We need new names for them that reflect their decisions to ruin the lives of children by forcing cities to shut down schools when everyday precautions that everyone else in the country is told to do to prevent covid infection could and should be exercised ;and for their support for systemic racist policies that deny children's parents education choice. Maybe Antikid ? The UFT is proving it'sef to be the enemy of NYC parents .They have put their narrow ­interests over the best interests of children.They are holding NYC to ridiculously narrow standards . Now Quid's lead candidate for Sec Education is AFT Pres Randi Weingarten . She is a disaster .

We need new names for them that reflect their decisions to ruin the lives of children by forcing cities to shut down schools when everyday precautions that everyone else in the country is told to do to prevent covid infection could and should be exercised
The infection and death numbers tell a wholly different story on the Covid control front. The pandemic is running rampant through your country due to systemic ineptitude, economy and "freedom" over public health... While other countries are seeing peaks and troughs, America has a high plateau with very little let up in sight.
So, with Thanksgiving next week, be prepared for those numbers to increase dramatically...
There is no Greater Good, just Me, Me, me, it's about time personal responsibility kicked in...

While other countries are seeing peaks and troughs, America has a high plateau with very little let up in sight.As has been shown here many times, many leading European countries such as France, Germany, and the U.K. are experiencing spikes right now, and they are some of the leaders in centralized control and planning, so I see no point in following their lead.

As to Tom's post, it is accurate. Covid is clearly not a great threat to those under 55, and that would include all students and nearly all teachers. Not to suggest we should become casual about it at all, but we can't just throw away a year of school over this.

If Randi Weingarten is appointed, then we will soon be seeing mandated schools sessions telling children that homosexual lifestyles of all kinds are perfectly acceptable, and helping first graders make the decision to have a sex change operation.

Time for some cold hard numbers...
Difficult I know.

The mortality rate is, to be really conservative, 1%.
Population of America is 330 million (rounded)
So that would give a death rate due to this pandemic of 3.3 MILLION !!!

While the USA is currently way under that number, it's not due to careful management or virus control.
The distributed nature of the population has played a huge hand in this, have a closer look at the population centers and how hard they have been hit.
Your "health service" is buckling under the pressure caring for Covid cases.

The mortality rate is, to be really conservative, 1%.
Population of America is 330 million (rounded)
So that would give a death rate due to this pandemic of 3.3 MILLION !!!

While the USA is currently way under that number, it's not due to careful management or virus control.
The distributed nature of the population has played a huge hand in this, have a closer look at the population centers and how hard they have been hit.
Your "health service" is buckling under the pressure caring for Covid cases.

So our death number should, in your view, be around 3 mil, and yet is less than 1/10 of that, but we can't credit our "management or virus control" since it's due to our "distributed...population"? So you are saying that states like South Dakota, Wyoming, and Montana should be doing very well? I would suggest you look at those states for yourself. They are struggling like everyone else. Our management and control, all things considered, has been about as good as could be expected. Not nearly as rigid as the three European countries I mentioned, but they are spiking as well, so it just seems to be true that this virus is highly contagious and there is not much to be done to stop it. It can be slowed down some, but not stopped until we get to a vaccine which should, by all that's right, be named the Donald J. Trump vaccine.

Sweden did very little in the way of control, and they are doing better than many other countries, so it is just a hard illness to predict. Most of the criticism here has just been a manifestation of "We hate Donald Trump."

You are doing a tremendous job at virus control, a model for the rest of the world.

Well, your own statement was that we should have expected 3.3 million deaths, but instead we have less than 1/10 of that, so either your statement was ridiculous, or we are doing fantastically better than we should have expected. Take your pick.

Clearly the irony is lost...

Clearly you have no answer.

I do, however, I'm keeping my own counsel.

I do, however, I'm keeping my own counsel.Like I said. You have no answers. Are you related to the lady on this board? You two are very similar.

Like I said. You have no answers. Are you related to the lady on this board? You two are very similar.
And our common factor on this board is....

Evasiveness. Total evasiveness.

I have no wish to enter into a destructive circular argument.
Oddly enough, I have the ability to look beyond the mutterances of our "leaders" and have a wider outlook.
I'm not a blind follower more an open minded scholar.

