I am amazed at the Christians today that don't know the difference. What is the deal? Why do so many mix law with grace. We aren't under the law anymore! Jesus fulfilled the law... we have a new covenent. We live under grace. Doesn't anyone read Paul's episitles? I am shocked! Does this mean we are to chuck the Old Testament? NO! There are principles to live by... but WE ARE NOT UNDER the LAW. Why is that such a difficult concept?

By 'law' do you mean the laws of your country?

Why didn't you just reply instead of using the negative comment feature?
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Which denomination or faith is telling you that you are under the Mosaic Law and not under Grace? Then perhaps we can have a more enlightened discussion, as not every Christian believes that man is governed by the Mosaic Law.

No, I meant Christians in general... reading some of the questions and the way people respond. I was kind of surprised by it that is all. I have talked to a lot of Christians and it is my opinion that THIS is really a problem in the Church's today. They talk about Grace... but then they throw a little Law in there as well. It is isn't as obvious as the person asking whether they could eat blood... but it is there. That is all I am saying.

Ahhh, I understand that now. I guess the people respond so differently because of their own convictions and confusions. For some living under "The Law" offers a more tangible way of salvation. Meaning that once they follow all the guidelines and rules, they are bound for glory in the next life. It is like being given all the standards and then once achieving them, you have it made. I could write a book about that myself, having been in a church that boldly and proudly professed to having over 800 standards. But that is not the path to Heaven.

Christ gave us the choice to follow Him. He gave us simple guidelines for living as noted in the Beatitudes and the Parables. He honored the Ten Commandments and added that we love each other as we would want to be loved. He gave us a prayer of deep meaning with the Our Father. He never said it would be easy and it sure is not.

Christians sometimes can be their own worst enemy with the bickering between, as you have stated, living under the old Law and the life under Grace.

I am amazed at the Christians today that don't know the difference. What is the deal? Why do so many mix law with grace. We aren't under the law anymore! Jesus fulfilled the law.....we have a new covenent. We live under grace. Doesn't anyone read Paul's episitles? I am shocked! Does this mean we are to chuck the Old Testament? NO! There are principles to live by....but WE ARE NOT UNDER the LAW. Why is that such a difficult concept?

Law is tomato sauce... Grace is pasta. Together they make a plate of spaghetti (or the complete Word of God). Law and Grace go hand in hand or hand in glove. They are man's friends. Law give's man a standard or goal to reach. When man fails to reach the perfect standard, he is forgiven through God's grace and the shed blood of Christ. Because we are so grateful for having been forgiven, we try to please God by striving to reach His goal, the Law. Over time, we get closer to reaching that perfect standard through trial and error and practice.

Law is tomato sauce...Grace is pasta. Together they make a plate of spaghetti (or the complete Word of God). Law and Grace go hand in hand or hand in glove. They are man's friends. Law give's man a standard or goal to reach. When man fails to reach the perfect standard, he is forgiven through God's grace and the shed blood of Christ. Because we are so grateful for having been forgiven, we try to please God by striving to reach His goal, the Law. Over time, we get closer to reaching that perfect standard through trial and error and practice.

Funny... you are whippin up Italian food... and all I can smell is bologna. ;)

Because the law in general has a place, one an not steal, ( is it OK for a Christian to steal) you can not kill ( is it OK for chistians to kill)
You can not do adultry ( well at least they are not suppose to)

Thou shall have no other gods before me, first commandment, is that now a suggestion, which god can a christian have other than God.

I would say that one can not throw the law out but has to divide the laws that governed the Hewbrew nation ( their statue laws) and the absolute laws and rule that God has set.

You know I always had an issue with that "covert they neighbors lawn mowers and new cars commandment, so if we can just make them suggestions now, it will work out better for me to.

funny...you are whippin up Italian food .......and all I can smell is bologna. ;)

Perhaps your senses are a bit off. Italian food should smell like Italian food.

Why do so many mix law with grace.

Tessy, I am as perplexed as you.


Why is that such a difficult concept?

