What have we Witnessed?  

By reading and reflecting the scripture, I can be a witness to Christ Jesus in my personal life- yes?



We do not have the same scriptures Jesus had
Jesus 'is' the New Testament. 


And that translation is...?

What's Wrong with using the same one your Church Subscribes too?

If you Don't have the Bible what do you have?

Faith means believing God’s Word. Where is your Faith? I put my Faith in the Bible. Any attempt to refute, would be Contrary to Faith.

P.S. Trying to equate Hell and God's love...come on - Where are you guys coming from?

By reading and reflecting on the scripture, I can be a witness to Christ Jesus in my personal life- yes?
Now, tell us how you would do that.

If you Don't have the Bible what do you have?
My hands to help, my feet to go to those in need, my ears to listen, my voice to encourage, my brain (cognitive function) to assess a situation, my heart full of love for those who are friendless and who need that love.

Faith means believing God’s Word.
No, it doesn't. Try again.

Faith means believing God’s Word.

No, it doesn't. Try again.
Faith means 'believing' and obeying God’s Word.

Is that better?


My hands to help, my feet to go to those in need, my ears to listen, my voice to encourage, my brain (cognitive function) to assess a situation, my heart full of love for those who are friendless and who need that love.



That's a whole lot of you. I really liked,
my heart full of love.


What have we Witnessed...I mean what are we a witness too? 

Now, tell us how you would do that.
By reading and reflecting on the scripture, I can be a witness to Christ Jesus.

Faith means 'believing' and obeying God’s Word?
Believing what? Obeying what?

That's a whole lot of you. I really liked
The life of a Christian. Faith put into action.

What have we Witnessed...
By reading and reflecting on the scripture, I can be a witness to Christ Jesus
To whom would you witness? How would you witness?

(waltero, I thoroughly enjoy reading and thinking about your short answers that go right to the point!)

Believing what?

I believe that the universe was formed at God’s command. I believe that Genesis 1:1 gives to us the origin of the universe: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” Why do I believe that? I believe it by faith because God’s Word says it.
I recognize there are another number of options which I may choose to believe as a relatively rational man, but I, by faith, choose to believe this. If you, of course, want to roam the universe looking for another explanation, then spend your time wisely.

By reading and reflecting on the scripture, I can be a witness to Christ Jesus in my personal life

Now, tell us how you would do that.
By Faith.


If you Don't have the Bible what do you have?

My hands to help, my feet to go to those in need, my ears to listen, my voice to encourage, my brain (cognitive function) to assess a situation, my heart full of love for those who are friendless and who need that love

Are Christians the only ones capable of good deeds? No! Pagans do good deeds. Some of them do very, very good deeds! Some of them do a lot better good deeds than Christians do good deeds. Well then, are pagans accepted by God on the basis of their good deeds? No. So what is it that makes deeds glorify God as opposed to deeds that don’t glorify God? It is that those deeds which glorify God are offered from the hands and lives and lips and feet of those who have been justified by faith, and their deeds are an expression of their acceptance rather than a means to acceptance. Not all good deeds glorify God. And good deeds don’t put us in a right relationship with God.

Do you have two volumes in your life? Do you have a volume that chronicles your life, and you would say, “Here was twenty years, thirty years of my life, and I lived without faith in God at all. And as of this day I began to live with faith in God.” See, faith is a decisive act. You don’t simply drift into it. There has to come a time where you stop believing in yourself and you start believing in God, where you stop depending upon yourself and things you can do to make your acceptance to God, and you say, “I can’t make myself acceptable to God, and therefore, I can’t do anything else other than what the ancients did, and that is take God at his word and regulate my life on the basis of it.”


By reading and reflecting on the scripture, I can be a witness to Christ Jesus in my personal life
The B.I.B.L.E, that's the Life for me.

waltero said: By reading and reflecting on the scripture, I can be a witness to Christ Jesus in my personal life

WG said: Now, tell us how you would do that.


By Faith.
That's doesn't answer my question of "how".


See, faith is a decisive act.
Hmm, I disagree. I found God? Nope, God found me!


Well then, are pagans accepted by God on the basis of their good deeds? No.
I disagree with that too.

That's doesn't answer my question of "how".

Easy, Believe in the Bible. Have Faith that the Bible is the Word of GOD.

Easy, Believe in the Bible. Have Faith that the Bible is the Word of GOD.
No, HOW! How would you be a witness to a stranger? How would you begin? What would you say?

No, HOW! How would you be a witness to a stranger? How would you begin? What would you say?

What are you going on about? I never said Anything of the sort.


witness to Christ Jesus in my personal life

By reading and reflecting the scripture, I can be a witness to Christ Jesus in my personal life- yes?


Luke 24:48  You are witnesses of these things.
He is not Talking about us. Yet we are witnesses...witnesses to what?

Creation is a signpost which sends us forward so that you might be brought to that great signpost which is the cross of the Lord Jesus. And suddenly you realize that your own sin and your own rebellion and your own sense of emptiness is answered there at that cross. And it is in that that we come to a knowledge of the living God which has been intimated in his creation but which has been given fullness in the Scriptures and in Jesus.

What are you going on about? I never said Anything of the sort.

By reading and reflecting the scripture, I can be a witness to Christ Jesus in my personal life- yes?
Would you witness to a stranger at the grocery story? If so, how would you begin a conversation?

By deflecting the Bible your pointed in the Wrong Direction.


Would you witness to a stranger at the grocery story? If so, how would you begin a conversation?

Deja vu


Would you allow the Bible to witness to you?

By deflecting the Bible your pointed in the Wrong Direction.
How am I deflecting?

See, faith is a decisive act.
Hmm, I disagree. I found God? Nope, God found me!

It looks as if you Don't have much to go on.
Faith without doubt, is a decisive act.



How am I deflecting?


By deviating from its intended purpose.
What it means to believe God

The person who earnestly seeks God does not come to God and say, “Now, what kind of God are you?” and “Are you the kind of God that I want to believe in?” and all this kind of stuff. The person who earnestly seeks God says, “O God, you are my God, and I will ever trust you. And step by step I’ll go on from here.” You ever sought God that way?

For Abel, faith meant giving his best to God. For Enoch, it meant considering walking with God the most important thing in his life. And for Noah, it meant that he was concerned for the salvation of his household.

If you want to know why I would believe that, look above.

It looks as if you Don't have much to go on. Faith without doubt, is a decisive act.
I don't understand what you mean.

By deviating from its intended purpose.
What it means to believe God
My question was, now that you believe, would you approach a stranger in a store and tell him/her about your belief? How would you begin such a conversation?


The person who earnestly seeks God does not come to God and say, “Now, what kind of God are you?” and “Are you the kind of God that I want to believe in?” and all this kind of stuff. The person who earnestly seeks God says, “O God, you are my God, and I will ever trust you. And step by step I’ll go on from here.” You ever sought God that way?
I have never sought God. He found me.

For Abel, faith meant giving his best to God. For Enoch, it meant considering walking with God the most important thing in his life. And for Noah, it meant that he was concerned for the salvation of his household.
As do you. As do I.

Faith means believing God’s Word.
No, it doesn't.

As do you. As do I.
How do you figure? Without faith you have nothing.


I have never sought God.
WOW! that explains a lot.

God’s promise may come by way of the cross to the place of freedom, forgiveness, redemption, and safety. But if you would rather stay where you are, you will die in your sins.

How do you figure? Without faith you have nothing.
My faith is in Jesus Christ.


WOW! that explains a lot.
God. Found. ME!!!


God’s promise may come by way of the cross to the place of freedom, forgiveness, redemption, and safety. But if you would rather stay where you are, you will die in your sins.
Jesus died for me and took away my sins.

My faith is in Jesus Christ.
Yet no faith in the Word.

God. Found. ME!!!
The Cross came to you?
God’s promise...may come by way of the cross...But if you would rather stay where you are, you will die in your sins.

Jesus died for me and took away my sins.
That he Did. How did you come to find out about this Jesus...Bible maybe?

Question: How does John 1:14 speak to you? We see that we Have Jesus (but he is away), do we still have the Word? Is the Word Obsolete???

John 1:14 is one of the most important verses in the Bible. It reads: “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.” The Word did not just appear to be human; the Word became flesh.

I suppose a person could say that we believe in the same thing. We Didn't know Jesus. We are not Witnesses. We are witnesses of the Bible and His Word. The Word did not just appear to be human; the Word became flesh...transform yourself into the Word and be reborn. We have the Flesh, we need the Word.


I believe we are witnesses, and we witness to the truth of Scripture. truth revealed in Scripture alone. God’s Word is sufficient and has the highest authority for all of life. Not the Bible and our own little fundamentalist predilections that we like to stick in there. Not the Bible and our own little legalistic tags. Not the Bible and anything at all. Just the Bible. The Bible tells us what the Bible means...not an infusion of God’s enabling power so that we may then work our own way towards a final redemptive conclusion, but the imputation of the righteousness of Christ; a forensic thing, so that it is all outside of me. All of my salvation is outside of me in the ultimate sense.

The Bible is the very breath of the living God; being God’s breath, it is of life and can impart life to us.

Yet no faith in the Word.
Jesus Christ IS the Word!


The Cross came to you...God’s promise...may come by way of the cross...But if you would rather stay where you are, you will die in your sins.
Where do you think I am?


How did you come to find out about this Jesus...Bible maybe?
I'm the first child born to a Lutheran pastor. I was baptized when I was three weeks old. I have spent years being a Lutheran elementary school student, Sunday School student, then later, graduated from a Lutheran college, was a Lutheran elementary school teacher/tutor/sub, a Sunday School teacher, and an adult Bible class teacher.


Question: How does John 1:14 speak to you? We see that we Have Jesus, do we still have the Word? Is the Word Obsolete???
Jesus IS the Word!

Faith means believing God’s Word.
No, it doesn't. Try again.

Then what did you mean by this?

If Jesus is the Word, then how can you have one without the other (your earlier statement, Different thread, contradicted)?

Also: In a different thread, I stated the same thing, and your reply; 'I don't know what that means.'
When you say "Word," I would Guess you're "not" talking about the Bible? If that is the Case, then there is no need for Further discussion. 

So now your going with, 'Jesus IS the Word.' Good. It's a start.

Then what did you mean by this?

waltero said: Faith means believing God’s Word.
WG replied: No, it doesn't. Try again.Our faith isn't in a book of words that has been mistranslated and misinterpreted and misunderstood. Our faith is in Jesus Christ. He said we are to love God and love one another.

Jesus IS the Word!
And what Word is that?


Where do you think I am?
I think you might be in the backyard (field at your Fathers house) With the Older Brother. Still waiting for the father to find you. Your Father found you, why don't you come into the house and Enjoy the party? Your younger brother found the Cross while in a pigsty...Father found (ran too) him while walking on the road.

Is Jesus body here with us, No. Is his Word here with us, Yes.
What do you think you're doing when you speak of his Word as being Corrupted!?!
The Word became Flesh...Literally!!! What else could it mean.

And what Word is that?

You already posted it:
John 1:14 is one of the most important verses in the Bible. It reads: “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.”


I think you might be in the backyard (field at your Fathers house) With the Older Brother. Still waiting for the father to find you. Your Father found you, why don't you come into the house and Enjoy the party? Your younger brother found the Cross while in a pigsty...Father found (ran too) him while walking on the road.
How did you decide that?


What do you think you're doing when you speak of his Word as being Corrupted!?!
The Word became Flesh...Literally!!! What else could it mean.
The Bible (not the Word) has existed for millennia and has been mistranslated, misinterpreted, and misunderstood all that time. Why are there so many Christian denominations? Why are there so many Bible versions? Why are there so many variations in Christian beliefs?

The Word is Jesus, Jesus is the Word (you said it). You can see Jesus throughout the Old Testament. "In the Beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God.
Jesus is the New Testament!

The Old Testament is the Word, The New Testament is the Flesh (if you will).

Both are Waiting For Jesus to come. The Israelites, of the OT are waiting for Jesus to come...We are waiting for Jesus to Return.
The Future and the Past meet...the Word is here...both are waiting for Jesus.
The Bible is Much more than Just a Book!!!

