Since covid 49,000 Americans under the age of 18 have died of all causes . Of those 331 of those deaths can be traced to complications from getting covid .Less than half that from pneumonia.
Over 600,000 Americans have lost their lives to covid over the course of the pandemic; just 0.05 % of those were under the age of 18, a population that represents more than 20 % of the country’s population

Many more kids have died from Respiratory Syncytial Virus (RSV) because they were wearing masks and being quarantined for 18 months preventing them from building up immunity . The mortality rate for kids was higher for the flu than covid ever was .

The same numbers represent mortality rated for kids that have the Delta variant .

And yet the kids have been treated the same as if they are geezers with pre-existing conditions . We go so far as expecting high school atheletes in an outdoor track meet to wear masks as they compete .
Summit HS runner collapses across finish line - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12FwwD69k-E)

But you say .We put that burden on the kids not to protect the kids ,but to protect others from the kids . And you are good with that .
But now over 90% of the highest risk groups have been vaccinated .Anyone who wants to be vaccinated has been already ;or it is available to them in the US .

Open the schools and let the children get back to the business of learning .

By all means but there are also teachers who may be vulnerable, kids are very good at spreading disease

In Arkansas, Covid-19 cases surge as state combats vaccine skepticism (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/in-arkansas-covid-19-cases-surge-as-state-combats-vaccine-skepticism/ar-AAM23ke?ocid=msedgntp)

Saying it's over doesn't mean it's over.

teachers who may be vulnerable,
read again Anyone who wants to be vaccinated has been already ;or it is available to them in the US .

Sure, but you are not 100% vaccinated yet?

tal I did not say it is over . What I did say was that there is no reason to punish the kids. They are not the high risk groups ;and everyone else has the ability to get vaccinated free of charge . .

Tom, maybe but it has escaped you in the melee, vaccinated people also contract covid because it keeps mutating. reminds me of the book/movie the Andromeda strain or the scenario in Stargate SG1

tell me one case of someone getting covid after vaccination . We are told that the vac prevents the Delta variant too.

tell me one case of someone getting covid after vaccination . We are told that the vac prevents the Delta variant too.
April 15, 2021
"About 5,800 people who have been vaccinated against coronavirus have become infected anyway, the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention tells CNN.

Some became seriously ill and 74 people died, the CDC said. It said 396 -- 7% -- of those who got infected after they were vaccinated required hospitalization."
https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/14/health/breakthrough-infections-covid-vaccines-cdc/index.html

tell me one case of someone getting covid after vaccination . We are told that the vac prevents the Delta variant too.

We have had cases here of vaccinated people here testing positive it is one of the reasons our health experts have gone ape on us

cc

April 15, 2021
"About 5,800 people who have been vaccinated against coronavirus have become infected anyway, the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention tells CNN.

Some became seriously ill and 74 people died, the CDC said. It said 396 -- 7% -- of those who got infected after they were vaccinated required hospitalization."
https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/14/healt...cdc/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/14/health/breakthrough-infections-covid-vaccines-cdc/index.html)




To be clear ;that is 74 deaths against 159 million + vaccinated in the US






ok no problem shut down society forever . If covid is endemic like the flu with new variants periodically ;now what ?

It is insane to punish the least vulnerable when it comes to morbidity. Do what you can to protect the vulnerable and let the rest of the people live their lives .

fact less than 1% of Americans under 24 who got Covid was hospitalized and less than 0.01 % died . That is a better rate than the flu .
COVID-19 Trends Among Persons Aged 0–24 Years — United States, March 1–December 12, 2020 | MMWR (cdc.gov) (https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7003e1.htm)

But kids education was left behind .
Covid is having a devastating impact on children — and the vaccine won't fix everything (nbcnews.com) (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/education/covid-having-devastating-impact-children-vaccine-won-t-fix-everything-n1251172)

And kid suicides increased .
Child Suicides Rising During Lockdown (webmd.com) (https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210210/child-suicides-rising-during-lockdown)

Time to stop punishing the kids for the pandemic

B/S the kids are not being punished, their parents are being protected

no the essential workers who should've showed up every day like other essential workers ,aka the teachers ,are the ones being protected at the expense of the children.

the teachers are the ones being protected at the expense of the children.
How would you have orchestrated this?

