Considering that there are a vast numbers of Christian denominations, does it matter which denomination someone belongs to?

Considering that there are a vast numbers of Christian denominations, does it matter which denomination someone belongs to?

I don't think it matters but others may disagree.

Some denominations themselves seem to find it important, even to the extent of assigning different Christian believers to eternal torture in hell. This is mostly true among fundamentalists and evangelicals, and is not as widespread as it once was. In the Middle Ages, it was held by the dominant denomination - Roman Catholicism.

Catholicism evolved to the belief that salvation depended on acting according to one's informed conscience. It is called Primacy of Conscience. By this tradition, all religions are able to find salvation. Even atheists, presumably, are included.

The fundamentalist/evangelical tradition continues to hold the extreme position which they support by a literal interpretation of the Bible.

The Catholic Church retains to itself the "fullest" expression of the religious impulse.

I don't think it mattersNice.

Why there are Different denomination:
I understand it having to do with where you are at in your Faith. Paul said, "Those that are strong in the faith can eat meat, those who are weak in the faith...

It is tragic how the church has been split and divided over the most ridiculous things. It would be great if we could recognize that we have differences of feelings, convictions, or opinions on the different issues involving the Christian walk.  We 'need' to recognize that people have different convictions, that not everybody is going to see the thing the right way like I see it.

Might be a good idea;
if we disagree, we disagree agreeably, to accept those weaker brothers in the faith.

We then that are strong [strong in the faith] ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves (Rom 15:1).
(I need to put up with him and not live for my own pleasure.)

Let every one of us please his neighbor for his good to build him up (Rom 15:2).

We 'need' to recognize that people have different convictions, that not everybody is going to see the thing the right way like I see it.

And that's the crux of the problem. Far too many Christians agree with that, that their way is the right way, the only way.

You [we] have got to respect the right of people to be wrong and not create a big dissension over the differences.

You [we] have got to respect the right of people to be wrong and not create a big dissension over the differences.
Exactly, waltero! Or...maybe just maybe "you [we]" are wrong and making a big kerfuffle over nothing.

A good rule is live to please God, not live to please myself. Living to please yourself can create a stumbling block for weaker brothers, so in love, because it would please God, be gracious. Don't exercise your liberty in such a way as to cause offense.

I use to have a problem with going to Church. I don't mind visiting different denominations. You can find a word of Truth in most. Over and over the Lord reminds me that it is His church, and because it is His church, I have no business worrying about it. I no longer worry a bout what church I should visit on any given Sunday.

God is in control.

A good rule is live to please God, not live to please myself. Living to please yourself can create a stumbling block for weaker brothers, so in love, because it would please God, be gracious. Don't exercise your liberty in such a way as to cause offense.
Yes, love God and, in His name and by His example, love each other.

His example

This is where you loose me. What Is "His" example and where can I find it (his example)?
Simply Asking. I want to know if Jesus is somewhere unbeknownst to me?

This is where you loose me. What Is "His" example and where can I find it (his example)?
Simply Asking. I want to know if Jesus is somewhere unbeknownst to me?
The four Gospels are full of stories about Jesus' love for others, even for people he didn't know.

Look over this site:
https://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/7-different-ways-jesus-showed-love/

The four Gospels are full of stories about Jesus' love for others, even for people he didn't know.
AH, Gotcha. I just wanted to know if we were on the same page...didn't want to be missing out on something.


Or...maybe just maybe "you [we]" are wrong and making a big kerfuffle over nothing.
I Don't think we're on the Same page anymore Toto.
Don't lose faith WG. It's not meant to be taken as; who knows more. It's all In Christ Jesus.
We all belong to the Same body.

We all belong to the Same body.
And God's love is bigger than we can inagine!

And God's love is bigger than we can imagine!
Sorry, If you could please explain? Does that mean we are to Imagine God's love as being unattainable? Or more of a reason why we shouldn't even try to 'imagine' God's love?

