it is difficult to match the nutritious values of commercial dog foods when preparing home cooked meals for your pets. However, in a Press Release on April 7, 2007 the AVMA recommended that people consult with their veterinarians and research appropriate diets for their pet. In that same press release there is reference to "Home-Prepared Dog & Cat Diets: the Healthful Alternative" by Dr. Donald Strombeck as a good cookbook for pet owners who insist upon an alternative diet. There is also a recommendation to a website ( http://www.petdiets.com/ ) which it is recommended as "one the best Web sites on home-cooked pet diets."

Granted, the AVMA feels that the commercial foods are hard to match because they are well balanced diets that are formulated by professionals, however, it doesn't sound like they were condemning alternative diets. More than anything I think that they are adopting "if it ain't broke don't fix it" attitudes with commercial pet food diets to discourage inadequate diets that many well-meaning pet owners may revert to without adequate information, veterinary input and research.

Holistic diets are gradually becoming more and more readily accepted by the veterinary community. I know myself that I would much prefer to be able to open a bag of commercially prepared dog food for the dogs that are in my care, however I know breeders who have been using raw food or similar diets for more than 5 generations and their dogs are some of the top in the country, so I suspect we all have a lot to learn. All I know is that I prefer the convenience of the commercially prepared dog food and until my particular brand is removed from the market I will continue to use it.

Regardless, I felt that your words that the "AVMA condemns it" were a wee bit strong. There are not enough controls on pet foods and perhaps that will change in view of the huge amount of recalled foods. One can hope...

Didi

Labman, you have yet to respond to the current quality of commercial chow.. You have however deviated off topic to banter with bushg over turf wars.. And I believe as you put it you like for the threads to stay on topic.. As for rule 5 and 9 I aplogize for that.. as I was putting togther a well formed excerpts to deliver just the pertinant facts.. and I haven't posted a web addy and some time after my posts. So if you would be so kind as to indulge, I would love to hear your opinion regarding the econimics of the pet food industry.. Thanks... i.e... your turn.

I'm new so maybe I am having trouble understanding Labman. But let me see if I have the rules right.

1. I can't post anything unless it can be backed up with proof regarding diet of dogs.

2. If that proof is found elsewhere on the internet, I can't post it either.

Labman I here that Chavez is looking for a manager to run his new TV station in Venezuela. I really think you have the qualifications to fill that job nicely. If you play your cards right down there you may even be able to censor the other Free TV station or knock them off the air as well. It seems you want to silence anyone, and everyone that disagrees with your narrow scope of thinking. It is easier for you to remove the post of those who disagree with you than it is to win by debating them. Small minds think small.
MrPippin

IM courious if the barf diet even has 8500 consistent consumers to compare with others. Anyone that is experienced at all with Veterinary educational funding is aware that Hills donates money like they are Donald Trump or something to produce doctors. So naturally I am educated in there product and Rx based food. When I suggest a diet to an owner and explain how it works in favor of the pets medical condition its usually Hills, some buy it some don't. When I exam every patient that comes in, I always ask them what is the diet, and honestly don't ever recall anyone using it, so I don't know much about it other than a tiny insert I saw next to an article on IBD. "Barf" caught my eye so I read it. Very similar sales practices are used on dog treats. Most of those eye catching packages have taught me a lot about pancreatitis and food allergies. Funny now I am reflecting on some situations in the past. Some dogs will eat anything even if it could kill them, some dogs won't eat life saving food even if it kills them. Result for me is simple. Suggest Rx diets to those who need it, pray like mad the dog likes it and the owner has sufficient funds to provide it. Those that don't usually return with the same sick dog, or they find a new vet to complain I don't know what I am doing. Its not like the surrounding community Vets don't know each other. We communicate regularly to discuss cases and new tests, meds, etc. Meeting the pet and owners needs can sometimes be more difficult than the original condition that brought about the visit. If it meets the pets needs and he likes it. I don't care what the name of it is. If it's a Rx diet to keep your male cats ability to urinate normally, pray he likes it. I typed all of this while attempting to gargle peanut butter for a pure scientific break through.

I do not intend to take time to debate things here point by point. The economics of commercial dog chow? Millions of dogs are thriving on competitively priced commercial chows. So what does your analysis really prove?

BARF and raw diets come up here and elsewhere time after time. We have a horrible scourge of antibiotic resistant bacteria. I have found that no matter what facts and logic I post, there is resistance to it. At one point I noticed holistic is spelled without the w like hole rather than like whole. It recently dawned on me that it is like holy, belief without proof. I think it is dishonest to post as fact, minority beliefs with no foundation of facts. Yes I go against the conventional view in many cases, but I have facts to back it.

I want to make sure people understand the lack of testing behind the raw diets and allegations against commercial dog chow. As I recently posted elsewhere, those wanting both sides of the raw diet controversy can go to Dog Foods - Or What In The World Should I Buy? (http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/dogfoods.html) The BARF discussion starts below what sounds to me like some very good information.

You don't need to look further than the banner ads here to see people are making money on raw diets. Are they somehow more to be trusted than the large corporations? I trust the people giving away dogs more than anybody selling anything. Twice my newsletter has included an anti BARF article.

I have a hard enough time keeping my dogs from eating cat crap - I sure won't feed them BARF!

Sorry - just trying to lighten the mood. Who knew dog food could rile people up so?

I am confused as to where we deviate from confirmed deaths.. to allegations? Do you secretly work for purina, or just hoping for a sponsorship... you seem to without question totally ignore any facts... Apparantly the holocost did not happen either? just seems odd you are such a staunch advocate for major dog food manufacturers, with little regard for the recent truths..

