I don't quite understand what is going on. My wife of 12 years asked for a divorce 4 weeks ago. She said she didn't think we could work out our differences. I do, but that's besides the point. We've had some road blocks but nothing serious like adultry or abuse. We also have two children.
I think it is a sin to give up when kids are involved without trying everything.

Since this initial declaration she has made no attempt to get the process in gear. I tried a couple times, but she ended up having to cancel (we are separated). In fact she has been acting very friendly, almost like there is no real problem.

What is going through her mind?

In my opinion, just from reading what you had written, it almost seems to me that she is making 'empty threats'. Meaning that, perhaps she was feeling frustrated? Unwanted? Not needed? And, by saying she wants a divorce, but never following through.. she is at least getting more attention from you now than before her divorce threats. Does any of this make any sense to you? Did the two of you have quality time together after the children were born? Did previous conversations go to almost none after a few years? Maybe this is her 'cry' for attention. Perhaps thd two of you could compromise on the values you said you two differ on.. stay in the middle of the road without causing any tension.. give each other some one-on-one attention... suggest a babysitter, even if the two of you stay close to home to have some 'together' time. I can only go by the little info you have given here.. but I'm sensing it's her way of saying she wants attention, too. I hope this is all it is. You say you want to stay in the marriage.. maybe it just needs this little bit of 'fine-tuning'. Good Luck to you.

Hi Delilah, Thank you for your thoughts. To answer some of your questions: We have tried counceling, and "dating", and we have worked on finding middle ground. We have made progress, I feel, but it is still not perfect. We still argue from time to time. She just feels like we will never be able to compromise enough to make it work.

She could be making idle threats, but it feels real.

Maybe she needs individual counseling. Maybe there are things she would be willing to open up to a therapist about if you weren't in the room. I am sure that sounds a little scary, but if your marriage is to improve then maybe your wife needs to take some time and sort through her feelings and re-focus. Have you asked her to try it? Maybe a suggestion that seems non-accusatory like, "For some reason I feel that we seem unable to communicate well, and I am concerned that it seems you have a hard time opening up to me. Would you consider speaking to a counselor? I feel like maybe if you were to open up to someone else you'd eventually be able to include me. I'd really like to be the person you lean on again." Make the statements about you, and yes, use the word "feel" a lot. It takes the pressure off her. Good Luck!

I agree with much of what vlee had written here. Nothing will be 100% perfect.. but the fact that you are both working towards it is a huge improvement in itself! Are you both perfectionists.. is that why you and your wife still don't think 'it's' perfect yet? Or, are your differences in opinion so far apart that you still have a huge gap in the middle? In my opinion, unless the arguing is at full volume and hurtful, then you could both learn how to control the conversation before arguing gets to the bad stage. Counseling would help.. or, counseling to learn how to converse in a way to share thoughts without attacking each other verbally.

I hope you can both work out your differences. It seems like you want really want to figure this out and put it all behind you. Good for you! I wish you the best.

Well we finally have made plans to talk this weekend. She definitely sounds to be serious about wanting a divorce. Are there usually second thoughts by the one who wants a divorce? What if anything would cause her to reconsider? Even though I want her to stay, I don't feel it would be wise to ask her. It should be her choice without any guilt or influence. Do you have any advice for me going into this meeting, as you know my desires to fix this and not end it?

I am contemplating feeling her out during the talks, and if it seems as if she has any doubts I want to see if she would be willing to do the following:

Put off the divorce for 6 months. In this time we seek counceling to rebuild our friendship.
We don't talk about getting back together and we don't talk about divorce. Just fix our friendship. After 6 months we see where we are at that point. If she still wants a divorce I will give it to her no questions asked.

Thank you

Well, this is certainly going in the right direction! I like the idea that you have set the weekend aside to talk. But you wrote, "Even though I want her to stay, I don't feel it would be wise to ask her." Please, in my opinion.. and being that I am a woman... you have to let her know that you want her to stay! You have to make her feel needed, wanted.. not only as the mother of your children, but also as the person you had vowed to love forever. It seems to me that you DO feel that way about her, right? If that's true, then PLEASE.. this is your opportunity to let her know how you feel.. let her know you want her and need her.. that you love her. If she loves you, then she will also do whatever is possible to hold the marriage together. I think your proposal of trying to regain the 'friendship' that you both had is a great idea. Yes, give it six months. But, also try to rekindle the love you had felt as your friendship was building. Do some of the things you used to do when you were 'courting'. If she agrees with counseling, then try that, too. Sometimes two people are THINKING they are saying the same thing, but it comes out differently in the translation. Sometimes people need a counselor just to help you both understand that you're both on the same page, but you are just articulating it differently to one another. Think if these two days (weekend) as your last chance to really let her feel how you feel. Even go as far as to say, "I'm not sure I can say all that is on my mind .. maybe it won't come out right .. so just let me say it all." People have to work at what they REALLY want in life.. the same holds true for relationships. Have something that she will find endearing this weekend.. a notecard or love letter she may have given you.. a special photo of the two of you or with your children... something you may have cooked for her.. a favorite dessert.. a very special restaurant.. wear a shirt she gave you that she really liked on you... find something that will pull her in a little closer during your talk.

Please give us an update after the weekend, OK? I for one would love to hear what is happening. Best wishes and best of luck to you.

You are beautiful Delilah! I will take your advice and check back after the weekend.

Thank you

Sorry I am just to curious as to what issues could lead a couple of 12 years to a divorce? It has to be major if your separated, so if you can be a little more specific, so I can understand why she is so adamant to end this relationship.

I have to say - if you don't want a divorce - do not leave anything unsaid. Don't be afraid to tell her EXACTLY how you feel. You do not want to look back and think - if I had only...
It will eat you up inside.
People can change their minds - I did.

I have to say - if you don't want a divorce - do not leave anything unsaid. Don't be afraid to tell her EXACTLY how you feel. You do not want to look back and think - if I had only....
It will eat you up inside.
People can change their minds - I did.

Absolutely! You have to let her know exactly how you feel. I couldn't agree with this poster more. Best wishes.

OK, on your advice I have written down what I wish to tell my wife. I am planning on talking to her tonight, so if anyone catches this soon please give me some feedback. To corny? All right? Did I leave anything out? Thank you, thank you...

As follows:

Dear Tami, I don’t know exactly where to begin or what to say, but I hope this comes out right. Please read this with an open mind and an open heart:

There has never been anything more important and special in my life than my marriage to you. If you have ever doubted this I am truly sorry. I have only wanted to love you unconditionally. I want you in my life. I need you in my life. I have taken an oath willingly to commit my love to you eternally. I don’t think I could break this oath if I tried.

I am now having second thoughts about this divorce. I think our marriage is too important to throw away. We can have many more years of happiness together. I know there are other men who could and would love you, but I know for a fact that there is no other man on this planet that can love you with the passion and depth I hold for you. It is just not possible. If I can guarantee you a marriage that will exceed your every desire and expectation, with a good man than is completely devoted to you, would you be willing to give it another try?

I realize we have had problems that have yet to be worked out. I am absolutely positive that we can fix these to where everyone is content. The love we bring to each other can overcome any obstacle. I am sure of it.

I don’t expect us to jump right back in to full speed marriage. What I recommend is that we forget about divorce, at least for now, and not talk about the marriage either. I suggest we get back with a certified counselor and work on rebuilding our friendship first. Work through our differences and learn to accept each other for who we are. Let’s learn to communicate with a better perspective of who we are.

I know without a shadow of a doubt Tami that we belong together. I can feel it to my soul, and I think you feel it too. We ARE soul mates. We can make each other happy, whole, and content.

I dream of the day that we can all be together as one family, under one roof. The way it should be. We can be a model couple and model parents. We can have it all, because I want to give you everything that you deserve and more.

There is so much I want to say, but it would be better to show you. Tami, please don’t leave. Let me prove to you that you made the right choice. You will not regret it. This I am sure. I will make you the happiest, proudest woman you ever could have dreamed.

I love you with everything ounce of my being. And always will…

Seems very sweet to me, and you used the word "we" instead of "I", so it doesn't come across as pushy or insensitive. I hope she reconsiders the divorce.

I just read your post now and depending on which coast you live on.. it may be too late for you to read mine. But, for what it's worth, I think your letter is very forthright and directly from the heart. Very well written. I sincerely hope and pray that your wife will understand you better through your words here.. I would have to think that she can see and feel what you are going through emotionally here.. doing your best to "woo" her back. As I read it, I thought... you're putting the WHOLE burden on yourself.. promising that you'll make her happy, proud, etc. Gee, it's a two-way street.. I hope she understands that. You BOTH have to work at improving the communication and friendship to regain the total trust and love your once had. I felt bad when I read that you're "promising' everything she had ever wanted. :-( But, it's how you felt when you wrote it.. and your words were coming from your heart.. so it's fine. What I'm trying to say is that you deserve as much happiness.. so don't take all of the burden of making this relationship work. Hopefully, your wife will agree and work together with you.. and it'll be a joint effort. What a sweet, sweet, letter. Please let us know how your meeting with her turned out! I'm keeping postitve thoughts for the two of you.

Ok we were not able to have our talk because her schedule was full, again. So I just handed her the letter and asked her to read it when she had a moment. I went home and didn't hear from her all night. I was assuming that either she was not interested and didn't have the guts to call and let me down. Or she was contemplating the letter and didn't want to talk about it last night. Needless to say I didn't sleep a wink. I felt good because I finally told her exactly how I feel, and I felt bad with the thought that this could be the final attempt.

So, on to this morning. My wife brought over my son, and we had a chance to talk about it. She initially did not want to discuss it, so I just started the conversation without her. She couldn't help but join in. She was still reluctant, as was to be expected, but she did agree that we could hold off the divorce and seek counseling. She asked if I could go first and she would join me after a few sessions.

Some of the past did come up and she said she is having a hard time forgiving and forgetting. I told her that I have forgiven her for things she's done to hurt me, and hoped that she would be able to get to a better place; in time, and after counseling.

So in a nut shell, it seems that she is open to the idea of a possible reconciliation. She wants some time to think about things. I just kept encouraging her that this was the right thing to do, that our marriage and kids were well worth the effort. I also told her that the marriage can be better than it has ever been if we just stick in there. She is very pessimistic at this point. But hopefully this will improve as we progress.

What do you think? Did I do well? What should I be thinking or doing in the next few days, weeks? How should I play this hand? What works in wooing woman, especially a wife who has one and a half feet out the door? Should I give her a certain amount of time between talks?

I feel cautiously optimistic about this. I pray for her to turn the corner, and for me to have the strength and wisdom to see it to fruition.

Well, first thing, if you said you were going to do something - you follow through. You need to get into a counselor asap - if that is what was agreed upon.
My thing has always been - if you say your are going to do something you had better do it. By not, it breaks down trust little by little because you can't count on a person and it shows that you are not committed.

I don't know if I would be in her face all the time. I would let her know that you are there. If you call to talk to your son - talk to her and just keep it casual - don't always focus in on what your problems are.
You could send her flowers at work or send her little notes. Just to say Hi and I love you. Or to say you were thinking of her today and you wanted to let her know.
Nothing over the top or anything - just subtle gestures. The time to hash out everything is in counseling.

I think you should be cautious right now - she has given an inch (be happy about that) but you are not out of the woods yet. Just take it slowly. What's that old saying - "slow and steady wins the race."

Yes, I think you did very well being that your wife had a full schedule. I liked the way you initiated the conversation when she dropped off your son. I also agree with the last poster.. follow-up on your promise of seeing a counselor... the sooner the better. Don't let there be a time lapse, otherwise your wife will think your words were empty. Make the appointment and let her know the date that had been set. She'll know you're serious.

Let your mind go back to when you were both dating. Was there something you did that she just loved? Note cards, flowers, a certain brand of chocolates, hummus, tofu.. <laughing>? Send a well-worded card (loving card) to her once a week to keep you ever on her mind. Flowers would be nice, but you don't have to be extravagant. A small little bunch of spring flowers in a low vase would be SO sweet! Do you have Trader Joe stores in your part of the States? The reason I ask is because they sell inexpensive, lovely flowers.. and even small, potted single plants. Trader Joe's is a trendy, small food store. Anyway, the idea is not a huge arrangement of flowers, but something intimate and small which you let her know you are thinking of her. Don't go for a long period without talking to her. Check in with her just to say 'hi' every 2-3 days.. a short hello to let her know you're thinking about her.. nothing heavy.

Priorities first, though! Make that appointment for the counselor! Please! And, let her know you made it.

I'm really pulling for you. I hope the two of you re-discover yourselves with one another. Keep us updated, OK? Best wishes to you...

I still am curiuos as to the events that led to all of this in the first place.

Well, there is quite a history to what has lead us to this point Taliniman. 12 years to be exact. But the main problems have been problems that many couples face, which are money and kids. She has two kids from previous unwed relationships. I stepped in to be a stepdad and tried the best I could. I think I did a good job, but there were the usual authority type issues that plagued us. Without any experience or a manual this was a difficult situation for all of us. After about six years of this we got to a point where my wife was siding with the kids in front of them, which made me pull in the other direction. Further, my wife and her kids all have ADD, and it was rough dealing with them at times.
SO my wife took the kids and left. I wanted them to stay and have family counseling, but she has a tendency of flight instead of fight. We had two more kids of our own, who we share custody. Even though I gave her money for a new place, and have since made peace with her kids. She keeps suing me for the same crime, that I really didn't commit. She left, but doesn't see it that way. I have also offered to build a new house for her and her mom and sister, and kids. They all live together now. But twice they have backed out.
Our other big problem has been money. She spends, has no credit, and has put us in hot water for various irresponsible reasons. She loves to spoil her kids, and live for today. I am a bit more conservative. I prefer to save for tomorrow. There are pluses and minuses to both of our values. We just need to come to a middle ground. Another issue is that her father left when she was 13. I think she has a hard time believing that I really love her and won't leave. No matter how much I reassure her, and do things for her, it is never enough. Hence the need for serious counseling. She has a hard time taking responsibility for any of our problems and see her issues as solved. She thinks the problems mainly stem from my issues. Maybe she's right, maybe she's wrong, maybe she's half right.
All I know is that we need a top flight therapist who will help us both see the light, and find the love we have for each other. I know it's there. It never left. And even though I have pointed out her problems, she is a beautiful, sweet, fun, hard working, person. She is a wonderful mother, and was, at one time, a very loving wife. If I didn't have faith in her I would have let it go by now.

I hope this sheds a little more light on the subject. There's always more to say, but I won't take up your time any longer. Thanks for listening, interest, and concern.