How did you decide that?



I have never sought God. He found me.
You said God found you. God Found the Older Brother as well. God Came out to meet (God found) Both his Son's.
Yet we know which Son Sought after his Father.


Why are there so many Christian denominations? Why are there so many Bible versions? Why are there so many variations in Christian beliefs?

I have  Four Different Translations Of the Bible. If I have a problem understanding, I might grab another translation, with the hope of gaining a better understanding. As Far as Different Beliefs/denominations, I guess it doesn't really matter. It all depends where you're at in Jesus ( For Abel, faith meant giving his best to God. For Enoch, it meant considering walking with God the most important thing in his life. And for Noah, it meant that he was concerned for the salvation of his household). If Food or Speaking in Tongues or Faith healers, In the name of the father...in the name of Jesus etc. Rest assured, there is a Church for you...Jesus has it all...it is all in Jesus.

I came to the Knowledge of Jesus through his Word...that Word, the Bible. 

You said God found you. God Found the Older Brother as well. God Came out to meet (God found) Both his Son's.
Yet we know which Son Sought after his Father.
Are you talking about the story of the prodigal son?

I have Four Different Translations Of the Bible. If I have a problem understanding, I might grab another translation, with the hope of gaining a better understanding. As Far as Different Beliefs/denominations, I guess it doesn't really matter. It all depends where you're at in Jesus ( For Abel, faith meant giving his best to God. For Enoch, it meant considering walking with God the most important thing in his life. And for Noah, it meant that he was concerned for the salvation of his household). If Food or Speaking in Tongues or Faith healers, In the name of the father...in the name of Jesus etc. Rest assured, there is a Church for you...Jesus has it all...it is all in Jesus.

I came to the Knowledge of Jesus through his Word...that Word, the Bible.
Now I understand.

We need constantly to have our minds recalibrated by the Bible if our emotions are not to lead us astray. Jesus takes these emotional, disturbed, vacillating followers of his and turns them to the safeguard of Scripture. Now, is that not right?


“Make the Book live to me, O Lord. Show me yourself within your Word; show me myself, and show me my Savior, and make the Book live to me,” for Jesus’ sake. Amen.

We need constantly to have our minds recalibrated by the Bible if our emotions are not to lead us astray. Jesus takes these emotional, disturbed, vacillating followers of his and turns them to the safeguard of Scripture. Now, is that not right?
How do we accomplish recalibrating our minds by the Bible? Emotions lead us astray how?


“Make the Book live to me, O Lord. Show me yourself within your Word; show me myself, and show me my Savior, and make the Book live to me,” for Jesus’ sake. Amen.
"Live to me" means what? You use phasing that I've never heard before. I gather you do not live in the US, and belong to a fundamentalist Christian group (Pentecostal perhaps?)

How do we accomplish recalibrating

We need constantly to have our minds recalibrated by the Bible

The flesh (as in you and I) needs to die. Jesus takes these fleshly emotional, disturbed, vacillating followers of his and turns them to the safeguard of Scripture.

We are in Desperate need of the work of the Holy Spirit. As we Turn to the Bible, the Feebleness of our own minds, the waywardness of our own thoughts, so many things work against us. Not simply understanding what the Bible says but through the Scriptures, having a life changing encounter with God.


Make the Book live to me.-"Live to me" means what?

The Bible is the very breath of the living God; being God’s breath, it is of life and can impart life to us.

I often repeat what I have posted before. Many articulate people here...I am not.
If I come across as a know it all, it is not my intension. This is more for me. I am gaining a much better understanding, when I write it down. I go to many different Churches. Need to get as much praise and prayer in as Possible. If you Don't walk with God here on Earth, you wont be living with him in Heaven.

having a life changing encounter with God.
I have when I was baptized. No doubts since then.

If I come across as a know it all, it is not my intension.
No, not as a know it all, but as someone who has been brainwashed by televangelists and Pentecostal preachers.

If you Don't walk with God here on Earth, you wont be living with him in Heaven.
"Walking with God" is not praise and prayer. It's something much different.

I have always known the Bible was the literal word of God. When I was on this site a year ago, I read some posts, and it appeared to me that some (unbelievers) were refuting  the Bible. Declared, 'the Bible is Fallible.' Seeing some well educated people denounce the Written Word of God, Perplexed me. It raised some doubt in my mind. I then came to the realization that the Bible was all I have. It is what God placed in my hand, mind and heart. No way would I even begin to think that God would throw a monkey wrench into the mix. God is Perfectly capable of Preserving his Word, aka Bible. I made a conscious decision to believe (Faith) without doubt! And to hear from some crazy people, saying, God destroyed his First mistake...That is just looney!!! Well if that is the case, why shouldn't God Destroy it again? In fact he will...Fear and Tremble baby, it's a comin.


having a life changing encounter with God.-

I have when I was baptized. No doubts since then.

Nothing while searching through the Scriptures?
Your missing out.



brainwashed by televangelists and Pentecostal preachers.

Do you mean, Brainwashed by the Bible. I'll take it.

What's a Televangelist? Would I be needing a TV for that? Maybe I could barrow yours ;-)

The Flesh is weak. Sounds like your feeding something that's supposed to die...Kill the TV (if it were only that easy)!
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith.

Nothing while searching through the Scriptures?
Your missing out.
Like what? The blessing in my life were my parents, especially my father, plus I have always had Christians around me in my life to be sounding boards.

What's a Televangelist? Would I be needing a TV for that? Maybe I could barrow yours ;-) The Flesh is weak. Sounds like your feeding something that's supposed to die...Kill the TV (if it were only that easy)!
I don't watch TV, am too busy interacting with real people.

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith.
How about John 13:34-35? That's my calling in life.

God is non denominational. Religion is the construct of men. Humans are imperfect but they are trying their best...some of them at least.

How about John 13:34-35? That's my calling in life.

That is true. Feel free to pick up on any Scripture that moves you. Be careful when Lambasting the Word (Bible) of God.
I am Truly Happy you found your Calling.

Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.
We are told to make Disciples, not Christians. A disciple is someone who is committed to a journey of learning, service and growth.
I have much to learn...why do some Christians feel the need to burst my Bublé? You can try, it doesn't phase me. Although I do learn more here than elsewhere. I Simply Don't understand why Anybody would try and make a point of it..."A point", trying to prove error in the Word. Take what you believe and run with it. I'm sure you will gain a better understanding sooner or later.


God is non denominational. Religion is the construct of men. Humans are imperfect but they are trying their best...some of them at least.

Humanity is headed for the Grave. There is nothing in, and of themselves that can stop that.

God, is not in the world; the world is in him. The existence of God cannot be demonstrated. For a God whose existence could be demonstrated wouldn’t be a God; he would just be another object in the field of human vision.

The Bible paints a picture. Believe, and you might get a glimpse of that picture. It takes Faith.

By reading and reflecting the scripture, I can be a witness to Christ Jesus in my personal life- yes?

No you can't


By accepting the Scriptures as our only authority in matters of faith and practice...


I disagree with that

And our interpretation of Bible doctrine leads us to believe.


Where do you get that?

The Scriptures of the Old & New Testament as being verbally inspired by God and inerrant and infallible in the original writings, and that they are of supreme and final authority.


Not Possible

What am I missing?

Are we missing anything?

The Scriptures of the Old & New Testament as being verbally inspired by God and inerrant and infallible in the original writings, and that they are of supreme and final authority.

What am I missing?
We don't have the original writings.

What am I missing?


We don't have the original writings...making it null and void!


(Making it null and void)

Correction: 'You' (Faith), don't have the original writings...apply Faith.

Jesus, declares that the Scriptures point to him.

Jesus says the whole Bible is about him. He is not asking us to hijack the text and force him into the pages of the Old Testament. Rather, he simply, humbly, and truthfully says in effect, “Look and see me there! No pressure necessary. You don’t have to read me into the text. Merely read the text and I emerge.” But even after we meet Jesus in the Bible and are converted, we are not finished with his book. Instead, our conversion marks the beginning of a lifetime of going deeper and deeper into the Word of God.


This holds true today as it did yesterday...Jesus said it (his word is true and everlasting)

Or, simply continue using the Bible, in order to refute the Bible...be honest.

We don't have the original writings...making it null and void!
I did NOT say that the Bible is null and void!

For instance, in ancient cultures, male-male sexual interaction in the Bible involved age and/or power differential. The most abrupt change in Bible translations referring to same-sex behavior (using the word "homosexual") happened in the 1946 RSV.


Or, simply continue using the Bible, in order to refute the Bible...be honest.
It's all or nothing for you, isn't it....too bad. God's love for us is bigger than all or nothing.

I did NOT say that the Bible is null and void!

That's what you've been saying all along!



Look at post #35




God's love for us is bigger than all or nothing.


It's ALL JESUS! There is no "us."

That's what you've been saying all along!

Look at post #35
I am not quoted or saying anything in #35. Those quotes are NOT from me!

I am not quoted or saying anything in #35. Those quotes are NOT from me!

The Quotes Don't have to be from you.

I, in effect might be saying that the Bible is our focal point- You, (so it appears) are trying to separate Jesus from the Bible...because the Bible is not the Original manuscript (fallible, corrupted, etc.).

#35 is your entire theme in this thread.
#36 expresses' that.

Your trying to tell me that "we" don't have the Original manuscripts- there is no "We"... it is "you" that doesn't have...

Just as there is no, we, us, you in Jesus...it is only Jesus. it is all Jesus. So where does the Bible come in, if it is all just Jesus (you might ask)? Jesus is the Word of God. The Word was with God. The Word is GOD!
What will prevail? The Word of God or the word of Man? WORD!

The existence of God cannot be demonstrated.

FINALLY! IF I COULD PUT THIS IN RED CAPITAL LETTERS, I WOULD DO JUST THAT. Why did it take you so long?

Let me repeat your words quoted above - "The existence of God cannot be demonstrated."

That is precisely what I posted to start all this. You and others here continually failed to acknowledge the truth of that statement. You constantly went off on what you believe instead of replying to that simple statement. Away for a few days, I return last night and find a smarmy comment from you about my needing two Bibles on my journey. And you have the nerve to criticize others on their language.

You have been exposed, Waldo. Now tell us again how humble you are and how you are learning, blah, blah, blah.

Ah, Glad to see you my friend. I knew when I posted that, that it would open up a new can of worms.

Lets put it in its proper context.

God, is not in the world; the world is in him. The existence of God cannot be demonstrated. For a God whose existence could be demonstrated wouldn’t be a God; he would just be another object in the field of human vision.

This is going to have to be fast, for right now. Give you something to contemplate.


God, is not in the world (Jesus is); the world is in him (Jesus created the world). The existence of God cannot be demonstrated (lets not forget the man Jesus...Gods Son). For a God whose existence could be demonstrated wouldn’t be a God; he would just be another object (Jesus/man) in the field of human vision.

Then of course we can get into the whole Jesus/God thing. Some might not see Jesus, as being 100% Man.

Have to run. Bye, for now.

P.S.
smarmy comment

I deleted that this morning. I tried(couldn't log on) to delete it a few minutes after I wrote it...I was trying to be funny.

I knew when I posted that, that it would open up a new can of worms.

You didn't know anything of the sort. You're backtracking to not look stupid. You failed.



Lets put it in its proper context.

Yeah, let's. Except there is no proper context. Can you read? Understand plain language? You just repeated what you already wrote. You do this all the time. Remember the definition of insanity?


God, is not in the world; the world is in him. The existence of God cannot be demonstrated. For a God whose existence could be demonstrated wouldn’t be a God; he would just be another object in the field of human vision.

I'm glad you got at least this one thing right! You won't admit you got it from me leading you to what should have been obvious, but you did, didn't you? Let's see how truthful you can be.


Then of course we can get into the whole Jesus/God thing.

You are free to get into whatever you so please. You start a thread, others respond. That's how it works.

I say, I say...Simmer down, just simmer down there.

God is non denominational. Religion is the construct of men. Humans are imperfect but they are trying their best...some of them at least.
My Statement was Directed at Tal. Which I perceived as an Atheist.