Like I said, you have no answers. One thing above all else that gets my goat on this board is for someone to make a statement and when confronted with evidence that contradicts it, they just withdraw into a shell and make silly statements about circular arguments, utterances, and outlooks. You're a scholar? Sure you are.

here are the American Academy of Pediatric numbers . As of November 12th, over 1 million children have tested positive for COVID-19 since the onset of the pandemic. The age distribution of reported COVID-19 cases was provided on the health department websites of 49 states, New York City, the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, and Guam. Children represented 11.5% of all cases in states reporting cases by age.A smaller subset of states reported on hospitalizations and mortality by age; the available data indicated that COVID-19-associated hospitalization and death is uncommon in children. Children were 0.00%-0.21% of all COVID-19 deaths, and 16 states reported zero child deaths and the ones who did die had preexisting conditions .

So the issues the teaches have is their own risks . I submit that when they compare to millions of other workers who are deemed essential ;and who report to work every day and live with the guidelines for a safe working environment . The only thing I can think is that they the teachers unions assume their rank and file is a selfish lot .

And those children pass the coronavirus on to not only the teachers but also to family members, relatives, and neighbors. Plus, we still don't know the negative long-term effects those children will experience in the future.

Hello NYC parents want their children in school. That means the only issue is the teachers .



Plus, we still don't know the negative long-term effects those children will experience in the future.

But we do have a pretty good idea of the negative impacts with children losing more than a year of schooling .

Hello NYC parents want their children in school. That means the only issue is the teachers .
Jimmy's grandma was in good health and lively until she caught her grandson's coronavirus. After coughing endlessly and trying to breathe, she died a week later. At the family's Thanksgiving get-together, Jimmy passed the virus to a couple of aunts and cousins. Three weeks later Jimmy's dad died of the virus.

But we do have a pretty good idea of the negative impacts with children losing more than a year of schooling .
There's no timetable for education and learning. The math and grammar and science will still be there to learn. What the students are missing the most is the social interaction.

There's no timetable for education and learning. The math and grammar and science will still be there to learn. What the students are missing the most is the social interaction.

That is an excellent point.

What hasn't been discussed is the dilemma of working parents. A single-parent family who is responsible for housing and putting food on the table, or even a two-parent family who both work need assistance. One parent may or may not be able to stay at home with a young child.

Another stimulus payment would go a long way to help such families survive. With vaccines on the horizon, the payments would not be "forever", but manageable if the Mitch McConnell crowd can see their way to help those who need help.

There's no timetable for education and learning. What an idea. I doubt you could find very many truly professional, experienced educators who would agree with that. If that was true, then we could just start children at the age of nine and graduate them at the age of fifteen. I used to tell my teachers that the most valuable asset we had was time. It was the one thing that we could not get more of. If you really think there is no timetable, then you have been out of the business for far, far too long.

And once again there is the never ending call for just sending out money we don't have. If it's that simple, why don't we just mail out a check for 5 grand every year to every adult American? For that matter, why not 10K? Here we are, nearly 30 tril in debt, and still making calls to go even deeper.

I doubt you could find very many truly professional, experienced educators who would agree with that. If that was true, then we could just start children at the age of nine and graduate them at the age of fifteen. I used to tell my teachers that the most valuable asset we had was time. It was the one thing that we could not get more of.

In a time of national crisis brought on by a pandemic, I think WG's comment is accurate. She's not talking about starting at nine and finishing at fifteen.

In a time of national crisis brought on by a pandemic, I think WG's comment is accurate. She's not talking about starting at nine and finishing at fifteen.
JL's a literalist.

But that's a logical conclusion from her statement. If time is not important, then why wouldn't we just shorten the time kids are in school? A kid who is out for a year not only misses that year's benefits, but also slides backwards in his/her existing knowledge base. It's not a matter of simply not going forward, but of actually going backwards. Online learning can be effective for some kids, but younger students and less than highly motivated and capable older students do not do well, and that's assuming a parent is at home to make sure it all gets done.

Standards in our state have become so rigorous that teachers are constantly in high gear trying to get it all done. Many schools were already significantly behind. To simply stay home and say, "Oh well. We're not into timetables," is not an option at all that anyone wants. It's a lousy idea.

Standards in our state have become so rigorous that teachers are constantly in high gear trying to get it all done. Many schools were already significantly behind.
And I see over-50-year-old people here and on other sites who consistently misspell the same words, misuse apostrophes (e.g., use them in plural nouns and verbs), confuse your/you're and it's/its (not to mention there/their/they're), and put a space after a sentence and before the punctuation mark, so I wonder about education standards even years ago.