Sorry, If you could please explain? Does that mean we are to Imagine God's love as being unattainable? Or more of a reason why we shouldn't even try to 'imagine' God's love?
We are human. We love. We hate. We have various feelings in between those two. God is love, only love. God loves even those who are, to us, not worthy of love. We can't understand that, but we will one day.

And God's love is bigger than we can imagine!
I was just wondering if "God's big love" should be identified with ones own imagination.
Maybe a better thought: God’s love is great— so great that it surpasses our knowledge.

Maybe a better thought: God’s love is great— so great that it surpasses our knowledge [and understanding].
Excellent, waltero!

Ephesians 3:19 19and to know this love that surpasses knowledge-that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God. Can you imagine the freedom that would come to our hearts from having full confidence in the love of Christ?


I rephrased this:

We are human. We love. We hate. We have various feelings in between those two. God is love, only love. God loves even those who are, to us, not worthy of love. We can't understand that, but we will one day.
Replaced God with We.
We are human. We love. We hate. We have various feelings in between those two. 'We' is love, We love even those who are, to us, not worthy of love. We have to understand that, and We will be full of confidence in the love of Christ? Ephesians 3:19
To know this love that surpasses knowledge-that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
Thankfully, embracing God’s love for ourselves destroys the fear of criticism.
Or...maybe just maybe "you [we]" are wrong and making a big kerfuffle over nothing. Turn the page.

Nicely stated and rephrased, waltero!

Nicely stated and rephrased, waltero!
Thanks.
Going for broke!

Quote: Wondergirl
The Bible (not the Word)
rephrased:

The Bible is the Word.

Quote: Wondergirl
The Bible (not the Word) has existed for millennia and has been mistranslated, misinterpreted, and misunderstood all that time.
rephrased:

The Word (not the Bible) has existed for millennia and has been mistranslated, misinterpreted, and misunderstood all that time.


I gather that your disappointment in the Bible is based on there being; so many Christian denominations? so many Bible versions? so many variations in Christian beliefs? As a result of "the Bible has existed for millennia and has been mistranslated, misinterpreted, and misunderstood all that time"?

I hope your not reading this with the belief that I am trying to set you up.
Hoping that I might be able to learn something new.

Quote: Wondergirl
The Bible (not the Word) has existed for millennia and has been mistranslated, misinterpreted, and misunderstood all that time.
waltero, I was thinking of Jesus as the Word. He is the personification of the written and spoken Word. The testimony that God revealed through the Old Testament prophets was made human (Jesus Christ). Therefore, the Word became flesh.

I gather that your disappointment in the Bible is based on there being; so many Christian denominations? so many Bible versions? so many variations in Christian beliefs? As a result of "the Bible has existed for millennia and has been mistranslated, misinterpreted, and misunderstood all that time"?
I'm not disappointed in the Bible. I'm disappointed in humans who have, for millennia, mistranslated, misinterpreted, and misunderstood the Bible, thereby opening the door to myriads of denominations, Bible versions, and variations in beliefs (thus, the plethora of denominations).

Original Quote:

The Bible (not the Word) has existed for millennia and has been mistranslated, misinterpreted, and misunderstood all that time. Why are there so many Christian denominations? Why are there so many Bible versions? Why are there so many variations in Christian beliefs?
A Question has presented itself- yes - no?


humans who have, for millennia, mistranslated, misinterpreted, and misunderstood the Bible, thereby opening the door to myriads of denominations, Bible versions, and variations in beliefs (thus, the plethora of denominations).
"Humans have for millennia, mistranslated, misinterpreted, and misunderstood the Bible."- "thus being the reason, for this- "thus, the plethora of denominations"? thereby, providing the Proof, that the Bible has been Corrupted"???

waltero, please ask your questions simply and as a 1, 2, 3 list.

waltero, please ask your questions simply and as a 1, 2, 3 list.

lolol.

waltero, please ask your questions simply and as a 1, 2, 3 list.
OK:
1)-Is one denomination more "Christian" than another?
2)-The Bible (not the Word) has existed for millennia and has been mistranslated, misinterpreted, and misunderstood all that time. Why are there so many Christian denominations? Why are there so many Bible versions? Why are there so many variations in Christian beliefs?
3)-Am I [we] wrong and making a big kerfuffle over nothing?
-Will this work-?