IM courious if the barf diet even has 8500 consistent consumers to compare with others. Anyone that is experianced at all with Veterinary educational funding is aware that Hills donates money like they are Donald Trump or something to produce doctors. So naturally I am educated in there product and Rx based food. When I suggest a diet to an owner and explain how it works in favor of the pets medical condition its usually Hills, some buy it some don't...

Doc the pharmacy companies send lots of reps out to the Medical doctors as well. The reason is simple they want you to recommend their products. If they are paying for the education are they trustworthy when it comes to information about their competition? Or a better way to ask the question is are they going to pay for a school to teach that their food is not better for pets? These corporations are guided by profit pure and simply. If the ingredients in their processed foods was so important they would have spent the money to test these grains they were putting into their foods. They knew (or should have known) that China had the worst track record with the FDA and Dept. of Agriculture for contaminated food imports. Check out this web site to see the FDA's Import Alert warning on China. IMPORT ALERT IA9929 (http://www.fda.gov/ora/fiars/ora_import_ia9929.html) . Note that China's government claims the grain was shipped as a non-food additive. So these pet food companies used a grain which stated it was not for pet or human food consumption. There is an old saying " don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining. These companies failed to supply you and your clients with a safe product and there is no reason to believe they will be changing their ways in the future.

Let me make it clear I make no money from endorsements of any diet. I actually have my dogs on Purina Beneful and only by the grace of God did Beneful not become contaminated by this Chinese Grain. I simply feel that for the moderator to prevent the open discussion of alternative diets is a dis-service to those reading these forums. He has already stated he has a bias and therefore is a poor person to moderate the discussion unless he can keep his bias in check. How many wild wolves died from melamine and melamine related compounds this year? What have they been eating? RAW Meat and Bone. I only ask that the debate be allowed so the readers can make up their own minds. If Labman wants to disagree GREAT! but to delete the other post that disagree with him is over the top.

MrPippin

For over 30 years I have fed dogs DOG CHOW, and just because of a few scares I will not stop feeding them what they are used to. I have had peanut butter, chicken, hamburger meat, etc. recalled from my house... that doesn't mean when my daughter asks for a peanut butter and jelly sandwich I should tell her no.

He has already stated he has a bias and therefore is a poor person to moderate the discussion unless he can keep his bias in check.

I will have to disagree. I think Labman is a great moderator, he has never given me bad advice either. I came her the first day I got my puppy and without him here (which may I add NONE of you critcizing him were here at first) my puppy would not be on the right track. I will say some of you have given grea advice (and it's much appreciated) but Labman is ALWAYS here helping, and he's always the FIRST to answer. It is not like he's saying you aren't allowed to feed your dog what you want, he simply believes it's the wrong way and will not leave bad information on the boards for other new owners (like myself) to read.


How many wild wolves died from melamine and melamine related compounds this year? What have they been eating? RAW Meat and Bone.
MrPippin

My tiny Maltipoo can certainly NOT be compared to a wolf. I have had raw chicken in my freezer that was recalled, but the puppy food I was using NEVER got recalled. Just because the dog chow ordeal was more publicized, doesn't mean there's not chicken recalled almost everyday in different areas.

I am sorry Mr Pipin, but what you said is not the way it is. This thread is abundant proof I am allowing an open discussion of alternative diets. Yes rather than let a question on the treatment of a dog that ate chicken bones get lost in a big discussion of dog diets, I did delete a statement I couldn't let go unchallenged. It is a huge problem both here and elsewhere of people trying to inject their narrow views on dog diets into threads having nothing to do with the subject. In compliance with the policy here to allow open discussion, I started this thread as the proper place for it. I also have allowed a suggestion of a holistic diet for a dog with itching problems and posted a link to a site with pro BARF links. So much for my repression of discussion.

I will have to disagree. .

You are disagreeing with what? That he is biased? Quote from Labman "Twice my newsletter has included an anti BARF article."

I am not saying he is a bad moderator not at all, much of what he says I agree with. But he is biased with regards to commercial feeds vs alternate diets. If you as moderator have to censor those with whom you disagree because you are afraid you can't debate the difference in opinion then yes that is wrong. If he feels strongly about commercial feeds then he should shout at the top of his lungs in support of them. And as I have already stated, I use Beneful (a commercial feed) for my dogs. But in this country we have to be willing to support the right of those we disagree with to shout at the top of their lungs what they believe. I am absolutely opposed to censorship unless the person being censored is violating the rights of others by attacking them personally or using inapproprate language. I was probably over the top with the Chavez comment and appoligize for it. But we have to allow "ALL" opinions, not just support rights of those who agree with us.


My tiny Maltipoo can certainly NOT be compared to a wolf. I have had raw chicken in my freezer that was recalled, but the puppy food I was using NEVER got recalled. Just because the dog chow ordeal was more publicized, doesn't mean there's not chicken recalled almost everyday in different areas.

Your missing the point here. Chicken, Peanut Butter, and now Toothpaste, these are all caused by Big Companies that put their profits above your pet and your safety. What vets and doctors believe today is not infallible. When the Atkins diet first appeared doctors came out of every door to condemn it. However 10 years later the results proved them wrong. Atkins was right. Now all the diets are about low carbs. Funny how things change. I am not recommending any diet, I just want to be able to hear both sides of the debate so I can make a informed discission. And I don't need someone deciding for me what I should not read on the subject.

MrPippin

You are disagreeing with what? That he is biased? Quote from Labman "Twice my newsletter has included an anti BARF article."

I am not saying he is a bad moderator not at all, much of what he says I agree with.
NO, I was disagreeing with the fact that you said Labman is a poor moderator. And yes you DID say he was a poor moderator... reread your post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPippin
He has already stated he has a bias and therefore is a poor person to moderate the discussion unless he can keep his bias in check.

I am sorry Mr Pipin, but what you said is not the way it is. This thread is abundant proof I am allowing an open discussion of alternative diets. Yes rather than let a question on the treatment of a dog that ate chicken bones get lost in a big discussion of dog diets, I did delete a statement I couldn't let go unchallenged.