I believe people have an inexplicable need to do something on their own to merit salvation. I also believe people have difficulty accepting that salvation can be as simple as accepting the gift - as in there must be more to it. It's obvious you recognize that grace - the unmerited favor of God - does not invalidate the commandments. But I understand as I'm sure you do that we're not talking about living by the ten commandments, we're talking about earning your salvation. Ain't going to happen, so you might as well give in to grace.

Steve

Dude, finally... the voice of reason... we will get along great!

Why thank you. What's funny is that's the kind of response that got me called anything but the 'voice of reason' on another forum :D

Guilt?
Perfectionism?


Other passages
Matthew 25 - the sheep and the goats
John 14: 15 on
James 2: 14,
the parable of the sower.


even Paul's Romans 8:
10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness


now who has not read something like that and thought : I still lust or get angry or envy etc.. Why?


or felt guilty because that they weren't on a "missions"



Maybe Christians and non- believers expect perfection and no one can achieve that in the flesh, so to speak.


Romans 7:
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.




Grace and Peace

Tessy, I am as perplexed as you.
I believe people have an inexplicable need to do something on their own to merit salvation. I also believe people have difficulty accepting that salvation can be as simple as accepting the gift - as in there must be more to it. It's obvious you recognize that grace - the unmerited favor of God - does not invalidate the commandments. But I understand as I'm sure you do that we're not talking about living by the ten commandments, we're talking about earning your salvation. Ain't gonna happen, so you might as well give in to grace.

Steve

I keep seeing this recurring sentiment. "The Law is done away with and all we need is grace; however, that does not mean that the Law is done way with or that the commandments are invalidated, etc." Talk about perplexing.

I shall repeat... the law shall not save anyone because nobody can keep it perfectly. Nobody has ever kept the law perfectly accept for Jesus Christ. Why would our Example, Jesus Christ, keep the law perfectly if it was not important to strive for that perfection? When we fail to keep the law of God, we turn to Christ for forgiveness. If there is no law, there is no sin for "sin is the transgression of the law." If there is no transgression then there is no sin and no reason to be forgiven. The concept is so mind-bogglingly simple. Perhaps that's the problem here. Maybe it's too simple.

I keep seeing this recurring sentiment. "The Law is done away with and all we need is grace; however, that does not mean that the Law is done way with or that the commandments are invalidated, etc." Talk about perplexing.

I shall repeat...the law shall not save anyone because nobody can keep it perfectly. Nobody has ever kept the law perfectly accept for Jesus Christ. Why would our Example, Jesus Christ, keep the law perfectly if it was not important to strive for that perfection? When we fail to keep the law of God, we turn to Christ for forgiveness. If there is no law, there is no sin for "sin is the transgression of the law." If there is no transgression then there is no sin and no reason to be forgiven. The concept is so mind-bogglingly simple. Perhaps that's the problem here. Maybe it's too simple.

AJ,

I agree with you.. but you put yourself back under the law when it isn't necessary. We have an even a higher standard under Grace as far as sin goes. Look, I have the Ten Commandments on my wall and they are good. But if I break one... I don't have to sacrifice an animal on the alter, I don't go to Temple. That was then... the old covenant and this is now... new covenant.. and Jesus is all I need. The Law was given to show mankind just how hopeless he is. I am not under it... I am free! I can eat pork, I can do what I want on the Sabbath. I'm NOT under it!! I'm not under the law. Dude, if you want to put yourself back under it.. it is OK with me... you won't get a bigger crown in glory for it. Nuff said... we will never see eye to eye on this subject so go eat your speghetti and lets discuss something else.

[QUOTE=Tessy777]AJ,

I agree with you.. but you put yourself back under the law when it isn't necessary. We have an even a higher standard under Grace as far as sin goes. Look, I have the Ten Commandments on my wall and they are good.

So far, so good.

But if I break one... I don't have to sacrifice an animal on the alter, I don't go to Temple.

I will literally give you $100.00 if you can re-print one of my posts where I said that we should "sacrifice" an animal if we break a commandment. On the contrary. I have repeatedly stated that Jesus Chrsit is our final offering and ultimate sacrifice. His death on the cross erased the need for animal sacrifice. The sacrificial laws WERE done away with at Christ's death on the cross.