Jimmy's grandma was in good health and lively until she caught her grandson's coronavirus. After coughing endlessly and trying to breathe, she died a week later. At the family's Thanksgiving get-together, Jimmy passed the virus to a couple of aunts and cousins. Three weeks later Jimmy's dad died of the virus. anecdotal sob stories are great proof . Why is it that when Jimmy goes to Catholic School he is not bringing home the virus. How is it that Europe can have a more draconian lock down than proposed here and still their schools remain open . The AFT presents no negative evidence . They just arm twisted Sandinistas Bill to go along with artificial measures. . They gave a 3% threshold for the communities when in fact the schools reported rates were almost non-exitance . So NO Jimmy did not bring it home.

And I see over-50-year-old people here and on other sites who consistently misspell the same words, misuse apostrophes (e.g., use them in plural nouns and verbs), confuse your/you're and it's/its (not to mention there/their/they're), and put a space after a sentence and before the punctuation mark, so I wonder about education standards even years ago.You have made similar mistakes in grammar, so should we wonder about your standards? And if some people have not received a solid education, then is pulling them out of school for a year a plausible solution?

You have made similar mistakes in grammar, so should we wonder about your standards?
Always the putdown.

I'm am one of those over 50. I always proofread my responses but, even then, miss an occasional mistake. Fb messaging is horrible to proofread, what with autocorrect out-thinking me.

And if some people have not received a solid education, then is pulling them out of school for a year a plausible solution?
Otherwise, they and/or people they are in contact with will get very sick or die. Miss a year of school or someone close to you dies. Pick one.

You talk about learning being important, but someone hasn't learned the basic concepts, that distancing and hygiene is what beats CV19 and that means many things; firstly, you are not free to infect others and that means freedom of movement must be curtailed, particularly in hotspots of infection. With the large number of community infestations everyone must be considered a suspect carrier and guilty until proven innocent. Asymptomatic children are a risk and as many teachers are in the risk categories concern must be given to vulnerability so online learning becomes an option

Children will not be damaged by a period of home schooling and non school going. They will be damaged if their teachers die or their parents die

um I'm talking about the bluest of blue states in the bluest of blue cities where Sandinista Bill and il duce Cuomo have run roughshod on rights and brags about it .


Children will not be damaged by a period of home schooling and non school going. They will be damaged if their teachers die or their parents die study after study on the negative impacts on children tell a different tale.

Adverse consequences of school closures (unesco.org) (https://en.unesco.org/covid19/educationresponse/consequences)

Pediatric Group Calls for Children to Return to Schools Despite Coronavirus | Education News | US News (https://www.usnews.com/news/education-news/articles/2020-06-29/pediatric-group-calls-for-children-to-return-to-schools-despite-coronavirus)

Why A.A.P. Guidelines Are Pushing for Schools to Reopen This Fall - The New York Times (nytimes.com) (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/30/us/coronavirus-schools-reopening-guidelines-aap.html)

Why A.A.P. Guidelines Are Pushing for Schools to Reopen This Fall - The New York Times (nytimes.com) (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/30/us/coronavirus-schools-reopening-guidelines-aap.html)


I see you cite the NYSlimes when it suits you.

I'm am one of those over 50.Uhm...well, never mind.

Dismiss school and put education at risk or have school and put lives at risk. Tough decisions. I can understand why some would dismiss school, but it's silly to pretend that it will not have negative consequences.

Dismiss school and put education at risk or have school and put lives at risk. Tough decisions. I can understand why some would dismiss school, but it's silly to pretend that it will not have negative consequences.
Such as -- compared to spreading illness and causing death?

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/custom/vgo/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by tomder55 https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/custom/vgo/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?p=3861021#post3861021)
Why A.A.P. Guidelines Are Pushing for Schools to Reopen This Fall - The New York Times (nytimes.com) (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/30/us/coronavirus-schools-reopening-guidelines-aap.html)




I see you cite the NYSlimes when it suits you.

That is correct ;as rare as that is .

Here is another one

Europe’s Locked Down, but Schools Are Open - The New York Times (nytimes.com) (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/30/us/europes-locked-down-but-schools-are-open.html)

the continent’s leaders have largely adopted the advice of experts who contend that the public health risks of keeping children in school are outweighed by educational and social benefits, reports our colleague Melissa Eddy, a correspondent based in Berlin.
“We cannot and will not allow our children and young people’s futures to be another victim of this disease,” said Micheal Martin, the Irish prime minister, in a national address. “They need their education.”