I am glad to hear she is willing to try counseling. For now, I wouldn't put any more pressure on her. Attend a few sessions and let her know how they go. Then ask her to join you for the next one. All the issues you have and have had will be brought to light and discussed there, so save them for that room. Take a slow but steady approach. Best of luck.

Your on a good path with the counseling, even if she chooses not to go, it will help you see things in a realistic light. Does she take medication for ADD and is she maintaining her doctor visits? Sorry for all the questions, just trying to get a clear picture and I'm assuming that she stays with her mother who is alone.

No, I appreciate the questions and interest. You're very considerate.

She has been taking meds for her ADD and has made great progress. Her living situation is a little odd. Her mother, who is divorced has the house in her name. She is retired so my wife covers the mortgage. Also living there is her younger sister, who has no money and one 12 year old son. It's a full house there. But the neighborhood has tons of kids and
They all like living there. My wife has her own money, autonomy, a built-in support system, and has been sort of living out her missed teen years. She has a network of friends, male and female, through her bowling league. They do a lot together, and my wife may have even dated some of them. It doesn't concern me too much. I'm glad she has friends. I can't help but feel like I've been replaced a bit. And her situation is comfortable enough to really not need me. But I'm not going to get bent out of shape about it. I've got my own life too. I'll just show her what a great guy I am, and worthy of her time. It'll be her loss if she doesn't stick it out. Naturally it will be my loss too. Hopefully, we can work it out. We really are good together, and for each other. I'm beginning counseling next week.

One other question. Your advice to take it slow will be followed. But what is slow? Do I ask her on a date now and then? Or just friendly talk on the phone once in a while? I like the idea of sending her letters or small thoughful gifts once a week. I got to tell you, it's nice to have my own private Cyrano's here :) I've been at this love game for a long time but I still have lots to learn. Thank you all!

You could ask her out and then see how it goes on the date. Maybe she will ask you out after the initial date - if not - give it a week or two and ask again.
Nothing to "in your face". And just remember the "rule" of dating - if you want to go out with some one on Friday or Saturday - Ask Before Wednesday. After wed. it implies that you think she has nothing going on or she was an after thought.
I didn't make the rules - that is just what they are.

Slow is relaxing, and taking your time to get to know someone. In your case its rebuilding the lines of communication and interest. Even the best relationships have to be spruced up a little. I think if you leaned more toward fun, she would appreciated it and don't smother her with deep issues or a lot of unwanted attention right now. Let it flow and have a good time, and pay attention.

I really want my husband to write me a letter like you wrote your wife, and we are no where near divorce! Having said that, I am so glad you are taking care of things like a man, I am also glad that she might be willing to do more to patch up the things that went wrong! You sure are what we all call a "real man".. Thanks for reasuring us that there are some of you left...

Thank you Startover, I appreciate your kind words. I wish my wife would appreciate my sentiments even half as much.
I did call her today to tell her about the counselor, and that it was recommended that we both attend the first meeting to alleviate any possible biases. I guess this is standard procedure. My wife seemed ambivalent and said she would check her schedule and let me know. I'll go with or without her.
Guys, this is definitely going to be a slow uphill climb. I am not discouraged in the least however. No need to run from a challenge if it is deemed worthy. And it is...

You could also change the schedule to fit hers, but it may piss her off, since she probably will take it as a trap.

I give you a lot of credit for knowing what you want and pursuing it. It sounds to me that your wife has a LOT of self-confidence. She came into the marriage with two children who weren't yours.. she had two more children with you.. she spends a lot of time with her friends and perhaps had even dated a few of them , she sides with her two 'original children'... and, yet she's 'splitting hairs' with you over some minor disagreements? It seems to me that she a LOT to be grateful for in having you as her husband. Your letter to her alone was heartwarming and definitely something all wives would love to receive from their husbands. All of that being said.. I know that it takes two to make a marriage whole. Making the appointment for the counselor is the first best step.. you are showing your wife that you are serious. I sincerely hope that she 'checks her schedule' and gets to the first meeting with you. Did you say your wife works? What in her schedule could prohibit her from going to the first meeting? You need to go through these steps to know in your heart that you're trying everything possible to keep the marriage together. I hope that your wife feels the same. Regarding the cards or small flower arrangements.. do one of those (or similar) once a week. You could ask her out for coffee, light lunch, or dinner on the weekends. But, as someone here had suggested.. try to ask early in the week. For this week, it wouldn't hurt to try for at least a coffee date. Personally, I don't think it's good to allow too many days to pass without having even a small amount of contact with her. As you had mentioned, she spends much time with her friends and you think they may even take up enough of her time so that she feels she doesn't need you. Don't smother her, but, make sure you're around in ways so you're on her mind.. like through the cards, flowers, or the weekend date.
I wish you the best. What a dynamic guy you are.. still pursuing the love of your life even with the barricades she is attempting to put up. Stay constant.. and persevere. Keep us updated.

familyman2, anything happen over the weekend between you and your wife? Did you get to see her or talk to her at all? Or, did you get to send a card or flowers? Is your first counseling session this week?

Take care. Let us know how things are going when you have a chance.

Hi, I just got back into town today. I left Sat morning to visit relatives in Ohio with my son.
To tell you the truth I thought I would leave my wife alone during this trip, and maybe give her the gift of missing me instead. We'll see. I just feel funny about sending her anything because she may take it as pressure. What do you think? I know you recommend small talk and small gifts. I like the idea too. However, I don't want to push her away. I don't know if she will join me at counseling on Frdiay yet. I'll talk to her tonight or within the next couple days. I am very torn about this. Obviously I would like to talk to her, to see her, to send her flowers. It is a delicate situation. I do not want her to think of this as pressure to attend counseling or anything else. What to do...

As long as you don't mention counseling or anything like that in a note or card - I don't think that is pressure. I have learned that you have to fight for what is yours. If you want your marriage - don't be afraid of taking chances and doing what you need to to get your results. I am not suggesting you stalk her - but don't just sit around and be passive.
If you sent her a card. Just get a "thinking of you" card. Or something with a funny picture that is blank inside. Just simply write Hi, was thinking of you...
You get the idea.
If she is feeling pressured - she will let you know.

Well, I went to the counselor today. She is an excellent counselor and I really think she can help us, or at least me. My wife didn't come. She wanted me to go to the first one or two alone. I guess she felt I needed to work on some issues. Right or wrong, it helped me. I felt better after the session. I told my wife how good the counselor was, she said she was glad I liked it. Then I said I felt confident that this counselor could help us, and my wife seemed ambivalent and said we'll see. I kept a positive attitude and left with my daughter. On your advice, I did get her a gift for mother's day. I'll let my daughter give it to her on Sunday.

I am still positive that we can work this out. I am just proceeding with the thoughts that we already have started to rebuild our friendship. And she definitely knows that my intentions are to ultimately bring the family back together.

But am I wrong for doing this? She told me four weeks ago she wanted to divorce. I'm the one who is trying to save this marriage. She has yet to really come out and say she wants this. Maybe she's confused, maybe she wants out but can't find the way to say it, maybe she does want to stay but is still undecided. Whatever the case, am I being an arse for trying to stop the divorce and keep our marriage alive? Shouldn't I just apologize for pushing for this and give her the divorce she asked for? I feel like I'm walking a tight rope!
If I didn't feel like we had a chance at true happiness, and a chance get the kids under one roof, it would be an easier decision. But this is going to determine the rest of my life, and I am determined to keep trying. I just want to know if I am justified for doing this.
Can you sense the struggle I have going on in my head?

I'm glad to hear that you went to the conselor and left feeling good about it. I wish your wife would have gone with you, but she didn't. It seems that she really thinks that you are the one with the issue that needs to be worked out since she wants you to go alone to the first two sessions.

You shouldn't question your intentions. You are half of your marriage. You have the right to do all you can to keep it together if you love her as much as you say. Why would you want to give in if you love her so much? You, like everyone, have to persevere for everything you want.. you can't back down. It would look to your wife, "Well, he just gave up .. he doesn't want to even try to win me back!". If you don't go with what's in your heart you will surely lose any chance you have with her.

We here can only help by hearing one side of the story. From what you had just written, you could be right on your observations. Maybe she wants out of the marriage, but can't get herself to REALLY tell you, or, she could be unsure and is waiting to see how the counseling could help. Do you think she could be seeing someone else? In either case, if this was happening to me and I still truly loved my husband... I would do all I could. I would call him and leave a brief voice mail saying I was thinking about him.. I'd send a note or card once a week just to keep me on his mind. I wouldn't give up trying to get us back together. I'd always have to wonder the rest of my life if I had tried hard enough to win him back.

In my opinion, you should do as much as you can, or are comfortable doing, until your wife tells you it's not working or there IS hope. If it eventually comes to a point where you are trying and trying but not receiving any positive feedback from your wife.. then it would be time to sit down and have a serious talk with her. You don't want to be an ostrich with his head in the sand.. you have to hear the truth at some point and not let her string you along.

I think it's great that you're trying to keep the marriage together by going to counseling and being more accepting of things neither of you agree with. If everyone gave up, marriages would be like "throw away marriages or lives".

I'm glad you got her a Mother's Day gift. She is the mother of your children, after all.

As before, please keep us updated. Good luck to you!

Can I just say Familyman thank God for you, if there were more men like you there just might be a lot less divorces! I commend you for your efforts and being a real man!

I think it is okay to make the effort for you marriage, but really focus on you as well... its like killing 2 birds with one stone... you can't go wrong. It sounds like you are doing it for her and your marriage, but think of it for you personally as well. If you are making the efforts, and changes on your half... and it works out, great! If it doesn't, you did all you could. And showing her you are making the effort, with out the pressure for her... but you can tell her what you are learning, and hope that she makes the effort as well. If she doesn't, then it wasn't going to work anyway... a marriage can only work when 2 people are committed to making it work. :)
And I agree with the above person, KUDOS TO YOU!!

Hey thank you all so much. This is what I needed to hear. It gives me more hope to proceed. Delilah, I don't think she is seeing someone else. I asked her straight out about it a couple weeks ago, and she emphatically denied it. I know she has male friends from her bowling league. It's possible she has dated, or is dating one of them. But I am number 1, going to give her the benefit of the doubt that she is telling me the truth. And 2, it doesn't matter to me either way. I'm going to try to get her back anyway. I'll steal her back from the guy who stole her from me. And I won't give up unless she either says she's 100% out or 100% in.

Some of the past did come up and she said she is having a hard time forgiving and forgetting. I told her that I have forgiven her for things she's done to hurt me, and hoped that she would be able to get to a better place; in time, and after counseling.

Sorry to be pesky, or nosy but could you elaborate a bit on this comment. Just want to get a clear picture.

I know that when you are in the middle of this rollercoaster, a minute feels like an hour. I know you want this to happen now. YOu have to give it time. Continue to be patient. I do have to say that you are probably right in having this feelings of doubt. SHe isn't giving you much to work with. But again, that will happen in time.
Continue on your path - work on you. Either way, you will come out of this with a new prospective and that is never bad.

Thanks NowWhat, slow and steady. Got it.

Taliniman, to answer your question would take some time. Suffice it to say after 12 years of being together we have had our share of hurtful deeds. Basically, she is a walking financial disaster. I have had to bail her out countless times. And many times she has lied about payments not made, that hurt my good credit rating. Or not giving me all her income info when I did our taxes, and I ended up having to pay back taxes. Dumb stuff really. She makes good money, but can't save a nickel. Then she starts spending all of my money. Truthfully, I don't care about the money. I care about the honesty and trust surrounding it. Now what have I done? Well when I became an instant step-father I tried the best I could. I did a lot of good things for her kids. But I also tended to be too strict sometimes. I think it had to do with my upbringing. And also because I felt like the outsider, which I was. There's no excuse for my behavior but I did tend to be overbearing at times. It was just a tough situation for all of us. We should have been in counseling from the get go. When we separated, she left the house with the kids to go live with her mom and sister. The house is in my name, and I paid for it. I wasn't about to leave it to someone with no credit. I gave her 10K to help out when she left. I was just thinking she would go for a few months, and then come back. Well, she hasn't yet, and she still resents me for it. Since then, I have made peace with her kids. In fact we get along great. I have offered to expand my house so she and her mom and sister could come live with us. I have also offered to build a new home for everyone. Every time we have an argument , however, she just keeps bringing this up. It's like I'm getting sued constantly for the same crime. Even though it wasn't entirely my fault. And I've made amends for it. So I have forgiven her for the monetary problems. I have told her repeatedly that the money means nothing compared to out marriage. She just hasn't forgiven me for the separation. To me it's all in the past, and we can work through these issues. To her these problems keep reoccurring in her mind. I need to get her to counseling...

Did you initially want the separation? I am just wondering because if she is the one who wanted it - why would she need to forgive you?
Money is money - it does cause issues in a marriage - but you are right - it is more about trust and honesty.
She definitely needs counseling - to teach her how to let go of things. What good comes from beating a dead horse?
Like I said before, just keep on your path. You are not wrong to want to work this out. You are part of this marriage and you have a say. If you want this - don't just roll over. Do what you can to make it work.

I need to get her to counseling... ... and a doctor.

I am confused... why is she mad about the separation... I thought she wanted it. And you know what? You are allowed to make mistakes, and you deserve to be fogiven. One thing about healthy relationships is that keeping score is never good... and it sounds like she is good at bringing up the past and keeping score. That will ruin what you are working on. She really needs to go to counseling as well...
And please don't minimize the problems... the 3 biggest things that ruin marriages are 1. money, 2. communication, and 3 sex. Right now, it doesn't sound like you have a handle on any of them. So don't minimize... you have a long road ahead of you... each issue needs to be dealt with 100% in order for it to work, not just bandaid it so it looks better.
I think you are doing the right thing... but she needs to make the same effort. That is my concern.

The bottom line is that you have to work towards what you want.. but not to the extent where it consumes your life. If, after two counseling sessions, your wife doesn't offer her willingness to talk with you... I would nicely tell her that the two of you need to talk. She will HAVE to want to go to counseling with you. You agreed to go to the first two sessions alone.. but when that third one comes around, she should be right there with you. Otherwise, it's not going to work and you'll be trying to reconcile completely on your own. It's a two way street. You had admitted that she has made errors in the marriage, and, so have you. Well, then she needs to get counseling, too.. just as you are. You are trying so hard.. I really dislike that she sees YOU going, and, in the meanwhile, she is sitting back. She needs to get on the bandwagon soon if this is going to work. Long story short here, familyman2, after this next counseling.. call and tell her that you'll be at her home at _ _ _ (session time) to pick her up for counseling with you. If she is still reluctant, she may be showing signs that she doesn't want to reconcile. Also, I agree with whoever said, "slow and easy", but only in getting back together. As far as counseling together.. that needs to happen sooner than later. Otherwise, it's not going to work for her. Good luck, familyman2.