That was then... the old covenant and this is now... new covenant.. and Jesus is all I need.

And here are some words from the lips of Jesus, "If ye love Me, keep My commandments." John 14:15

The Law was given to show mankind just how hopeless he is. I am not under it... I am free!

Free to break the Law?

I can eat pork, I can do what I want on the Sabbath. I'm NOT under it!! I'm not under the law.

A time shall come when we all stand before the Lord Jesus Christ in judgment. When He asks you why you didn't obey God's Word, I hope you have a ready answer.
QUOTE]
Actually, it's Porterhouse Steak, big salad with blue cheese, baked taters, and rice milk (better for you than cow's milk or soy milk).

Dude.. if you are under the law... you need to sacrifice an animal. You don't get to pick what you are going to do. God said do it. (under the law)

I'm not breaking the law... because I am NOT UNDER THE LAW.

Jesus was talking to the Jewish people.. did you know there wasn't a Christian in the lot! They were Jewish men and women under the law. When he died and rose again.. he set me free. Not free to sin... but to live under Grace.. the new covenant.

What will I say when he asks why I didn't follow the law? I will say because I understood your Word and I didn't mix Law with Grace. I learned how to righlty divide it... I knew when you were talking directly to me and what was for me. I understood when I read each book of the Bible who it was written to, why it was written and it didn't get confusing, because you oh Lord aren't the author of confusion. ( and when he gets to you... I'm going to snicker) ;)

The LAW does not motivate us to produce fruit. It is God's GRACE that motivates us. The LAW motivates acts of the flesh 'dead WORKS'. God's GRACE motivates FRUIT of the Spirit. You can't strive to reach the LAW. It is unattainable.

This is a great comment.
Don't EVER mix law and grace!
Christians get upset at other Christians for not acting like Christians. (which I suppose is fair enough)
So they go around telling others to do do do... change change change...
If only they realised that this is a RELIGIOUS way of motivating that change of behaviour!
ANYTHING done to become a 'better Christian' is an act of the FLESH.
As soon as we stop depending on Jesus for our salvation and acceptance we are standing on our own works and that is dangerous!
So how do we get people to start acting like Christians??
By telling them who they ARE already!.
If you are in Christ, you are 100% righteous!!
Christianity isn't about DOING. Its about BEING.
It is only when you truly know who you ARE in Christ, that you are able to DO what God has called you to do.
Why? Because then it is motivated by the Holy Spirit!! By GRACE!!
Martin Luther got rid of some of this BULL CRAP mixture of law and grace... I think that some religion didn't get dealt with.
Unfortunately most people don't get that we are under a NEW covenant!! Jesus dealt with the law...
I HATE that word!
People want to be judged by it.. then that's fine... you won't make it by a LONGGG SHOT!!

Is it possible that it is the purpose of the law which has changed? In OT times, the purpose of the law was to instruct man on how to become acceptable to God. That plainly failed, so we are now, as always, accepted by God on the basis of faith. So the law now serves two functions: 1. It is there to point out our many failures, humbling us and causing us to see ourselves as sinners in need of help outside of ourselves(Jesus). 2. To show us God's ways and his expectations for our lives. Not in reference to the OT religious ordinances, but from the perspective of the moral code of the OT.

So the 10 commandments, for instance, are now seen not as the path to salvation, but the goal for the Christian who desires to live a life pleasing in the sight of God.

Is it possible that it is the purpose of the law which has changed?
Yes.

In OT times, the purpose of the law was to instruct man on how to become acceptable to God. That plainly failed, so we are now, as always, accepted by God on the basis of faith.
Now the Old Testament is our SOS = Show's Oyour Sin, whereas the New Testament, the new SOS, Show's Oyour Salvation.

Tess and Action Jackson - I've been observing your sparring match and what's clear to me is that both of you are making a very important and subtle point that the other is not seeing.

Tess - I see that your point is that as a believer that you are not obligated to keep the Mosaic Covenant, where things such as the following were required:

1) offering sacrifices for sin
2) abstaining from eating pork
3) observing the Sabbath

I understand you to be saying that you are not "under" this law. Meaning that you are not obligated to keep this Covenant and all of its vast ordinances, since Christ was the embodiment of this law and we are to follow him instead. In which case, I agree with you if that is what you are saying.