Such as -- compared to spreading illness and causing death?These protests sound rather hollow coming from a person who has no problem with 900 thousand unborn children a year put to death in abortion.

These protests sound rather hollow coming from a person who has no problem with 900 thousand unborn children a year put to death in abortion.
This coming from the guy who cheered Trump for caging babies and children at the southern border after they had been irrevocably separated from parents/family members.

who cheered Trump for caging babies and children at the southern border after they had been irrevocably separated from parents/family members.That is a complete and total falsehood unlike your support of abortion.

That is a complete and total falsehood unlike your support of abortion.
I've never stated my thinking on abortion except that having one or not should be a decision made by a woman and her doctor.

These protests sound rather hollow coming from a person who has no problem with 900 thousand unborn children a year put to death in abortion.

why don't you give it a rest, we have been all over that

What possible topic is there that has not been discussed a hundred times already? Besides, this anti-Trump rhetoric cloaked in a supposed concern for life needs to be pointed out. You don't stand up for the unborn, so it falls on me to do and you to complain about it.

We need new names for them that reflect their decisions to ruin the lives of children by forcing cities to shut down schools when everyday precautions that everyone else in the country is told to do to prevent covid infection could and should be exercised

We need to face the fact that our best practice is not 100% effective. It's just all we got! We can cut down the risks and rates of infections, but can't stop it. To pretend otherwise is foolish. It only takes one case to start a spread, and destroy a family, or community.


;and for their support for systemic racist policies that deny children's parents education choice. Maybe Antikid ?

Not all parents have that choice and no one has addressed the ones that don't which could be considered just as racists.


The UFT is proving it'sef to be the enemy of NYC parents .They have put their narrow ­interests over the best interests of children.They are holding NYC to ridiculously narrow standards . Now Quid's lead candidate for Sec Education is AFT Pres Randi Weingarten . She is a disaster .

I realize your post is heavily local, but not uncommon everywhere, but must admit the low infection rates in NY are pretty low compared to almost anywhere else so something is working right but we can debate the interests of teachers unions and the way teachers are treated historically.

Joe's SEC of ED can't be any worse than Devos, even Weingarten.

Not all parents have that choice and no one has addressed the ones that don't which could be considered just as racists.I don't know that I would call it racism, but the systemic denial of educational opportunity to lower income/inner city families needs to be addressed. Vouchers and private systems would be a good option.

Vouchers and private systems work for those that can get them on some level, but still leaves a bunch of kids behind. Maybe rethink how schools are funded would address some of those issues since local property taxes seem to be inadequate in economically challenged areas to fully provide for all the needs of the kids or teachers. This isn't a new discussion, but covid has exposed them and what's been done about them.

Vouchers and private systems work for those that can get them on some level, but still leaves a bunch of kids behindThat's kind of the whole point. Make them available to everyone who needs them. It costs no more money than we're spending now on public schools that don't work.


Maybe rethink how schools are funded would address some of those issues since local property taxes seem to be inadequate in economically challenged areas to fully provide for all the needs of the kids or teachers. Money is not the problem. The last school I worked in had buildings that were in bad shape and many shortcomings, and yet consistently was in the top 20% of schools for test scores in our state. It's not the money.

That's kind of the whole point. Make them available to everyone who needs them. It costs no more money than we're spending now on public schools that don't work.

Begs the question of why the public schools don't work.


Money is not the problem. The last school I worked in had buildings that were in bad shape and many shortcomings, and yet consistently was in the top 20% of schools for test scores in our state. It's not the money.

Then what is it?

Then what is it?It's a combination of a number of things. Children from single parent homes do not do as well on average as children from two parent homes. Kids from low income homes do not do as well. You combine those two, and you have a challenge. It is hard to recruit teachers and administrators to inner city schools because discipline is frequently not good. State testing systems also challenge inner city schools because a teacher can do a great job and work very hard, and yet have only moderate test score results, and that is discouraging.

In a private school, they have the ability to hold students to stricter standards.

And what about teacher education in colleges and universities? Are the teacher-ed students taught how to manage a classroom of 25-30 students, how to write lesson plans, how to discipline, how to show and encourage love and respect for one another?