It's a tight rope for sure. I do feel like giving her an ultimatum after the next session. But is this advisable? Do I say "if you really want me out of your life then go down to the courthouse and file asap, but if you have any doubts then you need to come to counseling immediately". Or something like that?

Talaniman what do you mean by she needs to see a doctor? A shrink? She does see a doctor for her ADD.

As far as the separation, it was just an ugly time. We were all falling apart. We knew we wanted to stay married, but something had to give, and she took her kids out of the situation. We should have gotten family counseling then, instead of walking away from the problem. So whether she wanted to leave or not, is not the issue. The issue is that she blames me for creating the mess, and for her starting anew with her mother and sister.
I have repeatedly taken responsibility for my part of the problem, and have made amends. She probably will never admit causing any of the trouble, so will never have to apologize for it. In her mind it was all me. I just pray that she'll come to counseling and be able to "get real". Right or wrong, when she makes up her mind, it is right to her.

I know I am portraying her in a bit of a bad light. She definitely does have problems. My mother, who is a great judge of character, thinks my wife is pathological and needs years of help. But, the fact remains that I married her for better or for worse. I'm not going to dump her for her problems. I'd like to help her through them. On the other side of the coin, she is a wonderful mother. She's beautiful to me, intelligent, fun, and interesting. If she wants to dump me because she thinks the problems are mine, that's her decision.

Finally, I know I am running on here. But I thought I would throw one more tidbit in to ponder since I've already opened my soul: I'm not the perfect guy either. I suffer from a chemical imbalance that causes bipolar depression. Even with medication, I can get down and tune out every blue moon. It's possible my wife doesn't want to deal with this, and I couldn't blame her. Maybe she's using these other excuses to hide the truth. Again, 95% of the time I'm fine. But I think she'll interpret these down times as me just being boring, or not loving her enough. I don't know...

Sorry friends. I got a little carried away this time:)

Well I feel for your situation. She does need to "get real" it takes two to make or break a marriage. Last time I checked no one is perfect so she couldn't possibly be. I am sure there are things she should apologize for. It's wonderful that you still see so much from a positive perspective in her, that speaks a lot about who you are and the love that you are capable of. Since the counseling is so fresh I wouldn't give her any ultimatum (just yet). Just my opinion. But I sure wouldn't wait for very long, maybe a month of sessions or so but that's about it before I required her participation.

As you say you married her for better or worse and so did she. So whether you have BPD or not she should stand by you as you are standing by her. I wouldn't give her any "I wouldn't blame her" excuses on that. You are trying to manage your condition so she should support you in every way.

Talaniman what do you mean by she needs to see a doctor? A shrink? She does see a doctor for her ADD.

Sorry wasn't sure if that was a fact or not since it wasn't posted and I didn't want to assume.

The issue is that she blames me for creating the mess,

She probably will never admit causing any of the trouble,

This worries me, as it is hard to reconcill unless you both see the part you play. Not good when one partner accepts blame, when they don't deserve it. Not healthy when one partner blames the other and thinks they are innocent, that will get old after a while.

I commend you for being so open about your personal issues, it really helps. I know even on medication, BPD can have some outward effects... and the great thing is that you are aware, you don't deny, and you are willing to accept people for who they are...

The problem here is... you are assuming what "she might be thinking." That is not okay... she needs to communicate with you... exactly what is on her mind, what she needs from you, what she loves about you, what she is asking you to do... etc. This isn't a guessing game, that is NOT fair to you to wonder... it will eventually create resentment and self-worth issues... especially with the BPD because that is not your fault and it is not something that you can totally change... What I mean by that is when we constantly try to find the things wrong with us and try to change everything, that is not healthy. What IS healthy is for her to tell you what she loves, what she is willing to accept, and what she is asking you to address in your marriage. That IS fair...
So I hoping that she is able to tell you that in a very honest, mature, and realistic way... not when things are in turmoil.
Again, you may not have asked for these thoughts of mine, but I guess your openness has allowed me to feel like I want to defend you and protect in some sort of friend way! :)
Keep talking!

There's the "seed in the misfortune". If it wasn't for this devastating event in my life, I would not have gained the invaluable insight of the wonderful people here. Every one of you who is helping me here is appreciated more than I can express in words. Don't feel like I am not asking you for your opinions--I am--all of them. I need you in my corner here, to help me take the baby steps back to my marriage. Or to help me pick up the pieces if necessary. Type away, I am listening. You are taking a huge roll in an attempt to save a family. What could be more noble than that? THANK YOU.

Back to the saga. I have a bit of a rhetorical question: My wife has her own career, making decent money. She can spend it anyway she pleases. She has plenty of kids to keep her occupied. She has the support of her immediate family living with her. And, she has her married male friend from her bowling league to keep her amused (I'm guessing it is a comfortable friendship to her because there are no expectations). So, in light of this, what would she need me for? And if she doesn't need me, why would she want me?
I'm not trying to be negative, I'm trying to make sense of it. How do I express to her that I do belong in her life, and she belongs in mine?

How do I express to her that I do belong in her life, and she belongs in mine?
She knows what you want , but does she know what she wants? If she wants to continue with you is her choice and hers alone.

So, in light of this, what would she need me for? And if she doesn't need me, why would she want me?

I think this is the question she is trying to answer for herself.

Could it be she doesn't see you as a friend but as an adversary? Hence her rebellion and need to spare her kids the conflicts you and her may have? It is getting pretty obvious the communications have broken down. Maybe a good point to bring up with your therapist.

No one NEEDS anyone, if she wants you a part of her life, then she needs to allow that to happen again. It is taking the risk and allowing someone in your life and being vulnerable. I agree with Tal, that is the struggle she sounds like she is having... not really about you personally, but inside herself. Again, you can't read her mind or her internal thoughts, so let that be hers, just encourage her to seek help in that decision Or give her time. Not indefinitaly, but a timeframe you are comfortable with. She knows you will be there for her, so show her you are doing for yourself... and maybe she will feel left behind or left out. :) Sometimes in order to make a decision that is hard, there has to be a good reason to make it and not sit in limbo! I don't know, just a thought to think about.

Communication is very important. I wouldn't give your wife an "ultimatum", but I would nicely suggest to her that you'd like to share what the therapist has been saying and how good you are feeling about it. I don't think it's a good idea to let too much time between conversations go by. Even if the two of you just go for coffee or a snack together.. just stay in touch. You had wondered why she'd want to have you in her life when she has a support system with her mother, sister, married best male friend, etc. Well, she is having many of her needs met by these people, so she's not feeling isolated, alone, or depressed. She needs to see that you are still the loving husband.. waiting for her to come home... and as I suggested, you need to keep your presence noticeable.

Has she contacted you at all during this time of separation, or are you the one having to contact her? If it is always you reaching out, you're going to get worn out emotionally. I sincerely hope she begins attending therapy with you after the 3rd or 4th session... and I hope she offers on her own.

Are you taking medication for your BPD? Are you staying with them and not missing? As you know, that is the only way everything about you will remain consistent. Perhaps that will help too if she notices that you are not wavering in your demeanor and seriouness of wanting to get back together. And, if she is on meds for her ADD, then she knows the importance, too.

You are being so good to her and her mom/sister... I hope she is not taking advantage of you. Not very many men would offer to expand their home, build a new home, offer to have the mom/sister to move in, etc. One day she'll come to a realization of what type of man she has in you and she'll be sorry for the time she had lost.

Continue to keep us updated. I'd like to hear if she calls you, especially since you had sent her a Mother's Day gift through your daughter.

Best wishes...

Sorry I have more questions, have you ever cheated, or physically, mentally, or verbally abused your wife? I know, but have to ask. What region or country do you reside and the ethnicity are you and your wife, and your ages, I already know you've been married 12 yrs, and finally what religion are you?

Talaniman-I have been completely faithful and have never rasied my hand to her or the kids. We have had some heated arguments in the past where we both said abusive things to each other. Definitely nothing to be proud of.

I am 42 and my wife is 37. We live in West Virginia, just over the Western Maryland line.
We are Caucasian and are spiritual. We don't belong to a formalized religeon.

What thoughts do you conclude from this information?

Delilah- She has not given me much to go on, but indifference. She does call, but mainly to schedule kid pick-ups. I think in the last four weeks she's called two or three times for small talk. I am trying to keep positive, however. She has stated that she'll come to counseling, and she has not said anything at all about divorce. So, I'm just going to hang in there for now. My counselor is great, and I think she can help us; or at least me.

To nudge my wife along a bit I did write her another note of encouragement. I guess I'll bear my soul again and write some of it here. Let me know if this was OK:

"I have such deep feelings for you and a strong belief that we can still have a great marriage. It would be difficult and painful for me if we end our marriage without giving counseling our very best efforts. I know you said you would go, and I am grateful you accepted. I also realise that you do not have to go. I will never do anything more than ask you to join me. What I am hoping is that you will give it all you've got, and treat it with great importance. Come into it with high expectations and plan for stellar results."

"It would be a shame to throw away the investment of time and energy we've put into our marriage. Let's give this counseling and our relationship everything it deserves. And whatever you decide to do after we've completed counseling, I will support. If you decide to stay, obviously I will be very happy. If you decide you must go, I will not stand in your way."

Corny? Anyway, I gave this to her last night when we exchanged the kids. She called this evening, again to discuss kids scheduling, but didn't mention the note. But I know how my wife communicates often. She normally doesn't call about schedules until the end of the week. I think her call tonight was to say it's OK, in her indirect way. She'll make the effort.
I could be wrong. But that's the vibe I got.

Thanks all...

I think your note/letter to your wife was very well-worded and sweet. I had to bite my tongue, though, while reading it as you put the whole problem on your shoulders. I'm sure it was well received by your wife since you didn't put any blame on anyone, but you did thank her for agreeing to go to counseling with you and that you wouldn't pressurize her to stay with you in the end.. if she so desired it to go that way. I know you are 'playing it safe' by not trying to antagonize or pressurize her. I can only hope, though, that the counselor will show that marriage is a two-way street and that everyday will not be smiles and pleasantries. In even the best of marriages, there are ups and downs.. or some days more carefree than others. I hope your wife will go into the counseling (and hopefully your life together) understanding that you will not always be the fall guy taking the blame for everything, including issues that she starts. You would have one long, unhappy life if that happened. I wish she would not drop subtle hints that things seem okay by calling a few days early regarding the children's schedules. You shouldn't have to be reading into everything and hoping. She should be straightforward during these times... at least letting you know that she's hopeful, or looking forward to her first visit to the counselor.. or, ask how you are doing. <heavy sigh> You are looking for any little clue and that's not fair to you. However, I know your hopes are that you get back together.. so for now, it's OK. I am looking forward to the day she goes to her first session with you.

Again, your letter was very loving and sweet. Truly! I have to believe that your letter... worded in the way you had worded it.. moved her. I SO hope so. I am keeping positive thoughts for you, familyman2. You seem like a fine person. Please continue to keep us updated.

I woke up this morning feeling about the worst I have since this whole thing began. And the funny thing is that after the fog cleared sometime this afternoon I began to have some clarity in my mind;and some real anger.

Here I've been doing everything under the sun trying to keep my family together, and my marriage in tact. I have given my wife 12 years of my life and now she can't give me 10 minutes to talk about things. I am suffering and grieving, and she is running around with her bowling buddies like I don't even exist. She just doesn't seem to be appreciating any of my efforts. Furthermore, I have been taking the hit for all of our problems, even though the majority have stemmed from her emotional issues, and her irresponsibility with money. I won't say I've been perfect, but I have taken responsibility and apologized for my mistakes. And now here I am arranging and paying for counseling sessions that she hasn't even attended yet (She said she would go, but she does have a serious honesty problem to boot).

So, do I give it one more week? Do I just cut and run now? Do I hang in there a little longer? I mean the only way I can talk to her is by handing her notes. This is borderline insanity. I won't deny that I still wish to stay with her and help her, and us. And I agonize constantly about having to shuffle the kids back and forth. But I can allow myself to be a foolish doormat for only so long. I am beginning to feel resentment. In a way I just feel like going to her and give it to her straight. Another part of me wants to hang in there.
I am torn. Should I just wait it out a bit until the anger subsides? I think I'll sleep on it.

Well, the grieving process goes something like this... Denial, Anger, bargaining, depression, then acceptance. Keep going to counseling for you... you can express to her your feelings, but do not react to them... GO TO COUNSELING AND TALK TO YOUR COUNSELOR ABOUT IT and come up with a plan. You are going to go through many emotions, and your counseling is a support for oyu right now.

I think I'll sleep on it.
For now a wise decision. Talk to your counselor about what you feel.

I think you need to give it more time before you give up completely. You've been married 12 years. Giving up after such a short time of informal separation would be foolish. But, I personally feel.. and this is only my opinion.. is that you should try to get your wife to take some time and talk. Being apart while you are still married.. hoping something will just 'happen' without talking with one another doesn't make any sense. You have to be able to try to work out your difficulties with or without a counselor. Since you have a professional counselor, it would be wise for your wife to join you. After all, the problems in your marriage are not all one-sided, as you had told us. She has issues, too. I don't understand why she spends time with her friends and family while you are out trying to get your family back together? What about your kids? Why are they allowed to stay with her during this time of trial separation? I think you need to call her and tell her that you both need to talk.. and you both need to see the counselor. It has been awhile now. You've given her some down time. Stay calm. Tell her how many days it has been since she left. Talk time with or without the counselor. Good luck, familyman2. Keep posting here and let us know how it's going.

I have given this much thought, and given what you've written, leave the wife alone, and put all your love and focus on the kids. Be nice, but leave her alone, and only discuss the well being of the children with her. She needs to take responsibility for this relationship, as do you and she hasn't raised a finger, not fair, as it takes two, and you can't make a relationship work by yourself. I know your trying, but she isn't, so focus on what you can have a say over, your kids. Sorry that's how it looks from here. The relationship with your kids is top priority.