You didn't challenge it, you deleted it. BIG DIFFERENCE! You decided that I am to stupid to be able to tell when someone may be trying to endorse a product. But from what I have gathered it was not an endorsment of a product, but simply someone's opinion that an alternative diet might be healty. The person was concerned about a chicken bone and the person was simply informing that some diets include chicken bones but that it did make a difference if the bones were raw or not as cooking them could cause them to splinter and could cause harm.


It is a huge problem both here and elsewhere of people trying to inject their narrow views on dog diets into threads having nothing to do with the subject.

Some might consider your view on the subject to be narrow as well. Why not let the readers decide?

MrPippin

Some might consider your view on the subject to be narrow as well. Why not let the readers decide?
MrPippin

Because it's a pain in the butt when you ask a simple question, for instance, when can my puppy begin to eat dog chow instead of puppy chow... and someone tries to start a debate on whether commecial dog food is healthy or not. I didn't ask what the consequences of dog chow were and quite frankly it kind of makes me feel like you're telling me I'm a bad parent to my puppy. There's a place and a time for it and that is the only thing Labman is trying to point out.

I simply feel that for the moderator to prevent the open discussion of alternative diets is a dis-service to those reading these forums. He has already stated he has a bias and therefore is a poor person to moderate the discussion unless he can keep his bias in check. How many wild wolves died from melamine and melamine related compounds this year? What have they been eating? RAW Meat and Bone. I only ask that the debate be allowed so the readers can make up their own minds. If Labman wants to disagree GREAT!, but to delete the other post that disagree with him is over the top.
MrPippin

While I agree that the moderator should not prevent the open discussion of alternative diets I also feel there is a time and a place for it, and I DO feel that this thread is an excellent time and place. I did not read the original post that the moderator deleted, so I am unable to comment upon whether it was appropriate. I also agree that all moderator's personal biases need to be held in check enough to ensure that the original poster and other readers can draw from all responses in order to make a well-informed decision based upon those responses. This can be done by providing their own response and supportive documentation if necessary and should not be done by randomly editing posts. (I am NOT saying that this is what happened in this particular case as I do not know!)

I personally feel that unless the advice posted is deemed to be dangerous, abusive, blatantly offensive, obscene or is obvious solicitation it should not be removed or altered by the moderators (particularly if it is just that they disagree). This kind of defeats the purpose of the site. Having people being able to read and comment upon those posts generally can give the OP and other readers an idea of which direction they should go. Advice and opinions are as varied as the people who give them. Doctors, lawyers, the clergy, veterinarians, breeders, teachers - they all have their own views and opinions upon things. (I think that's what makes us human?) However, if I post a question and get 30 different responses and 25 of them disagree with one person's response and agree with anothers then I pretty much can figure out which is the best advice for me to consider. I can then narrow it down further by seeing how much respect a person seems to have for and by others, and further by what their background and credentials are. I am all for free speech. :)

As for your point on the wild wolves, while I wanted to scream out "Touché!!" I also must make mention of the fact that when wolves are eating raw meat and bone, this is not their exclusive diet. They also eat a very high concentration of grains & other vegetation which is usually embedded within the stomachs of what they are ingesting. Neither man nor dog can live by meat alone. I suspect a huge part of the problems with both commercial and home-made dog foods are not the ingredients, per se, but due to technological error, ignorance and man-made materials (teflon, melamine, etc).

Now, I believe the topic here is actually about commercial dog chow, not Labman's abilities, knowledge or biases. How about we put the focus back on the original topic because I believe that many here have a lot of good information to offer. I also think the difference between commercial dog chow and canned food needs to be addressed. Obviously, the majority of the deaths so far have been attributed to prepared, canned foods, although I see more and more dried products being suspect it sure makes one wonder where all of this will lead?

Food for thought - if we can't ensure that OUR own human food is safe for human consumption, how can we believe that our pet foods are?

Didi

NO, I was disagreeing with the fact that you said Labman is a poor moderator. And yes you DID say he was a poor moderator... reread your post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPippin
He has already stated he has a bias and therefore is a poor person to moderate the discussion unless he can keep his bias in check.

Please read the post you quoted. It does not say he is a poor moderator it says he is a poor person to moderate this discussion because of his bias UNLESS HE CAN KEEP HIS BIAS IN CHECK. Judges routinely recuse themselves from hearing cases. Not because they are a poor judge, but because they have bias that would make it hard for them to be fair.

MrPippin

Of course Judges cannot be biased but Labman is not a Judge here... he is a moderator on a message board. Labman has pointed out that you must stay on topic... those are the rules... and he is required to enforce those rules. Yes, he is biased here, because this is an open discussion but when someone is telling me about how bad commercial dog food is when my question didn't require that information then he is obligated to say something. It has happened on my post and others. I didn't say Labman wasn't biased (WE ALL ARE) but that has nothing to do with the way he has deleted some of the posts... they are simply irrelavant.

Because it's a pain in the butt when you ask a simple question, for instance, when can my puppy begin to eat dog chow instead of puppy chow... and someone tries to start a debate on whether commecial dog food is healthy or not. I didn't ask what the consequences of dog chow were and quite frankly it kind of makes me feel like you're telling me I'm a bad parent to my puppy. There's a place and a time for it and that is the only thing Labman is trying to point out.

If I posted a question like when should my dog be given jellybeans and a bunch of people jumped all over me saying I shouldn't, I could look at it as being a pain in the butt, or I could see that I might need to re-think whether I should give my dog jellybeans or not. I would prefer to receive everyone's opinions, either way, if it was my post. I just might learn something!