Why are there so many Christian denominations? Why are there so many Bible versions? Why are there so many variations in Christian beliefs?

I'd like to find the answer? I think I found it, but if you already know the answer then I will buzz off.

1) Is one denomination more "Christian" than another?

Until the Protestant Reformation, the Christian Church was largely composed of only two groups or "denominations": the Roman Catholic Church in the west and the Greek Orthodox Church in the east.

With the Reformation, however, as neglected Bible truths began to be restored and emphasized, different denominations arose holding different doctrinal positions on a number of issues. Sometimes these differences were rather minor; in other cases, they were quite significant.

Other Christian denominations grew up around a gifted spiritual leader, such as Martin Luther (https://www.bibleinfo.com/en/questions/who-was-martin-luther) (Lutherans), John Calvin (Calvinists), John Wesley (Methodists), or in more modern times Joseph Smith (Mormonism) and Mary Baker Eddy (Christian Science).

https://www.bibleinfo.com/en/questions/why-so-many-denominations

Is one better or more Christian than another?

According to the New Testament, there were divisions in the church as soon as the church came into existence after Pentecost. Paul addresses divisions in 1 Corinthians 1: 12-13. Since the division in Christianity existed at the beginning, I believe no one denomination can lay claim to being the one true way of Christianity.

C.S. Lewis puts it best in Mere Christianity: Christianity is like a hall with several doors leading to rooms. The doors represent different Christian denominations or churches. Growing in your faith comes from the benefits of being in one of the rooms. Lewis recommends going into a room versus staying in the hall, he does not recommend one room over another.

I believe no one denomination can lay claim to being the one true way of Christianity.
Do they lay claim to that (being "the one true way")?

Faith means believing God’s Word.

No, it doesn't. Try again.
What is it I'm missing?

Do they lay claim to that (being "the one true way")?
Many of them do, yes. Those denominations believe they have it all figured out.

What is it I'm missing?
Yes, faith is belief in God's Word...but is there only one way to understand it and believe?

but is there only one way to understand it and believe?
I know of only one; the Holy Bible.

I know of only one; the Holy Bible.
I asked, is there only one WAY [the Lutheran way, the Mormon way, the Catholic way, etc.] to understand it...?

I asked, is there only one WAY [the Lutheran way, the Mormon way, the Catholic way, etc.] to understand it...? We may modify our language, but we cannot change our hearts.
The alienation that exists is addressed by the reconciliation that is provided in the work of Jesus

Ultimately, if the Bible is to be brought home to us, it must come, as it were, through the lips of Jesus himself—that by the Holy Spirit, it is not enough simply to hear the voice of a mere man, but in it, through it, and beyond it, we actually hear Christ. So, we have this wonderful record of what God has done, beginning this work of transformation, putting us in a right relationship with himself and in a unique relationship with one another.

Ultimately, if the Bible is to be brought home to us, it must come, as it were, through the lips of Jesus himself—that by the Holy Spirit, it is not enough simply to hear the voice of a mere man, but in it, through it, and beyond it, we actually hear Christ.
And all of those denominations would say and do that. Then, if I'm unchurched, which one should I join?

And all of those denominations would say and do that. Then, if I'm unchurched, which one should I join?
Would it matter? Pick up a Bible is probably going to be the best choice.
Unchurched would want to join a church, why?

Would it matter?
That's an excellent question! Now let's invite other members into this discussion.

Is Methodism much different from Mormonism or Catholicism? If so, do their differences really matter as to salvation?

That's an excellent question! Now let's invite other members into this discussion.

Is Methodism much different ftom Mormonism or Catholicism? If so, do their differences really matter as to salvation?

Thank you for the invitation.

I think that differences in Christian denominations do not matter as to salvation.

I also think differences in religion (Jew, Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, etc.) and/or absence of religion (atheism, agnosticism) also do not matter as to salvation.

What I think matters as to salvation is living your life according to the lights you have been given. Christ and other spiritual masters have given the way to such a life.