Action, I understand you to be saying that to say that I am not "under the law" is akin to saying that I am not under its authority or responsible for obeying it since "I have Jesus." On the one hand, you agree that the law does not bring life, Jesus does, but on the other hand, the law is also the embodiment of God's moral vision for his people. I wonder if I have you correctly there? I hope so.

I think I can see where you are both coming from.

Tess, I would say that even though as a Gentile, I am not under the Mosaic Covenant, I believe it is my duty to follow the embodiment of God's moral vision that is seen in that Covenant. I live by faith in Christ but Jesus and the Apostles also taught that faith without works is dead. In other words, a life of faith without the commitment of doing good is really shallow and empty. I mean, you strive to do good in your life, right? You are committed to living a life of righteousness and not evil because deep down you know it is a good response to God and required for true and genuine repentance. Yes, we’ll mess up because we are sinners but we pursue righteousness in spite of the fact that we fail. Consider the following:

1) He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers. But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and instead live lives of wickedness.

The message of Jesus and the Apostles is that we who have named the name of Christ must also live a life that is in keeping with that faith. If I say I love God and hate my neighbor, how does God's love dwell in me? If I say I have faith and yet refuse to grant mercy to others, can I really be a child of God?

Now, some would say, well how many good works do you have to do? See that's not the point. No amount of good works done in the name of God will make me worthy of eternal life because I fall short of God's standard and because God has never made that kind of offer to me anyway, since he sent Jesus to be the offering for my sin. But, I need to persevere in doing good and striving for goodness because to be a disciple of Jesus means learning to adopt God's values and strive to be like him... obviously we will fall short but that is why we are told to "strive."

The allergy that I see you having Action is that to say that I am free from following the law amounts to lawlessness and ungodliness. I’m sure for some people, maybe they really mean that. But I also think that as a Gentile (I’m assuming you are) you are not required to abstain from pork or to stone your neighbor if he blasphemes God. But I think you would agree that to not follow God’s moral vision contained in the Law would be a terrible thing in the name of “faith” or Jesus.

Comments?

Comments?Just one small one: ActionJackson hasn't posted here since 2007. Didn't want you to feel slighted if he didn't answer. :)

Just one small one: ActionJackson hasn't posted here since 2007. Didn't want you to feel slighted if he didn't answer. :)

Yeah, OK, then... well, wherever he may be he's missing in Action here.

Thanks, Karma

Yeah, ok, then...well, wherever he may be he's missing in Action here.



*rimshot*

:D

What do you folks think about the concept of Christ living his life in me, and therefore doing away with striving? Do we have to strive to bear fruit?

What do you folks think about the concept of Christ living his life in me, and therefore doing away with striving? Do we have to strive to bear fruit?
What's your definition of "strive"?

What do you folks think about the concept of Christ living his life in me, and therefore doing away with striving? Do we have to strive to bear fruit?

jlisenbe - I think I understand what you are asking.

Yes, Jesus uses the language that if we abide in him, that we will bear much fruit; abide in me and I will abide in you... something like that is what he says.

I think that it is God who is at work in us and yet we are also told to abide in Christ and to persevere in doing good.

As I quoted from Romans, Paul uses the language of striving to do good... that was not my choice of words but his. To strive in the sense in which I think he means is to fight or struggle to do good. Implied in that is the idea that doing good will not come naturally to us. If Paul intended for us not to strive but to just let go and let God, why then does he admonish us to strive? That is why in a certain sense striving is different from just letting go and letting God. I'm not even sure that that statement is necessarily consistent with some of the New Testament because people define that statement in vastly different ways.

If letting go and letting God is akin to saying, "don't push up against the boundaries of your life but accept your situation in life and accept that God's ways are different from yours", then that makes sense. But if letting go and letting God is something like "empty yourself of all personal desires and amibition; you shouldn't feel sadness or be concerned for anything; just give everything to God and don't have any cares or worries", then I don't think that is helpful nor is it what Paul is trying to say. The Psalms are filled with people crying out to God in trials and tribulations.