Are the teacher-ed students taught how to manage a classroom of 25-30 students,Classes are typically not that large, but yes, as much as can be done in a college classroom, they are taught classroom management.

how to write lesson plans,That is taught to an extreme for sure.


how to discipline, how to show and encourage love and respect for one another?All of that seems to be "taught", but that's like trying to teach someone how to weld in a classroom. My experience was that either a teacher could do it or he/she couldn't. All the theory in the world tends to fall apart when a third grade student walks up and says, "Get out of my face you bitxh." In my school, that would be responded to VIGOROUSLY. In fact, it never happened in my 34 years, but in inner city schools now, it is not uncommon. Female teachers in particular will not stick around for that very long. When I was in school, the principal would have torn my rear end up if I had said that, and then my father would have finished the job at home. I would certainly not have said it a second time, assuming I was still alive.

These are the metrics I used in the process of evaluating our educational system.

https://www.insider.com/us-states-public-education-system-ranked-us-news-world-report-2019-4#18-south-dakota-33

https://pgui.com/charter-schools-vs-public-schools-key-differences/#:~:text=Charter%20schools%20are%20run%20like%20pr ivate%20schools%20and,as%20state%20and%20local%20g overnments%2C%20awards%2C%20and%20donations.

https://www.understood.org/en/school-learning/choosing-starting-school/finding-right-school/public-private-and-charter-schools-how-they-compare

https://www.understood.org/en/school-learning/choosing-starting-school/finding-right-school/choosing-a-school-know-the-options-for-your-child?_ul=1*8z3rd3*domain_userid*YW1wLTJqVmxYME5xW jBGRDFwUjd3NHVFeFE.

http://delphifl.org/private-vs-public-schools-how-the-curriculums-differ/

I will maintain that money IS an issue since services, and special needs are more important than a building per say. Maybe not in your school or county/city/state, but in others you bet. Single moms and their kids may have extra needs to be met, and can't be just written off as an excuse for failure.

A lot to individually evaluate with so many different approaches and attitudes.

I did not say that money was not AN issue. I said money was not the problem. There is plenty of money. Besides, results do not follow money. Washington D.C. spends an incredible amount of money per pupil but gets very little for it. I'm for giving parents the liberty to put their kids in private schools. We've tried the public route and it's time to try something else...freedom.

What do private schools have that public don't (or can't get)?

To begin with, it would not be a low performing school where your child is currently forced by government to attend. Beyond that, private schools are not burdened with many of the ridiculous regs public schools have to deal with. They invariably spend money more wisely than do public schools. Perhaps most important is the issue of buy in. When parents send their kids to private schools, even if with public money, they do so because they WANT their child at that school. So the student is sent in with some expectation of performance by the parent or parents. That is an enormous determining factor in school success.

Too many private schools are nowhere near a student's home/neighborhood, thus too often there's a major problem just physically getting to a private school.

If the market is there, the schools will start. Private enterprise. It's wonderful!

The market may be there but that market can't build and maintain a private school. Then what?

It works like this. Parents receive vouchers. They can take the voucher to a public school or a private school. It's the parent's choice. If there is not a private school, then it is safe to assume that there is no market there since parents are satisfied with the public school, and that's fine.

But the parents want to send their children to a private school, but only a disreputable, falling-apart public school is within a reasonable distance. Now what?

If you are looking for a perfect scenario, then you can't possibly support a public school only scenario. In Baltimore, for instance, there are a number of middle/high schools where not a single student scored proficient in math or language arts. That is not acceptable to me. It's time to try something else. If it is a less imperfect solution, then we are way ahead.

To begin with, it would not be a low performing school where your child is currently forced by government to attend. Beyond that, private schools are not burdened with many of the ridiculous regs public schools have to deal with. They invariably spend money more wisely than do public schools. Perhaps most important is the issue of buy in. When parents send their kids to private schools, even if with public money, they do so because they WANT their child at that school. So the student is sent in with some expectation of performance by the parent or parents. That is an enormous determining factor in school success.

The state and feds as well as local governments regulate schools.

https://www.findlaw.com/education/education-options/public-school.html

You can elaborate on burdensome regs if you like, but I also found these interesting articles to consider.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikemcshane/2019/08/13/the-future-of-private-schools/?sh=231ffa5a629c

https://www.publicschoolreview.com/blog/new-study-confirms-that-private-schools-are-no-better-than-public-schools#:~:text=%20Each%20private%20school%20is%20 different%2C%20but%20here,student%20performance%20 on%20academic%20achievement%20tests...%20More%20

Describe it as you will, for those of us who care about kids in the inner cities, something needs to be done. More regs and more money are not the answer. If they were, then Washington D.C. would be a model district. They are, in fact, terrible.