Don't be sorry Talaniman. What you say makes lots of sense. The heart-felt letters, the little gifts, the "thinking of you" phone calls are being discarded with no responses at all.
If they are working, she is showing no signs of it outwardly. I can't just keep doing the same thing that doesn't work. I think I will just give her some space for a while, and continue to focus on the kids. If she is to come to counseling, or to open up with me it'll be on her own notion. For my own sanity I need to detach for a while. She knows how I feel now, and my intentions. What more do I really need to do? I won't give up the idea of reconciliation, but giving her space may be the only way for her to realize what she might lose. Besides, I need to use my energy for regaining some confidence and esteem, and for preparing to move on if necessary.

I will say that this whole thing has been surreal in a way. The woman I love and am committed to is essentially gone. It is very difficult to believe. My best friend for 12 years now won't even make an effort to save the friendship. And she replaced me, seemingly so easily. It is painful and infuriating at the same time, which is why I am so torn between leaving her alone, and attempting to continue. Nothing worth while is ever easy I suppose.

It just doesn't make sense to me.

I don't like seeing people give up on one another, yet I can certainly understand when it feels so one-sided that you become so depressed. I remember a relationship years ago (not married) when I had tried hard to keep it together to no avail. Essentially, the other half (fiance) waited pretty much for me to get tired of trying and then we drifted apart. Perhaps this is what your wife is trying to have happen. Being blasé about your relationship and just letting you wear yourself down and give up. Sometimes the differences in a relationship are just too much for one to handle. As you had mentioned, perhaps she'll see what she is missing when you stop trying to appease her. Focusing on the children only right now is a good idea. I still can't get past why SHE has the kids all of the time and not you? Are you both having equal time with them, or are they with her more of the time? I also wish, for the sake of having her want to really miss you, that she didn't have a constant support group with her at all times. You sound so level-headed and have your priorities in order.. it's a shame that she is putting you through this. Keep up your counseling just to keep your wits about you, if for no other reason. You had told your wife about counseling a few times.. she said she would go with you.. now it's up to her to keep her word. If she doesn't, familyman2, then don't push. You don't want to always be the one who has to coerce her into a good marriage.. to understand you.. to be a good wife. It takes two.. no doubt about it. You deserve your happiness.. you are still young. Life is too short to have to struggle like this with a person who doesn't have her heart in it. I pray she comes to her senses very soon and realize what a loving husband she has in you. As always, best wishes, familyman2. Please continue to post her so we see how things are going for you.. and to give you some support, too!

I'm glad you see the logic of my post. You are connected to her through your children for years, and must be civil enough to raise them with as much love and stability as possible. Not only can you stop the dog and pony show, you can get your own house in order, with out her screwing the finances up. Keep us posted as I feel you will land on your feet, and find the happiness your looking for.

Thank you Delilah. Your constant support has been priceless to me throughout this difficult period. And just so you know, I don't plan on giving up. I am changing my strategy. I will leave it up to her to figure out what she is walking away from. In the meantime, like Taliniman recommended, I will focus on myself and my kids, who deserve all the love I can give them. Incidentally, we share the custody of the kids. It's 50/50. This is one thing we do agree on.

I am so glad you understand that a change in strategy is not giving up.

Thank you for the 'thanks', familyman2. It warms my heart to have someone thank me for my support. :o I'm hoping that your wife will sit and think one day soon, "Hmmm, I wonder what he's up to .. why hasn't he called or sent a note?" Her friends are keeping her mind occupied now and she doesn't have time to think about what she is missing. She may feel that she knows you so well that she thinks you'll always be there, waiting for her to return. Your stategy of holding back is a good one. I'm hoping that you have a group of friends you can lean on, too. You have all of us here, too, for support. ;)

Well sometimes the unexpected happens: I had asked my wife to look at a school I want to get my daughter into. Before I could even start on the information she began talking about things on her mind. She talked about all my problems naturally. How I would get angry and then turn cold (untrue), how I didn't leave the house instead of her (we all know why), how I would do nice things for her just to make her happy instead of doing them because I wanted to (?) etc... I mean lots of ranting. I just bit my lip and said "I'm sorry you feel that way". Then I said it takes two and that she has done many unfair things as well. But to me they aren't as important as the big picture. I said we all make mistakes and that you have to cut people some slack for being human. I also told her that we still can have a great marriage with many good years. She would need to come to counseling immediately so we can work through these issues, and learn to communicate better. She has agreed to come.

Small steps, can mean big changes.

This is great news, familyman2! It's a start and hopefully it will escalate to the point of bringing you two back together! I'm glad you stayed calm and that you gave the PERFECT response. I truly hope she sees the counselor with you. Is Friday the next appointment? This is great news and I'm keeping positive thoughts for you. Keep us posted, as you have been.

Thanks y'all. I am going to remain cautiously optimistic. Our appt. isn't until a week from this coming Friday. She'll be away this Friday. I will still go, however. I'm just wondering in the interim if I should hang back and leave her alone, or should I give her a "what's up" call now and then, or send her a card or something meaningful. What would a woman really appreciate in this situation?

Give her a single rose, and take the kids for the weekend. Have big fun and they'll tell mom what a great time they had. Females love happy kids. Ask me how I know! ( you'll love yourself for it too. Tell me a fun distraction wouldn't be good right now)

Tal's advice is good. A single rose (yellow is for friendship) is a great idea.. maybe with a nice, light-hearted card attached. Don't forget this is Memorial Day weekend coming up.. so taking the kids would mean a long weekend with them. Is your wife going away for the long weekend with friends? Call her one day next week with a reminder of the counselor appointment. I think you'll get a good idea about how serious she is about a reconciliation immediately after the counseling session with her. Always best wishes.. and keep us posted, as you have been, familyman2.

Hi all. Just checking in with a little question/concern. All is set for our counseling session on Friday, and we have been getting along fine during the brief moments we see each other (trading the kids). But, something has been bothering me a bit: my daughter inadvertently said, "mommy's friend Jeff comes over to the house alot". I've asked my wife about this guy over a year ago and she said he was just a friend from her bowling league, and that he was married. Recently, I asked her again about being involved with anyone and she completely denied it. This was when I decided to save our marriage. So now she knows I am "all in" about reconciliation, and she IS coming to counseling, which brings me to ask:
Should I bring this issue up with my wife before, during, or after counseling? Should I pay this no mind and believe her platonic relationship with this guy? I'm trying to figure out how to handle this, what my mindset should be, and what I should say (if anything) to my wife.

I know we all have known about this guy, and I have previously felt no threat by him. But, how is she supposed to think about our marriage when she has this guy filling the gap?

You cannot let assumptions take over your thinking, nor let them cloud your judgement. Stay focused on the counseling, and your relationship with your children. The rest you have to take with a grain of salt and just wait and see what the true facts are that will come to light. Don't get worked up over every little thing you hear.

I think you should bring it up in counseling! Not about Jeff, or anyone specific... but you can say your daughter has made comments about male friends and want to clear the slate and hear it from her, since you want to have open communication from her and not hear things through the kids. You want her to be honest about anyone she is or has been seeing. Counselors are trained!! And if the counselor feels there is dishonesty, they should be confronting that... so let the counselor do the work for now... you just keep being honest. If you do not bring it up, it is called having a "hidden agenda" and it will keep your relationship unhealthy and dishonest. Lingering thoughts are not healthy, they need to be squashed and move on.

Great! Thank you both for keep ing me focused. It's what I needed.

I agree with YeloDasy... I would bring up.. nonchalantly.. in counseling, that your daughter has mentioned that another man has been visiting 'mommy' frequently. I would say you were bringing it up during counseling because obviously your daughter has been noticing it enough to tell you and you're wondering if this will signal to the child that there is more a problem between 'mom and dad. (Your daughter already knows there is at least one problem since you're living apart). And, since you are working towards a reconciliation, you'd like to know if someone else is in the picture. YeloDasy is right.. there shouldn't be any hidden agendas, especially when you are both going for marriage counseling. Important information should be out in the open so that the counselor can help you both. If you don't bring it up, it will be nagging at you. True, you can take some things with a 'grain of salt', but with something like this.. and especially since your child noticed enough to mention it... I would bring it up. Your counselor is there to help decipher such things for you and your wife. Good luck, familyman2.

She's screwing somebody else and afraid to admit that to you. Start cutting your losses.

Just to be clear, wait until she is actually in counseling before even considering anything else. The focus stays on the kids.

I agree, talaniman. Counseling will expose if she is serious about being hopeful or not. Unquestionably, the children should always be the main focus. Good advice, tal.

OK, in typical Familyman form I have written an opening statement for our counseling session tomorrow. This is meant to break the ice and to develop a course theme. Hopefully this will also set the tone for mature discussions and it will get all of the cards on the table.

So, please review and respond with thoughts. I am open to edits, additions, etc:


"It will be great if our ultimate goal is to create a strong marriage; One in which we can be proud, content, and blissfully in love.

Obviously, in order to get there we need to dedicate ourselves to rebuilding the foundation with friendship, compassion, understanding, forgiveness, and proper communication.

This begins here with a commitment to being open and honest about how we feel about issues that have troubled us, but we should also discuss the many positive things that we have accomplished together, and never lose sight of them.

I think if we can do this with empathetic ears, and focus on expressing feelings rather than attacks and blame, we can make positive tracks towards our goal.

I for one am totally open to everything you have to say. I want to know how you feel, and how you think, and how I can do things better; because I want to be better. I want to be the best husband possible to make sure that you have a good life, and that you are always taken care of.

At the same time, it is my wish that you will be open minded and willing to listen to how I feel about the issues. Perhaps you will find things that, done differently, can bring us closer together. And will also provide you with self pride and contentment.

Let's be ready to do the work. Let's be patient and do it right this time. A strong effort, and lots of faith in each other, will reward us with the kind of marriage we both have wanted for many years. We can be best friends, best lovers, with the greatest life and family we could ever ask for. We can be very, very happy. It's right here in front of us.

So let's relax, roll up our sleeves, take a deep breath, and begin step one in our journey home..."

I will probably read this out loud after we have sat down and gone through the pleasantrys. Maybe there would be a better time to read this?

Outside of this, I am feeling very good about our chances of making it. There are definitely many obstacles that can trip us up and close the whole deal. But I know we can have the best chance if you all will pray a little extra with me, and we'll put the rest in God's hands.

Kind regards

I think your 'opening' letter is extremely well-worded, familyman. You obviously took time to find the right words, putting blame on no one in particular. I think the letter should be read out loud at the very beginning of the session. You're right, it sounds like a very good ice breaker and sets the mood for what you have on your mind. You're upfront and open.. no hidden agendas. I pray that your wife comes with an open-mind and is ready to work towards getting back together as a family again. You have my prayers and best wishes. Please let us know how the session fared out for you, familyman2.

Take care... having positive thoughts for you.

I read the letter at the outset and the therapist commented favorably. Then she asked my wife if it moved her and she responded somewhat ambivalently. The main core of the session was of my wife blaming me for things in the past. She really came across as the martyr and took no responsibility for any past problems. She also said that I have personality issues that I am not even aware of, and that I need counseling to work them out. She just can't fathom how I can tell her I love her and then be so hurtful the next minute. I bit my tongue hard! The counselor suggested we spend at least one evening a week talking on the phone for ten minutes, or getting together for a quick coffee, but my wife said she "just isn't there yet". She has agreed to come back for more counseling, however.
I have begun to think I am dealing with a sociopath. I am so confused. She has me thinking I am some damaged personality unworthy of her, due to being so cold and hurtful.
I thought I was being a loving husband all this time. What was I thinking?
Now I feel like my whole marriage has been a rouse for her twisted benefit. Now that she has no need for me why bother? But still I am having a difficult time . I have such strong beliefs that you don't abandon family. I would die for them, including my wife. But she doesn't seem to have any empathy for me. I want to help her so much, but I don't know how, or if there is even a way. I pray that she would open up her heart to me and see what kind of pain this is causing. Maybe if we stick to the counseling we can eventually work it all out.
I knew the first session would be rough, but the realization that my wife might be mentally ill has me grieving unbearably. The sane advice would be to cut and run. But this goes so deeply against my belief system that I can't even consider it right now. Maybe I am overreacting. This was just the first session, and I need to remain calm, patient, and objective.

I feel you, its tough and will get tougher, hang in and take heart. Your doing the right thing for you both.

You did not get here overnight - so the solution will not come overnight either. I know you wanted so badly for this session to be the magic cure for your problems. That a light bulb would go off in your wife's head and she would look at you and realize she can't live with out you. But, the reality is - this is going to take time. I know it is easy to sit here and say to remain calm and patient. That is what you have to do now. Try to implament the plan your therapist has given you - even if your wife doesn't seem open to it. If she has agreed to contiune to go to counseling - then you both need to do what the therapist is recommending.
If you call her and she isn't willing to talk or if you ask her out for coffee and she isn't open to that - at least you tried.
She has stated that you have issues you need to work on - tell her that you can not do that alone and you need HER help.
Good Luck

familyman2, I feel there is still hope since your wife made the decision to go to counseling. Perhaps she used this first session to cover her insecurities and guilt by putting the burden on you. Perhaps she wanted the therapist to see you as not the 'good guy', since she (wife) missed out on the first couple of sessions that you had alone. I can't believe that she actually thinks that she has no part in the separation! She couldn't possibly think that she has been the martyr the entire time. She obviously is in a lot of denial and hopefully the counselor is trained well enough to get through to her. It's a two way street.. always a two way street. Even in the most loving marriages.. ones where communication flows... there are times where one or the other partner could have said or done something better. Hang tight, familyman2... I'm 'thinking' that your wife came armed to her first session wanting the therapist to see her as the perfect spouse and had wanted to vent. Once the therapist gets into things, your wife should be able to begin to sort things out... hopefully. I had always thought from beginning that the two of you need to stay in touch by sort calls or going for coffee. It gives you two time with one another to talk as friends.. light conversation, not heavy.
Always keeping strong, positive thoughts for you, familyman. Keep us updated and stay positive!

The fact that your wirfe FINALLY made it to therapy really says a lot. It is my opinion that she was digging in her heels about going because it was your idea in the first place to go to therapy. Strong personalities do not like being told what to do. Also, the fact that you opened the session with a touching letter that the therapist applauded you on most likely also added to her defensiveness. It is human nature, but also immaturity, that makes people feel the need to blame others and not take responsibility. I also agree that it is too early to throw in the towel as of yet. You know the saying, "It has to get worse before it gets better." You need to flush out the bad to make way for the good. I really hope that it works out for you. You are truly a remarkable man and I only wish that other people would be as patient and understanding as you have been. If after all of your work your marriage is not saved, then at least you can walk away with the knowledge that you tried everything that was humanly possible to save it. Also, you are a much better person having gone through therapy. Good luck to you and your family. To all of the men out there who are reading this post, take note of this guy. This is how it should be done!!