By summer last year all the relevant information was available .

so you would cure covid with data

this isn't about "curing " .Like the flu and the common cold ,covid is with us . We have to deal with it .

this isn't about "curing " .Like the flu and the common cold ,covid is with us . We have to deal with it .
And so how do we deal with it, especially teachers with classrooms of 25-30 students?

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/custom/vgo/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by tomder55 https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/custom/vgo/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?p=3871573#post3871573)
this isn't about "curing " .Like the flu and the common cold ,covid is with us . We have to deal with it .



And so how do we deal with it, especially teachers with classrooms of 25-30 students?




How do line workers in factories all over the country deal with it ? How do grocery store workers deal with it ? How do hospital staff deal with it ? They put on their clothes and go do their job . If anything teachers are supposed to be more essential and yet they act as if their jobs are voluntary participation ;and the kids suffer as a result . I have no sympathy for them .Let them find work where the risks are more acceptable to them .

Private schools thrived BECAUSE they did not shut down this school year . If there is data saying those teachers have had higher percentage of cases I have not seen them .

Tom looks to business as usual, just get on with it, take a sick day if you are sick, infect others until the symptoms overwhelm you, vaccinate and take the risk. Tom, in case you don't know the name of this virus is SARS-Covid-19, it is a more virulent version of the flu we know and love so well which kills thousands each year and if left to run rampant will continue to do so with increasing ferocity as you have already experienced, but this version now infects the young as well as the old

How do line workers in factories all over the country deal with it ? How do grocery store workers deal with it ? How do hospital staff deal with it ? They put on their clothes and go do their job .
No, the factory workers stayed home, and the factories stopped or at least slowed operations. Same with grocery stores, and prices went up as shelves became bare. Hospital staff are finally rebelling now that, as of today in the U.S., there are
34,804,786 cases and 623,396 deaths.

My factory remained open as did many essential operations ;and I worked in a state where the government ejaculated in anticipation of the prospects of doing draconian lockdowns .. Food was still processed and delivered .

Here is how warped it all has become .
The state of California in opposition to CDC guidelines will require vaccinated students and teachers to still wear masks .

Why ? No not for any heath reasons . “At the outset of the new year, students should be able to walk into school without worrying about whether they will feel different or singled out for being vaccinated or unvaccinated,” California Health & Human Services Agency Secretary Dr. Mark Ghaly said. "Treating all kids the same will support a calm and supportive school environment.”

These people are certifiably insane !

.
These people are certifiably insane !

You are certifiably insane. Have you never heard of solidarity, the wearing of masks is prescribed to stop the spread, if some don't wear masks it lessens the action, people feel they don't have to. Modify the requirement by all means but wear masks in a closed environment. Even if you are vaccinated you can still get it and spread it

I came back to in-person learning (in the classroom) in February. I teach public school Kindergarten and my students were able to keep their masks on. We washed our hands frequently, did our best to social distance, and no cases of COVID-19. We reopen in early August. California is requiring masks. Am I upset? Honestly, whatever it takes to get the children in school is better than distance learning again. Obviously 4 and 5 year old children cannot be vaccinated at this time. So, we will all wear masks, again. Try teaching 30 littles online— (they take off their clothes, jump on their beds, and play with their toys). They did not learn to share, collaborate, or get enough personal attention online.
If you aren’t a teacher, then you may not understand that we want to be with our students and we will do whatever it takes to be with them in the classroom. If masks are required, so be it.

Yes school is good but there are wider issues, people mixing while drop off/pickup so maybe some children have to be taught to behave, essential lesson best taught in the home

You are certifiably insane. Have you never heard of solidarity, the wearing of masks is prescribed to stop the spread, if some don't wear masks it lessens the action, people feel they don't have to. Modify the requirement by all means but wear masks in a closed environment. Even if you are vaccinated you can still get it and spread it

I'll repeat ..... the CDC guidelines say that the 'vaxed ' do not need to wear masks . The state of California must be anti-science .

Sometimes I think you are anti common sense

The state of California in opposition to CDC guidelines will require vaccinated students and teachers to still wear masks .