The Christian life is not like what is portrayed in Star Wars. The jedis use the force and tell each other to use the force. I think that this idea has pervaded Christian thought and people buy into the idea that the force (the Spirit of God) will just live out your life through his power, without your personal will or freedom to make your own choices. I don't think that is what we are talking about in the bible. I think that the Spirit of God bears witness to the truth, illuminates our hearts to it, and convicts us of what the truth is and encourages us to pursue and follow it. He is our Helped in that regard. But I don't think we are passive agents who are to empty ourselves of all personal interest and desire and just allow the Spirit to do whatever he desires in us. I don't think that is the role the Spirit plays in the world or in the lives of believers. It can't be that Christian theology is the same as Star Wars.

Jake,

I believe the Christian is only under Grace. The apostle Paul taught the law is the ministry of death. We can't keep it. Never could.. never will. But Grace and truth came by the Lord Jesus Christ.

I DO understand what you are saying... ( I think). How do we live our lives as Christians? How does the world know we are Christians and how can we show Christ to the lost world if we live like the sinners? We want to live our Christian life in a practical way. Which is the only way the book of James makes sense. It isn't about salvation. ( and I might add, Peter and the others had a difficult time understanding Paul's writings concerning grace. ) Peter states this in his epistles. Peter would slip back into the law enough so that Paul had to confront him for it.

We are given the gift of righteousness when we accept the Lord Jesus as our savior. It is a GIFT. When we believe the Father looks at us as perfect in Christ, without spot, without one sin, we will behave accordingly. It is all about what we BELIEVE. AND should I mess up, I am still righteous before my Father in heaven. Not because of what I have done.. but because of what Christ already did. I am already perfect in Christ. Not always my actions but my standing. I have found when I walk in that mindset, knowledge, and truth, I am far less likely to sin. Keeping my eyes on Jesus the author and finisher of my faith. Seriously, THINK on it. We are perfect when God looks at us. I am RIGHTEOUS. We don't really believe it, or it would change every Christian. Who wants to go sin when they wake up in soaked in that awesome truth? I don't. Grace is our only hope for practical christian life. NOT the law. The law stirs my flesh up and makes me want to sin. And if everyone was honest they would admit the law does that for them as well. Romans tells us point blank that it does.

The only thing the law does for mankind is show us we are lost and without hope. That's IT! There is no power to help us live right in the law. ONLY in grace can we be what we should be.

I think that is what Tessy777 meant. Don't know for sure. :) She wasn't very good at expressing herself without all the "Dudes" and sarcastic comments. But she was darn cute.. don't you think? ;) she just needed a little class!

Excellent explanation! (I have to spread some love around before I can give you a green :confused:)


Jake,

I believe the Christian is only under Grace. The apostle Paul taught the law is the ministry of death. We can't keep it. Never could..never will. But Grace and truth came by the Lord Jesus Christ.

I DO understand what you are saying...( i think). How do we live our lives as Christians? How does the world know we are Christians and how can we show Christ to the lost world if we live like the sinners? We want to live our Christian life in a practical way. Which is the only way the book of James makes sense. It isn't about salvation. ( and i might add, Peter and the others had a difficult time understanding Paul's writings concerning grace. ) Peter states this in his epistles. Peter would slip back into the law enough so that Paul had to confront him for it.

We are given the gift of righteousness when we accept the Lord Jesus as our savior. It is a GIFT. When we believe the Father looks at us as perfect in Christ, without spot, without one sin, we will behave accordingly. It is all about what we BELIEVE. AND should i mess up, i am still righteous before my Father in heaven. Not because of what I have done..but because of what Christ already did. I am already perfect in Christ. Not always my actions but my standing. I have found when I walk in that mindset, knowledge, and truth, i am far less likely to sin. Keeping my eyes on Jesus the author and finisher of my faith. Seriously, THINK on it. We are perfect when God looks at us. I am RIGHTEOUS. We don't really believe it, or it would change every Christian. Who wants to go sin when they wake up in soaked in that awesome truth? I don't. Grace is our only hope for practical christian life. NOT the law. The law stirs my flesh up and makes me want to sin. And if everyone was honest they would admit the law does that for them as well. Romans tells us point blank that it does.