Wow mom of 2! Thank you very much for that post. Your encouraging words mean a great deal to me.

As an update: there really hasn't been any action other than exchanging the kids here and there. My wife hasn't made any attempt at small talk, and I have just been laying back and giving her space. It feels like, with this space, she is drifting farther away. Maybe it's just me, but I still think she is getting her emotional fix from this other guy, so why should she spend any time thinking about me and us. And it's difficult for me to try any attempt at contact because I'll feel like I am just getting in her way. I'm not sure if there is much I can do for now. So it's just a weird time. I will ask her to attend another therapy session next week, and get her temperature then.

Until then, I'll cope and take it a day at a time.

At this point that's all you can do. Get some fresh air in your lungs and go golfing or fishing with friends. It will do you good.

Please don't take this post to mean that I am giving you advice to give up totally on the possibility of reconciling. What I am suggesting is a change in strategy, as doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is the actual definition of insanity. I can't help but think that your wife is determined not to allow ANYTHING to work as long as she thinks that you are calling the shots.

With that in mind, start focusing on yourself and your children. STOP talking to her about the possibility of reconciling. Make her wonder why you are doing this and are not asking her to attend therapy. Make her wonder about a lot of things. It is almost like dealing with a child. The more that you ask a child to do something, the less likely that they will do what you want them to do. If the other person thinks that you have given up, then they may (or may not) have a change of heart. Allow her to sort of feel a little bit of rejection herself. Is this a gamble? Yes, but then again, everything that you have tried so far really has not worked and it sounds as though she is moving farther and farther away with all of your efforts so far.

Again, only you can determine what you should do. I wish you all the luck in the world. The ball is in her court. Make her start to really miss the relationship. I don't think that she really has been able to miss it because you have always been doing the pursuing. You have a lot to think about. I also think that you have to do a lot of soul searching and determine if this relationship is really worth saving. A relationship takes a lot of work on both sides and it should NEVER be one sided.

Familyman, didn't your wife go to last Friday's counseling with you? I know you said she had gone to the first one two weeks ago. Why did she skip one already? And, she'll be missing tomorrow's, too? It has to be consistent to work or make any sense. MomOf2 makes sense in her post... let her come to you now and wonder why you are not pursuing. It may make her wonder why you are not persisiting as you had before (oh, these games we play... ), or, unfortunately she may sigh a sigh of relief and think you are giving up. Either way, the ball IS in her court now... she will have to begin to start talking to you or ask what's up. These things take awhile, but please remember that you want to have a life and you're hoping it's with your wife. If she doesn't begin making some positive moves, then you have to decide how long you want to keep hoping she'll see the light. Good luck, as always... keep us posted!

Delilah, my wife did attend the first session, and basically justified herself by blaming me.
My counselor made the mistake of only "inviting" my wife back, instead of highly recommending that she return weekly for a while. The tentative plans were to get together again next week. I did speak up and asked if we could keep it weekly while the ball had begun rolling. I felt too much time in between sessions would break any kind of momentum. But the counselor sided with my wife on this one. Oh well! I am not sure if my wife still plans to come anymore. I will ask her if she plans to attend next week, and we'll see.

This is crazy. I miss my wife tremendously, but I am so angry with her for behaving this way. How someone could just walk away from a marriage without dealing with it, and begin a new relationship with someone else is beyond my comprehension. It is hurtful and borderline sadistic. I couldn't be this cruel to my worst enemy (if I had one). And the fact that she is hanging out with this guy in front of my kids is equally devastating. It leaves me to question if I really want to be with someone who could hurt me so deeply without showing any empathy. Unfortunately she is not considering the future or the consequences of her actions. She is living for today, which is OK but only to a limit. She cannot see that she is giving up a solid marriage to a loving husband, and a chance at seeing her kids on a daily basis. It's a lot to trade in for some good-time guy from the bowling alley. It's a lot to give up just because she has not been willing to get to work.
I really wish she could truly understand how her immature and irresponsible ways have broken my heart, and will possibly do life-long damage to our family. Maybe she'll wake up before it's too late. I really hope so, only time will tell.

In the meantime, you'll be happy to know that I am not pining in my room for her. I am taking steps to rebuild my life, with or without her. I have planned to move closer to the city where there is a better social scene, more work for me, and a great school for my kids. I feel like I have lead shoes and an empty soul, but moving forward is the only way I can survive this low point in my life.

Anyway, this has been my therapy for today. Thanks for listening...

Keep your head up, my friend. You will get through this. And be stronger for it.

Your anger is understandable and its about time, you have every reason to be mad. As frustrating as it is moving forward for your kids, is an excellent plan, just keep them as your most important priority, and let everything else fall in place where they may. You may not agree with this therapist, but let her handle it. Just keep going, and know it will work out. Stay strong and positive.

familyman2, I'm glad you're not "pining" in your room for your wife and have considered moving to a more social area. Stay with the therapist and see what she considers for you and your wife. If your wife doesn't attend anymore sessions, then obviously I can't see how it would help her.

You know, when someone is seeing someone else.. it's the "the grass is always greener on the side" story. The 'other' person treats the spouse differently.. over the top, lots of compliments, no cares, lots of laughter. But, also know that the other person doesn't have the children to consider, any of the relationship building that goes on between a husband and wife, none of the respect that grows between a couple, etc. etc. He can go home without any of the responsibility. Such 'affairs' seem short lived. Soon enough, reality sets in.

I continue to hope that the 'other' guy moves on to someone else and your wife sees how superficial that type of relationship is. I know it has to be hard on you and the children to watch this happen. Hopefully your wife will go to more sessions with you and more will become of the visits. It is the consistency that helps relationships grow.

Good luck and continue to keep us posted, familyman2.

My daughter sat at the dinner table this evening and in a saddened tone said "daddy, why does Jeff always come over to mommy's house and you don't. He gives her a lot of hugs".

Naturally I was outraged. I haven't said anything to my wife. I think I'll go straight to a lawyer. I have been walking through hell trying to keep my family together, trying to make it so my wife can see her kids everyday, as well as I. And my wife has been having the time of her life while putting no effort into our marriage (no effort even into a friendship for that matter). Why should I suffer even more by giving up my children half the time? I think in this situation I should be able to attempt full custody. Again, if I had my choice I would continue the marriage and counseling. But I can't do it alone.

Furthermore, last Friday as the time approached for us to meet for our counseling session, she called with ten minutes to spare to say she would be running late due to a conference call. She never made it. I even got the counselor to give us a later time, and my wife never returned my call. I left a message on my wife's machine saying how upset I am that I have become the lowest priority in her life. Again, no reply. Today when we exhanged the kids she acted like it never happened; business as usual. This is how she deals with everything--she doesn't. She treats me with no respect or dignity. It's like we never were married, never had a relationship. It is crushing and infuriating.

So I am very upset. I don't know whether to give her one more chance to come to counseling or to proceed with the divorce. I hate to end it, but I can only take so much.

Maybe I need to calm down before I make a decision.

In the meantime, if I do divorce, what are my chances at custody? Are there any strategies that will give me an edge?

To be honest, I would be willing to compromise with shared custody if she allows me to be in charge of the kid's education. I'd like to put them in a great school across from our new home. I can be there for them 24/7. I will let my wife have them on weekends and alternate holidays, and also she can have them 4 to 5 days a week during the summer.
I think this is a fair deal considering evrything that has happened.

In summary, I wish to continue working on the marriage, ONLY if she does an about face.
If not I will file for full custody, and settle down to the shared option if necessary.

I need to plan the sequences carefully, and I need to figure out what to tell my wife, or not tell her. I need to figure out what to say and when to say it.

My friends, you have been with me for a lone ride. How it will turn out I don't know. But I am sure glad you all took this ride with me. I am a better person because of your priceless support, generosity, and sage-like insight.

Thank you!

Family man, I think that you have given and given and given and there is no more to give.

You have tried to talk to your wife and it is very apparent, both through her actions (or inactions) her words (or lies) that she does not want to work on this marriage. Save your time and don't waste your money on something that won't work. Go to a lawyer and start the process.

As far as custody, you need to consult with an attorney on this. Keep in mind that you need to think about the best interests of the children and not what is best for you. You are angry and you have every right to be, but DO NOT let that be the main reason that you are fighting for custody. If their mother is neglectful or abusive towards them, then there is a reason to "fight for sole custody". Otherwise, what is in the childrens' best interests is for both parents to be involved in their lives, which would mean joint legal custody. The term that needs to be part of your vocabulary is co-parenting. Remember, when there is a custody fight, the big ones to lose are the children and the big ones to win are the lawyers, who will most likely walk away with all of your money once the fight is done. Most likely, in order to pay for this fight, you will need to sell the house that is across the way from the school, which you talked about being your advantage. You say that you "will give her" shared custody, you need to come to terms with the fact that this is not yours "to give", as it is negotiation between the two of you. In the same way, she can not give you anything either.

I know that I may be harsh in saying all of tis and that this may not be what you want to hear, but I have seen far too many children suffer because of these kinds of custody fights. Just because the parents cannot live together does not mean that the children have to be torn between the two parents. The children have every right to love both parents, regardless of what the other parent did to their spouse. PLEASE think of the children in every decision that you make.

One more thing, courts usually want the children to stay in whatever school that they are currently in, as continuity is very important to the stability of children. Changing schools, regardless of whether it is a better school, is not in the children's best interest. Status Quo is another term that you need to add to your vocabulary. Courts hate to disrupt anything that is currently in place.

You're absolutely right Mom of 2. The kids are the most important part of this unfortunate situation. I am all for shared custody. I mainly wish to be in charge of their education, and to have them in the same school. My wife can have them most weekends and 4 to 5 days a week during the summer. We will alternate holidays. I think this is the fairest deal considering everything that has happened.

Initially I had my son in kindergarten and my daughter in preschool. The following year I began homeschooling my son, and my wife put my daughter in kindergarten near her.
This year I want them to be in the same school, and from that point on. THIS is what's best for the kids. They are 11 months apart, very close with each other, and deserve to live together on a daily basis.

This is what I have been telling my wife, and it has been a major factor in trying to keep our family together by reconciling our marriage. She obviously doesn't see the importance of this so she shouldn't have grounds for deciding whether the kids attend the same school. It is a great opportunity for the kids and she should at least work together on this with me.

Basically, I wish to settle this out of court with as no contest divorce (if it must be). If she fights me on this plan I will have no choice but to take it to court and be much more aggressive with the settlement.

I absolutely hate this whole situation, but I have been given no choice.

Now that you have a clear picture of what's going on and where things are headed, the only thing to do besides continue with the counseling for yourself, and talk to a lawyer about your rights and options. You have given this female the benefit of a doubt, and done all you can, so school yourself on your next moves, before you blab your intentions to the world. Get things in place, and the ball rolling, as you owe no explanations to anyone, except your kids. Good luck, and sorry for your loss, if that what it is.

Basically, I wish to settle this out of court with as no contest divorce (if it must be). If she fights me on this plan I will have no choice but to take it to court and be much more aggressive with the settlement.

Get a lawyer first before you do or say anything to anyone.

Familyman2, whenever you go to court on anything, you need to keep the other side guessing. The other posters gave you very good advice not to post what your next steps are. Always consult with your attorney.

Another point to ponder: You can present what you want the scenario to be, but keep in mind that your stbx wife will have her own lawyer who will advise her on her rights. She sounds like she will make it very difficult. I just don't want you to be disappointed when you are not able to get everything in your perfect scenario. Keep in mind that if you don't get everything you want, you need to do your best to make whatever outcome work for the best interest of the children.

Point taken you all. Thank you. My heart is breaking even more now that we're at this point. I never wanted this, but I was given no choice. For as long as I live I'll never understand how a mother would not be willing to work as hard as necessary to be able to see her children everyday. As a father, I would crawl to the ends of the earth. Different strokes and values I guess.

I'll try to remain calm and take the high road throughout. Wish me luck... And again, much thanks!

My friend, I can feel your pain, but know in your heart that you have done all you can, and it takes two to work together to make a life. As painful as it is, its for the best in the long run, as you will be free of the hoping for something that can't happen, and the uncertainty of the future. You have a chance to forget the past, and find your own happiness without her. Be a good Dad, that's something she can never take away, as you have many years to deal with this female, regardless of your marital status. I wish you luck, and let us know how you progress. It will get better.

I've been away and have been checking for updates. I'm so sorry, Familyman2, that things had not worked out as you had hoped. As I had suspected, your wife was playing the 'waiting game' and figured you'd want 'out' sooner or later. It's sad when adults (spouses!) play these games. I wish for you that she would have been upfront and told you how she truly felt. Talaniman and Mom of 2 gave you good advise. Please let us know how things are going for you when you have a chance. Wishing you the best, familyman2.

Hello all. I'm just checking in. More as an emotional outlet instead of a legal one.
I am feeling two polarized emotions right now. On one hand I miss my wife terribly.
All the good times keep popping into my head. Everything (and I mean everything) reminds me of her. And on the other hand I am so frickin' angry that my wife would have sex with another man during our marriage. I try not to focus on it, but it's tough. And it is humiliating too. Like Tina Turner said, "It's a thin line between love and hate". An amusing side note: At our recent divorce counseling session my wife emotionlessly said that she doesn't want to hurt me and wants us to remain friends. I just looked at her with utter astonishment. The nerve! Does she really think she hasn't hurt me deeply? Does she really think I have any interest in being friends with someone who would treat me like dirt and with no respect?

I don't yet know how or where to start to heal from a cheating spouse. I consider myself a reasonably tough guy, but this has me fighting like mad to keep it together for my kids.
If there is anybody out there considering reaching outside their marriage, DON'T DO IT!
This is something you wouldn't want to do to your worst enemy. It is sadistic, and it screams lack of character. And it causes extreme psychological pain. Maybe I am overreacting, but I feel things deeply. Also to think I was working my off trying to unify my family while my wife was out there having the time of her life, without having any true interest in reconciling is unsettling. She was just letting me wear myself out.

But all considering I am moving forward and dedicated to get past this and get her out of my life and head for good. It is just a time thing. What else can I do?