Sometimes people DO give their pets things they shouldn't have. What if I asked if it was okay to give my dog a piece of chocolate before bedtime or would it affect his sleep? Wouldn't you honestly jump all over me about the chocolate? I look at the information on this site as a learning experience and as long as people are posting in relation to the question (or the responses to it if on topic) then I think it's valuable and educational.

Just my honest opinion.

Didi

Of course Judges cannot be biased but Labman is not a Judge here... he is a moderator on a message board. Labman has pointed out that you must stay on topic... those are the rules... and he is required to enforce those rules. Yes, he is biased here, because this is an open discussion but when someone is telling me about how bad commerical dog food is when my question didn't require that information then he is obligated to say something. It has happened on my post and others. I didn't say Labman wasn't biased (WE ALL ARE) but that has nothing to do with the way he has deleted some of the posts... they are simply irrelavant.
Who gets to decide when they are irrelavant? You and Labman? Your original question you are referring to was:

I was just wondering at what age does a puppy become a dog. It sounds kind of silly but I want to know when to convert from puppy to dog products, such as food and shampoo.

Also, Callie is a 3 month old Maltipoo, she's 5 1/2 lbs... is she fully grown? When will she stop growing?

To that Labman responded that:

The early switch to adult chow depends on your goals for the dog. Puppy chow is a product of the animal feed industry and scientifically formulated to produce the fastest growth possible. We have abundant meat on our tables for less because the animal feed industry is very good at what they do.

I disagreed with his statement that the animal feed industry is very good at what they do. And responded that they killed 8500 dogs over the last few months and that they were not even competent let alone good at what they did.

You mentioned food in your original post (such as food and shampoo). Labman responded about puppy food and the animal feed industry. I responded to his statement on the animal feed industry being good at what they do. Where did anyone get off topic?

Instead of posting your questions on an open forum, perhaps you should email Labman directly, they you won't have to worry that someone will disagree with either of you.

I note to that you didn't mind someone telling you how good commercial dog food was, you only became upset that someone would say it was not good. I am glad you stand up for the rights of those who agree with you. I will begin to respect you when you stand up for the rights of those who disagree with you.

MrPippin

I am not disagreeing with anyone's opinions on what they want to feed their dog, I am agreeing with Labman that there's a time and a place for it. And I also did not say that you couldn't post your opinion wherever you wanted, I just said it was annoying.

I do not want to message Labman directly with my questions because I HAVE gotten some really great answers from other people on this board (Ruby, Gramma, Dr, and many others).

It's kind of like if I posted a question asking if it was better to eat chicken nuggets or chicken tenders... and someone starts telling me how digusting I am for eating meat. I didn't ask for that opinion, although it's a valid one, it isn't necessary to post on that specific question.

It's kind of like if I posted a question asking if it was better to eat chicken nuggets or chicken tenders... and someone starts telling me how digusting I am for eating meat. I didn't ask for that opinion, although its a valid one, it isn't necessary to post on that specific question.
A more accurate description would be you asking the question about chicken nuggets or chicken tenders and someone responded that the chicken tenders of Joes grill were the best because he knows what he is doing with chicken tenders. But then someone who had watched a news report on Joes grill being fined for having roaches in their chicken tenders making the comment that Joes got fined and they disagreed with the statement about Joes grill knowing what he is doing with chicken tenders.

Then you could go off on them because you didn't ask anything about roaches or fines.

MrPippin

LOL, I'll agree with that.

I haven't personally received money in reference to any food I have prescribed or otherwise suggested to any of my patients. After 17 years in practice you see what diet is more effective than others. Im directing this at specific medical conditions, that require key ingredients to dodge, or combat stuff like nutritional management of cats with Calcium Oxalate Related Feline Lower Urinary Tract Disease (FLUTD) I know 2 different brands that work great using oxalate inhibiters. This diet in any brand is expensive and is becoming more common for owners to request the surgical correction called perineal urethrostomy. This surgery is expensive atho some view long term cost advantages over endless pricey prescription diet. Its in my view a disservice to the pet and owner not informing them the cause of his inability to urinate was a result of his diet. After very close observation of urine output while the new diet starts to work, most cases have little concerns of urinary blockage again. I don't get paid by food companies to insure they profit from the cat who can't pee. I became a vet because I love animals and what makes them tick. Certainly wasn't to become rich. Ten years in practice before my student loans were paid off. Lol Lastly, I am ridiculously consumed in new procedures and technology to provide pets and there owners "human quality" health care. If one day an owner tells me barf is the diet used, I will ask them all about it to expand my little pea brain. I don't think I am closed minded at all towards barf. Its just not a diet with earth shattering results that has caused a mad rush to obtain. Ultimately that represents to me an eye catching name is basically all the diet offers. I am not going to talk potential barf feeders from tryng it, maybe there dog will love it. I like anchovies on my pizza, an many would say that's barf! What ever the pet may need as life surviving essentials I am going to help the owners locate regardless of brand. Jake my heeler is always with me, school, the ER, and even local clinics where I do relief work. He eats what ever is supplied at the given location at dinner time. Rarely has GI issues until floridas lovebug season, stupid dog eats um. Now Im hungry. :) Not for lovebugs though.

MrPip I love the name cracks me up.

Doc I hope I didn't sound like I was saying you were making a profit on the food. I was referring to the food companies paying for parts of some students education. I know they have reps that come out and talk to vets and some vets carry these diets in their clinics. But I don't doubt for a minute your commitment to the animals. Although if you are at a University and are in Florida then we would probably not get along at football games. Sorry but I grew up in Athens, GA and hate the Gators! I work closely with Vets from several local hospitals and clinics. Most of them recommend me to their patients for training and sometimes boarding when they are over crowded. Again if I sounded like I was questioning your motives I apologize. I do however question the drug companies and commercial dog food companies as I believe they put profits above everything else.
I actually had this user name long before the Lord of the Rings movies came out. I was just looking for something I didn't have to keep changing because someone else already had it.:)

If the personal insults and comments continue then this thread WILL be closed.