The only thing the law does for mankind is show us we are lost and without hope. That's IT! There is no power to help us live right in the law. ONLY in grace can we be what we should be.

I think that is what Tessy777 meant. don't know for sure. :) She wasn't very good at expressing herself without all the "Dudes" and sarcastic comments. but she was darn cute..don't ya think? ;) she just needed a little class!

Dave,

:)

Jake,

I believe the Christian is only under Grace. The apostle Paul taught the law is the ministry of death. We can't keep it. Never could..never will. But Grace and truth came by the Lord Jesus Christ.

I wholeheartedly agree, Tess. We definitely see eye to eye on this. I would never dispute that because I understand that in keeping the law, I would only prove myself to be a sinner so eternal life would have to come another way and that is through Christ.



I DO understand what you are saying...( i think). How do we live our lives as Christians? How does the world know we are Christians and how can we show Christ to the lost world if we live like the sinners? We want to live our Christian life in a practical way. Which is the only way the book of James makes sense. It isn't about salvation. ( and i might add, Peter and the others had a difficult time understanding Paul's writings concerning grace. ) Peter states this in his epistles. Peter would slip back into the law enough so that Paul had to confront him for it.


What you have mentioned above is the point that I think ActionJackson was trying to make and is the same point I am trying to make. Not only would I say that “we want to live our Christian life in a practical way” but I’d say that we “must” live our lives in a practical way if our declaration of faith would have any genuineness to it. Let me explain through an example that we all can relate to.

------ FYI, this is a completely fictitious scenario.

Imagine one day that you tell me about the gospel of Jesus Christ because you believe me to be an unbeliever. You explain to me that I am a rebel against God and that I deserve to be condemned for my sin. You further go on to explain to me that I must repent and turn from my lifestyle of rebellion and evil against God and become a disciple of Jesus and become his servant. In faith, I must see that the death he died was the death I deserved and that if I am willing to believe in Christ and follow him, that God is willing to forgive me and grant me forgiveness for my sins and eternal life. I say “ok, that sounds good to me; I believe.” And I go on my way.

Let’s say some years later, we meet again and you come to understand that in my life I have not changed much at all. My perspective about what is good and right is really no different. You knew me as someone who always wanted revenge when people wronged me and I am still that way. You knew me as someone who would often steal things and hustle people for money and after some conversation I tell you that I recently stole a Rolex watch from some old man from a nursing home and I joke about it. You also knew that I was married and how I often joked about how I loved the thrill of trying to meet young college girls while I was away on business trips for some extramarital activity. In fact, after talking for a few more minutes I detail how I am juggling two women and my wife knows nothing about it. As we part ways I mention to you that I am still active in the church and I even thank God for all of the blessings he has given to me.

End of scenario ----------------------

So, as you read the above scenario, Tess, do you question the genuineness of my faith? Does it really matter how I live my life or is it “all about what we BELIEVE?”

Now in light of what I have said, let’s read what James says: “now someone may argue, ‘Some people have faith; others have good deeds.’ But I say, ‘How can you show me your faith if you don't have good deeds? I will show you my faith by my good deeds.’” What James is saying is that we demonstrate our faith by our good deeds. To say I have faith and yet no good deeds, my faith is empty…it’s dead. Faith and works go hand in hand because the good works that I do demonstrate that there is genuineness and sincerity to my faith…that my confession and belief is God is one with substance and not just mere words.

So the rub is this: are works bringing about my salvation? To which we would both agree, no! No amount of good deeds will bring about my salvation because I am a sinner. The very substance of me is sinful at my core and I am damnable without God’s mercy. But if repentance is truly repentance, the commitment of our hearts change and our minds and hearts are set on a different course where we learn and practice the virtues of goodness and godliness. Our hearts long to do the will of God, not continue on in the dictates of our own old man.

But what about when we fail morally? Ahh, yes that is the question. This is the issue Paul is addressing in Romans 6:

“I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[b] Christ Jesus our Lord.”