Context:
The criticism made by atheists that the existence of God cannot be demonstrated is no criticism at all; for a God whose existence could be demonstrated wouldn’t be a God; he would just be another object in the field of human vision.


You won't admit you got it from me leading you to what should have been obvious, but you did, didn't you? Let's see how truthful you can be.
Yes, I did get it from you. I knew exactly what you have been saying. In fact, when I made the statement (after all, I posted it, not you) I had a feeling you might drop in...Truth be told! And here you are...How does a Christian develop an Atheistic point of view as Truth???

This was my quick response.

God, is not in the world (Jesus is); the world is in him (Jesus created the world). The existence of God cannot be demonstrated (lets not forget the man Jesus...God's Son). For a God whose existence could be demonstrated (Jesus) wouldn’t be a God; he would just be another object (Jesus/man/God) in the field of human vision.

Any deity’s existence cannot be objectively proven from man-made schemes of thought and observation.

Difference being Jesus. Jesus being 100% man. Jesus being 100% God. Jesus being 100% Word. For some, Tis hard trying to wrap your mind around.

Point being:
Jesus is not, just another Object...

Jesus is the closest we will ever come to knowing, loving, touching the living God...Did I mention the Word?
I need Faith (where Bible, Jesus comes in)…Better yet, I need Jesus (where the Bible comes in). Even better, I need GOD (where Jesus, Bible, Faith and all of Creation come in to view).


You're backtracking to not look stupid. You failed.
Yah, that ship has already sailed. No need for me to backtrack...ever.

Jesus is the closest we will ever come to knowing, loving, touching the living God...
Are you a Trinitarian? Do you believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three Persons in one God?

Are you a Trinitarian? Do you believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three Persons in one God?
That's what you Got out of all this?

Are you trying to take something away from the fact that God is 100% Man? Exact same Flesh as you and I???

I don't know why you repeated this post. Nervous?


My Statement was Directed at Tal. Which I perceived as an Atheist.

Your perception is abysmal. I've never seen Tal to express atheism. You make wild statements like this frequently. You lose credibility when you do because it reflects on your poor reading comprehension.


that the existence of God cannot be demonstrated is no criticism at all

If you're referring to the topic here, it was never intended as a criticism. That was very obvious. But you missed it. It was intended to show the wrong approach of evangelicals (and some other Christians) to the question of God when these folks tried to PROVE God. God can be believed in, but never proven.


for a God whose existence could be demonstrated wouldn’t be a God; he would just be another object in the field of human vision.

Right. If you had written that in the beginning a lot of unnecessary time and effort would have been saved, not to speak of unChristian dialogue. Since you didn't, it's clear that you needed to think about it before coming to the conclusion you did. That was my intent. It's OK for you to deny that - I understand.


Yes, I did get it from you.

Good. Thank you.


I know exactly what you have been saying.

Not from the beginning - else why not say so?


How does a Christian develop an Atheistic point of view as Truth???

You still don't have it completely thought out. It is a scientific/logical point of view. Atheists can be both as can Christians.


Any deity’s existence cannot be objectively proven from man-made schemes of thought and observation.

Other than the word "scheme", that is correct. "... proven from thought and observation" is better.


Jesus is the closest we will ever come to knowing, loving, touching the living God

You don't KNOW that as a universal fact, but you're free to believe it.

That's what you Got out of all this?

Are you trying to take something away from the fact that God is 100% Man? Exact same Flesh as you and I???
I guess you don't know about the Trinity. Never mind then.

I don't know why you repeated this post. Nervous?
Still learning the Advanced features when editing.


Your perception is abysmal. I've never seen Tal to express atheism. You make wild statements like this frequently. You lose credibility when you do because it reflects on your poor reading comprehension.
Irrelevant.


If you're referring to the topic here, it was never intended as a criticism
But it was, Interjected by you if not Tal.


But you missed it.
Yet here we are.


It was intended to show the wrong approach of evangelicals (and some other Christians) to the question of God when these folks tried to PROVE God.
I had originally Jumped into the middle of the conversation.

To have a fellow believer ask such a question might be misunderstood...if not confusing. That's why I thought you were playing the Devils advocate. Now that I look back on it, it seems to me, you were playing *** advocate (for the sake of argument)?

the wrong approach of evangelicals
Not necessarily a bad thing is it?
living in a world of faith...proof being all around. How does one separate from that?
Some Christians believe Jesus was talking to them, regarding witnesses.




for a God whose existence could be demonstrated wouldn’t be a God; he would just be another object in the field of human vision.
You really owned this!
(Troubling)


You and others here continually failed to acknowledge the truth of that statement
There is no truth in that statement; Jesus/God entered creation? Example: for a God whose existence could be demonstrated (demonstrated by Jesus) wouldn’t be a God.
He is an amazing God!


God can be believed in, but never proven.
Never proven? When might it be proven?
You don't KNOW that as a universal fact, but you're free to believe it.
You don't see the value in prophecy? Why prophecy in the Bible???



Jesus is the closest we will ever come to knowing, loving, touching the living God. You don't KNOW that as a universal fact, but you're free to believe it.
might only be true for some...I'm okay with it.
Come to the end of self, what do you have?
Jesus is everything. I have nothing outside of Jesus.


I guess you don't know about the Trinity
If every time somebody mentions Jesus as being the Son of God or being 100% Human, Only to get a response- he is God. I know the person with that sort of response doesn't have the full knowledge or understanding of the Trinity, the Man Jesus...being 100% man.

I guess you don't know about baby Jesus.

We need Jesus. we need Faith in Jesus. We need put to death self and anything to do with self (aka. flesh).

I'm skipping most of what you wrote. It's redundant and answered previously. Some of it is also confused rambling. You really need to edit your writing, or think before you write.


You don't see the value in prophecy? Why prophecy in the Bible??? Never proven? When might it be proven?

It's not clear what your point is here, if any. But I'll answer what I can. If "value of prophecy" refers to the Bible, then I don't see any value in it. For one thing, how are we to know if it's genuine. It seems to be a postdiction, not a prediction. That's a prophecy after the fact.

A prophecy is only proven when it is yet to happen, and if it actually happens when prophesized. Remember that Bible guy who made headlines prophesizing the second coming a few years ago? One of his followers was right here on this page warning everybody and declaring it was absolutely going to come true. He knew this for a fact, he claimed. Well, the day came and went, and no second coming. That guy disappeared never to be seen nor heard of again. Not even a word of explanation.

You really need to edit your writing, or think before you write.

I really should. I Edit as I go. I spent the last two hours editing...even still.
I'll try to do better.


Some of it is also confused rambling

Hmm, is that only the ones you don't agree with?
And I thought I was doing better.

I really should. I Edit as I go. I spent the last two hours editing...even still.
I'll try to do better.

That's good.


Hmm, is that only the ones you don't agree with?

Obviously not. If you read what I reply to, you would know that.


And I thought I was doing better.

You're erratic. For a while there you were getting better. So better, I assumed you were c/p'ing others.

Still editing (and two more hours). Hope I cleared up a few things.

I assumed you were c/p'ing others

I sometimes take little snippets of what I have read. Is that is OK?


If "value of prophecy" refers to the Bible, then I don't see any value in it. For one thing, how are we to know if it's genuine.

So prophecy has no place in the Bible?



You and others here continually failed to acknowledge the truth of that statement
Should I ask? I'll assume you meant to say argument

Because you really owned that statement (for the sake Of argument).
We know there is no Truth in that statement.

Statement:

for a God whose existence could be demonstrated wouldn’t be a God; he would just be another object in the field of human vision.

Still editing (and two more hours). Hope I cleared up a few things.

Not everything, but keep at it. Practice makes perfect.


I sometimes take little snippets of what I have read. Is that is OK?

That's fine - especially when it helps to clarify.


So prophecy has no place in the Bible?

I didn't say that. (Words in my mouth disease!) I said there's no way of knowing how genuine they are so any value they might have had is lacking for that reason. They have other uses. For example, showing how the later writers went back and inserted "prophecies" they knew had already happened. That's an indication how the writers thought and how they wrote. Today, we wouldn't accept that, but 2,000 years ago it may have been a regular method of writing. I do not know that for a fact. It is only my belief.



Should I ask? I'll assume you meant to say argument

Because you really owned that statement (for the sake Of argument).
We know there is no Truth in that statement.

Statement:
for a God whose existence could be demonstrated wouldn’t be a God; he would just be another object in the field of human vision.

I didn't understand that. If you clarify it, I'll try to give you an answer to the question.

for a God whose existence could be demonstrated wouldn’t be a God; he would just be another object in the field of human vision.
Is this the statement in Question?

There is no truth in that statement?

Yet you expressed:
You and others here continually failed to acknowledge the truth of that statement

So I assumed you were owning it (truth in the eyes of an atheist),for the sake of your argument? while knowing in your heart there is no truth in such a statement,,, Jesus being the defining factor.


for a God whose existence could be demonstrated

We have a God who can be demonstrated. Jesus has done just that. Jesus has proved GOD, outside of faith...Humanity needs to apply Faith in Jesus, before it can prove itself.

That's the Best I can do for right now. I can do better given more time. This is useful too me, keeping my train of thought.
Sometime Walter talk can be well placed. Most the time not.

My Statement was Directed at Tal. Which I perceived as an Atheist.

Context:
The criticism made by atheists that the existence of God cannot be demonstrated is no criticism at all; for a God whose existence could be demonstrated wouldn’t be a God; he would just be another object in the field of human vision.

You would be very wrong on both counts. My faith in the God that I understand is based on a personal relationship, and in addition I am very grateful that God has manifested in my life with numerous blessings.

That's demonstration enough for me. Just saying.

Fm Walter: for a God whose existence could be demonstrated wouldn’t be a God; he would just be another object in the field of human vision.


There is no truth in that statement?

That is the statement I AGREED with.



Yet you expressed:
You and others here continually failed to acknowledge the truth of that statement

I'm acknowledging the TRUTH of that statement! My original position was "There is no evidence proving the existence of God". This was denied by several posts claiming the opposite. From the order in the universe, from Biblical sources, and others. Apparently, you jumped in during the middle of the conversation (your words), so you were NOT involved from the beginning. My apologies - I thought you were.


I might be mixed up, was this the statement in Question?

You're not mixed up. I am.


So I assumed you were owning it (truth in the eyes of an atheist),for the sake of your argument? while knowing in your heart there is no truth in such a statement,,, Jesus being the defining factor.

Now I'm confused all over again! I cannot decipher your meaning here, considering what has transpired. Wanna try again?

Sometimes I think I'm in a Marx Brothers movie.

You would be very wrong on both counts
Noted.

I am very grateful that God has manifested in my life with numerous blessings. 
Same here.

Humans are imperfect but they are trying their best...some of them at least.
I fail to see the relevance.


for a God whose existence could be demonstrated wouldn’t be a God; he would just be another object in the field of human vision.

Isn't this the basis for an atheist point of view???


God whose existence could be demonstrated wouldn’t be a God
I'm confused. Are you saying Jesus hasn't demonstrated? or that Jesus is not God???


It was intended to show the wrong approach of evangelicals (and some other Christians) to the question of God when these folks tried to PROVE God.
Not necessarily a bad thing is it?
living in a world of faith...proof being all around. How does one separate themselves from that?


the wrong approach of
Without faith, it is all wrong.

proof being all around. How does one separate themselves from that?

What proof?

And here we go again.


What proof?
Faith!
Faith is the substance

Faith is the proof...literal Proof!
God calls us to live instead by faith.

And here we go again.


Faith!
Faith is the substance

Faith is the proof...literal Proof!
God calls us to live instead by faith.
That's not proof, waltero.

Isn't that the basis for an atheist point of view???

My understanding of the basis for an atheist point of view is that they deny the existence of God. From that it therefore follows that the existence of God cannot be demonstrated/proven.


I'm confused. Are you saying Jesus hasn't demonstrated? or that Jesus is not God???

The issue never considered anything about Jesus - it was strictly on proving the existence of God. If you want to do Jesus questions, it's best to start a thread to discuss that.