Labman has stated this thread as an open forum to discuss the realative merits of various forms of dog feeding.

Its all good, you make me laugh even if you are a bulldog fan! I didn't take offence to any thing you said, you looked like you were on a mission and I just laughed! Secretly I was wondering how I could get paid regarding pet food. Then it shifted towards leaving my students and I couldn't have that. Where else can you go to work with your dog, not know what trauma or species will appear, show some cool kids how to put dogs and cats back together with purple string and needles while getting paid for it?

Its all good, you make me laugh even if you are a bulldog fan! I didnt take offence to any thing ya said, you looked like you were on a mission and I just laughed! Secretly I was wondering how I could get paid regarding pet food. Then it shifted towards leaving my students and I couldnt have that. Where else can you go to work with your dog, not know what trauma or species will appear, show some kool kids how to put dogs and cats back together with purple string and needles while getting paid for it?

Yep I stole my first dog (not really, I told them they could give her to me or I would come back and steal her) back in 1976 from the University of Georgia Vet Hospital. That was the old, old hospital. She was a Dalmatian that had been gathered up as a X dog. My future wife was an animal care taker there at the time. It was nice to live close to a University Hospital. Cutting edge treatments available for my pets and my farm animals. I can remember 5 or 6 students coming out in a van when they would visit my farm to help with a lame horse. I too am lucky enough to bring my dogs with me everyday. Well really 3 are mine and one I am fostering for a Animal Rescue Group. Just to make sure I to stay on topic here, the Dalmatian choked to death on a piece of beef liver. I couldn't get it out and even my attempt at a Tracheostomy didn't save her. Funny thing was as soon as she died the liver just fell out. So I guess liver is not a good thing to give your dog, at least I never did it again.

So I guess liver is not a good thing to give your dog, at least I never did it again.

Was it cooked or raw??

(Sorry, couldn't resist!)

Didi

Was it cooked or raw???

(Sorry, couldn't resist!)

Didi

It was cooked. Left over from a night of liver and onions. I thought I had cut it into small enough pieces but obviously not. The other dogs in the pack ate the same thing but did not have a problem, this dog had eaten it before without a problem. It could have just been a matter of her gulping it to fast, but I have never fed a dog liver again since that day.

Who gets to decide when they are irrelavant? You and Labman?
MrPippin

Anybody that feels a post, including mine, violates the rules or something including questions posted to the wrong forum can click on the report inappropriate post button. The report will be emailed to any expert for the forum, Curlyben, Fr_Chuck, and Rickj. In the case of the dog forum, of course that would be me. If I fail to act, likely the others have enough to do, they won't either. If your report is ignored, you can PM or email them. I don't have the last say here. I have never tried to give myself a warning. I have tried to transfer a question to another forum, and it worked. I can't transfer questions from another forum to Dogs. J_9 has done a good job of transferring dog health questions out of the human forum.

Labman I was upset you deleted part of someone's post and feel you did so improperly. I am not saying you are a bad moderator and I am not trying to attack you personally. I hope you can understand that. When I see something I feel is wrong I speak my mind on the subject. I also have my dogs on commercial feed as I have stated. However I do not give the pet food industry folks a pass on the disaster we just went through. I think we as consumers need to hold them accountable for poor judgement and not accept "Whoops" as reason. I don't use the Barf diet, but I have customers and friends that do, and I have not seen any ill effects on their animals. I don't use it, because I don't have the time to chop up meat and veggies for my dogs twice a day. I prefer to open the bag and scoop it into their bowl. I supplement it with the occasional double cheeseburger bite from McDonalds. My dogs too, seem to be very healthy and I feel lucky for it. Frankly I was shocked when I heard the product names being recalled, and as the dogs continued to die, I became angry. I think we have both made our positions pretty clear and for us to continue this disagreement is going to be un-productive for both of us. I would really prefer to let this go and concentrate on other things. MrPippin

OK so I'm getting a warm and fuzzy feeling here. Let me understand on May22 posted by" kisiel5 "dog hit by car spoiled by human food" If I give my opinion again the same as I did on this one... I don't need to go incognito... is this what I'm hearing on this post. Cause after all I did say feed the dog a good quality dog food along with some yummy chicken, beef ,brown rice , veggies etc... just making sure that it is OK to say. That's what got me introuble to begin with. :) peace

I think it would benefit everyone who is new to this site to review the site rules. One of the things that I believe is causing the confusion is that you cannot just get into a back and forth discussion on someone else's post. The rule is that we have to answer the poster's question. We can't get off on tangents, discussions, or difference of opinions. If we do, then it is the moderators, or actually anybodys, responsibility to bring the thread back to topic. Meaning, we have to direct people to limit our discussion to the question posted. If there is a disagreement about something, start a new topic in Members Discussion or here as Labman did. We are allowed to voice our opinions, and get into "gentlemanly" (or womanly LOL) debates there. You can PM someone and invite them to your post. Throughout this site, the main rule is abusive language, name calling, personal attacks, are not allowed.

The rules can be found at the bottom of every page under FAQ. Here is a link. I think it will help put everything into perspective. There is room for everyone here. Please understanding that it is incumbant upon the Experts, Moderators, and Administration to abide by the rules and ensure we all do the same. https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_faq_rules

I hope this helps shed some light on the confusion. Sorry to have hijacked your thread for this Labman. I just felt that this may be the root of the conflicts that have been popping up.