In my opinion.. it's always worth a try to go back to where it all began.. the courtship, the good times, the laughter.. when things begin to wind down and fall apart. It's why I always think going on 'dates' alone (without the kids), picnics, movies, writing cards, etc. can bring back some of that spark from the earlier days. But if someone already has their mind on some other agenda, it won't work unfortunately. I think the 'affairs' behavior you had described is brought on by something lacking in the marriage, something different than what one spouse is used to, or, the excitement of doing something taboo in marriage with another person. Usually, but obviously not always, the wandering spouse realizes what he/she had in their stable spouse.. sometimes in time, and sometimes when it's too late. Reading your post made me feel how you are hurting... I'm so sorry to hear what you're going through, familyman2. You sound composed and have all your 'ducks in order'... stay strong and keep your priorities in view. You are young and have a lifetime ahead of you. Get through this and don't look back. Be a great dad and stay good to yourself. As odd as this sounds, perhaps it was meant to be and your soul mate is just around the corner. Please keep us updated on how you're doing, familyman2. You're in our thoughts.

Familyman, I don't know all the details because I just read the first post, but if it is really out of the blue, hire a private detective and get to the bottom of it!

Have you gotten with a good attorney and made any plans? I think it important to know where you stand, as your children will be in back school soon. Any drastic disruption will adversely affect them, so through your anger they take center stage. I know your seeing them a lot and continue to do so, and get there feelings as to what they may want as it would end up being a disaster to uproot them from the familiar secure setting they enjoy. I'm not saying act now, but I am saying is lay the legal groundwork now, and as you continue counseling you will have a leg to stand on that's fair to you. You both still must raise the children with love, so you can expect to work with her for a while, but you don't have to be walked over.

We had our sit down discussion tonight and she conceded to let me put the kids together in the gifted and talented school. We went back and forth on other issues but there seems to be a way we can work these out.

I tried to stay composed as possible and keep it businesslike, but some of the anger started coming up and I said a few choice things to her. It felt good to get it off my chest although I am not very proud of myself for giving in to my anger.

I don't want to hate this woman. I don't want to be this mad at her. Naturally I feel so
Betrayed by her that it is difficult to let go of these emotions. I guess in time it will subside. Maybe it would be nice if she could just own up to her mistakes and give me a sincere apology. I won't hold my breath however. I am really trying to get these toxic feelings out of my system so I can fully live and move on. In a way I feel a little guilty for being this mad at her. If I truly loved her, wouldn't I just want her to be happy with or without me? Again it will probably just take time. And I know I do love her... I mean hate... I mean love... But really, I do love her and still wish things had turned out differently. Like you all have said, this is a good sign that better days are ahead!

Everything happens for a reason...

Family Man - What you are feeling is completely normal. I would not hold my breath for an apology from her, as this will only continue to make you feel down and unfulfilled. I also agree that it is very hard to be friends with someone who cheated on you (the same situation happened to me), but that does not mean that you cannot be civil for the sake of the children. There are many times that I feel like yelling and screaming at my ex, but I always keep thinking about my children and this stops me. I want them always to see me as the one who is in control and I don't want to give their father the satisfaction that he has upset me in any way. Every time that I show my ex that he has gotten under my skin again, I give him power over me. Keep that in mind and hopefully this will help you to remain in control of your reactions in front of her.

You are not the only person who has ever felt the need to "get back at someone" and the best way to do this is to NOT react to anything that the other person does. Fake it 'til you make it I always say. Even if you don't feel happy on the inside, appear to be happy in front of her. Even if you don't feel sure of yourself, appear to be sure of yourself in front of her. Even if you feel sad, angry, etc. don't allow those feelings to show. Acknowledge those feelings and express them to a therapist, friend or other family member but not to your ex.

Keep strong and surround yourself with quality friends and family around you. It will get better.

Well, I think Mom of 2 hit the nail on the head. Very good advice, in my opinion. She has said what I would have written. Stay calm, feel confident and keep your head up, familyman2... especially when you're in the company of your wife. She obviously knew from the start of all of this that she had zero intentions of reconciling. She just wanted you to work it through your system. Keep that in mind when you feel sad.. it will bolster your strength to get through the separation/divorce. Once again, read through what Mom of 2 had written.. her advice makes sense. Good luck and keep us posted.

I am new to this sight but I think it is cool how you guys are trying to work this out. The one thing I can say from being a middle aged woman is that women have midlife crisis just like men do sometimes. Maybe she is going through something like that. Maybe you need to reassure her that you love her no matter what she is going through that you will stick by her. Ask her this question "if you could do or change one thing in your life that would fix it to make you feel good about yourself and your life what would it be?" And make sure that you let her know that you will not be offended by her answer because once a person bounces their feelings off from someone else sometimes they come back better.

familyman2, how are things proceeding? Are you continuing with the therapist for yourself? Are you having equal time with your children? Hope things are going well for you. Give us an update if you're up to it. Take care.

I agree with the principal of what Patriciardg wrote, but I don't think it would work in your situation. This is mainly because you have TRIED to reassure her that you love her and want to support her, etc. but she was not interested. And that is even after you found out about the affair. I feel that you can walk away satisfied knowing that you tried everything that you could in order to save your marriage, but she did not take the bait. You get to a point where you have to just walk away after trying so many times. I think I gave you the definition of insanity, but I will give again anyway; Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. All people are different so don't take what I am about to write as gospel, or think that it will definitely happen, because maybe it won't. However, in some or maybe most cases, people do not realize what they lost until it is gone (remember the song?) She may not realize what she is losing until it is way too late, once she sees that you have moved on and that you are successful and happy on how your life has turned out. The best way to get revenge in this situation is to focus on YOUR future, not hers. Stop thinking about her and start thinking about yourself and your kids. Focus on the things that make you happy and bring you feelings of success. You DO need to go through the anger phase (if there is anyone out there who says that they never get angry, they are lying. Remember, anger is not right or wrong. It is a feeling and feelings are never right or wrong. However, it is what you do BECAUSE of your feelings that may get you in trouble.)

As always, give us updates, as we truly care about what is going on with you. I think that it is because you are a unique and not a typical man. Don't go changing that part of your character and become bitter. There are women out there that would be very appreciative for all that you do. Always know that there are truly good people out there. We (and you included) just chose the wrong person based on what we knew at the time that the relationship started. Good luck to you!!

Sometimes people use divorce as a cop-out to change the situation at hand. Sometimes it is a gesture to try and get that passion, that emotion, etc. back (providing there is nothing too serious making the separation happen). I feel that a separation, long or short, is well needed with a couple. To feel out things, think by themselves, get a grip on life. Some couples seem to have a more passionate, meaningful relationship after separating for a period.

Hello all! Sorry to have dropped out for a few weeks. This divorce has taken the wrong turn. I think you remember the last time I posted, my wife and I sat down and agreed
that I would have the kids for school and she would have them on weekends. Then the summer months she would have them the majority. We disagreed on some of the financial issues but were very close to working those out as well. As upset as I was I still was able to keep calm and work out an amicable divorce. I even invited my wife to come down and check out my new home and the kid's school. Then the #$@% hit the fan:

On the day of my move (7/16), I was frazzled to say the least. I had the kids and no other help. Plus, it was a bitter sweet moment having to say goodbye to our dream home.
I spent many years paying and maintaining this place for my family to return one day.

Anyway, as I was loading up my truck my daughter accidentally spilled the beans. She said that mommy's desk fell off the truck when she was moving. I said "what"!? She began crying because my wife had told her not to tell me that they moved, and she thought she did something wrong. She felt like she betrayed her mom for breaking the secret and she felt like she hurt me by lying. It took me an hour to calm her down and reassure her that I loved her more than anything and that she did nothing wrong. I also asked my daughter
why it was such a big secret. She said that "mommy told us not to tell you because you lied about moving us near the new school". This was of course untrue. I invited my wife to come live with us (this was during the time I thought we could save the marriage). So my wife lied to our children and put them smack into the middle of our divorce. A rotten thing to do. So I said to my daughter that mommy didn't mean that and she was just joking.
Then I said did mommy buy the new home? (I knew there was no way she could even rent a home with her dismal credit). Then my daughter said "no daddy it is Jeff's house.
(This is the man my wife swore was just a friend for the past year and a half. She even kept to this story to the bitter end.)

This is when I hit the roof. My day was obviously ruined. My wife had secretly moved my children into an undisclosed home with some man whom I knew nothing about!
And she told my kids to lie to me.

Obviously the amicable divorce was over and the bitter one began. I got a lawyer and told her the story. We filed for an emergency hearing to deal with this problem. I also told my wife that I would be keeping the kids safe with me until this issue was resolved. She screamed at me and said she was calling the police. I said do what you must, but I will not allow my children to be anywhere near that house until I inspect it and do a full background check on this man. I will not allow my 6 year old daughter in a home of a man who might be a gun toting sex offender. We already know he has no morals or sense of honor. What caring responsible father would allow this living condition without consent.

The hearing took almost two weeks. It was a very stressful time. Then before the hearing was set the two attorneys worked out a plan. Basically it stated that we would continue with 50/50 custody for the remainder of the summer, and that the kids will need to move back to the old house until I get a chance to check out the situation. Also, no boyfriend or girlfriend will be allowed around the children until the divorce is final.

So, my wife got off with basically a slap on the wrist. No wonder she feels like she can do whatever she pleases... she's teflon.

So, my wife did not move the kids out, but instead the boyfriend supposedly leaves the home while the kids are in her custody. I told my attorney this and she said it is within the guidelines; even though I still don't know where this house is, and they won't let me do a background check on this guy because they say he is out of the picture. (for now).
Although, my wife is making noise now that the guy will be able to move back this weekend, and that this was just a temporary condition. I know she will plea to the court and they will OK this. It is so frustrating.

I also filed for a complete divorce and have asked for legal custody of the kids. I want them in my home. It is stable and they will get the proper upbringing by a person who understands values, ethics, and education. The other home has immoral adults who let my son walk in on them in bed. (Tell me this won't do long term damage to my son!)
And they let my wife's 18 year old daughter babysit when they go out. This would be
all right if she could drive and didn't have agoraphobia. This is another recipe for disaster.
I just don't think they think things through.

So this is where we are now. It is so unfortunate, and totally unnecessary. Why my wife did this I'll never know, other than she feels like she can get away with anything.

I loved her and looked past her weaknesses. But now I just want her out of my life.
I gave her so much and I did not deserve this. She is not the person I thought I knew.
I know life is not fair sometimes and I just need to swallow this pill like a man.

But consider this: This man who moved in a on a married woman (my wife) is now on the cusp of having my children live with him too. He has basically usurped my whole family.
The family I fought for, the marriage I fought for. Life is unfair but this is a great deal to bear. I just wish that the justice system could set laws to protect honest familymen from this situation. But the judges and lawyers just shrug their shoulders. It's all about financials to them. I wish the law could take my situation into account and award the children to me. I deserve them. Not my wife, and definitely not this lowlife scum.

They are all I have!

A long story... I thank you if you've taken the time to read this. As always I welcome feedback and advice. Our initial hearing is at the end of September and I need all the help I can get. I want to make sure my lawyer has everything she needs to help me properly.

It's nice to be back with you all. At least I feel at home here.

Kind regards.

Wow. Don't let it get you down, what goes around comes around. Stay strong for those kids and be patient, it will work out okay.

Thanks for the update, familyman2. You have a good head on your shoulders. What a shame that you had to experience this in life. I can't say I was shocked by the behavior of your wife from what you had mentioned in past posts regarding her. I guess I'll never understand women who are self-centered enough to drag their children into lies. What I don't understand is that you haven't been told where she is living with YOUR children? Aren't you supposed to know their exact location according to the court when they are with her? I truly hope things work out in your favor and that you are given custody of the children when all is said and done. Please keep us updated. My prayers and positive thoughts are with you.

Yes, this is a terrible situation.

I thought it was the law that you had to know where your children were living. If you have her phone number, do a reverse directory search. If that does not work, try Google.com to find her address. If you find out where she lives, DO NOT even attempt to go to her house, because she may have you brought up on stalking charges or worse yet that you tried to harm her in some way.

In regard to custody, you will most likely get joint custody, given the fact that you have 50/50 custody at the moment and when a trial happens, the courts usually try to stay with status quo. I am only saying this because I don't want you to be disappointed if you don't get sole custody. On the other hand, always ask for more than you are willing to accept, so ask for sole custody with the idea that you may not get it.

In regard to reacting to the things that your children say, try and be in control of how you react. This IS hard because something's may shock you and you can't help but react with anger/shock/concern, etc. When possible, always respond to anything that they tell you with, "How does this make you feel?" This will give you a few precious moments to think about what to say next.

It is a VERY sad fact that the courts do not care about if one of the parents had an affair or not. It used to matter, but not anymore. It is a shame that our country no longer has morality!! At any rate, what should matter is that your soon to be ex (stbx) is placing your children in immoral situations. It IS affecting your children because they are talking to you about it (at least your daughter is). Have you given thought about getting your children into therapy? If there is going to be a custody fight, you will have to go through a full evaluation, which will involve a psychologist who will evaluate you, your soon to be ex (stbx), and your children. I went through this lengthy and stressful process, which resulted in me being named the custodial parent (that the children would live with me the majority of the time). There are a lot of things that you should know prior to this process, so if your situation comes to this, I would be more than happy to help you in anyway that I can to prepare you for it.

My ex had several affairs, so I know how you are feeling about this. He also allowed his girlfriend(s) to be involved with the children, which drives me mad, but there is nothing that I can do about that. The only thing that you can do is to control the things that you can control. When your children are with you, make your time with them the most stress free that you can. Always take the higher road. It is always very tempting to do exactly what your ex is doing, but don't go down that road. Even if it says in the papers that she is not supposed to do "ABC", it is really hard to make sure that she sticks to it, unless you have her followed, etc. A therapist once told me that I had to LET my ex ruin his relationship with his children, and you have to as well. Your children will eventually get fed up with what she is doing and will no longer want to have anything to do with her when they get older. Be the person that your children know that they can always turn to for anything.

Sorry for the long email, I feel that you are going through the Same situation that I had to go through.

Good luck to you. Stay strong and be prepared for anything and everything!!

Thank you MOM OF 2. I 100% agree with you about the lack of interest by the courts in reference to infidelity. The courts say that they are there to protect the children, but they evidently fail to put 2 and 2 together. In my case my children have been closely involved in my wife's affair, and they have seen them in bed together. I want any judge to tell me how this will not affect my children. The lack of interest in morality, and shoulder shrugs from the judges are directly causing a decay in our culture. Families are falling apart, children are growing up in broken homes, and the judicial system is not doing what it is supposed to do: protect the innocent and work to maintain a sense of responsibility in people. It's open season for infidelity because there are no legal consequences!