I believe this because insisting that God prefers one denomination or religion or lifestyle over another would mean that God has created the overwhelming majority of humanity to not be worthy of salvation.

The question of evil is not so simple. The best answer I have is that those individuals who are truly evil and promote their evil are subject to death as a finality. But it's possible they too can experience salvation.

living your life living your life- is this your source or means of being saved?
Being transformed in and of yourself?


lights you have been given
We have nothing. We've been given nothing. It is by God's grace (something he offers)...for everyone who will receive His gift of salvation

Thank you for the invitation.

I think that differences in Christian denominations do not matter as to salvation.

I also think differences in religion (Jew, Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, etc.) and/or absence of religion (atheism, agnosticism) also do not matter as to salvation.

What I think matters as to salvation is living your life according to the lights you have been given. Christ and other spiritual masters have given the way to such a life.

I believe this because insisting that God prefers one denomination or religion or lifestyle over another would mean that God has created the overwhelming majority of humanity to not be worthy of salvation.

The question of evil is not so simple. The best answer I have is that those individuals who are truly evil and promote their evil are subject to death as a finality. But it's possible they too can experience salvation.

Athos you make that sound so simple and easy without all the human complications, proclamations, and solicitations! What do threats and lectures have to do with spirituality anyway? Isn't salvation a unique thing to the believer or does it have to be dictated by some dufus.

Athos you make that sound so simple and easy without all the human complications, proclamations, and solicitations!

Certainly life is difficult. I never said or implied otherwise.


What do threats and lectures have to do with spirituality anyway?

What are you referring to? Surely nothing in my post.


Isn't salvation a unique thing to the believer or does it have to be dictated by some dufus.

Huh? I couldn't have been any clearer - salvation depends on how a life is lived. Asking if it "has to be dictated by some dufus" is nowhere near what I wrote.

You are inserting much into my post that simply isn't there. Why?

living your life- is this your source or means of being saved?
Being transformed in and of yourself?

Why do you mangle my words? Are you trying to create animosity?


We have nothing. We've been given nothing. It is by God's grace (something he offers)...for everyone who will receive His gift of salvation

You have been given much. It's right there in your own sentence. Your insistence on not understanding simple things is growing old.

Certainly life is difficult. I never said or implied otherwise.



What are you referring to? Surely nothing in my post.



Huh? I couldn't have been any clearer - salvation depends on how a life is lived. Asking if it "has to be dictated by some dufus" is nowhere near what I wrote.

You are inserting much into my post that simply isn't there. Why?

Not my intent to insert anything to what you posted, but just agreeing and obviously I resent others defining MY salvation or anyone else's . Not you, but the dufus who trolls this forum. So no need to get your back up, I just found your logical posting rather easy to agree with.

Not my intent to insert anything to what you posted, but just agreeing and obviously I resent others defining MY salvation or anyone else's . Not you, but the dufus who trolls this forum. So no need to get your back up, I just found your logical posting rather easy to agree with.

Lol - I didn't have my back up - I was genuinely interested in what you posted being such a voice for reason on these pages.

Tks for explaining.

I asked, is there only one WAY
All mankind can be saved from the wrath of God by the love of God, but only on very narrow terms: "one sacrifice for sin". Nothing else will do (Hebrews 10:12,14).

The "way of salvation" is open to anyone, but it is the only way, and irrevocably laid down by God in law. It isn't subject to negotiation, or a matter in which one has a number of options. You either comply with this law and obtain "salvation", or else you remain "lost".

The "way of salvation" is open to anyone, but it is the only way, and irrevocably laid down by God in law. It isn't subject to negotiation, or a matter in which one has a number of options. You either comply with this law and obtain "salvation", or else you remain "lost".Well said. Now get ready for all of the "bible bingo", "cherry-picking", and "You want to see the people you hate in hell," comments.

You either comply with this law and obtain "salvation", or else you remain "lost".
Law? No, it's Love -- Love beyond measure.

Only Christians can be saved?