Okay, back to the food discussion. :)

There is a big problem here and elsewhere with a vocal minority inserting their radical views on dog diets into threads it is irrelevant to. I have decided rather than challenge them in such threads, to just delete the material. They are still free to express their views in other threads. I don't know if it will work not. On another site I am active on, the administrator imposed a 3 month moratorium on discussing raw diets. I thought it worked very well, but don't think I have the authority to do it here. I do think I have the backing to keep it out of threads I think it is inappropriate. I will continue to delete what I judge to be a problem. I don't claim the wisdom of Solomon, and if I am inconsistent, it is not set in concrete that life is fair.

Look, the fact is, everyone is going to have their own views on what the best diet is. Every vet I speak with, never recommends holistic food. In the end, people do what works best for them. I have found the kibble I use is balanced perfectly to my dogs needs and lifestyle. It also minimizes the trips to get her teeth cleaned. She is almost five and her teeth are in excellent shape. I wanted the vet to do a cleaning and he told me no need. Yet, I need to get my teeth cleaned every 6 months. Dogs I have fostered that have been given people food as a regular diet, need their teeth cleaned or wind up losing some of them. I haven't fostered any that have been put on a holistic diet so I don't have the personal experience to state one way or another as to whether it is better in the long term or not.

I can say that my dog, who was a rescue, was extremely ill when I adopted her at 5 or 6 months old. It took me three months to get her on the right track health wise. Unfortunately, due to whatever happened to her early in her life and all the parasites and bacteria she harbored for an extended period, her digestive track is permanently affected. I tried everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, including holistic foods and cooking for her,. No matter what I did, she had chronic soft stools and/or diarrhea. Adding pumpkin and all the other suggestions by the vet didn't do anything. There was so much that we tried I can't remember it all. I finally spoke to the vet about finding a kibble with high fiber in it and even though she was young, we put her on the Hill's Science Diet W/D. People who are familiar with it know this is for older dogs to help keep their weight in check. That did the trick. Every once in a blue moon she has a about of diarrhea. It usually coincides with the change of season/weather.

Frankly, I think it is wrong to condemn an entire industry because of this recent health problem. Yes, there are manufacturers out there that will look for the cheaper sources and have quite a lot of additives and fillers in their product. You have to be a smart consumer with your pets, as you are with your own food. Do you want to talk about all the human foods that have been affected lately? Maybe, just maybe, all of this will lead to better standardization throughout the food industry in general.

ok so i'm getting a warm and fuzzy feeling here. let me understand on May22 posted by" kisiel5 "dog hit by car spoiled by human food" If I give my opinion again the same as I did on this one...I don't need to go incognito....is this what im hearing on this post. cause after all i did say feed the dog a good quality dog food along with some yummy chicken, beef ,brown rice , veggies etc.....just making sure that it is ok to say. That's what got me introuble to begin with. :) peace

Sorry bush, I didn't look at the post until now. The problem was that the OP wanted his/her dog to start eating his dog food again and was looking for advice on how to do that. It wasn't open ended asking if people food was okay. It was apparent the OP felt that it wasn't.

I think it is important to understand that opinions are okay if the poster is looking for them. If they aren't, then we are obligated to stick to the question at hand.

All of us in the U.S. are used to freedom of speech and the right to voice our opinion. This web site is a privately owned site and our First Amendment Rights do not apply here.

For the record, I am not advocating the BARF diet, holistic diets, or any other kind of alternative diet for our pets. That is why I did not engage in Labman's Commercial Dog Chow challenge. I believe in finding what works best for the dog and for you. I prefer a food that doesn't result in more than one or two bowel movements a day. I prefer a quality food because I can feed less, which results in a monetary savings, because that is important to me. I presently feed my dogs IAMS Large Breed and I am quite happy with it. I also used Purina Veterinary Diet Canine Maintenance for awhile, but found that my Berner is more settled on the IAMS. The Lab is fine on anything that looks like food. :D

I originally used a Pet Food store lamb & rice formula chow for my rescued Lab/Husky cross after she recovered from a terrible about with parvo (which she had when I took her in). She looked and did GREAT on it, even my vet was impressed. However, he suggested it may not be the best food for her and suggested changing to Hill's. I did, but she eventually died with liver cancer and kidney failure, so I decided to try something different for the Berner as they are prone to these types of cancers. I don't believe either of these dog foods caused it, but I also decided not to tempt fate. I supplement both my Chocolate Lab's diet and the Bernese Mountain Dog's diet with occasional fresh peppers, carrots (for breath), varied fruits, brocolli (not very often - causes loose stools!), asparagus and cauliflower. Every once in the while I allow them some animal fat, chicken and beef marrow bones. The bones are only given under supervision, are never cooked and are large enough for the breeds. I would ONLY feed dry food, myself - mostly to keep the teeth healthy - UNLESS there was a medical reason to switch to canned.

Anyhow, just wanted to clarify as I don't want people thinking that I push any alternative diets. Right or wrong, I am a strong supporter of commercial dog chows, but prefer the more expensive brands.

Didi

DiDi, is a lab\ husky anything like a lazy work dog?

Since we have asked for a factual basis.. let's first consider business economics...the price of beef...

At this time last year, live cattle traded at 64 cents per pound; now it's just over a dollar. And retail prices at some stores have shot up about 40 cents per pound.

Now let's compare that to the price of dog food..

I......

Simple economics........ the price of all the supplies have increased dramatically, yet the cost of the end product has only increased nominally..
Petroleum products which are use to produce, the ink, the clear plastic freshness liner in the bags.. as well as fuel the trucks that deliver supplies, meaning shipping prices increased.. (fuel prices have increase by nearly 60% since last year)

The cost of paper- which is used to make the bags.., the cost of electricity which is used to process and manufacture the products,
The cost of steel-which is used to manufacture the canned varieties.. combined with a 40 cent minimum wage increase in the state of Florida alone.. Meaning drivers, baggers, stockers, etc get paid more.. yet the cost of dog food has only risen slightly..