It was intended to show the wrong approach of evangelicals (and some other Christians) to the question of God when these folks tried to PROVE God.


Not necessarily a bad thing is it?

If the intention is to spread God's message, yes it is a bad thing since it is false (as you have demonstrated). In any case, it's falsity alone makes it a bad thing.


living in a world of faith...proof being all around.

Are you now taking back your statement that the existence of God cannot be demonstrated? When your head stops spinning around, let's hope it's facing front.


How does one separate themselves from that?

In a world of faith, why would one want to?


Without faith, it is all wrong.

WHAT is all wrong? Remember, faith is not fact. Belief is not fact-based knowledge.

Remember, faith is not fact.
'Our' faith is grounded in the fact of the resurrection, our faith has to be based on something true or our faith is in vain.


In a world of faith, why would one want to?

According to you, a Christian (you) would have too.
"To show the wrong approach." Involving the question of God when trying to PROVE God.
A person would have to be (temporarily or otherwise) in a world without faith. Having to deny the proof. Proof of Scripture, life of Jesus, Crucifixion of Jesus, resurrection etc. Faith Brings all this to life. Faith is the Idea that comes to life.

Faith needs no basis in fact or truth. That's why it is FAITH.

'Our' faith is grounded in the fact of the resurrection,

No, it is grounded in your BELIEF in the resurrection.


our faith has to be based on something true or our faith is in vain.

Not necessarily. People believe in the darndest things, and it works for them.


According to you, a Christian (you) would have too.
"To show the wrong approach." To the question of God when trying to PROVE God.

Please clarify. Are you no longer editing before you publish?

Please clarify. Are you no longer editing before you publish?
I publish then edit. Here is what I have so far.

According to you, a Christian (you) would have too.
"To show the wrong approach." Involving the question of God when trying to PROVE God.
A person would have to be (temporarily or otherwise) in a world without faith, having to deny the proof. Proof of Scripture, life of Jesus, Crucifixion of Jesus, resurrection etc. Faith Brings all this to life. Faith is the Idea that comes to life.


People believe in the darndest things, and it works for them.

100% true. We both know, there can only be one.

John 20:31 31But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Jesu is the man whose life has been enacted on this human stage, is the Christ, has fulfilled the entire idea of the Messiah and is now the realization.

Add faith to the realization...Realization of the Bible.

I publish then edit.

Proof of Scripture, life of Jesus, Crucifixion of Jesus, resurrection etc.
Edit, then publish! Write short, simple sentences. You get your thoughts all tangled up as you post them. You are trying to sound very spiritually awake but it too often comes out as gibberish.

Scripture is not proof.

I publish then edit.

Nice to know you have a sense of humor. I suspected as much.


"To show the wrong approach." Involving the question of God when trying to PROVE God.
A person would have to be (temporarily or otherwise) in a world without faith, having to deny the proof. Proof of Scripture, life of Jesus, Crucifixion of Jesus, resurrection etc. Faith Brings all this to life. Faith is the Idea that comes to life.

I'm going to take a shot at this. If I'm off base, please set me straight.

Take a Hindu who is deeply religious but doesn't believe in Jesus - Scripture, Crucifixion, Resurrection, etc. - how does she factor into your quote above. Like I said, I may be misreading you. If so, try again.

Scripture is not proof.
Faith in the Scriptures is all the proof I need.
Faith Requires Focus. What are your eyes focused on?
Eliminate the Bible, there is no Jesus.


Edit, then publish!
I do, but then I post and begin to edit, then some more, and a bit more, yet even more. it does get exhausting. But I think I enjoy it and I hope to learn much more.

how does she factor into your quote above.
She doesn't. 

"To show the wrong approach." Involving the question of God. When trying to PROVE God.
A person would have to be (temporarily or otherwise) in a world without faith, having to deny the Faith.

It's more like- how does Athos, factor into the quote above? Yourself being a man of faith...you would have to be Playing (and that's OK) **** advocate???  By adamantly discrediting (Creation, History, Jesus, Crucified, reresection, ascension, book of life, Bible etc.) everything that is taken by faith.

I think the Argument got so heated that we forgot which side we were on. Dangerous for one to shed his faith, for even one second.

Have you ever spoke something into effect, using nothing but faith (doubt doesn't exist)? 

Faith in the Scriptures is all the proof I need.

Good for you. But not good for everyone.



Eliminate the Bible, there is no Jesus.

I would agree, but others here have claimed evidence for Jesus can be found outside the Bible. They never actually showed that evidence.


do, but then I post and begin to edit, then some more, and a bit more, yet even more. it does get exhausting. But I think I enjoy it and I hope to learn much more.

Keep up the good work. We all have trouble navigating a new website. It takes time. You're improving. You'll find this one is excellent with many features. Thanks to owner Roel.

Here's a hint: To get the other person's comments in that gray box beginning with an arrow at top left - click "reply with quote" on the bottom right of his/her message, then decide which part of the quote you want to post, at the beginning of that part type in the paren-type thing at the bottom to the right of the "P", then in caps QUOTE, then at the end that paren-type thing again, only this time the other one at the bottom (like a closed paren) at the end of the part. Then at the end of the quote do the same thing EXCEPT type in forward slash right after the open paren. That tells it to put the part in the gray box. Then continue on with your comments and repeat as needed. When finished, take two aspirin and go to bed. I'll sent the bill in the morning. (I think there's an easier way to do it, but I haven't advanced that far yet).


It's more like- how does Athos, factor into the quote above? Yourself being a man of faith...you would have to be Playing (and that's OK) **** advocate???

I have always been interested in religion and spirituality. To go any further about myself at this time would not be fruitful. I don't think it should matter anyway.


By adamantly discrediting everything that is taken by faith.

I have NEVER discredited anyone's faith. If I see someone with a very bad idea of faith, I will probably point it out. But not discreditly, and certainly not adamantly.


Have you ever willed something into effect with nothing but faith

Nope. Even Superman can't do that.


(doubt doesn't exist)?

Sure, it exists. Some say faith can't exist without doubt. I'm on the fence with that.

I have NEVER discredited anyone's faith.

What I have been trying to say; By adhering to said statement you might be discrediting your own faith.


anything that is taken with faith.
(Creation, life, History, GOD, Jesus, Love, Crucified, reresection, ascension, book of life, science, biology, Bible etc.)

You have denounced (even if for argument sake only)?

What I have been trying to say; By adhering to said statement you might be discrediting your own faith.

You lost me with that one.


You have denounced (even if for argument sake only)?

Ah, Waldo. And you were doing so well up to that craziness. Are you reverting? At this stage, don't stoop to lying - that will leave you without ANY credibility.

As a believer- faith in what?
Or does your faith just appear out of osmosis?
__________________________________________________ _________disregard________________________________ ____________________
I believe in Jesus...show me proof? There is no proof..."does "your" faith count for anything? What of others faith, it plays no role?
It's not "your" faith that counts. Faith doesnt come from you. Why do we have this physical body operating in Gods creation?

I'm trying n g to get at something. I'm on my phone right now, can't type. Ignore most of this. I will edit later.

As a believer- faith in what?
Or does your faith just appear out of osmosis?
__________________________________________________ _________disregard________________________________ ____________________
I believe in Jesus...show me proof? There is no proof..."does "your" faith count for anything? What of others faith, it plays no role?
It's not "your" faith that counts. Faith doesnt come from you. Why do we have this physical body operating in Gods creation?

I'm trying n g to get at something. I'm on my phone right now, can't type. Ignore most of this. I will edit later.

Consider it ignored. I have no idea what you're trying to say. Keep it simple.

What it means to believe God
It means you have a fine start in learning about the universe and where you fit in on this journey of finding understanding of what we call life.

What it means to believe God
It means you have a fine start in learning about the universe and where you fit in on this journey of finding understanding of what we call life.
And how to relate to God's creation, the environment, animals, and especially to other people.

What it means to believe God


It means you have a fine start in learning about the universe and where you fit in on this journey of finding understanding of what we call life.


Posted by WG
And how to relate to God's creation, the environment, animals, and especially to other people.

Both good answers - both work for me. I hope you appreciate them, too, Walter.

Two of the most loving and giving people I know are Sikhs:

There is only one God
God is without form, or gender
Everyone has direct access to God
Everyone is equal before God
A good life is lived as part of a community, by living honestly and caring for others

(Sound familiar, all you Christians?)

It was intended to show the wrong approach of evangelicals (and some other Christians)
You are trying to make a case rather than someone seeking to establish the truth- yes?


God’s existence cannot be proven with certainty
In your mind this is 100% true...no doubt what so ever?  

Athos said: God’s existence cannot be proven with certainty

In your mind this is 100% true...no doubt what so ever?
waltero, please prove God's existence.

waltero, please prove God's existence.
That's all too easy.
GOD says it, I believe it.


wrong approach of evangelicals (and some other Christians).
Do you mean approaching it with a childlike faith...If you can't do it in faith - if you can't do it in confidence - don't do it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaM9J2VHLf8

All that [is] not of faith is sin.

That's all too easy.
GOD says it, I believe it.
God whispered in your ear? "God says it" is not proof. It's faith. Belief is faith, not proof.

WG, as far as I can tell you seem to believe in God. Why do you believe?

WG, as far as I can tell you seem to believe in God. Why do you believe?
Why? because He has been with me throughout my life, has loved me and taken care of me and led me into very personally satisfying careers and connections where I am able to, with His guidance and support, help others feel better about themselves and also come to love and thank Him.

Do you have evidence outside of your own personal experience? Just asking.

I'll even tell you why I ask. If a person can appeal to nothing outside of personal experience, then he/she has no real answer if a second person comes along and says, "I don't believe in God because He has never been with me throughout my life. I don't believe he has loved me and taken care of me. I found very personally satisfying careers and connections completely on my own with no need for his help. I have been able to accomplish many wonderful things in my life all on my own, so I know there is no god and thus I have no need to love or thank Him." Aside from suggesting your own personal experience is somehow more valid or accurate than his or hers, there is no other direction to go in.

Do you have evidence outside of your own personal experience? Just asking.
Of course I do! My eyes and my mind and my heart have always been wide open to others' experiences and opinions. E.g., my Wiccan trans woman friend says pretty much what you quoted above.

As I said earlier, I am able to, with His guidance and support, help others feel better about themselves and also come to love and thank Him.

As I said earlier, I am able to, with His guidance and support, help others feel better about themselves and also come to love and thank Him.

You split an infinitive. I'm reporting you.

You split an infinitive. I'm reporting you.
I went back and changed it from unsplit to split, hoping you would amble past and notice.

I went back and changed it from unsplit to split, hoping you would amble past and notice.

WOW - you are one tricky Christian!!

Of course I do!Not sure what you are referring to. If you mean the personal experiences of others, then you are still have the same dilemma. Your friend, for instance, if she would say my quote from above, is saying there is no God. So does it all come down to, in your view, personal opinion?

So in other words, do you see any reason to believe in God other than the personal experiences and opinions of people?

Not sure what you are referring to. If you mean the personal experiences of others, then you are still have the same dilemma. Your friend, for instance, if she would say my quote from above, is saying there is no God. So does it all come down to, in your view, personal opinion?

So in other words, do you see any reason to believe in God other than the personal experiences and opinions of people?
As I posted earlier, "because He has been with me throughout my life, has loved me and taken care of me and led me into very personally satisfying careers..."

The promises in the Bible are fulfilled as we live our lives. Read Psalm 23.

Never mind.

Never mind.
Don't go there!

You don't understand the question. It's OK.

You don't understand the question. It's OK.
Then restate it in clear English -- simply stated, not convoluted.

The promises in the Bible are fulfilled as we live our lives.

I think is what you meant to say; The promises in the Bible are fulfilled as we live Gods Word (a Godly life, the life of Jesus)

Your Welcome ;-)

As I posted earlier, "because He has been with me throughout my life, has loved me and taken care of me and led me into very personally satisfying careers..."There was nothing not in clear English or "convoluted" the first time, but I will give it another shot. Those are all personal experiences. That's fine, but do you see any evidence for God outside of your personal experiences or the personal experiences of others?