Yes, God is exclusive as to how people can be saved; there is only one way back to God as there is only one way sin can be dealt with.

But, no; the fact that there is one way does not mean God is showing favouritism or elisitism, because God is universal in his offering of that salvation to all people through the good news of the gospel.

Yes, God is exclusive as to how people can be saved; there is only one way back to God as there is only one way sin can be dealt with.

But, no; the fact that there is one way does not mean God is showing favouritism or elisitism, because God is universal in his offering of that salvation to all people through the good news of the gospel.
All those billions of people who never heard the Gospel, what about them?

since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
And they gave God names, such as Zeus, Brahma and Vishnu, the Great Spirit, Jehovah Elohim, Xwede, Bhagavan, Huitzilopochtli, Inti, and Akai Purakh.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened...and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

"There is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved- and there is salvation in no one else."

Believe the Bible or believe you. Pretty straightforward choice.

All those billions of people who never heard the Gospel, what about them?
Is this really of your concern?

Paul explains to the church leaders from Ephesus that he considers himself "innocent of the blood of all men"(Acts 20:16) because he has faithfully explained the gospel to every person he could.

Is this really of your concern?
Yes! And what Paul said to excuse himself ftom blame has nothing to do with my question.

since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.


This has nothing to do with WG's question. It is from Paul's letter to the Romans which you have cherry-picked to take it entirely out of context. Liar, liar, pants on fire!

WHAT A FRAUD YOU ARE!

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened...and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

"There is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved- and there is salvation in no one else."

Believe the Bible or believe you. Pretty straightforward choice.
That has nothing to do with what I said. They lived long before the Bible was even thought of, or, if it had been written, had no knowledge of it. They simply looked at the wonders of nature and the world around them, and realized that a power beyond their ken had been at work and was still at work in their lives.

Is this really of your concern?

Of course, it is. Isn't it your concern? Do you just ignore all those billions to rot in hell? Hardly very Christ-like.

All those billions of people who never heard the Gospel, what about them?
What about them? Are you worried they will be lost forever? It's not for you to decide.

Perhaps understanding the exclusivity of salvation together with the doctrine of election may help
us understand why this is not our concern.


They lived long before the Bible was even thought of
Where do you get this stuff?

What about them? Are you worried they will be lost forever?
Am I worried? Aren't you?

Perhaps understanding the exclusivity of salvation together with the doctrine of election may help
us understand why this is not our concern.
Exclusivity? Doctrine of election? Sounds like a very private club.

Exclusivity? Doctrine of election? Sounds like a very private club.

Yes, God is exclusive as to how people can be saved; there is only one way back to God as there is only one way sin can be dealt with.

But, no; the fact that there is one way does not mean God is showing favouritism or elisitism, because God is universal in his offering of that salvation to all people through the good news of the gospel.


Am I worried? Aren't you?
Should I be?


All those billions of people who never heard the Gospel, what about them?
Needless worry. It is irrelevant to this discussion.

God is universal in his offering of that salvation to all people through the good news of the gospel

What about the people who never heard the gospel?

This has nothing to do with WG's question. It is from Paul's letter to the Romans which you have cherry-picked to take it entirely out of context. Liar, liar, pants on fire!

WHAT A FRAUD YOU ARE!First I had to laugh at all the drama. "Liar, liar pants on fire!" Is this a second grade classroom?

You must not have read her question. It's the same one you just asked, and it certainly addresses it as well as her follow up about Zeus, etc.

Truth is, you got caught with your hand in the cookie jar, and now you are desperate for everyone else to be as guilty as you are. Good luck with that.


since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

God is universal in his offering of that salvation to all people through the good news of the gospel.
What about the people who lived before the Bible was written and who never knew of God and His offering of salvation?

Needless worry. It is irrelevant to this discussion.
They're going to an eternal, fiery hell?


This ... is from Paul's letter to the Romans which you have cherry-picked to take it entirely out of context.
I agree. This passage has nothing to do with the current topic of conversation.

That has nothing to do with what I said. They lived long before the Bible was even thought of, or, if it had been written, had no knowledge of it.