One would have to ask how this is possible.. it's easy when the quality of the products has been reduced, or supplemented with cheaper available alternatives with no concern for the well being of the pets...

I will continue this banter later, I have to close the daycare for the evening.. till morning.. where will will address or attempt to address if there is any factual basis to the health benefits of one vs the other....

Nice analysis. Even if your facts are correct, the selling price of a product has many other factors besides the cost of manufacturing and distribution. Besides, there are other ways of trimming costs other than reformulating. If your theory is correct, the ingredients in dog food should be different now than in the past. Are they? Well I compared the label on a new bag of Pro Plan to one several years old. I hang on to a few empty dog food bags because they make sturdy containers for various other stuff. The guaranteed analysis was exactly the same for both the several years old bag and the current bag. There was a minor change in the ingredients. Well down in the mid level dribs and drabs, the whole grain corn was gone. I can't say why it was removed, perhaps in response to all the negative opinions on corn as a dog food ingredient. I can't imagine at the level it was at, removing it having much economic effect.

That is just one product. Although I have a number of empty bags of dog food around, Pro Plan is the only one I have both a new one and an old one.

I may not have thought to dig out the old bag and compare them, if I hadn't read Nutro and why I don't feed it anymore (http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/nutro.html) I like the site. It seems to be a real trove of reliable info on dogs. The articles I have read seem to be long on the facts and leave out speculation. It is possible the guy loves dogs and his main agenda is to share the best info he can find in order to enhance the reputation of his kennel. Of course, he could be selling Diamond or Royal Canin too or even the obscure brand we were buying through a 4-H leader. In general, I think the site is a great resource. I used to direct people to its article on parvo, but decided the AVMA site has more credibility.

DiDi, is a lab\ husky anything like a lazy work dog?

Nah... more like a water loving sporting dog with a frog in it's throat.:eek:

Didi

While I agree that the moderator should not prevent the open discussion of alternative diets I also feel there is a time and a place for it, and I DO feel that this thread is an excellent time and place. I did not read the original post that the moderator deleted, so I am unable to comment upon whether or not it was appropriate. I also agree that all moderator's personal biases need to be held in check enough to ensure that the original poster and other readers can draw from all responses in order to make a well-informed decision based upon those responses. This can be done by providing their own response and supportive documentation if necessary and should not be done by randomly editing posts. (I am NOT saying that this is what happened in this particular case as I do not know!)

I personally feel that unless the advice posted is deemed to be dangerous, abusive, blatantly offensive, obscene or is obvious solicitation it should not be removed or altered by the moderators (particularly if it is just that they disagree). This kind of defeats the purpose of the site. Having people being able to read and comment upon those posts generally can give the OP and other readers an idea of which direction they should go. Advice and opinions are as varied as the people who give them. Doctors, lawyers, the clergy, veterinarians, breeders, teachers - they all have their own views and opinions upon things. (I think that's what makes us human?) However, if I post a question and get 30 different responses and 25 of them disagree with one person's response and agree with anothers then I pretty much can figure out which is the best advice for me to consider. I can then narrow it down further by seeing how much respect a person seems to have for and by others, and further by what their background and credentials are. I am all for free speech. :)

As for your point on the wild wolves, while I wanted to scream out "Touché!!" I also must make mention of the fact that when wolves are eating raw meat and bone, this is not their exclusive diet. They also eat a very high concentration of grains & other vegetation which is usually embedded within the stomachs of what they are ingesting. Neither man nor dog can live by meat alone. I suspect a huge part of the problems with both commercial and home-made dog foods are not the ingredients, per se, but due to technological error, ignorance and man-made materials (teflon, melamine, etc).

Now, I believe the topic here is actually about commercial dog chow, not Labman's abilities, knowledge or biases. How about we put the focus back on the original topic because I believe that many here have a lot of good information to offer. I also think the difference between commercial dog chow and canned food needs to be addressed. Obviously, the majority of the deaths so far have been attributed to prepared, canned foods, although I see more and more dried products being suspect it sure makes one wonder where all of this will lead?

Food for thought - if we can't ensure that OUR own human food is safe for human consumption, how can we believe that our pet foods are?

Didi
I just absolutely enjoyed reading this post . I'm very receptive to the fact now that dogs just really may need grains.I never thought much about the matter of the stomach content. Great point. This is grain almost in its natural state... but when grain is processed how much vitamins does it lose through the high heat? That is my concern with commercial dog foods.esp the ones that list them as the first indgredients. That's why I feed my dogs a decent quality dog food Iams& blue buffalo ( I would use blue straight but it is very expensive), mixed together with some meat, veggies , brown rice, I figure with this variety they have to get what they need and it taste good. As far as the canned dog foods (sometimes my dogs like for me to hand feed them)... I have felt little sharp bones in some of the canned, so I don't give it to my dogs. THANKs FOr giving us the grain and vegetation spin it really makes sense.

Frankly, I think it is wrong to condemn an entire industry because of this recent health problem. Yes, there are manufacturers out there that will look for the cheaper sources and have quite a lot of additives and fillers in their product. You have to be a smart consumer with your pets, as you are with your own food. Do you want to talk about all the human foods that have been affected lately? Maybe, just maybe, all of this will lead to better standardization throughout the food industry in general.

Only if we hold them accountable. If we give them a FREE PASS it sends the message that we are content with business as usual. We also need to hold our government accountable as this could have just as easily been thousands of humans dead and may be the next time if we don't make some changes. On May 30th the FDA announced that a domestic company "Uniscope" had tested the ingredients it was using in livestock and fish food for melamine and found that it tested positive. It purchased these ingredients domestically from Tembec another domestic company. After it found these melamine and melamine-related compounds in its ingredients it contacted the FDA and the FDA has announced a recall on the following products: Aquabond and Aqua-tec2 used in fish and shrimp foods and Xtrabond used in livestock feed.