The promises in the Bible are fulfilled as we live our lives. Read Psalm 23.You would refer to this as "cherry-picking" if I had posted it. But if you believe Psalm 23, why don't you believe the words of Jesus in this passage from John 3? "32 He (Jesus) testifies to what he has seen and heard, and yet no one accepts his testimony. 33 The one who has accepted his testimony has affirmed that God is true. 34 For the one whom God sent speaks God’s words, since he gives the Spirit without measure. 35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hands. 36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who rejects the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him."

Those are all personal experiences. That's fine, but do you see any evidence for God outside of your personal experiences or the personal experiences of others?
If I see it, feel it, taste it, hear it, smell it, it's part of my personal experiences. What else is there?

You would refer to this as "cherry-picking" if I had posted it.
I did that on purpose, knowing you'd understand.

But if you believe Psalm 23, why don't you believe the words of Jesus in this passage from John 3? "32 He (Jesus) testifies to what he has seen and heard, and yet no one accepts his testimony. 33 The one who has accepted his testimony has affirmed that God is true. 34 For the one whom God sent speaks God’s words, since he gives the Spirit without measure. 35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hands. 36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who rejects the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him."
I don't???

If I see it, feel it, taste it, hear it, smell it, it's part of my personal experiences.Like I said. You don't understand the question.


I don't???You do believe in the wrath of God? Well then, that's quite a change.

Like I said. You don't understand the question.
Like I said, state it so I do.

You do believe in the wrath of God? Well then, that's quite a change.
Read the OT.

Like I said, state it so I do.

Nah. Ponder it until you get it. It's not difficult.

I'm just glad to see you accept the John 3 passage. That's real progress.

Nah. Ponder it until you get it. It's not difficult.
An educator refuses to simplify?

I'm just glad to see you accept the John 3 passage. That's real progress.
Jesus changes everything regarding God's wrath.

An educator refuses to simplify?
An educator knows where the problem really lies.


Jesus changes everything regarding God's wrath.So Jesus changed everything regarding the wrath that same Jesus spoke of in John 3. Got it! In your view, He was lying.

In my view, He perfectly tells anyone who really wants to understand HOW things changed. "The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who rejects the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him." It is a message repeated over and over again in the NT. You don't accept that because it doesn't agree with the fantasy gospel you have invented to replace the real thing.

You don't accept that because it doesn't agree with the fantasy gospel you have invented to replace the real thing.
And you want all those "others" whom you don't like to go to hell, so you and the other 874 REAL Christians can enjoy heavenly bliss.

What a silly response. It has nothing to do with what I want. I'm telling you the words of Jesus. First you believe them, but now you don't. It's a very clear passage that you simply have chosen not to believe. You prefer your fantasies.

What a silly response. It has nothing to do with what I want.

It has everything to do with what you want. Calling it silly doesn't change the reality.


the one who rejects the Son will not see life;

Wow - you've sure softened what you used to say - that those who reject Jesus will spend eternity in hell being tortured every moment for all eternity. Kind of sick when you read it that way, isn't it?

You continue to rant and rave, but you don't disagree with me; you disagree with Jesus. You're not mad at me; you're mad at Jesus. I didn't give you my view, but His very clear statement.

It's not up to me, and my opinions matter no more than your's. Your fantasy gospel has no validity. The true Gospel is the one found in the Bible. If you won't believe Jesus (and clearly you don't), then you will have to believe something else.

This is the consistent testimony of the NT. There are literally dozens of other passages that essentially say the same thing. "The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who rejects the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him." A person can believe Jesus and the NT, or the person can believe his/her own preconceived notions. Your choice.

Just bear in mind that I'm not telling you anything. I'm just quoting the Bible.

Just bear in mind that I'm not telling you anything. I'm just quoting the Bible.

That's the problem in your very own words. You nailed it!

You can't put anything in your own words - you refer the reader to a book. Yet, when others refer you to read a link on the net, you refuse.

No, my argument is not with Jesus - it's with you. You're not man enough to admit it. You want the Bible to do your talking. I've already pointed out your misinterpretation of the Bible. Maybe one of these days, you'll listen. God gave you a brain - use it.

Nah. It’s with Jesus. You don’t believe His words and I'm just quoting Him. For instance, "I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”

"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

"This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil."

Nah. It’s with Jesus. You don’t believe His words and I'm just quoting Him. For instance, "I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”

"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

"This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil."

Ah, took you long enough to do the threats. That is what your type of religion loves. Condemning others to an eternity of torture. That is your revenge for your station in life. You can't win in this life, so you'll win in the next life by sending all whom you envy to hell. It's soul-satisfying and very convenient when you gather with other evangelicals of like mind.

Athos basically wrote, "Dear Jesus, Ah, took you long enough to do the threats. That is what your type of religion loves. Condemning others to an eternity of torture. That is your revenge for your station in life. You can't win in this life, so you'll win in the next life by sending all whom you envy to hell. It's soul-satisfying and very convenient when you gather with other evangelicals of like mind."

You and I just see this differently. You read those statements of Christ, and you seem to think only of hell and judgement, and then you get mad about it. I read them, and I am amazed at the love of God for lost sinners like the two of us. He sent His only Son, the Lord of glory, to take our place so we could have our sins forgiven and walk with God by virtue of having repented and put our faith in the worth and faithfulness of Jesus. It's a glorious message to me, and it's a glorious message to anyone willing to accept it.

Pretty pompous making a rejection of you JL, into a rejection of Jesus!

making a rejection of you JL into a rejection of Jesus.
Ah, right out of the scriptures. Pretty much an exact quote...now your getting it.

you can't win in this life
What is it you think you win "in this life"? There are no winners, all is lost. Seek the kingdom of God and get out of here before it is too late. If you don't grab the lifeboat now you will be forever lost in a World without God.

so you'll win in the next life
This life, the next life, what are you going on about? There is only "ONE" life.

Athos basically wrote, "Dear Jesus, Ah, took you long enough to do the threats. That is what your type of religion loves. Condemning others to an eternity of torture. That is your revenge for your station in life. You can't win in this life, so you'll win in the next life by sending all whom you envy to hell. It's soul-satisfying and very convenient when you gather with other evangelicals of like mind."

Thank you, thank you, Jl. I can't thank you enough.

Changing my criticism of YOU into criticism of Jesus is the very best thing you've ever done here to reveal how your mind is so skewed into revenge and hate that every person who ever reads your comment will immediately see what you've done and reject whatever else you have to say.

It's your death knell here, Jl, and you have only yourself to blame. Poetic justice.

anyone willing to accept it.
We don't accept it on our own--we can accept it only with the Holy Spirit's help. We ourselves, on our own, can only refuse it

This life, the next life, what are you going on about? There is only "ONE" life.

Give it up, Waldo. The conversation here is way over your head.

give it up Waldo
This thread was posted under Christian religion.
You come up with: "you can't win in this life, so you'll win in the next"is life"

Is that "what it means to believe God"?


Leads me to believe, you might have jumped into a subject matter that you don't understand...what are you afraid of?

This thread was posted under Christian religion.
You come up with "you can't win in this life, so you'll win in the next"is life"


Seems to me you jumped into a subject matter that you don't understand...what are you afraid of?

Waldo, believe me. Have I ever lied to you? This reply of yours above simply emphasizes your being way over your head. If you enjoy playing the fool, then go to it.

Here you go Athos, I'll post the Topic once more.


What it means to believe God
What have we Witnessed?

By reading and reflecting the scripture, I can be a witness to Christ Jesus in my personal life- yes?

Here you go Athos, I'll post the Topic once more.

Answered - Here's where -- post #s 42,44,49,52,58,56,59,64,67,70,72,74,76,79,118, and 120.

If you can't get what you're lookin for in all those posts, there's no hope for you.

What it means to believe IN God
What have we witnessed?

By reading and reflecting ON the
Scriptures, I can be a witness to Christ Jesus in my personal life - yes?
WG replies: Simply reading and reflecting on the Scriptures isn't enough to be a witness. As we well know, our Old Adam is always very present to twist and mangle the words in the Bible. That's why I asked you to list your beliefs in 1, 2, 3 order snd state them in short, simple sentences.

It's your death knell here, Jl, and you have only yourself to blame.Wow! That was really impressive. It has to be one of the best Darth Vader impressions I've ever seen. "Luke! Your post has disgraced you. It has become your death knell. Luke! Bewaarreee of the DEATH STAR."

On a serious note, when I post the words of Jesus, you can accept them, reject them, or whatever, but however you respond, your response is to Him and not to me. My post was entirely accurate.

Here are some others to ponder.

24 “Truly I tell you, anyone who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not come under judgment but has passed from death to life.25 “Truly I tell you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Nevertheless, I am telling you the truth. It is for your benefit that I go away, because if I don’t go away the Counselor will not come to you. If I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will convict the world about sin, righteousness, and judgment: 9 About sin, because they do not believe in me;


We don't accept it on our own--we can accept it only with the Holy Spirit's help. We ourselves, on our own, can only refuse it.Accept or refuse what?

Accept or refuse what?
I was responding to YOUR comment: "It's a glorious message to me, and it's a glorious message to anyone willing to accept it."

Remember, we can accept it only with the Holy Spirit's help.

So you do agree that the message of the Gospel has to be accepted, and that some people reject it?

As we well know, our Old Adam is always very present to twist and mangle the words in the Bible.
True, myself included. I get it, your saying- the Bible can't be trusted.
Sake of argument: (spiritual life)
You say- God is the highest life- Man is the Center life- Bible is the lower life.
If the spiritual faculty, whose proper work it is to give light, be itself diseased—if it discerns not singly but doubly, and therefore dimly—then the whole life also is shrouded in gloom. If that is the case with the higher life (man), what will be the state of the lower(Bible)! 

So we have
God- Bible- Man,
Mans life is the only life shrouded in darkness...If the light that is in man be darkness, the darkness how great will it be!”
You must believe that God is in charge, he has provided us with his Word, fully intact and true. Man Cannot Corrupt Gods Word!

Besides, there is absolutely no reason to believe the words of the Bible have been "mangled". The evidence points very strongly in the other direction.

So you do agree that the message of the Gospel has to be accepted, and that some people reject it?
I agree that the Holy Spirit works faith in us and some people reject it.

What happens to those who reject it?

True, myself included. I get it
Noooooo! You DON'T get it! You always get your thoughts and then your sentences all tangled up. Keep it simple! Freud would call it "flight of ideas".


What happens to those who reject it?
We are always on the prowl (lookout) for them to show them our love and, through that love, witness to them.

Either you believe in the Bible or you don't. Why would anybody pretend to believe in something that was created by man?
Well, yah know, God meant well by giving us this Book. But like always man Screws it up. Please. What God is it that you desire?

your saying- the Bible can't be trusted.That is precisely what she is saying. "twisted and mangled"

I still wonder what you believe happens to those who reject the Gospel message.

That is precisely what she is saying. "twisted and mangled"
I said, "our Old Adam is always very present to twist and mangle the words in the Bible."

Yes. The words of the Bible have been, in your view, twisted and mangled, and are thus unreliable. What other meaning can come from such a statement?

What happens to those who reject the Gospel?

Wow! That was really impressive. It has to be one of the best Darth Vader impressions I've ever seen.

Thank you. I do my best.


When I post the words of Jesus, you can accept them, reject them, or whatever, but however you respond, your response is to Him and not to me.

That would be true IF those were actually the words of Jesus. Some may be, some may not be. In any case, ALL those quotes are COPIES of what a writer put on paper (parchment?) 1700+ years ago. Jesus lived three centuries before that.


My post was entirely accurate.

Your post was grossly INaccurate. It was only to relieve yourself of the responsibility of answering in your own words. Your reliance on a book is robotic. When someone disputes a passage from a book, you don't tell the person to go argue with the author, you present your position in your own words.


"It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Do you think Jesus will send to hell those sinners who do not hear the call? Your own words, please.


“Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

How have you changed and become like a little child?


Nevertheless, I am telling you the truth. It is for your benefit that I go away, because if I don’t go away the Counselor will not come to you.