We must first define what salvation means as it pertains to eternity.

The Word of God is clear: believers are those whom God chose for salvation from before the beginning.


They're going to an eternal, fiery hell?
This has nothing to do with the current topic of conversation.

I agree. This passage has nothing to do with the current topic of conversation.Other than it directly addresses your question of the "billions" who have not heard the Gospel?

Out of context? Fraid not.

I'll add this. If someone is "cherry-picking" scriptures, then the easy solution is to answer the solitary passage with other passages that provide both context and the correct view. You never do that.

"Liar, liar pants on fire!" Is this a second grade classroom?

I gear all my replies to you at a second grade level so you do not have trouble with comprehension.

We must first define what salvation means as it pertains to eternity.
I have no idea what this means. Please explain.

The Word of God is clear: believers are those whom God chose for salvation from before the beginning.
So if I'm not on God's list, tough beans to me? I go to an eternity in a fiery hell? And the chosen ones have no choice? They can't say no?

I gear all my replies to you at a second grade level so you do not have trouble with comprehension.
Ah, Somebody advanced a grade.

He is really advancing! I'm proud of him. Third grade here he comes.

Ah, Somebody advanced a grade.

Ok walter, for you I'll make an exception. I'll jump to 3rd grade.


The Word of God is clear: believers are those whom God chose for salvation from before the beginning.

So, no free will?


They're going to an eternal, fiery hell?




This has nothing to do with the current topic of conversation.

Of course, it does. You've got to stop running, Walter, evading questions. In the end, you can't hide.

Of course, Hell is always the main subject with the two of you.

Of course, Hell is always the main subject with the two of you.
Do you believe in hell?

I've already answered that. Do you believe in Hell? If not, why are you always bringing it up?
DO you believe the Bible is the Word of God?

It is of no use talking to you, about a Book that you don't believe in. If you don't believe the Bible is God's Word then you are at fault.

Of course, it does. You've got to stop running, Walter, evading questions.
The two of you continually ask the same questions. Y

Ok walter, for you I'll make an exception. I'll jump to 3rd grade.

So, no free will?

I think it would be better for you, if you were to meet me in kindergarten.

I get that;
You don't want to believe in a God that would send people to Hell.
Making Hell your focal point. By doing that you are choosing Hell over Heaven? o!

Do you believe in hell?The question is, did Jesus believe in hell?


It is of no use talking to you, about a Book that you don't believe in.Walter, you have hit the nail on the head. It is a source of never ending amazement to me why two people who plainly do not consider the Bible to be authoritative to have such concern about what the Bible does or doesn't say. If I believed the Bible was just some old, inaccurate, poorly preserved and translated book, I wouldn't care what it says. I have no idea why they want to endlessly argue the subject.

The Bible is God's word in my view. It is light and life. If a man who was raised from the dead preached and taught about hell, then that's good enough for me.

If a man who was raised from the dead preached and taught about hell, then that's good enough for me.
That Man preached and taught about love.

The two of you continually ask the same questions.

As for me, I continually wait for your answer - been several weeks now. You keep evading an answer. The question is very straightforward - why no answer?

It's especially important now that you have declared that God chooses those he has declared for since before the beginning. What does God do with the rest of humanity - the billions not chosen?

No doubt you'll give a non-answer again. Such an easy question.

That Man preached and taught about love.And hell. You just choose to believe the former but not the latter. Who knows why.

God has created the overwhelming majority of humanity to not be worthy of salvation. None is worthy.
“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves

salvation depends on how a life is lived.

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast” (Ephesians 2:8,9). You are saved by faith or you are not. It is a gift or it is by works. It cannot be both

Put your Trust in God. Do not rely on your own understanding. There is only one life, and it ain't yours.
Maybe the Prodigal son's older brother might fill you in. He was a good son, yet his younger brother was accepted.
The Older son (good he was) was a Pharisee.

None is worthy.
“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves.