I am in a situation now where an outside, dishonorable man is about to bring MY family into his home. Where is my protection? I have spent 7 years developing these children, daily, trying to be a good husband, and now some lowlife gets to waltz in and reap the rewards!? Yes I am mad. I put my career aside to raise these children while my wife pursued her career. I fought for my marriage and my family, and the best I can expect is 50/50? My wife reached outside our marriage, lied to me about it, humiliated me by bringing this man around my in-laws and my kids, abandoned our marriage, consciously broke up our family, secretly moved my kids into an undisclosed home with a man I don't know, lied to our kids, put them in the middle of this divorce and all I can expect is 50/50? Where is my protection? Where the hell is my protection?

I don't want my kids to be alienated from their mother. I want them to have a close, loving relationship--for their sake. But why should I be denied the right to make sure my kids are raised in ONE home where there are high standards, where it is safe (I have a six year old daughter. Do I want her in a home with some strange man? He could have a record, he could keep weapons in his home, he could be a pedophile), and in a home where they will have the stability necessary to thrive in school and in life? 50/50 won't due. I want my kids. In my opinion she waived her rights... I did everything I could to give us both 100/100. It just wasn't important enough to give up her fantasy.

Honestly, if the tables were turned and it was the man doing what my wife did and the wife fighting to keep her family together, how much custody would she get? My guess is somewhere pretty close to full custody. Trust me, I am an advocate for equal rights, but alternatively I have no sense of humor about discrimination.

Anyway MOM OF 2, I do plan to get a child counselor for my kids and for myself. I wish to have this work to my advantage and I would be very grateful for any advice on the process, the conduct, and the content. And advice on anything else pertaining to father's rights.

My initial hearing is at the end of September and I want to have every possible angle covered. This is the fight of my life. I know that it shouldn't be thought of as a fight as much as it should be thought of as a process to do what is best for the kids. However, I feel the cards are stacked against me, and the courts want status quo rather than what is truly best for the kids. So in essence, it is a fight. A fight for what I believe is right.

You SHOULD think of this as a fight. That is exactly what it is. I agree with Momof2 - ask for the moon - but expect not to get it. If you don't ask for it - you know what you will be getting. You never know how these things will turn out. You could get a judge that is sympathetic to Dad's or was just cheated on by his wife - his view could be jaded. You just never know. So go for what you want. Don't be afraid and don't back down.
Your wife seems to be using your kids as weapons. And you have to do everything to protect them. Hopefully the courts will see that.

It is okay to be mad about what has happened to you with your wife. It is a terrible thing. It's not right or fair. Try your best to keep your anger in check when your kids are there. You can't do anything about what your wife is doing - putting them in the middle - but YOU don't have to play that game. You can take the high road to make your kids feel like they don't have to choose.
Good Luck.

Familyman2, you're right. It is obscenely unfair that the courts don't look at longterm damage to the children. It's a business.. that's all. A business for the attorneys.. a business for the courts. It's all cut and dry. They don't look at yesterday and they don't look at tomorrow. You are hurting and it's all too understandable. You wrote, "I am in a situation now where an outside, dishonorable man is about to bring MY family into his home. Where is my protection? I have spent 7 years developing these children, daily, trying to be a good husband, and now some lowlife gets to waltz in and reap the rewards!?!" Isn't that just unbelievable?? And yet your spouse can forget all of that? I agree 100% with Mom of 2 and NowWhat... go for the moon, as one of them said. This is your ONLY real chance of getting what you want and what is right. Know in advance that you will get less than what you are asking for.. you HAVE to go for well over what YOU think is acceptable.. as the court try to reach a 'happy medium', in their eyes. Contact Mom of 2, especially since she has gone through this. You need to arm yourself with all the help you can, especially from people who have gone through this themselves. As always... our thoughts are with you, familyman2. Please keep us in the loop.

I hadn’t intended to post today until a turn of events threw me for a loop.

MOM OF 2, I think I might take you up on the offer for guidance. Let’s figure a way to make contact. I am truly grateful for your offer, and I promise not to take advantage of it.

As we all have known, my extb and I agreed that the kids would be with me on school nights and attend the new “magnet” school together, at last.

In the midst of the worst period of my life, with all of everybody’s encouragement, I have managed to focus on the kids. Over the past two months I have taken the initiative to find a good school, and to rent an apartment right next to the school’s playground. For now I have a rent and a mortgage, but it has put the kids where they belong.

As well, I have bought all of their school clothes, shoes, and supplies. I have done all of the enrollment procedures, had the kids tested, and brought them through the school to get used to it. I have spent the past months getting the kids acclimated to their new home, and have gotten them very excited to begin school. Basically, I have done everything I could possibly think of to build in stability for the children. We even have worked out bedtimes, wake up times, and the path to school.

Alternatively, the extb has done nada! Outside of working her self serving ways she has done nothing to help me get these children ready for their new adventure.

But guess what. Now she is asking the courts to let her bring the kids to school on Mondays, and have sleepovers on alternate Wednesdays. She is completely undermining the efforts I have made to give the kids what they need. They don’t need to be dragged from one home to the other during the week. They shouldn’t have to wake up an extra hour earlier to take the 45 minute car ride from the extb’s home. With her dismal attendance record, (last year my daughter missed over 20 days of school, mostly unexcused, and was late over 15 times. And the bus stopped right in front of their house!), and with the high risk of traffic jams there is no way she’ll consistently get them to school on time, or at all.

If this plan goes through the kids will have two different bedtimes, and two different wake up times. They will be tossed into an unstable situation, all because the ex is thinking about herself before the kids. Worst of all I think the attorneys are in cahoots trying to negotiate the “status quo”. They are trying to work out a deal that is good for the parents rather than a deal that is good for the kids. They are losing focus in my opinion.
I want to feel that my attorney is fighting for me, rather than negotiating away the children’s stability.

I can’t allow this to happen. I am worried more than ever with the thoughts of this plan.
I wonder if the judges and lawyers will actually see the absurdity of her pleas. Or will they award this, and/or more to the ex because of her sex, or because of the “joint” custody policy. What can I do outside of praying a lot?

Your plan is solid and your efforts are commendable. It is obvious that your wife is trying her best to look as good as you, at least on paper. Don't sweat it at all as she is only putting up a good fight. You get two opposing lawyers together, this is what you get. Stay focused on your kids and not the courts. No matter what happens your kids will be grown one day, and they will appreciate what you are doing now.

Guess what...

I didn't budge today. I said it was not in the best interests of the kids to upset the stability I have worked hard to provide for them. I will not back down from this.

So my extb's response was that since I wouldn't compromise she will petition the courts to let her have the kids for school near her. She would be willing to rip the kids away from the school they are so excited to attend because she didn't get her way. Instead of understanding the importance of the kids stability she is messing with the system to hurt me and to benefit her. She has no inkling about the effects on the kids.

I just fear that the lawyers might deem me unwilling to cooperate and it will cause an adverse effect on my case. I hope that someone can see I am fighting for the kids.
If not, the courts will be placing a handicap on my children's future potential! I am frustrated and a bit scared. I just can't give in on this one...

Does anyone know if it is illegal to use the kids as pawns so my ex can get her way? If I don't give in to her demands she will punish me by taking away the kids. That is just wrong!

That's all for now. I have been venting quite a bit this week. I guess it's been a tough one.
I don't know if it is the best thing to do by airing my case over the internet, but it is very therapeutic. And I am not divulging anything that my ex doesn't already know.

So have a good one and let me hear from you. I don't know how yet, but I am going to show my gratitude to you all some day. You have no idea how much your insight
Means to me. Thank you!

Don't back down and its up to a judge not her so don't let her hard ball tactics scare you. This is just starting so get ready for more of the same.

Ok. Here are my thoughts after reading all of the posts several times.

First, familyman, I would be more than happy to offer my assistance to you, as you will need a lot of pointers before going into court and through the evaluation process. I have no problem what so ever in posting my suggestions on this site, but if you also want to connect offline, that is okay as well. Just let me know.

Second, compromise is the name of the game in this process. It is not "illegal" per se to use the children as pawns, but that does not mean that it makes it right. You can't bring your stbx up on charges because she really has not done anything illegal. She is morally wrong, but she has not done anything illegal in the eyes of the court. Now, if she was beating or neglecting the children, then she could be brought up on charges. (By neglect I mean not feeding them, not clothing them, leaving them to run the streets without proper supervision, etc.) Keep a record of all of the poor and immoral decisions that she has made with corresponding dates (exact times if at all possible). Note the dates and times when your daughter tells you things. Use anything and everything that you can against her to show that she is not the best parent, but do it in a way that does not appear to be vengeful or vindictive. Listen to your lawyer on the best way that you can do this.

Lawyers are simply put expensive negotiators. Only 5-10% of all divorces go to trial, which means that the majority of all divorces are negotiated between the lawyers/clients. There will be times when you feel that the lawyers are in cahoots, but everyone who has gone through a divorce has felt this way. I am sure that everyone on this site had to give up something in their divorce in order to get the one thing that they felt strongly about. Learn to see the forest through the trees. With that I mean step back and try and look at the big picture. What is the ultimate goal that you are trying to achieve?

If I understand you, you want the children to be able to attend their current school with as little disruption as possible. I don't think that you realize that you are really at an advantage by living so close to the school that the children are enrolled at. By status quo, I do not mean that EVERYTHING about your current arrangement will be the one that will be decided upon, but rather all decisions on custody will revolve around making sure that the children will continue to attend their current school, status quo. She is really at a disadvantage. The residential parent is usually the parent who lives within the school boundaries of the school that the children are attending, which would be you. You are worried about the fact that your stbx will not be able to get your daughter to school on time. Well, let her hang her own noose. If your ex gets her way and your daughter is late to school or has missed any days when she is with her, then document that. Keep close tabs with the school and get documentation from THEM for all of the days that she is late or has missed any days. Then use THAT against her for reasons she cannot have any overnights on school nights. You need to show proof to the court, as you are just one divorcing couple among thousands that they see. It is unfortunate that your children will be have to suffer in order to show the court proof, but know that in the end, things will work themselves out. You cannot control everything that your ex does and you cannot shield your children from every bad situation in their lives, but you can show them what a good life is as compared to what your ex is offering. In order for people to appreciate the good things in life, they need to know and experience things that may not be so good.

I am getting off my soapbox now. Hopefully I have helped in some way.

I think the important thing is to keep yourself focused on the kids as your actions have already proved, a judge would be hard pressed to ignore what you've done, and I'm sure her lawyer has told her of this. She will be hard pressed to match what you've done, so no doubt will come up with ways to insert her own interest into these negotiations. The only mistake you can make, is to stop her from having quality time with her children, which would not be in their interests, or yours either. Mom of 2 is correct that this will probably never go to trial, as whatever you and the ex negotiate, will be signed off by the judge. Pick your battles carefully and remember you are tied to this woman for a long time.

Familyman, you need to identify the one thing that you will not back down on AT ALL. What is that one thing? What are the other things that are important to you, but you are willing to compromise on? The third thing, what are the things that may be kind of important to you, but that you are willing to give up entirely in order to get the one thing that you REALLy, REALLY want? Remember, you can't get everything that you are asking for, as you will be viewed as not able to compromise and this little thing will really hurt you. You won't necessarily lose custody entirely, but the divorce will drag on and on and all of the money that you could be spending on the kids will instead be spent on the lawyers. Just a little food for thought.

Thank you all.

The one thing I will not back down from is having the children wake up on school days from a bed that is literally 200 feet from the school.

The ex is free to come over and walk the kids to school, and home any day. This I will negotiate. Plus, she gets them on most weekends.

I will negotiate summertime custody. And the one thing I hate to do but will compromise on is Christmas. She can have them for that holiday. I think this would be a huge gesture on my part to show how serious I am about the children's stability and convenience.

So this is the battle I am picking, and don't plan to back down. What do you think?

MOM OF 2 can I email you? I would give you mine but I don't want to give away my identity here due to the circumstances. I can also understand if you feel the same, so we could figure another way to make contact, or we could continue our discussion here. In a way this might be best so we can include our other allies here in the mix. Whatever will work for you will work for me.

Incidentally, my kid's orientation is today and my extb won't return the kids to me. I called her voice mail (and both attorneys) with the time and directions to the school. I also emailed her and the two attorneys with this info. I figure if she shows up with them it is good because then they have started school down here. If she doesn't show up with them I believe it will look pretty bad for her, and should do some harm to her case.?

Amendment with great news!

It came to a head today where I was maintaining my stance and the ex was trying to
Petition the judge to let the kids go with her. After all was said and done I got the kids during school. She can drive them in on Monday mornings provided they are on time every time, or else she will be in contempt of court. And she can visit with them for a few hours every other Wednesday. This is huge! It was what I've wanted for the kids. And now they will spend their academic years with me. I can't tell you how relieved I am. I slept for about twenty minutes last night. The ex will get them for most weekends, and about 60% of the summer. We will split all holidays. With this I will have the kids the majority of the time and should become the legal custodian in time. It will be a long range goal.

The next battle will be over money. But it should be a lower stress deal compared to the custody. I'm sure you all will agree, for the most part.

One other thing, It has been ordered that I can conduct a full background investigation
On this man with whom my ex and children will be living. He cannot be anywhere near the kids until he clears, and we have a long talk about parenting. He's going to know that I will hold him to task to do the best he can for those kids when they're with him.

So, that's it for now. The past few weeks have been murder, but I feel much better today I think I might go eat something!

Regards

That's great news and as long as you keep putting what's best for your kids first, I don't think you can lose. Go have a steak while you still have a few bucks. Glad for you.

Congrats! I know you must feel like a weight has been lifted. Any time our kids well being comes into question - you feel like if you don't act NOW - something terrible is going to happen. So, with the kids living with you most of the time, you KNOW they are being taken care of.
Good For You!
I would imagine that a custody issue is the biggest hurtle - you have gotten over it and won, the rest should seem like cake!

The next battle will be over money. But it should be a lower stress deal compared to the custody. I'm sure you all will agree, for the most part.

Where as I may agree, but I don't think your wife will give in all that easy. Neither should you, as you have the kids, and they can be expensive. You've already shown her she doesn't have a lot of bargaining power at this point, so secretly I hope you take her to the cleaners, but on another level, I hope you two can work together for your children.

Amen Talaniman. And thanks for the pat on the back NowWhat.

I do plan to fight for my equitable rights. I put my career on the burner to raise the kids while I helped my ex to further hers. Of course now she claims it was all 50/50 and will not give me any credit for the sacrifice I made for her over the past 12 years.

I really hope the lawyers and judges will be fair and see the true picture.