Mysterious words. Why will the Counselor not come if Jesus does not go away? Answer only if you can. No pressure. I don't expect you to unravel every mystery in the Gospels.

I said, "our Old Adam is always very present to twist and mangle the words in the Bible."
We heard you the first time. You have stated in the past "The bible (in itself) has been corrupted." So be it, no biggie. Believe what you will. You should know that the Bible is the Word of God. If you read it and believe in it, then it will spring to life in your mortal body. Hence the Living Word.

It was only to relieve yourself of the responsibility of answering in your own words. Earth to Athos. They were not my words. But even at that, why would you want my words when you have the words of Jesus? If you don't accept what Jesus said, why would you want to know my views?


Your reliance on a book is robotic. When someone disputes a passage from a book, you don't tell the person to go argue with the author, you present your position in your own words.You haven't disputed a passage. You simply don't like them. It's not the same thing. Besides, do you really intend to argue with Jesus? Really?


Do you think Jesus will send to hell those sinners who do not hear the call? Your own words, please.

It makes no difference what I think. You have the words of Christ. Why would you want mine?


How have you changed and become like a little child?He is speaking of the trusting disposition of a little child.

You have stated in the past "The bible (in itself) has been corrupted." So be it, no biggie. Believe what you will. You should know that the Bible is the Word of God. If you read it and believe in it, then it will spring to life in your mortal body.
So you believe the Bible has remained EXACTLY as it was when holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost? (2 Peter 1:21)

So you believe the Bible has remained EXACTLY as it was when holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost? (2 Peter 1:21)
It will bring life. It has so much more 'meaning. It can be nothing other that the work of God.
If it was at all the work of God, it would still remain the work of God. It's not a game of hide and seek.


holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost?

It's not only when they spoke, it is their Walk there entire life that is in the Bible.

So you believe the Bible has remained EXACTLY as it was when holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost? (2 Peter 1:21)Now THAT is a great, great question. It is most almost certainly not EXACTLY as it was when written. Has it been twisted and mangled? There is no evidence of that. The evidence shows that the Bible has been changed largely in terms of spelling and grammar which basically amounts to nothing. The estimates I see is that the Bible is over 99% accurate and that no major doctrines of the Bible have been effected by whatever relatively minor changes have taken place.

It will bring life. It has so much more 'meaning. It can be nothing other that the work of God.
If it was at all the work of God, it would still remain the work of God.
So over the millennia, there have been no mistranslations, misunderstandings of words and terms and cultural references as the Bible has been translated from Hebrew and Greek to the English versions (note: VERSIONS) we have now?

Earth to Athos. They were not my words.

Duh. Yes, I know. That is my point!


even at that, why would you want my words when you have the words of Jesus?

Answered above. Again: That would be true IF those were actually the words of Jesus. Some may be, some may not be. In any case, ALL those quotes are COPIES of what a writer put on paper (parchment?) 1700+ years ago. Jesus lived three centuries before that. That's why I want your words for your own belief.


If you don't accept what Jesus said,

Please stop misquoting me. I never said I don't accept what Jesus said. I clearly said that what you read in the Bible (probably KJV in dated English) has been misinterpreted by you.


why would you want to know my views?

Good question. I really don't - I already know them. I just want to see you own up to them without hiding behind the skirts of a book. (Bad metaphor, I know).


You haven't disputed a passage.

How soon they forget!


Why would you want mine?

To help you see the error of your ways. Putting things in your own words helps to understand what you're quoting from a book.


He is speaking of the trusting disposition of a little child.

The question is - How have YOU become like a little child?

Let us say there has been variants imposed into the Bible. If that is so, God will honor them. Remember, it was never God's intent for Israel to have a King. And if you look at history man has always interpreted The bible incorrectly. It still works. 


P.S. Can I assume Athos is still going on about that 'Hell' thing?
Man Alive, He really doesn't like Hell! Strange, for a fellow that doesn't believe Hell exists. But hey, let him have his fun while it lasts. @Athos, No worries Athos, you ain't a gonna end up in Hell. I have a feeling Jesus has better plan for you.

Let us say there has been variants imposed into the Bible. If that is so, God will honor them. Remember, it was never God's intent for Israel to have a King. And if you look at history man has always interpreted The bible incorrectly. It still works.
Why do you think there are so many Christian denominations? Each has its own favorite beliefs somewhat different from the others' beliefs. Would you be comfortable in a Mormon church? a Lutheran church? (even different beliefs in those) a Catholic church? a Pentecostal church?

And if you look at history man has always interpreted The bible incorrectly.

You're digging that ditch deeper and deeper. You'll never be able to crawl out of it.


It still works.

As far as I know, no one here has denied that the Bible is a"good book". It's even called that as a title!



Can I assume Athos is still going on about that 'Hell' thing?

Easy enough to find out, Waldo. Just read my posts. If you don't read, you'll never know.


He really doesn't like Hell!

Do you like hell, walter? What is it you like?


Strange for a fellow that doesn't believe it exists.

Why is it strange? Would you be silent if you discovered others were preaching to children that horrible eternal torture awaits them if they don't believe in Jesus? Describing that torture? Is that your idea of fun?

For once, how about answering the question? You have a tendency to run away when things get difficult for you.

And if you look at history man has always interpreted The bible incorrectly.
In the same sense that Jesus, Disciples Didn't know what he was talking about.

Just read my posts. If you don't read, you'll never know.
I honestly tried, I could not figure out what you were going on about. I sensed a Hellish overtone from what I did read.

Do you like hell,
Honestly, I Don't really think about it.

You have a tendency to run away
I've been here all day.

You have a tendency to run away


I've been here all day.That's so funny. Athos is the one who disappears for days at a time. Strange, indeed.

So over the millennia, there have been no mistranslations, misunderstandings of words and terms and cultural references as the Bible has been translated from Hebrew and Greek to the English versions (note: VERSIONS) we have now?Of course there have been, but it is just silly to speaking of "twisted and mangled". The two are worlds apart.

I honestly tried, I could not figure out what you were going on about.

If you're being honest, which I highly doubt, and you could not read what I wrote, then you've got a bigger problem than I thought. Anyone may disagree with WHAT I write, and some do, but they cannot complain HOW I write since my posts, like the others here, are coherent and properly constructed. Something that cannot be said for how YOU write.


Honestly, I Don't really think about it.

Then why make an issue of it?


I've been here all day.

That's not an answer, Waldo. Can you explain WHY you can't or won't answer that question?


That's so funny. Athos is the one who disappears for days at a time. Strange, indeed.

You're full of merde, Jl. That's French for sh*t.

I seem to remember you disappearing for a month or so, n'est pas?

I seem to remember you disappearing for a month or so, n'est pas?Tell you what. I'll point out the next time you disappear so we can all note it. It won't be long. And if you are going to call Walter "Waldo", then please don't whine anymore about some imaginary episode of me calling you names. That is really muet.

Tell you what. I'll point out the next time you disappear so we can all note it.
We don't have lives and responsibilities? You disappear during the afternoons and on Sundays.

you could not read what I wroteNo, it's more like I could not look at it anymore. You can't seem to let it go. So I glanced over a few fragments and I could only guess what you were yammering about. 

Then why make an issue of it?Huh? ya that was me.
Can you explain WHY you can't or won't answer that question?hmm, what was the question? As far as I knew you were done.
That's so funny. Athos is the one who disappears for days at a time. Strange, indeed.
Not all that Strange. I have noticed- that's his MO. He's all too predictable really.

Tell you what. I'll point out the next time you disappear so we can all note it. It won't be long. And if you are going to call Walter "Waldo", then please don't whine anymore about some imaginary episode of me calling you names. That is really muet.

Tell you what - shove it where the sun don't shine. You didn't explain your month absence. Or was it longer than that? Waldo can speak for himself. He sure as hell doesn't need you to do it for him.

Your nastiness is hardly imaginary. Don't forget, you're on record here - permanent record. Ask not for whom the death knell tolls - it tolls for thee.

Muet? You got me there.

So I glanced over a few fragments and I could only guess what you were yammering about.

Ah, there's the problem. You guessed at what I wrote. You have a habit of inadvertently writing what you don't want anyone to know. Keep doing it. Your subconscious at work. It helps all of us to see into your soul.


hmm, what was the question?

Here it is -

"Would you be silent if you discovered others were preaching to children that horrible eternal torture awaits them if they don't believe in Jesus? Describing that torture? Is that your idea of fun?"

Tell you what - shove it where the sun don't shine. You didn't explain your month absence. Or was it longer than that? Waldo can speak for himself. He sure as hell doesn't need you to do it for him.

Your nastiness is hardly imaginary. Don't forget, you're on record here - permanent record. Ask not for whom the death knell tolls - it tolls for thee.Oh calm down. The world has not come to an end, not even for Darth Vader. "Luke! You are on permanent record here, Luke. Permanent as in forever and ever and ever, and then even longer than that. Keep your light saber near you at all times, Luke, for the death star tolls for thee!"

Oh calm down. The world has not come to an end, not even for Darth Vader. "Luke! You are on permanent record here, Luke. Permanent as in forever and ever and ever, and then even longer than that. Keep your light saber near you at all times, Luke, for the death star tolls for thee!"

Nice try, but weak. You just ain't got it.

You guessed at what I wrote.
You really have to drop it down a notch or two, your not thinking strait.
What has gotten you so frazzled? I viewed a few scathing posts and I didn't look any further. I assumed you were referring to the Hell thingy.
I P.S.st in one of my posts. I wasn't really expecting getting a response from you (as far as I knew, you were done talking to me).
It turns out my hunch was right- you were making reference to the Hell thingy...why would I want to read any further. It was clear you were upset. You dislike it when Christians preach Hellfire and brimstone. I'm not a fan either.


Would you be silent if you discovered others were preaching to children that horrible eternal torture awaits them if they don't believe in Jesus?

Ah, you've been to a Catholic School?

You really have to drop it down a notch or two, your not thinking strait.

Rather than accuse me of not thinking straight, why don't you say exactly what it is? There's a word for what you are doing.


I viewed a few scathing posts and I didn't look any further

Why do you bother at all if you won't read what I write? I'm feeding you so you can continue to play the troll. But you're starting to bore me. The lack of content, etc.


I assumed you were referring to the Hell thingy.

Here you are making assumptions after just admitting you won't read the posts. ?????????????


you were making reference to the Hell thingy...why would I want to read any further.

Because you're here on this website posting what you won't do? Why are you here then?


It was clear you were upset.

interesting that you keep saying I am "upset" or "frazzled" or something else. You must be getting that from your partner in crime.


You dislike it when Christians preach Hellfire and brimstone.

Gee, ya think?


I'm not a fan either.

You could have fooled me.


Would you be silent if you discovered others were preaching to children that horrible eternal torture awaits them if they don't believe in Jesus?


Ah, you've been to a Catholic School?

What does THAT mean? As far as I know, Catholics believe in hell. Do you claim they don't?

More importantly, why didn't you answer the question?

Would you be silent if you discovered others were preaching to children that horrible eternal torture awaits them if they don't believe in Jesus?
Why are you trying to drag me into your little spat with JL. I'm staying out of it.

Ah, you've been to a Catholic School? Didn't mean anything other than I find most people with this sort of frustration have come from a Catholic School.

Why are you trying to drag me into your little spat with JL. I'm staying out of it.

You asked me why I don't believe in hell. I answered and asked you the same question. You evaded the question several times and now your evasion is "a spat with Jl".


Didn't mean anything other than I find most people with this sort of frustration have come from a Catholic School.

Are you referring to your frustration? I didn't think you came from a Catholic school. I could be wrong. Do Catholics have a frustration you encountered?

Nice try, but weak. You just ain't got it. Well shucks. It's a less entertaining site when you lose your DV persona.

why don't you say exactly what it is?

If you really want me too-  You should first understand; "God’s wrath does not contradict His love.
Denial of God’s just punishment of sin will only ensure that one experiences it.

Would anybody choose hell rather than heaven? Yes. Why? Pride.