We are told to persevere in doing good because of our "human limitations." We once served sin but now we are told to serve righteousness. Well, what we often find in serving righteousness is that we have a war going on inside of us that make doing good hard and challenging because we are going against the grain of our natures. We are not morally perfect creatures yet and we are fighting a battle.

The conclusion of what I am trying to say here is that there is a difference between someone who is a believer and struggles with sin…someone who in the inward part of his heart longs to do good and sees that doing good is the best thing but fails at that. There’s a difference between that person and someone who claims to be a believer but is not committed to goodness as a manner of life. He is not bothered by his sin; in fact, he revels in it. He can claim to be a Christian but his life is not marked by a person struggling towards goodness but someone disposed towards his sinful passions with all the commitment and fervor a godless person can have…because God’s ways are not what motivates him.

So, we must believe in God for mercy because we cannot earn salvation. And we must persevere in doing good also, in response to God’s mercy. It’s like James put it: “So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone.”

Jake,

interesting post. I agree for the MOST part. :)

first lets get this out of the way... ActionJackson who left and won't came back because he was offended ( not by Christians but by others) was a 7th day Adventist. He was so steeped in the law mixed with grace it was difficult for me to agree with many of the things he believed about grace, the law, and christianity. I liked him as a person though.

Ok, secondly when a person is saved, sealed with the Holy Spirit, he or she will want to do good works. The Holy Spirit resides in them and he is HOLY and it is going to happen it is only a matter of time. But, sometimes it does take TIME.
As Christians we expect people to get their act together right away. For instance a friend of mine who lived with a man for 18 years got saved. The man wouldn't marry her and because of that she wouldn't leave him even though they were living in sin and she knew it was wrong. I shook my head back in the day. I stood in judgement of her to a certain extent, she was saved for the love, she knew it was wrong! Get it together chickeepoo.(that is what I actually thought! Did Jesus ever tell that woman at the well to get her life together, to repent? Instead he showed her grace, showed her who he was! THAT is life changing.

What I have learned since:

It takes us time to change, not all of us, some do right away. But the Lord is longsuffering, and some of us are really slow learners. Sheep are really, really stupid. It is no accident we are called sheep.

Lets use an example from the Bible. Take Rahab the harlot. We find her story in the OT but she is mentioned also in book of James AND in Hebrews. Was it her faith and only her faith that saved her and justified her before God and put in in the direct blood line of our Lord Jesus Christ? Or was it her works too? She acted on what she believed.

Think about it. She heard and believed 40 years before Josuha and caleb came knocking on her door. She knew the red sea parted and believed ALL the Lord had done for the Israelites. Her behavior didn't change.. she was still a harlot. BUT when the spies came what did she do? She helped them because she believed God gave them land. Now, what was her works? She helped them.. but notice how she helped them! She lied, she deceived... wow! She broke a few commandments just in helping. Did God see that as righteous OR was he looking at her FAITH and what she believed. Because her works, while the result was good, was clearly wrong.
She acted on what she believed. It wasn't her ACTIONS that were righteous, it was her Faith.

The book of James is simply about practical christian living. If I share the gospel with someone who is hungry and cold, and but I don't feed them real food and put clothes on them and help them find shelter.. what GOOD does my faith do? The person in need will look at me like I'm crazy.

There are plenty of people who know Jesus is God and died on the cross. But saying you are a Christian and really being one is two different things. Only the Lord Jesus knows the heart. According to the bible, the true believer WILL bear good fruit. So I never worry too much about works in a person... it will happen if they are truly saved.

Quoting classyT

There are plenty of people who know Jesus is God and died on the cross. But saying you are a Christian and really being one is two different things.

I agree with the above sentence. Though I like to say "saved" rather than "christian." Because many are practicing christians, yet they may not actually be saved.

But a point I would like to make is that salvation is as of yet incomplete in all those who are still on Earth presently. What I mean by that is that only their souls have been reborn (renewed, saved). Their bodies are still under "the law of sin." (Romans 7:25) And in that sense the saved appear no different (to us) from those who do good works and are yet unsaved.