Note that the FDA did not find this contamination it was the Uniscope Company that decided to test the ingredients being supplied to them that uncovered the melamine products. This they say they did because of the pet food scandal, they wanted to be sure of the products they were making. The testing was pretty simple and not very expensive. We need to make it clear to pet food manufacturers that we expect them to test the ingredients they are putting in our pets food. I don't want to condemn them, but if we don't demand it, most of them will not change.

MrPippin

Nah.... more like a water loving sporting dog with a frog in it's throat.:eek:

Didi

The main problem I have with my Huskador (I like that name for a Husky Labrador Mix) is that she loves the water like a Labrador but soaks up water like a shag carpet. My son's labrador can go into the pool and come out dry. Mine goes in and brings 5 gallons of water out with her in her coat. But she loves her morning swim:) .

RE: post #56.

Of course, Mr Pippin, you are right about that. But, how do we as individuals do that?

I can guarantee you that there is going to be one MAJOR class action lawsuit. THAT is what will eventually hold them accountable and change the standards. THE FDA is not equipped financially to do the job properly at the moment. I believe there will be a major fallout and shake up due to this. Add into the mix the amount of human food that has been contaminated of late, and we have the beginnings of the making of a reevaluation and overhaul of the system.

RE: post #56.

Of course, Mr Pippin, you are right about that. But, how do we as individuals do that?



We as consumers get to vote on products. Our votes are our dollars. Every consumer can write an email or a letter to the company they buy pet food from and let it be known that you expect the company supplying food to your dog, to test its ingredients. Especially if they are dealing with a foreign company. It is also very easy to write your Congressman and Senator's and let them know you expect them to fund the FDA and Agriculture Department with enough inspectors to keep our food supply safe. Believe it or not they do listen. And lastly ask questions about the brand or brands you use. If they are not testing, quit buying it until they do, believe me, if you hit them in the pocket book they will listen.

MrPippin

Unfortunately, most people who aren't affected by something like this become very apathetic and will not do anything because it is too much of a hassle. If we had less apathetic people in this country, we wouldn't have as huge a problem as we have with the stray/abused/neglected situation of animals that we deal with, among many other social issues we are currently experiencing.

I believe the class action lawsuit will be the pivotal, and ultimately deciding factor, in getting the changes that we need across the board.

I am thinking of sending Purina and Iams a letter thanking them for continuing to supply safe chows at a reasonable price. None, none of the high volume, major brand dry chows have had a problem. Much of what was recalled, was only removed to give time to verify it was safe. As far as class action lawsuits go, I think they are a bunch of the stuff that comes out the other end of the dog. The Lawyers get rich, and the consumers get nothing except higher prices. Have any of you ever gotten anything out of a class action lawsuit? Our whole tort system is out of control and a major drag on our economy a long with burdensome regulations that do more to provide job security for bureaucrats than protect consumers.

Oh, I agree labman. Lawyers are the only ones who get rich off stuff like this.
But, I do believe that with the additional problems found in human foods now, there will be a reevaluation and adjustment of the industry standards.

I believe the class action lawsuit will be the pivotal, and ultimately deciding factor, in getting the changes that we need across the board.
The main problem with a lawsuit is that the companies will come off cheap. What is the value of the typical dog or cat in dollars? Not very much. Even if they averaged it out to $1000.00 per pet (which I highly doubt it will be that high) your only talking about $850,000.00 for the dogs. So it cost these companies so little that it will still be worth the risk to continue business as usual. I have higher hopes for the FDA getting more inspectors, especially since so much of our food is now being imported. The better solution is for consumers to write and let the company know you have decided to quit using their product until they announce that all of their ingredients will be tested for quality. Frankly if these companies have half a brian that is going to happen on its own. I expect to see them start announcing in their commercials "We test our ingredients to insure quality" or something to that effect. :rolleyes:

Okay Mr. Pippin. I hear you.

Have any of you ever gotten anything out of a class action lawsuit?

Actually I did. It was about 1984 or 1985. I came home and found a letter from State Farm Insurance in the mail box which stated they owed me $756.00 (or something like that) because of a settlement in a class action lawsuit that had been filed against them. It had to do with the way their policy was written and quite frankly I figured I had already been paid for my accident. I called my State Farm agent and told him I didn't really want the settlement and that I had never signed any lawsuit. But he told me that the money was mine and so I used it to prepay my premiums. Note that I had already been paid a fair settlement on my claim by the another insurance company (the at fault drivers), but because of the way the policy was worded some attorney said it meant State Farm owed me as well. I am sure that the attorneys were the ones who made a profit on this suit.

Mr P, it sounds as if you were recompensed not for the accident but for an overcharge of premiums paid. You don't have to sign papers on a class action suit. You were on their client list for the time in question and were entitled to whatever money that comes from a class action.

This post ran off topic and died quick

Seven pages quick?

So, just bring it back to topic if there is something you want to add paws.

A discussion of lawyers and class action suits belongs in Members' discussions, but so far it is not obscuring the OP's original question.

Sorry I was just answering Laman's Question. I didn't mean to ge off topic. Again I just ask everyone to keep in mind that the commercial dog food companies failed to test the ingredients and as a result thousands of pets died. I only ask that you write the company whose food you use (Their address or phone number should be on the can or bag) and let them know you expect more from them if they are to keep your business. You can find your congressmen at Write Your Representative - Contact your Congressperson in the U.S. House of Representatives. (http://www.house.gov/writerep/) where all you need to do is enter your zip code. It does require a nine digit zip code. Write to them and ask them to fund additional inspectors for the food imported into this country. Your Senators can be found at U.S. Senate (http://www.senate.gov/) where you only need to know what state you are from. Write them and I promise they will respond back to you.