Denial of God’s just punishment of sin will only ensure that one experiences it.Sad but true.

Many people have a relationship with God that is based on something you might not understand.
A necessity that most people don't want to Understand or Accept. 

If you really want me too- You should first understand; "God’s wrath does not contradict His love.

The question was about hell, not God's wrath (although the two can be connected which I assume is your point without actually saying so).


Denial of God’s just punishment of sin will only ensure that one experiences it.

Nonsense.


Would anybody choose hell rather than heaven? Yes. Why? Pride.

Stop skating around the question. It's not about choosing hell, it's about God sending people to hell who don't believe in Jesus. Ask yourself "Why am I evading the question?"



Many people have a relationship with God that is based on something you might not understand.
A necessity that most people don't want to Understand or Accept.

"Most people" don't want to understand? Most people? But you are one of the privileged few? I would ask you to explain yourself but I know you won't.

More scripture to ponder.

47 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.” 40 Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, “What? Are we blind too?” 41 Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish;

This also comes from the Apostle's Creed which Wondergirl has agreed is correct. "The third day he rose from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty;from thence he shall come to judge the quick (living) and the dead.

Now of course there are those here who will look at text after text after text after text after text after text and come to the foolish conclusion that it's all just "cherry picking", "misrepresentation", or "Bible Bingo".

from thence he shall come to judge the quick (living) and the dead.
No mention of hell.

No mention of hell.Well, Jesus mentioned hell many, many times, most notably in Matthew 25, and you have chosen to ignore His views since they don't agree with yours, so I don't really know what it would take to convince you. I guess if Obama came out and agreed with the Mt. 25 passage, then maybe you would take his word for it.

Well, Jesus mentioned hell many, many times
Why isn't hell mentioned in the Apostles Creed?

Athos has already tried to school you on Jesus' use of the word "hell". Were you busy sending Facebook messages to Suzy again? You really, really want people you hate to burn forever, doncha!

Anyone who thinks Jesus was referring to the garbage dump as being eternal is a complete loon. Your remaining comments are sixth grade level drivel from someone who cannot defend her position or even articulate what it is.

I will simply add again, for the five hundredth time, that I am simply posting the words of Christ. You seem to have no interest in them. You never quote Him. In reply, all we get is ridiculous nonsense about facebooking and wanting people to burn in hell. You know what I want? I want you to act like a grown up and give a reasoned response to those scriptures, but I have no hope for that at all.

Nobody here is willing to play by your rules...bummer!

You know what I want? I want you to act like a grown up and give a reasoned response to those scriptures, but I have no hope for that at all.
Ah, so you want ME to burn in hell too.

(You just don't get it about the word "hell" as it is found in the Bible, do you.)

No.

Yes.

Anyone who thinks Jesus was referring to the garbage dump as being eternal is a complete loon. Your remaining comments are sixth grade level drivel from someone who cannot defend her position or even articulate what it is.

And in this corner, we have the holy roller who whines above about others insulting and saying nasty things. Heal thyself, o great whiner!


Below is even better. Text after text after text after text and this is what Jl comes up with? But the Bible doesn't contradict itself, he says. What is this, chopped liver?


“If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person.

Right after that from Holy Joe, this:


from thence he shall come to judge the quick (living) and the dead.

Does he or doesn't he? Only Joe knows for sure.

Would anybody choose hell rather than heaven? Yes. Why? Pride.
Stop skating around the question. It's not about choosing hell, it's about God sending people to hell who don't believe in Jesus. Ask yourself "Why am I evading the question?"

God sending people to hell Who said that?
That has never been my concern (question). I don't know anything about that.
Is there a need for Hell...This would be what's in question?

And in this corner, we have the holy roller who whines above about others insulting and saying nasty things. Heal thyself, o great whiner!And here we have the guy who accuses others of calling names. Why don't you post something of substance? Do you have anything?

“If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person.


Right after that from Holy Joe, this:


from thence he shall come to judge the quick (living) and the dead.


Oh good grief. I just saw your "substance".

It's very simple. In the first quote, Jesus is speaking in the present tense of his time on earth. He did not come then for judgement but rather for salvation. The second speaks of the coming day of judgement when He will judge.

In a gross truncation of a quote which reminds me of your Aquinas debacle, you intentionally misrepresented what He said. The entire quote very nicely answers your question. It is startling that you did not, I suppose, bother to read it for yourself.

"47 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. (present tense JL)

48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. (future tense JL)"

"for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words" That would tragically seem to be you, Athos.

If you want to be a deceiver, you must learn to do a much better job.

And here we have the guy who accuses others of calling names.

Yeah, that's me. Here's you:


Anyone who thinks Jesus was referring to the garbage dump as being eternal is a complete loon. Your remaining comments are sixth grade level drivel from someone who cannot defend her position or even articulate what it is.
Complete loon? Sixth grade drivel? Not even articulate? And you accuse others?

Here's a fitting Bible verse for you: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."


reminds me of your Aquinas debacle
Love it when you bring this up. I'm immediately reminded how your twisted misinterpretation of the Bible has you claiming Jesus sends to hell for eternal torture anybody that never heard of him. Doesn't get any sicker or more evil than that.

More below:





It's very simple. In the first quote, Jesus is speaking in the present tense of his time on earth. He did not come then for judgement but rather for salvation. The second speaks of the coming day of judgement when He will judge.

For a guy who insists on being literal, I see that you provide context when it suits you. Will you now allow others to do the same?


If you want to be a deceiver, you must learn to do a much better job.

I'm learning by watching you. You are a terrific teacher.

Complete loon? Sixth grade drivel? Not even articulate? And you accuse others?You have a partial point. I did not connect a name with "complete loon", so that's pretty iffy. As to the others, they refer to someone's actions rather than calling names.


For a guy who insists on being literal, I see that you provide context when it suits you. Will you now allow others to do the same?Please do. You were, however, being deceptive in your mishandling of the text. If not, then explain why you provided the first half of the passage but not the second which clearly showed your point to be senseless. We earnestly await your explanation/admission. Perhaps it was simply a mistake?


I'm learning by watching you. You are a terrific teacher.When you appear to be deceptive, I point it out and give you an opportunity to explain. You rarely do so since you are simply being deceptive for which there is no explanation needed, but rather a simple admission. If I have, in your view, been deceptive, then by all means point it out. You never do, but I am offering you the chance. Just be specific. "Oh, you're deceptive!" demonstrates nothing.

You have a partial point. I did not connect a name with "complete loon", so that's pretty iffy. As to the others, they refer to someone's actions rather than calling names.

See post #179. I wasn't finished before you replied. Pretty quick on the trigger, eh?

I looked. This was not explained.


Please do. You were, however, being deceptive in your mishandling of the text. If not, then explain why you provided the first half of the passage but not the second which clearly showed your point to be senseless. We earnestly await your explanation/admission. Perhaps it was simply a mistake?Bear in mind that I am referring there to the quote by Jesus you referred to concerning judgment and not to the Aquinas quote.

I've heard your Aquinas explanation many times. I don't accept it as there is no support out there anywhere for your idea.

I've heard your Aquinas explanation many times. I don't accept it as there is no support out there anywhere for your idea.

By support, you mean of course the internet as "out there anywhere". I hardly think you are studying Aquinas from books in a structured setting. I have, and was taught by men who are scholars of the "Angelic Doctor". I'm aware of the propositions for which Thomas was condemned until much later when he was canonized as Saint Thomas Aquinas by the Catholic Church.

I care not a whit that you don't accept my explanation of Aquinas. You are like Doubting Thomas. Unless it is laid out for you in black and white, you dismiss whatever it may be. Remember that incident about the Navy you wouldn't believe? Well, I turned out to be right, didn't I? That one WAS on the internet and you couldn't find it. How much less would you ever find something by St. Thomas?

Do I trust you? No. Your latest effort at partially presenting a quote, still unaddressed by you, helps to explain why. Asking me to just take your word for it as regards Aquinas won’t work.


Remember that incident about the Navy you wouldn't believe? Well, I turned out to be right, didn't I?What in the world are you talking about?


How much less would you ever find something by St. Thomas?I found the half of the Aquinas quote that you failed to include. Didn't take long. So that's how I would "ever find something by St. Thomas".

"Most people" don't want to understand? Most people? But you are one of the privileged few? I would ask you to explain yourself but I know you won't.It can be found in the parable of the Prodigal son (I doubt you'll want to hear it). I'll wait till your in a better frame of mind, I can see your busy.

it's about God sending people to hell who don't believe in Jesus.
The Judgement of God, is not God sorting out the human race into a group that he likes that go to heaven and a group that he doesn't like that go to Hell.  By God's grace we don't get what our sins deserve.


But you are one of the privileged few? Only by the grace of God.

Do I trust you? No. Your latest effort at partially presenting a quote, still unaddressed by you, helps to explain why. Asking me to just take your word for it as regards Aquinas won’t work.

I never asked you to trust me. Nor have I ever asked you to take my word for Aquinas - or anything else for that matter.


What in the world are you talking about?

Funny how you have a selective memory when it comes to issues where you have been found wrong.


I found the half of the Aquinas quote that you failed to include. Didn't take long. So that's how I would "ever find something by St. Thomas".

Not everything is on the internet. As a self-proclaimed former "teacher", that should be very obvious to you.


The Judgement of God, is not God sorting out the human race into a group that he likes that go to heaven and a group that he doesn't like that go to Hell.

According to Jl's interpretation of the Bible, that us EXACTLY what God does! I thought you were also an evangelical. If I'm wrong about you, say whether you believe Jesus sends unbelievers to hell for eternal punishment.

Funny how you have a selective memory when it comes to issues where you have been found wrong.Funny how you obviously have NO memory of it. Otherwise you would be specific.


Not everything is on the internet. As a self-proclaimed former "teacher", that should be very obvious to you.Yeah, but the evidence to show your plain deceit about the Aquinas quote was there.


According to Jl's interpretation of the Bible, I haven't interpreted the Bible. I've simply quoted it. You don't like what it says and it makes you angry about it.

You still have not explained your partial quote of this passage. It certainly looks as deceitful as the Aquinas incident. I'll post it again in case you simply forgot to explain.


It's very simple. In the first quote, Jesus is speaking in the present tense of his time on earth. He did not come then for judgement but rather for salvation. The second speaks of the coming day of judgement when He will judge.

In a gross truncation of a quote which reminds me of your Aquinas debacle, you intentionally misrepresented what He said. The entire quote very nicely answers your question. It is startling that you did not, I suppose, bother to read it for yourself.

"47 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. (present tense JL)

48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. (future tense JL)"

I still don't understand why you get so upset about what I believe. Earlier I asked, "Why is it you care about what I believe?" You replied, "Because your belief re hell is horrible and should never be taught to children (or anyone) as a condition of salvation."

As far as hell goes, I simply believe what Jesus said over and over and over again, so it would seem we must conclude that you believe his teaching of hell is horrible. OK. Fair enough, but I have never, and will never, teach anyone that a belief in hell is a condition of salvation, so I still don't really understand what gets you so wound up about it. Why do you care?

I have never, and will never, teach anyone that a belief in hell is a condition of salvation.
What have you taught children about hell?

I don't do much teaching of children in a Christian setting. If I did, I would feel a responsibility to teach them what Jesus said about hell.

Would you?

I have never, and will never, teach anyone that a belief in hell is a condition of salvation,

When you say ( quoting Matthew) that unbelievers go to hell, you are making belief a condition of salvation.


so I still don't really understand what gets you so wound up about it. Why do you care?

I oppose evil in all its forms.

Funny how you obviously have NO memory of it. Otherwise you would be specific.

I specifically referred to the Navy incident.


the evidence to show your plain deceit about the Aquinas quote was there.

The evidence of the context of the quote was rejected by you. That's on you, not me.


You don't like what it says and it makes you angry about it.

You keep saying I'm angry. Somehow, that works for you. The truth is I usually enjoy the chance to expose your bad ideas about almost every subject you get yourself involved in.


You still have not explained your partial quote of this passage.

Already answered: here it is - For a guy who insists on being literal, I see that you provide context when it suits you. Will you now allow others to do the same?