Why ? No not for any heath reasons . “At the outset of the new year, students should be able to walk into school without worrying about whether they will feel different or singled out for being vaccinated or unvaccinated,” California Health & Human Services Agency Secretary Dr. Mark Ghaly said. "Treating all kids the same will support a calm and supportive school environment.”

These people are certifiably insane !It's all about feelings. They don't want any students to feel singled out which is par for the course in public schools. What's amazing to me is that school students are being vaccinated at all. The risk for the under 30 crowd is miniscule. Especially for young men, the health risks of the vaccine could very well outweigh any good done by getting it.

common sense to some is nonsense to others . Using the phrase to attack opposing ideas is weak . What the buzz words mean is a justification for policies that aren't automatically popular .It assumes that it is a safe no brainer when in fact the issues are much more complicated and controversial . It is a trap that libs use frequently .

In America it has been used frequently since Thomas Paine made a compelling argument for dissolution with the crown .Most usages since are vague ,nonspecific and a ruse to paint issues of great complexity and nuance into simplified arguments designed to pretend to align with the average person.

Yes school is good but there are wider issues, people mixing while drop off/pickup so maybe some children have to be taught to behave, essential lesson best taught in the home

Parents aren’t allowed out of their cars to drop off and pick up their students. Yes, I know that parents should be teaching many things at home, but we have so many only children in Kindergarten. There’s no one to share with until they come to school. Others may have an infant sibling. Kindergarten is crucial for future learning.


I'll repeat ..... the CDC guidelines say that the 'vaxed ' do not need to wear masks . The state of California must be anti-science .

None of my students have vaccines, so there’s no issue with solidarity. Again, California may say masks in schools for whatever reason they come up with. If we can open schools, we will wear masks.

I came back to in-person learning (in the classroom) in February. I teach public school Kindergarten and my students were able to keep their masks on. We washed our hands frequently, did our best to social distance, and no cases of COVID-19. We reopen in early August. California is requiring masks. Am I upset? Honestly, whatever it takes to get the children in school is better than distance learning again. Obviously 4 and 5 year old children cannot be vaccinated at this time. So, we will all wear masks, again. Try teaching 30 littles online— (they take off their clothes, jump on their beds, and play with their toys). They did not learn to share, collaborate, or get enough personal attention online.
If you aren’t a teacher, then you may not understand that we want to be with our students and we will do whatever it takes to be with them in the classroom. If masks are required, so be it.


I understand that you want to be with your kids, and understand the importance of in-person learning, but what about the unions?

What about all the teacher protests against school opening last year?

What about all the lawmakers using the school situation as a tool for more restrictions?

I understand that you want to be with your kids, and understand the importance of in-person learning, but what about the unions?

What about all the teacher protests against school opening last year?

What about all the lawmakers using the school situation as a tool for more restrictions?

The only unions with power are the HUGE school districts. You only see those on TV. We were given 3 choices if we didn’t want to return to school : quit, retire (if that applied), or take an unpaid leave of absence. So, no protests, no media coverage, and with some accommodations, we came back well before the rest of the school districts. Don’t believe the media, we were back at school many months before the big districts.

"Right now, it's about everybody pitching in and overcoming any fears about the vaccine...


Since the beginning of the pandemic, I have been saying the same thing, except, about fears of the Covid-19 virus.

It is clear that lock-downs do not work, closing schools does not work, the policies do not match the science, and have not since the beginning.

Even if they did work, you face a philosophical and ethical dilemma: When is it OK to trade freedom and rights, for safety?

We should quit calling it "common sense" or "safety" or anything the left suggests. It is petty dictator power grabs by those who have the opportunity.

The Failed Experiment of Covid Lockdowns (WSJ) (https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-failed-experiment-of-covid-lockdowns-11599000890)

Lockdowns Do Not Control the Coronavirus: The Evidence(AIER) (https://www.aier.org/article/lockdowns-do-not-control-the-coronavirus-the-evidence/)



No two states have been more different in approaches to fighting coronavirus than California and Florida -- yet both ended up with roughly the same outcome.
https://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2021/02/20/did-lockdowns-work.cnn




...I find no clear association between lockdown policies and mortality development.