Quick question:

I am a bit frustrated about a big mistake that my attorney made. The parenting plan we agreed on was that the extb could visit the kids every other Wednesday for a few hours. And that she could get the kids Friday at 5PM regardless of whether there is school on that day or not. It was also agreed that she could have 21 extra overnights during the summer to make up for this plan.

But the lawyer sent to the judge that the extb could visit every Wednesday, she gets the kids at noon on Fridays when there is no school that day, and that she gets an extra 26 days during the summer. I asked the secretary why this was sent to the judge before I had a chance to review it and sign it. She obviously didn't know. I sent a fax about this to my lawyer but haven't heard back. Do I have any rights here, or am I screwed?

A 5 day difference in the summer, is what I'm reading, and if I'm right, a small point to concede, in light of the other battles. She is the children's mother, and should spend a very good amount of time with her kids, and they would love it. A very small point to worry about for sure, and that's probably how your lawyer saw it. There will be other more important issues to resolve.

Agreed, it is small compared to the recent compromise. However, I came into this seeking sole custody and that keeps getting whittled down. I think I just want to say enough before she winds up having the kids more and becomes the legal custodian. Maybe I'm making too much of this, but I am losing confidence in my attorney and I am very leary of my extb's manipulations and tricks. It's just an uncomfortable feeling...

And besides, 5 extra days a year with my kids will be 5 great days.

The one thing to keep in mind is that if you fight every single little point, you will spend A LOT of money. This money could be better spent on the kids. The one who is the most adversarial in the parenting relationship will be looked at in a negative way and will lose on many points. Remember, there is always more than one way to say something and more than one way to get your point across. Yes, 5 days may sound like it is a lot, but it flies by more quick than you may think. You may have lost a small battle, but you did not necessarily lose the war.

It sounds as though you are not understanding all of the legal terminology. Legal custody determines decision making power for education, medical and religion. There are two kinds: Joint and Sole. I hate to put a damper on your psyche, but the majority of all divorces end up with joint legal custody. That does not mean that you should not try for sole custody because you should always ask for more than you are willing to accept.

Visitation is totally separate from this. Even if one parent has sole custody, the other parent still has the right to see their child. The only time that this is not allowed is when there is an extreme risk of physical/emotional harm to the child. Visitation always varies, and it REALLY sounds like you have a GREAT visitation deal compared to what other families have ended up with. The most important thing is that the children have one bed to sleep in during the week when they are in school. There are kids that go from one house to the other every other day (sometimes this works and sometimes it does not). If your stbx has them on every weekend, when will she have the time to socialize? Most likely she is going to start complaining over the fact that she has them every weekend and would like a change. If she does not complain to you about that, then she will start sending them off to baby sitters so that she can have some R&R time. This may sound bad to you, but as my parent coach once said to me, you have to allow your ex to ruin their relationship with your children. Your children, in time, will see the true story and will want to be with you more. If your stbx is never with them, or they are spending A LOT of time with your ex in-laws/babysitters, believe me, they will remember this. If you are the bigger person, your children will respect you more for that. Once your children are adults and are able to decide who they want in their lives, they will make that choice based on how you conducted yourself during this time. Again, your children will only be young for a short period. Make the most of it and don't make them feel bad about their childhood. Make good memories for them because that is what you can control. Let your ex be the bad parent because you cannot control every little thing. Believe me, your children will be more resilient than you may think because you will be supplying them with a great example of what a good parent is and they will see from their mom what a bad parent is. Remember, when there is good there has to be bad in order for people to know what is good and bad. With that, they will appreciate even more all of the things that you do for them.

Believe me, you have more on your side than you realize. At the very least, I think that you will be the custodial (aka residential) parent. You may be awarded sole legal custody, but I would not necessarily hold my breath on that one. If you don't get it, don't think that you lost. The courts just view that everyone needs to come together for the children, even if the parents are forced to do so.

Here are my suggestions for the psychological evaluation (if you find that you need to go through this process)

Here it goes (it is long):

1. Try and get in to see the psychologist FIRST before your ex. I called the psychologist within 2 minutes of hearing that I had to make an appointment with him and I got in first.

2. You will be asked why you feel the marriage failed. Be honest, be ready to share the responsibility of the breakdown because it NEVER is only one person's fault (unless there is abuse). A good one is that communication failed and then indicate ways in which you feel that you could have communicated better. I stated that I failed to communicate effectively because I constantly felt that my ideas would be rejected as being stupid. Therefore, I bottled up a lot of things or tried to fix things that went wrong because I was fearful of being criticized for being stupid. I also stated that my in-laws were constantly overstepping their boundaries by letting themselves into my house unannounced and at one time they started to rearrange the furniture in my home because they felt that it would look better than how I had it.

3. Be cooperative!! Do whatever the psychologist is asking that you do (But don't be stupid). When in doubt, say that you have to consult with your lawyer. However, be careful to not appear that you cannot make a decision for yourself. If the psychologist asks that you take an MMPI-II test (a standardized test), you will have to do so. Saying that you have to consult with your lawyer only makes you appear uncooperative and paranoid. Ask your lawyer prior to your appointment what are customary requests and what are requests that are out of the ordinary. When you do take the MMPI-II, answer the questions as openly and honest as possible. Do not read too much into the question. Do not try and appear to be better than you actually are.

4. If the psychologist asks you to sign a paper to open any medical records on you, refuse. Blame your lawyer and state that your lawyer advised you not to do so. Or you can say that you personally do not have anything to hide, but that you will have to consult with your lawyer before you sign anything. Make your lawyer be the bad guy, not you. (By the way, this is NOT the same as blame). HIPPA (spelling?) protects you. There is a reason that people's medical files cannot be used without a person's consent.

5. DO NOT in anyway, shape or form talk badly about your ex NO MATTER WHAT they have done. Always try and put a positive spin on it. Ex: "I believe that deep down inside __________ may love the children dearly, but I do not think that he/she has the childrens' best interests at heart." -- Be ready to support this answer /why do you feel this way. Try and think of at least 3 redeeming qualities that your stbx may have. I know that right now this may be difficult to do, but think back to when you first met and I am sure that you can think of something, anything. Studies have shown that the more immature parent cannot see any positive/good things about the other parent. This parent is the one who always loses in a custody battle. Be honest. If your ex is smart, is organized, and is a great business person, give them those credits. You will gain credability points right there.

6. Don't make it sound like you are a person who has NEVER made a mistake. Be ready to accept responsibility for those things that you made a mistake on. Admit that with the information that you have now, you would have done A, B or C differently. This does not mean that you are admitting that you are the reason for the failed marriage, but you are not playing the blame game either.

7. As already stated in #3, don't play the blame game. Although your ex may have made some bad choices, you reacted to the choices they made, or maybe they did something because you did something before that, and that was only because the other person did... See how it goes. Remember, you graduated from the first grade.

8. Don't get overly defensive. Calmly explain your situation, but do so in a calm manner. Remember to remain calm. Did I mention to stay calm? If you find yourself getting tense, take a deep breath and refuse to get angry about something that the psychologist says. Remember, it is their job to try and provoke you. If you feel this is what is happening, take a minute and think before you respond to anything.

9. Dress in nice clothes, but don't necessarily dress in a suit. I would not come in torn jeans, a spotted shirt, etc. You are to appear as you normally are, not as a slob but also not to overly impress either. They are psychologists and it is their job to analyze everything that you do, say and show.

10. Relax and try and be yourself. Remember, these are professionals and they will see through any snowjobs.

11. Don't force the psychologist to take or read anything that they are not asking for. Example: My ex forced letters that his mom and his sister wrote about me and my supposed unstable behaviors onto the psychologist. This backfired because the psychologist did not ask for them. Yes, the psychologist did read them, but I was able to CALMLY refute the points that they made as totally inaccurate/taken out of context (notice how I stated inaccurate versus stating that they are liars, which they were - this is what we call spin).

12. A major reason that a lot of marriages fail is due to infidelity. However, you cannot appear to be overly angry/jealous over the fact that your stbx has someone else. You will then appear to be the angry and jealous stbx who is not in control of their emotions and is "out to get" your stbx. You can say something like this: "When I first heard about the affair, I was shocked and hurt. However, I feel that I have come to terms with it and know that I am no longer their significant other. It is my hope that we can work together for the sake of the children. However, although I am an adult and I am able to move on from this affair, I feel that it is more difficult for the children and I am concerned (NOT ANGRY) over the fact that my wife has introduced her boyfriend to the children, has displayed public displays of affection in front of them, and they have seen them in bed together, etc. before the children even knew that we were getting a divorce/before the divorce was filed". I think you get the picture.

These are the main points I wanted to get across. Since this post is sooo long, I will stop here. If you have any questions about any of this, feel free to ask away. I hope that this helps!!

Once your children are adults and are able to decide who they want in their lives, they will make that choice based on how you conducted yourself during this time. Again, your children will only be young for a short period.
The whole response is dead-on, but this is a gem, and I have to highlight it. Probably the biggest change of perception that parenthood, and now grandparenthood, has wrought in me is the realization that childhood is SO SHORT. I remembered my own childhood as lasting a long time, so I wasn't fully prepared for how short it turned out to be for my children. It is vitally important to keep this fact in mind as you go through this.

If she wants a divorce but she hasn't done anything to really get one seems like something is missing, maybe you should take her away on a vacation just you and her [if money is the problem maybe just a weekend at the beach] she might need your attention she seems confused,it happenens as we get older we don't know what makes us happy, and if that don't work you need to start the divorce then maybe she will see that she needs to make up her mind... Good luck

Great MOMOF2, thank you. I will do everything you recommend.

I did lose this battle. But the bottom line is that the kids are in school here, and will sleep in the same bed on school nights (except for Sunday, when the ex will bring them in Monday mornings). We'll see how that works out!

And you're right about the joint custody thing. The kids will know in time who had their best interests in mind. I guess I am still just very hurt from the whole thing and am reasoning from frustration and anger, instead of realistic logic. A couple days here and there won't matter in the big picture.

So it seems as the custody issue is working itself out. Will we still need to submit to the evaluations before the final custody agreement is signed? Are there any things I need to be aware of before we reach a financial agreement?

On a final note: The kids love school! They like their teachers. And I get to walk them into their classrooms every morning. It really is a good thing!

Thanks again MOMOF2. I am grateful for this information.

They will throw all the marital assets into a big bowl and divide it. Property will be sold or bought out. My question is will she pay child support, or does she get alimony??

I know exactly how you feel... this is almost a carbon copy of my life.
The truth was... He wanted ME to pay for the divorce ( that's why he stalled on getting things started)... so HE could tell the kids that I paid for the divorce, making it out that I was the bad one. Please be careful. Don't let her have anything... believe me, I will never be that stupid again!!

My husband informed me today that he was going to file for a Divorce. We have been married 18yrs, and have 3 children. One is of age so custody for him isn't an issue. The other two said they will not live with him. Anyway, I think after years and years of no communication and resentments building up it's bound to explode. I have went to counseling, he has not. I am not perfect, I get that but he thinks he has done everything right. Anyway, puleeeeeeeze lol. I am upset and can't quit crying. I am not surprised by this really, I think I knew it was coming. I told him to do what he has to do, he can file he can pay the money and I will contest it until the cows come home. I have stayed home to raise our kids, sacrificed my career to make sure our kids had the attention they deserved. They all are wonderful kids, not in trouble or anything. I don't regret staying home, except in the fact now I have an old education, even though I am very technically savvy. Sucks to be on the receiving end, but hopefully I will not end up on a street corner living in a cardboard box. After 18yrs, divorce seems very complicated. If he does indeed file, I will contest it and then get an attorney on my husbands dime. If he wants all out war, well I am not going down without a fight.

My husband informed me today that he was going to file for a Divorce. We have been married 18yrs, and have 3 children. One is of age so custody for him isn't an issue. The other two said they will not live with him. Anyway, I think after years and years of no communication and resentments building up it's bound to explode. I have went to counseling, he has not. I am not perfect, I get that but he thinks he has done everything right. Anyway, puleeeeeeeze lol. I am upset and can't quit crying. I am not surprised by this really, I think I knew it was coming. I told him to do what he has to do, he can file he can pay the money and I will contest it until the cows come home. I have stayed home to raise our kids, sacrificed my career to make sure our kids had the attention they deserved. They all are wonderful kids, not in trouble or anything. I don't regret staying home, except in the fact now I have an old education, even though I am very technically savvy. Sucks to be on the recieving end, but hopefully I will not end up on a street corner living in a cardboard box. After 18yrs, divorce seems very complicated. If he does indeed file, I will contest it and then get an attorney on my husbands dime. If he wants all out war, well I am not going down without a fight.
Hey listen, think of yourself as lucky, it's a start of a new life,, take him for everything he has,, you will not be living in the street,after 18yrs of marriage he will not only have to pay for 2 kids under age but also will have to pay you monthly,, why I say you are lucky is because I wish my husband would go get a divorce, I have been married to a man for 19yrs since he was medicaly discharged form the navy on 0 percent[thats another story]11yrs ago he has not gone to work, he use to go maybe 2xs a week but its been months and the doctors refuse to write letters to disabilaty so we can get some income in the house his mommy has been paying the rent,, I go back to work next week full time I have 4 kids at home,, I keep telling him to move out but he has nowhere to go,, once I get on my feet at this new job I am going to the court house and finding out my rights and how to get him out,, he takes up space does nothing around here but sleep and eat,, you will be fine and don't know if you believe in GOD I always did but never like I do now, if you let GOD in your corner I can't see anything you can't handle,, keep your chin up there will be better days,,
Good luck

Well after a long discussion last night, he decided we can try to work things out. This is not the first time, but I am willing to try because it seems like a big hassle separating things after this many years. He is not abusive, he works hard has a good pension (which is half mine lol). :D He said he checked into it, but he hasn't talked to a lawyer or anything. Things really started around the time his mother passed away about a year ago in a fatal car accident. He has been suffering depression, but going to a doctor for it. He just started seeing a counselor last week, so I hope that will help things. Marriage is a difficult thing, I still plan to stay on top of things. My biggest fear is having no place to go, because of being a stay at home mom. But I am planning to look for a job that is similar to my kids schedule at school so I can still be here for them. I also don't want the threat of divorce hanging over my head, or walking on eggshells.
And yes we are both believers in Jesus, I prefer for divorce not to be an option.
Hopefully God will put our marriage together like it should be.
Thanks for being here and listening, I appreciate it.
I am sorry for your situation, I wish things were different for you. You sound like you have an excellent plan and are ahead of the game. :)