When you say ( quoting Matthew) that unbelievers go to hell, you are making belief a condition of salvation.Belief in Christ, yes, but not in hell. And as I've said before, I simply posted what Jesus said. Your problem is with Him, and that's a bad situation to be in. "Unless you believe that I (Jesus) am He, you will die in your sins."


You keep saying I'm angry. Somehow, that works for you. The truth is I usually enjoy the chance to expose your bad ideas about almost every subject you get yourself involved in.Good luck. You're gonna need it.


I specifically referred to the Navy incident.There was no navy incident.



You still have not explained your partial quote of this passage.

Already answered: here it is - For a guy who insists on being literal, I see that you provide context when it suits you. Will you now allow others to do the same?A ridiculous reply in which you never say WHY you only posted half the statement and thus was deceitful. If that's your reply, then you're guilty as charged. Pleading "context" when you were the one who posted half the statement and thus had it OUT of context is ludicrous. We'll just call it Aquinas #2.

Here is the disgraceful effort of yours. Your partial quote of the first passage was intentionally deceitful. At least it's out there for everyone to see now. Better to be "Holy Joe" than Deceitful Athos.



“If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person.


Right after that from Holy Joe, this:



from thence he shall come to judge the quick (living) and the dead.


Does he or doesn't he? Only Joe knows for sure.

I don't do much teaching of children in a Christian setting. If I did, I would feel a responsibility to teach them what Jesus said about hell.

I have never, and will never, teach anyone that a belief in hell is a condition of salvation
What would you tell them?

Here is the disgraceful effort of yours.

Hardly disgraceful. It reflects your methodology EXACTLY. If one is disgraceful, so is the other (yours).

Belief in Christ, yes, but not in hell.

According to you, Christ sends unbelievers to hell. So, yes, belief in hell. You are now misinterpreting a misinterpretation.


Your problem is with Him, and that's a bad situation to be in. "Unless you believe that I (Jesus) am He, you will die in your sins."

Your proclivity to threaten opposing views is typical of your "Christianity". Your need for this goes very deep and goes a long way to understanding your belief.


There was no navy incident.

You were certainly all up in arms about it, denying what I said about USN reaction, which I proved with a link to the actual event. You refused to believe the evidence of your own eyes.


Aquinas .

Aquinas is mild compared to your position on hell. In a very real sense, St. Thomas anticipated your belief by centuries.

Hardly disgraceful. It reflects your methodology EXACTLY. If one is disgraceful, so is the other (yours).Except, of course, that I have posted your deceitful effort. You have nothing of mine to post, so your statement is just whining.


According to you, Christ sends unbelievers to hell. So, yes, belief in hell. You are now misinterpreting a misinterpretation.There is nothing "according to me". I've simply posted the words of Jesus.


You were certainly all up in arms about it, denying what I said about USN reaction, which I proved with a link to the actual event. You refused to believe the evidence of your own eyes.Yeah, right. Post the quotes and we can discuss it. Pretty sure you can't, but we'll see. But if you think I'll take your word for what happened, you are far away from reality.


Aquinas is mild compared to your position on hell.Your deceitfulness about Aquinas is, by far, the worst performance I've seen on this board. This was pretty bad as well.

It's very simple. In the first quote, Jesus is speaking in the present tense of his time on earth. He did not come then for judgement but rather for salvation. The second speaks of the coming day of judgement when He will judge.

In a gross truncation of a quote which reminds me of your Aquinas debacle, you intentionally misrepresented what He said. The entire quote very nicely answers your question. It is startling that you did not, I suppose, bother to read it for yourself.

"47 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. (present tense JL)

48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. (future tense JL)"

Except, of course, that I have posted your deceitful effort. You have nothing of mine to post, so your statement is just whining.

Your posting habits have been here for a long time - time enough for anyone to see what real deceit is like.


There is nothing "according to me". I've simply posted the words of Jesus.

Are you now saying you DO NOT believe Jesus sends unbelievers to hell for eternal torture? If you don't believe it, then say so. Don't be afraid.


if you think I'll take your word for what happened, you are far away from reality.

Not my word, your own memory.


Your deceitfulness about Aquinas is, by far, the worst performance I've seen

Calm down. Surely your belief about Jesus sending sinners and unbelievers to eternal hell is far, far worse than anything your fevered brain can conjure up re Aquinas or anyone else.

I think I'll call your Jesus/hell message JESUS REDUX since you repeat it so often and are so fond of sending so many to eternal torture in God's secret torture chamber.

Come on, Jesus judges and then he doesn't judge. Which is it? I don't think you know.

Your posting habits have been here for a long time - time enough for anyone to see what real deceit is like.In other words, you don't have a clue about the supposed Navy story.


Are you now saying you DO NOT believe Jesus sends unbelievers to hell for eternal torture? If you don't believe it, then say so. Don't be afraid.I believe that what Jesus said is true. I would encourage you to do the same.


Come on, Jesus judges and then he doesn't judge. Which is it? I don't think you know.Oh stop lying for goodness sake. It's becoming embarrassing to have to watch. That's already been explained to you. Remember? Present tense, future tense? My fifth graders could have easily understood it and I'm sure you can as well.

I don't have a Jesus/hell message. I just quote what He said. You don't like it, and it drives you nuts.

I'll post this again for your benefit and for the benefit of those who want to see your deceit at work.

It's very simple. In the first quote, Jesus is speaking in the present tense of his time on earth. He did not come then for judgement but rather for salvation. The second speaks of the coming day of judgement when He will judge.

In a gross truncation of a quote which reminds me of your Aquinas debacle, you intentionally misrepresented what He said. The entire quote very nicely answers your question. It is startling that you did not, I suppose, bother to read it for yourself.

"47 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. (present tense JL)

48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. (future tense JL)"

"47 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day."Jesus came to Earth to save the world. Jesus will return to send those who never heard of Him and also all those unbelievers to hell?

Jesus came to Earth to save the world
The message of the gospel, which is clearly in the pages of Scripture, is not a story that says, “Because Jesus achieved this, therefore we are all automatically forgiven.”

The message of the gospel, which is clearly in the pages of Scripture, is not a story that says, “Because Jesus achieved this, therefore we are all automatically forgiven.”
Yet we are all automatically loved.

Jesus came to Earth to save the world. Jesus will return to send those who never heard of Him and also all those unbelievers to hell?You keep asking me because you already know what Jesus said about this. You don't like His answer, so you want to ask someone else. I would suggest you lay your preconceived ideas aside and believe Him.

You keep asking me because you already know what Jesus said about this. You don't like His answer, so you want to ask someone else.
That's not what's going on here. Please butt out.

That's exactly what's going on. Besides, you asked me a question at 4:55.

Are you mad because I told you the truth? Why don't you believe what Jesus said?

Yet we are all automatically loved.
What's love got to do with it?

That's exactly what's going on. Besides, you asked me a question at 4:55.

Are you mad because I told you the truth? Why don't you believe what Jesus said?
I'm not mad. waltero and I are in a discussion, and using short, simple sentences.

waltero and I are in a discussion
Opps, I lost track of any such discussion days ago.
Too much animosity in this room.

What's love got to do with it?
(Sounds like the name of a song by Tina Turner in 1984!)

Love for humanity is why Jesus came to earth and died on the cross.

In other words, you don't have a clue about the supposed Navy story

We both know I do. I'll give you a little more time (as I did originally with the USN reaction re the issue) for you to fess up.


I believe what Jesus said is true. I would encourage you to do the same.

No, you believe what an unknown author wrote in a book several centuries ago. I encourage you to consider that.


That's already been explained to you. Remember? Present tense, future tense?

You don't like getting a taste of your own medicine, do you? Too sour?


My fifth graders could have easily understood it and I'm sure you can as well.

I pray you don't teach those children your ideas re hell.


I don't have a Jesus/hell message.

You clearly do. You've repeated it enough times here.


I just quote what He said.

Afraid to speak out on your own? You're not much of a disciple.


You don't like it, and it drives you nuts.

You're right that I don't like your message. Who would like billions of people winding up in hell being tortured for all eternity? Is that something YOU like? No, it does not drive me nuts. It does sicken me, tho.


I'll post this again for your benefit and for the benefit of those who want to see your deceit at work.

No need to - it's been posted enough times.

We both know I do. I'll give you a little more time (as I did originally with the USN reaction re the issue) for you to fess up.Right.


No need to - it's been posted enough times.Yep. We've been round this maypole enough. People can read your effort and decide for themselves. We'll just wait for your Navy fantasy to work itself out.

We'll just wait for you Navy fantasy to work itself out.

As we wait for your hell fantasy to work itself out.

The idea is not mine. Yes, we will wait to see how it works out.

I have a pretty good Idea of how it works out. Work it out anyway you choose.
We are in Hell right now (separated from God), God's presence is known. If we reject God's love (one and only Son)we will be hangen around this place for the rest of 'time', without the presence of God. For those who believe in the one and Only Son (Jesus), will simply slip into eternity with Christ Jesus. We deserve Hell (our sin), Hell makes sense, Heaven makes no sense (a gift). You can believe in what ever Hell you wish. Why bother denying it's existence? Because you don't want to believe an all loving God would...what exactly??? God’s wrath is to be feared because God promises eternal punishment apart from Christ (Matthew 25:46).

Have it your way. You want to live 'Your" life go for it. You live breath work slave for this World, this world is not going to end well. Who is worthy...None other than the name Jesus (the Son of the Living God), seek his Kingdom and you will enter eternal Bliss.

It is by grace, that we are saved from time eternal...in this life and the next.

We are in Hell right now (separated from God)
That seems reasonable to me when I think of all the evils in this life. Maybe we're at the basement level of the elevator that will someday take us to heaven. I wonder if there will be stops along the way -- or maybe we are experiencing those stops now on our way up.

That seems reasonable to me when I think of all the evils in this life. Maybe we're at the basement level of the elevator that will someday take us to heaven. I wonder if there will be stops along the way -- or maybe we are experiencing those stops now on our way up.

Good image.

It's far removed from an eternal place of unending torture for those who never heard of Jesus. I wonder if the evangelicals will accept it?


Opps, I lost track of any such discussion days ago.
Too much animosity in this room.

How much of the animosity have you contributed to?

I wonder if the evangelicals will accept it?
I'm guessing they will say the elevator is on its way down, not up.
******************************
Originally Posted by waltero https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?p=3868027#post3868027)
Opps, I lost track of any such discussion days ago.
Too much animosity in this room.


How much of the animosity have you contributed to?
From what I've read of waltero's posts, he isn't displaying animosity. He too often expresses his thoughts in convoluted sentences that are beyond my diagramming ability.

From what I've read of waltero's posts, he isn't displaying animosity. He too often expresses his thoughts in convoluted sentences that are beyond my diagramming ability.

I see those convoluted and careless ideas as expressing animosity trying to evade and confuse.

We will have to agree to disagree.

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

LOL - the Bible thumper jumps in with his threats - the fun continues.

"Unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth [set them apart for Your purposes, make them holy]; Your word is truth.

make them holy
How do we make them holy?

We don't.

We don't.
Then how can we help?

Tell them the truth.

Tell them the truth.
And that is?

Read the text to find out.

Read the text to find out.
You certainly wouldn't start out with that. How would you begin?

I wouldn’t start out with the truth? What??

I wouldn’t start out with the truth? What??
So clobber them.

You would? I wouldn’t.

You would? I wouldn’t.
You've never been to classes on how to successfully evangelize?

Why would you clobber them?

Why would you clobber them?YOU right off the bat clobber them with "the truth," you said.

I never said that. You did. Are you OK?

I never said that. You did. Are you OK?
You said, "I wouldn’t start out with the truth? What??"

No, that's not how you start.

What do you mean when you say, "evangelize"?

So you start off with a lie? Well...that's unique.

What do you mean when you say, "evangelize"?

So you start off with a lie? Well...that's unique.
There are only opposites in your life? No shades of gray?

First thing to do is make a connection.

Again. What do you mean when you say, "evangelize"?

I don't think you figured out what "truth" is.