-----------------------------------------------------------


Children...have thankfully been largely spared from the direct health effects of COVID-19...[They] are being affected, in particular by the socio-economic impacts and, in some cases, by mitigation measures that may inadvertently do more harm than good.
https://www.un.org/sites/un2.un.org/files/policy_brief_on_covid_impact_on_children_16_april_ 2020.pdf




Currently, the evidence to support national closure of schools to combat COVID-19 is very weak and data from influenza outbreaks suggest that school closures could have relatively small effects on a virus with COVID-19’s high transmissibility and apparent low clinical effect on school children. At the same time, these data also show that school closures can have profound economic and social consequences.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4642(20)30095-X/fulltext




CDC Recommends Closing Schools

Closing schools...may have “some impact” further into community spread, “but that modeling also shows that other mitigation efforts (e.g., hand washing, home isolation) have more impact on both spread of disease and health care measures.”

“In other countries, those places who closed schools … have not had more success in reducing spread than those that did not,” the CDC also pointed out.
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/cdc-recommends-closing-schools-eight-163811736.html




Why did they close the schools?

In the face of increasingly clear research on the impact of school closure, we must seriously consider the question of competing harms. Closures offer uncertain and relatively minor benefits in overall pandemic control, but their harms to children and society at large are known and significant.

Kindergarten is crucial for future learning.That's a pretty fair statement. It is more so for some students than for others. Have you read Meaningful Differences?

That's a pretty fair statement. It is more so for some students than for others. Have you read Meaningful Differences?

Yes, when I was a new teacher. Many studies have been published since then. It will be interesting to see if the gap closes with the new transitional kindergarten starting at age 4 and continuing until Kindergarten.

IN ALL THIS DEBATE ALL I SEE IS A SINGLE MINDED PERSPECTIVE and yes I am using caps to get the point across, the real issue here is that people are dying in large numbers and as a result health initiatives are in place to protect the population. The kids will recover, their education will go on and much can be learned on line. Most kids are on line already even at a young age and learn much so a few weeks or months will be able to be recovered. All the other issues are a side issue gladly seized upon by the anti-vaxers

All the other issues are a side issue gladly seized upon by the anti-vaxers


I'm not an antivaxer. I do think that I have the right to make that decision, however.



IN ALL THIS DEBATE ALL I SEE IS A SINGLE MINDED PERSPECTIVE


I was kind of surprised myself.

It is clear that lock-downs do not work, closing schools does not work, the policies do not match the science, and have not since the beginning.

Even if they did work, you face a philosophical and ethical dilemma: When is it OK to trade freedom and rights, for safety?








You say lockdowns don't work but there is evidence they do, at least in my nation, but for it to work it has to be applied diligently and there in lies the problem. A population can endure a short lockdown, say two weeks, but longer than that and it becomes an enforcement nightmare. Allowing "essential service personnel" to work and move around freely is also a problem unless they are properly designated and controlled. This designation should be constrained to medical workers, supermarket staff, food delivery drivers, utility workers, food processing, plumbers and electricians responding to essential maintenance, service stations. The list is long and not exhaustive and therein lies the problem

You say lockdowns don't work but there is evidence they do, at least in my nation, but for it to work it has to be applied diligently and there in lies the problem. A population can endure a short lockdown, say two weeks, but longer than that and it becomes an enforcement nightmare. Allowing "essential service personnel" to work and move around freely is also a problem unless they are properly designated and controlled. This designation should be constrained to medical workers, supermarket staff, food delivery drivers, utility workers, food processing, plumbers and electricians responding to essential maintenance, service stations. The list is long and not exhaustive and therein lies the problem


So, we should lock-down harder? With a greater thumb on the population? What about all the other nations who don't comply, they will be a threat to you?

The problem is people indeed, and you can't control everybody in everything. How would you do it different to make it work?

The Aussies are sheeple . I am surprised . I thought they were more fiercely independent . Clete you say 'the kids will recover ' but that is far from a given . You say lockdowns work . I say we are trading liberty for safety and we are not guaranteed any safety . We will learn down the road what we have sacrificed in public health ....... and it is clear that the camel has it's nose in the tent and our leaders have gone to school about how much liberty they can take away during any time they declare "crisis " .

if the gap closes with the new transitional kindergarten starting at age 4 and continuing until Kindergarten.The book was not so much about the existence of a gap so much as it was about why the gap existed. I seriously doubt that 30 hours a week of additional schooling will overcome several years of parental problems.