Correct. God owes no man anything. If He only saved one person, it would be an act of immense mercy. No one will ever rightly point a finger at God and accuse Him of being unjust. We are all in the same boat as the thief on the cross. "‘Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong." They both initially mocked Jesus, but then one repented and asked for mercy. "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom." Some on this board mock Him and discount His words, but a terrible day is coming when all mocking and unbelief will stop.

“We are punished justly, for we’re getting what our deeds deserve,” he says to his friend. “But this man has done nothing wrong.”
It’s remarkable, isn’t it, how somebody in the final stages of their Life should be processing information so well. I wonder, did he mean by this, “You know, this is what’s supposed to happen to you if you’re a rebel of the state. This is supposed to happen to you if you’re a terrorist.” Is that what he’s saying? You know, “This man hasn’t done anything; the Charges against him were trumped up. The charges against us were legitimate. Therefore, it is legitimate that we die; it’s illegitimate that he die.” I think it’s probably deeper than that. I think, if push came to shove, this individual, who was an opponent of the state, would still do it all over again. His sense of zealous rebellion against the Roman authorities was so strong, I think—and I can’t verify this, but I’m going to find him and look for him, finally, one day in heaven, and I’m going to ask him, “When you said to your friend on the Cross, ‘We are getting what we deserve,’ were you referring to the punishment of wrong, or were you referring to the punishment that your sins deserved?” I think that’s where he gets to: “This man has done nothing, and we deserve to die.”

That’s where people get off the bus in the conversation. People say to me all the time, “Well, do we have to go there, Walter? I mean, that’s what I dislike about Religion,” they tell me. “I don’t like that sort of religious idea of admitting your guilt and being deserving of a punishment. I don’t like that. I don’t like to think of God like that. That’s why I don’t like religion. That’s why I’m spiritual but not religious.”

that is actually not the response of religion.

The first criminal essentially makes a demand upon Jesus for what he thinks he deserves. The second criminal makes a request to Jesus for what he knows he doesn’t deserve. Now, let me say that to you again, because on this hinges the difference between believing Faith and religious hopefulness. The first individual makes a demand upon Jesus for what he believes he deserves. The second individual makes a request of Jesus for what he knows he doesn’t deserve.

And hell. You just choose to believe the former but not the latter. Who knows why.
Hell (Gehenna - the Valley of Hinnom, a place near Jerusalem where children were sacrificed to Baal) was a horror that the people of Jesus' time understood. If Jesus were physically here with us today in 2021, what meaningful-to-us reference would he use to describe a modern place of pain and suffering?

what meaningful-to-us reference would he use to describe a modern place of pain and suffering?
Wouldn't you rather think of what Kingdom place Jesus has Promised you today? Not in a remote future in some far-off place, after you've been sleeping in the ground for five thousand years

It’s remarkable, isn’t it,

Boy, it sure is - remarkable. The way you absolutely, positively refuse to answer the simplest of questions.

As for me, I continually wait for your answer - been several weeks now. You keep evading an answer. The question is very straightforward - why no answer?

It's especially important now that you have declared that God chooses those he has declared for since before the beginning. What does God do with the rest of humanity - the billions not chosen?

No doubt you'll give a non-answer again. Such an easy question.

Augustus Toplady puts it masterfully, doesn’t he?

Nothing in my hand I bring,
And simply to your cross I cling;
And naked, come to you for dress;
And helpless, come to you for rest;
And I, the foul one, to your fountain fly;
I want you to wash me, Jesus, or I’ll die.


What does God do with the rest of humanity - the billions not chosen?
Is this your hang up? I don't think he's going to throw a party for them, if that's what you mean.

Augustus Toplady puts it masterfully, doesn’t he?

Nothing in my hand I bring,
And simply to your cross I cling;
And naked, come to you for dress;
And helpless, come to you for rest;
And I, the foul one, to your fountain fly;
I want you to wash me, Jesus, or I’ll die.[18]
But if Jesus didn't choose Augustus Toplady to be saved, what will happen to him?

Augustus Toplady puts it masterfully, doesn’t he?


You're off your meds again, aren't you? Try and stick to the topic.