'the kids will recover 'If the kids can indeed "recover", then why bother to have a year of school to begin with? Let's just go to school every other year and count on the kids recovering. It's clearly folly.

The Aussies are sheeple . I am surprised . I thought they were more fiercely independent . Clete you say 'the kids will recover ' but that is far from a given . You say lockdowns work . I say we are trading liberty for safety and we are not guaranteed any safety . We will learn down the road what we have sacrificed in public health ....... and it is clear that the camel has it's nose in the tent and our leaders have gone to school about how much liberty they can take away during any time they declare "crisis " .

Tom we are not sheep, but we have learned to trust the judgement of those we elect because our system is very different to yours. Now these shutdowns are wearing thin but I learned today they were tracing a contact in my own town, so I say anything they can do to keep it confined is acceptable for the moment, however that won't always be so. Those who are leaders will pay at the ballot box

[QUOTE=jlisenbe;3871677]The book was not so much about the existence of a gap so much as it was about why the gap existed. I seriously doubt that 30 hours a week of additional schooling will overcome several years of parental problems.

I know what the book(written a long time ago) talks about. Many families can’t afford preschool. So, allowing students to attend transitional kindergarten beginning at age will help bridge the gap. And for anyone who thinks online learning was successful for Kindergarten, it was not. Most of my students could not hold a pencil, use scissors, write their letters and numbers, etc. I taught summer school just to catch many of them up. Unfortunately, their first grade teachers will need to teach Kindergarten for quite a while when school begins. That being said, some parents worked with their children after Zoom, and they did better than those who were stuck in front of the computer and received no help beyond my class sessions and extra support hours.

I'm not opposed to some sort of targeted pre-school. I am opposed to the idea that schools can just step in and provide that which is not coming from the family. It can help, but it generally does not genuinely "bridge the gap".

I think your observations of online instruction are accurate.


some parents worked with their children after ZoomThe incalculable value of family.

JKP told a whooper of a lie about covid school closures

Press Briefing by Press Secretary Karine Jean-Pierre and Director of the Office of Public Engagement Stephen Benjamin | The White House (https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/press-briefings/2023/08/28/press-briefing-by-press-secretary-karine-jean-pierre-and-director-of-the-office-of-public-engagement-stephen-benjamin/)

She accused Trump for school closures that extended well past the time it was justified to stay closed .

She said when Clueless Joe assumed command "more than 50 percent of schools were shut down because of COVID, because the last administration didn't have a plan—didn't have a comprehensive plan—to deal with COVID and what it was doing to our economy and what it was doing to our kids. And because the president put…schools reopening and businesses reopening and making sure that people got shots in arms, made that a priority, we were able to open up the schools."

Press Briefing by Press Secretary Karine Jean-Pierre and Director of the Office of Public Engagement Stephen Benjamin | The White House (https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/press-briefings/2023/08/28/press-briefing-by-press-secretary-karine-jean-pierre-and-director-of-the-office-of-public-engagement-stephen-benjamin/)

The facts are that the schools are run by states and schools that were closed in January 2021 were closed because Dem Guvs and leaders wanted them to remain closed . It was a policy of choice. Europe was already back to school as were private schools and Repub controlled state's schools .

It is silly to say Trump did not have a plan when he had no power over that call. All Clueless Joe did was find ways to funnel Federal money to Dem states and teacher's unions in those states.

How much ? $1.9 trillion in the American Rescue Plan of which $122 billion went to K-12 schools (on top of the $70 billion in emergency federal school funding those schools had already received), as well as an additional $350 billion to state and local governments.

Even with the $$$$ available for the picking ,AFT President Randi Weingarten bellyached .

Why schools may not fully reopen in the fall (yahoo.com) (https://www.yahoo.com/video/why-schools-may-not-fully-reopen-in-the-fall-150401479.html)

Sadly there are still schools not fully opened ;and with covid as a pretext ;the Dems are planning covid restrictions part deux.