But if Jesus didn't choose Augustus Toplady to be saved, what will happen to him?
When Jesus said, "Few there are who find it" he is not talking about God’s way, for God wants everyone to find it and walk it. Rather Jesus is stating the choice mankind makes. Few follow God’s plan, many reject it.

Your asking the Wrong Questions. What path are you following?

Your asking the Wrong Questions.

Oh God, what could be more evasive then changing the question? You are some piece of work, W.

When Jesus said, "Few there are who find it" he is not talking about God’s way, for God wants everyone to find it and walk it. Rather Jesus is stating the choice mankind makes. Few follow God’s plan, many reject it.

Your asking the Wrong Questions. What path are you following?
You said in post #61, "The Word of God is clear: believers are those whom God chose for salvation from before the beginning." What if God didn't choose Augustus Toplady -- or me -- or you?

Hell (Gehenna - the Valley of Hinnom, a place near Jerusalem where children were sacrificed to Baal) was a horror that the people of Jesus' time understood. If Jesus were physically here with us today in 2021, what meaningful-to-us reference would he use to describe a modern place of pain and suffering?So what's your point? Are you really suggesting that "hell" to Jesus was just a reference to a garbage dump?

So what's your point? Are you really suggesting that "hell" to Jesus was just a reference to a garbage dump?
Did you read what I had posted?:
Hell (Gehenna - the Valley of Hinnom, a place near Jerusalem where children were sacrificed to Baal) was a horror that the people of Jesus' time understood. If Jesus were physically here with us today in 2021, what meaningful-to-us reference would he use to describe a modern place of pain and suffering?

I also said this: We must first define what salvation means as it pertains to eternity.
In response to this:
That has nothing to do with what I said. They lived long before the Bible was even thought of, or, if it had been written, had no knowledge of it.
Giving you this:
believers are those whom God chose for salvation from before the beginning


You can't get passed the Hell factor. You hear nothing because you don't want to believe that an all loving God would punish the ones that you love. Is their blood on your hands?

Did you read what I had posted?:



Hell (Gehenna - the Valley of Hinnom, a place near Jerusalem where children were sacrificed to Baal) was a horror that the people of Jesus' time understood. If Jesus were physically here with us today in 2021, what meaningful-to-us reference would he use to describe a modern place of pain and suffering?I did. Did you read my question? "So what's your point? Are you really suggesting that "hell" to Jesus was just a reference to a garbage dump?"

I did. Did you read my question? "So what's your point? Are you really suggesting that "hell" to Jesus was just a reference to a garbage dump?"
It was very symbolic, a place of pain and suffering (N.B. bolded words). Is hell a real place? What would be comparable for us in the 21st century?

Did you read my question?

We already know the answer to that. They Have no understanding because they are focused on the path that leads to destruction. If they only did an about-face! It's not a gospel of hell but a gospel of Heaven.

We already know the answer to that. They Have no understanding because they are focused on the path that leads to destruction. If they only did an about-face! It's not a gospel of hell but a gospel of Heaven.

Answer the question, waldo. The board is watching and waiting.

Answer the question, waldo. The board is watching and waiting.
It doesn't matter (already answered) your response will be the same...same as it ever was.
[what about those who don't believe. What about Hell. What about me, you and a dog named Blue.]
When it comes to Hell, I don't have an answer for you. If you are questioning my Salvation, I refer you to Jesus, ask the Bible.



The Word of God is clear: believers are those whom God chose for salvation from before the beginning.
Perhaps understanding the exclusivity of salvation together with the doctrine of election may help
understand why this is not an 'unfair' doctrine.

The idea that God does what He wants, and that what He does is true and right because He does it, is foundational to our understanding of everything in Scripture.

It was very symbolic, a place of pain and suffering (N.B. bolded words). Is hell a real place? What would be comparable for us in the 21st century?Jesus certainly considered hell to be a real place.

Jesus certainly considered hell to be a real place.
It was a terrific illustrative device for making His point, wasn't it!

When it comes to Hell, I don't have an answer for you.

Thank you, Waltero. I appreciate an honest answer like you have given here. Until next time, go in peace.